/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23872140]

is there any fantasy lit out there that comes even remotely close to matching Tolkien in sheer depth and originality? i am not big into fantasy as i see it as a genre made to broadly appeal to uncouth and insipid nerds of the generic and tasteless DnD oriented types or the gamer types. i hear people say "Book of the New Sun" by Gene Wolf and "Terra Ignota" by Ada Palmer is the best shit ever, but they seem to lean heavily into a more sci-fi-esque territory (although there is a relation/overlap, of course). I'm basically asking what you believe is the peak of fantasy besides Tolkien that's worth checking out

[Anonymous No.23872148]

>>23872140
>Lewis Carroll
>Jorge Luis Borges
>Mervyn Peake
>Ursula Le Guin
>Philip Pullman
>Maybe C. S. Lewis

[Anonymous No.23872217]

>>23872140
>fantasy lit ... matching Tolkien
there is one man, who even transcends him for some on a personal level.

[Anonymous No.23872822]

>>23872140
Google Appendix N

[Anonymous No.23872836]

>>23872140
No. Clark Ashton Smith and Lord Dunsany can match him for originality, and depending on what you mean by "depth" he's matched by the average modern fantasy doorstopper author, but nobody matches him on both.

[Anonymous No.23872862]

>>23872836
I refuse to count door stoppers. Any asshole can flesh out a world when you stop to pad out your book with at least 50 percent history explanations and magic manuals. Tolkien did everything these hacks do in less time their their first volume.

[Anonymous No.23873071]

>>23872862
This. I fucking hate worldbuilding obsessed authors
>MUH TAX REFORM
>SEWAGE SYSTEMS
>TECTONIC PLATES
>MY CONLANG MAKES SENSE AKSHUALLY
>I <3 ASIAN CULTURE!!! THE CASTLE IS A PAGODA AND THE MC IS A SAMURAI!
>THE GODS ARE BIG STINKY MEANIE-HEADS!

I could strangle every last one of them.

[Anonymous No.23873083]

>tolkien
>sheer depth and originality
It's literally just Asatru's cosmology, Finnish and Celtic mythologies, European history, Zoroastrian soteriology, and Catholic harmatiology thrown into a blender. The entire point of Tolkien is that he's not original in the slightest, he mashed a bunch of stuff together and sanded all of the rough edges down. That's the entire point of "Fantasy" as a genre, and fundamentally it's what people like about Fantasy: it's all of the tropes and structures that they like and understand smoothed over to be understandable with zero actual thought while also not challenging the consumer in the slightest.

[Anonymous No.23873088]

>>23873071
>well any of this be important to the story
>no
>then why are you telling us.
Really wish people would just let things that don't matter stay abstract. I don't know what it is about this generation that get so mired in superfluous details but completely miss the actual point and not understand the story or character arcs.

[Anonymous No.23873102]

>>23873088
>I don't know what it is about this generation that get so mired in superfluous details but completely miss the actual point and not understand the story or character arcs.
It's a low hanging fruit, any retard can scrutinize factual matters like that because they are as they seem and they don't have any depth, it takes no intelligence to ask "what do they eat?", but it takes a little bit of intelligence to go into the deeper themes or even just the aesthetics of a story. Same reason why every retard repeats "show don't tell", it's easy to understand and provides an handy tool to not think while pretending you do.

[Anonymous No.23873433]

>>23872140
wolfe

[Anonymous No.23874092]

>>23873083
>it's all of the tropes and structures that they like and understand smoothed over to be understandable
but if they understand it, why does it have to be made understandable?

[Anonymous No.23874122]

>>23873083
>he's not original he was just the first guy to delve into all of these totally disparate traditions and turn them into a compelling work of fiction
that's original though
>not challenging the reader in the slightest
how come there are so many retards who don't get it though

[Anonymous No.23874145]

>>23873083
>>23873083
>ideas thrown into a blender
That's literally every idea ever. I legitimately don't think it's possible to make "new" stuff. Even if you get high on DMT to get alien ideas most people report roughly the same experiences.

[Anonymous No.23874163]

>>23872140
It depends on what you mean. If you're also including Tolkien's autistic worldbuilding into your metric then I don't think he will be matched for a very long time, considering it is now considered cliche to worldbuild thanks to him.

In terms of a good overall story, I would say Lloyd Alexander and Mervyn Peake reach his quality, for sure. I also honestly think Pullman could have made something very unique and special had he cut off the self insert fedora essays from his books. His Dark Materials has such a unique blend of whimsical, dark and weird mythology it quickly became one of my favoritesvy.

