/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23730762]

Why is fantasy so lowbrow compared to other genres?
After a century, the only fantasy work that can hold its ground as proper literature is The Lord of the Rings.
How come there hasn't been anything else with that quality's level since then?

[Anonymous No.23730775]

Good fantasy books usually don't have orcs, goblins and elves

[Anonymous No.23730805]

>>23730762
its hard to glean universal truths from universes where any or most problems can be solved with magic, and most fantastical races consist of a few stereotypes. This isn't saying orcs are a stand in for niggers, but its very easy to write that so most authors just lazily make them that.

[Anonymous No.23730816]

>>23730805
>can be solved with magic
lmao you haven't read lotr have you? evil can not be solved by magic, even after the end, evil still exists as a part of the world, you faggots are so shallows when it comes to talking about lotr i wonder how you don't feel ashamed

[Anonymous No.23730818]

>>23730762
Manchildren obsessed with churning out shitty LotR knockoffs ruined it.

[Anonymous No.23730830]

>>23730762
Lowbrow literature is what I'd associate with just pure escapism. Spectacle for the sake of it. Higher works of arts generally serve as a mirror to society but if Globrak the shaman from the land of elk folk is trying to slay the evil pixie dragon Moratona I've already checked out before I could discern anything deeper than some fag casting spells.

[Anonymous No.23730846]

>>23730762
I think if the fantasy genre had more tolkiens, more writers with good prose who try to revive ancient mythological traditions and breathe new life into them, rather than people who just keep making a pastiche of tolkien's world, then the fantasy genre would be more respected.
The way so many authors pull shit directly out of LOTR without any thought or care just to use as a familiar backdrop while they tell their own middling story is like the literary equivalent of a kid playing with action figures his parents bought him. They're discrete, conspicuous characters from an IP the kid didn't create, and which the kid is now using to tell some inane story to himself, usually that the good guys shoot and kill all the bad guys and win the day. At least kids have the decency not to publish that shit, though.

[Anonymous No.23730855]

You didn't read Tolkien.
You don't read fantasy.
You don't read.

[Anonymous No.23730874]

>>23730762
>Why is fantasy so lowbrow compared to other genres?
Because capitalism. Also Ursula K. Leguin and even Terry Pratchett to some extent are very good literature, not in any way less "proper literature" compared to Tolkien.

[Anonymous No.23730888]

>>23730874
I give you Le Guin, but Pratchett? LOL

[Anonymous No.23730976]

I heard good things about Malazan Book of the Fallen. Is it still lowbrow fiction?

[Anonymous No.23731022]

Hey, OP and anyone else willing to give a faggot the time of day, I’ve been having arguments with my friends about the Fantasy Genre and the Writing world in general such as what is good in the current year.

What do you all like in Fantasy?

Magic Systems?

Relationships and to a greater extent, sex or fanservice or anything provocative? There has been a huge debate between GRRM fans and LOTR fans about this, granted GRRM is a gooning goblin but…yeah

Is historical inspiration gay or based? I know it’s how it’s handled as well, not beating people over the head.

[Anonymous No.23731030]

>>23730762
>After a century, the only fantasy work that can hold its ground as proper literature is The Lord of the Rings.
Why are you talking nonsense?

[Anonymous No.23731035]

>>23730762
>How come there hasn't been anything else with that quality's level since then?
Because quality is subjective.

[Anonymous No.23731050]

>>23730888
his books are genuinely funny with very endearing characters. What does LOTR got going for itself to be considered such an undeniable classic?

[Anonymous No.23731061]

>>23730888
philisteine

[Anonymous No.23731074]

Hey, OP and anyone else willing to give a faggot the time of day, I’ve been having arguments with my friends about the Fantasy Genre and the Writing world in general such as what is good in the current year.

What do you all like in Fantasy?

Magic Systems?

Relationships and to a greater extent, sex or fanservice or anything provocative? There has been a huge debate between GRRM fans and LOTR fans about this, granted GRRM is a gooning goblin but…yeah

Is historical inspiration gay or based? I know it’s how it’s handled as well, not beating people over the head.

[Anonymous No.23731079]

>>23731022
>>23731074
retard

[Anonymous No.23731081]

>>23731061
>philisteine
>about fantasy
what a deluded pseud you must be.

[Anonymous No.23731087]

>>23731074
>Magic Systems?
>Relationships and to a greater extent, sex or fanservice or anything provocative?

Fuck no. Immediate red flags.

[Anonymous No.23731096]

Why does it take so long for fish to spawn?

[Anonymous No.23731107]

>>23730762
tolkien's fantasy comes from a deep love and familiarity with the history of mythical peoples and places. But it's just not enough to read an english translation of the mabinogion or whatever, you really need to have a scholarly understanding otherwise you'll miss 90% of the cultural context.

[Anonymous No.23731109]

>>23731107
killyourself
I bet you haven't read a proper book in your stupid life.

[Anonymous No.23731112]

>>23731109
I've read an english translation of the mabinogion and 90% of the cultural context went over my head
it was mostly just nonsense

[Anonymous No.23731123]

>>23731087
Why so?

[Anonymous No.23731129]

People are autistically specific about what they consider fantasy, which leaves you in a ghetto of genre-slop. that's only really trying to imitate Tolkien in a shallow fashion. That's the thing.

I would fully consider Dune and Book of the New Sun to be fantasy novels, for starters. People would argue they're science-fiction, but I wouldn't say so. A true SF novel is a tangible vision of the near future. When you craft an entire world, with no real relation to our own, that's fantasy writing.

[Anonymous No.23731147]

One could go as far as to say the Star Trek universe is a great exercise in fantasy writing.
When you get down to it, science is magic, Klingons are Dwarves, and Vulcans are Elves. This isn't "real" science fiction. There's no serious attempt to approach the idea of what humans travelling in space, and encountering alien species might look like.
You basically have an order of Knights, on a grail quest. That's what every Star Trek show is.

[Anonymous No.23731212]

>>23730762
There was plenty early in the 20th century. The guy who wrote pic related was a close associate of C.S. Lewis and Tolkien. The plot is about an esoteric group messing around and causing Platonic forms to end up roaming around the English countryside causing all sorts of mayhem. One main character is a PhD studying Pythagorean influences on Abelard and is named after the woman who St. Paul converted with Dionysus of Pseudo Dionysus/St. Denys fame, which gives you a bit of the flavor of thought involved.

Then in that same period you had Borges. C.S. Lewis too. Out of the Silent Planet plays off Seneca's Platonic telling of Scipio's Dream and Calcidius' commentary on it. Narnia even has some explicit references to Plato and platonism, although it is for children.

[Anonymous No.23731222]

>>23731074
>Magic Systems?
actual autism trap. Magic system is an oxymoron. Anyone who creates a story around a magical system builds a dumb contradiction into the foundation of their universe.
>Relationships
yes, platonic and romantic
>sex or fanservice or anything provocative?
fanservice is fine. Sex is usually just awkward wish fulfillment. Not that fanservice isn't, but having your self-insert OC fuck or get fucked is on a completely different level from