[Anonymous No.23874499]

>>23874092
>>23874122
The parts are understood, but mashing them together results in sharp corners and rough edges. Like, you can't combined Catholicism, Asatru, and Zoroastrianism without running into fundamental philosophical and theological problems. This challenges the reader and ultimately exhorts them to change how they live. People don't want that, they want to be assured that their coward's go-along-to-get-along attitude is just fine. So, it's sanded down to not challenege them.

[Anonymous No.23874515]

>>23873433
This.
Gene Wolfe's Book of The New Sun and Urth of The New Sun

[Anonymous No.23874521]

>>23874499
so you're one of the retards who don't get it huh

[Anonymous No.23875882]

>>23873071

[Anonymous No.23875890]

>>23875882
BASED

[Anonymous No.23876708]

>>23874499
>you can't combined Catholicism, Asatru, and Zoroastrianism
Good thing that's not what he was trying to do. It's all catholic.

[Anonymous No.23876714]

>>23875882
How come the last episode of GOT didn't explain Bran's tax policy?

[Anonymous No.23876849]

>>23875882
Why does everyone take this quote literally? The implicit meaning of this answer by George is clearly "If you only define objective truths for your characters, the plausibility of your world suffers", which is true and one reason why I could never ever stand Tolkien. The other reason is that Lord of The Rings is actually boring as fuck as a text and as a world.

[Anonymous No.23876989]

>>23876849
The chief concern of LoTR is legendry, not peculiarity you stupid nonce.

[Anonymous No.23876997]

>>23872862
>>23873071
This. Worldbuilding is objectively worthless on its own as there are countless worldbuilding wikis that are almost entirely unread. All that matters is the story which takes place in the world.

Moorcock's Elric is good at this. Broad strokes of background flavor with a speedy plot. It is simple and plainly written and an easy read.

[Anonymous No.23877003]

>>23874499
let me guess, you're a marxist?
>we're gona endlessly "challenge you which will totally make you a communist revolutionary and not just overwhelm you to the point of suicide or homelessness
fuck off

[Anonymous No.23877022]

>>23875882
This is how a jew thinks. He can not fathom a man who is just and wise, like Bismarck or Frederick the Great. When he does see a great man, the jew jabs and undermines the great man at every opportunity, the jew attacks and snipes with all manner of distractions and meaningless shit until the great man trips and falls, at whicu point the jew leaps up proclaiming his unworthiness in all the jew owned press.

[Anonymous No.23877027]

>>23873071
>>23875882
>>23876714
>>23876849
>>23877022
A fair take on the issue imo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0qmbEbe4So

[Anonymous No.23877055]

40k
>um just just orks and elves but in space
Yeah no shit. Tolkien didn't invent orcs and elves either, he gave classic myths and archetypes interesting trappings and settings

[Anonymous No.23877066]

>>23876708
He expliciltly states it was not, while he was a devout Catholic and a pious man. He did not work to insert Christian theology in to his work, an argument could be made that his dear friend C.S Lewis (Anglican) inserted his faith, but Tolkien did not, any resemblence is superficial.

He drew heavily on the pagan and old Norse, which is evident to anybody. Except you, you dumb fucking, hand-clapping American anti-Christian.

[Anonymous No.23877067]

>>23876849
I'm pretty sure there are a Tolkien fanboy or three (or a former Martin fan mindbroken by lack of new books) who are absolutely obsessed with that quote for some reason and have spent the better part of a decade spamming it on this board. It's also quite out of context, since when I looked up the original interview it was from, Martin kept gushing about Tolkien for quite a bit before this quote and said they shouldn't be compared because they have entirely different approaches before relenting as the interviewer pleaded as well as a host of the exact same things people tend to shit on him for not seeing by having the gall to compare himself to Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.23877084]

>>23872140
>Tolkien
>original
lmao just admit that you're hardstuck with the first fantasy novel you read.

[Anonymous No.23877093]

>>23877067
>when I looked up the original interview it was from, Martin kept gushing about Tolkien for quite a bit before this quote
Everything before the "but" is moot.

[Anonymous No.23878021]

>>23877066
>He expliciltly states it was not
Where, please? I'm willing to admit if I'm wrong.

>He drew heavily on the pagan and old Norse
For some aspects of the setting, but not for any message. It's Christian through and through.

There are no multiple/pagan gods, all the emotions and values are Christian, and even the very day of the year the ring was destroyed was a reference to Jesus' crucifixion.

>you anti-christian
Far from it.

[Anonymous No.23879151]

>>23872140
There isn't much modern fantasy worth reading, as such most of my recommendations will be guys who died in the previous century or two. Tolkien wrote the stories that he wanted to read. The only sure cure to a lack of Tolkien, is just reading more Tolkien.
I've heard good things about Lord Dunsany and William Morris but have yet to read them. Lord Dunsany was a favorite of the Big Three of Weird Tales(HPL, REH, CAS) and of Tolkien. William Morris' The House of the Wolfings and The Roots of the Mountains were major inspirations of Tolkien.
C.S. Lewis: He is often derided for his works being heavily handed with their overt Christian messaging, and as such are usually an acquired taste best found when a child. However you will find few better mediators of Christianity the fantastic and modernity than Lewis.
GRR Martin: He is a decent enough writer, but his personal views and lack of discipline mean his primary work has lost the plot and isn't worth much. I expect aSoIaF to be completely reworked and finished by another author after his death. I would still recommend his Dunk and Egg short stories though.
Robert E. Howard: The foundation and summit of sword and sorcery. His tales of Conan the Barbarian and the puritan swashbuckler Solomon Kane are still worth reading almost a hundred years on. As an aside, I've always heard good things about another of the Lovecraft Circle, Clark Ashton Smith, however I've never read his works.

[Anonymous No.23879285]

>>23872140
E.R. Eddison was a contemporary and friend of Tolkien, and his books are incredible, and very different from Tolkien's. His best known is The Worm Ouroboros, and that one is definitely worth reading, but I think pic related is even better. Probably the best ending to a book I've ever read.

Also Mervyn Peake, as others have mentioned.

[Anonymous No.23881250]

>>23872140
The second apocalypse series has some interesting original ideas

[Anonymous No.23881255]

>>23872140
what are some fantasy novels that are not bing bing wahoo-tier? I'm looking to read some enjoyable shit that deals with "deeper" themes and complex characters, basically not Sanderson. Is the "First Law" series any good?

[Anonymous No.23881261]

C.S. Lewis, George MacDonald, William Morris, some others are kinda-sorta similar but nobody since Tolkien is as deep as Tolkien. I think Tolkien just perfectly bookmarks the close of a certain chapter in Western literature, after which that sort of thing is not likely to be made. I mean, you’ve got about a decade before the Second World War and post-War with its subsequent subordination to the mass market and lack of interest in roots and scholarship ruins fantasy fiction. If there’s authors like Tolkien they probably came before him or were his contemporaries.

[Anonymous No.23881346]

>>23872140
This opinion is about to get shit on, but Robert Jordan.
Drawing from myth, history and creativity he creates a cohesive and interesting world that explores male/female power dynamics, the nature of evil and free and a myriad of other topics.

[Anonymous No.23881415]

>>23876997
>I think of myself as a bad writer with big ideas, but I'd rather be that than a big writer with bad ideas - Moorcock
Elric had so many good and culturally impactful ideas it's unreal

[Anonymous No.23881767]

Bakker is King

[Anonymous No.23881772]

>>23879285
i will take your reccs anon

[Anonymous No.23881786]

this is a great trilogy.

[Anonymous No.23882393]

>>23873083
>It's literally just Asatru's cosmology, Finnish and Celtic mythologies, European history, Zoroastrian soteriology, and Catholic harmatiology thrown into a blender.
I thought it was about hobbits

[Anonymous No.23882577]

>>23881255
Blood song?
Good prose, enjoyable story, okayish theme, but dont read the rest of the series
First law is also good, read the first trilogy and never continues

[Anonymous No.23882702]

>>23872140
>i am not big into fantasy as i see it as a genre made to broadly appeal to uncouth and insipid nerds of the generic and tasteless DnD oriented types or the gamer types.
Not going to answer because your question because you're a pseud

[Anonymous No.23882723]

John Norman mocks Tolkien in both longevity and number of works released.

[Anonymous No.23882767]

>>23873083
wall of cope.
if he was so unoriginal why didnt anyone else make many languages and combine all thosenfolk stories to mythologize britain?

[Anonymous No.23882988]

>>23877022
>tortures his son to death for no reason
>wise and just

[Anonymous No.23883005]

>>23882723

[Anonymous No.23883132]

>>23883005
Rent free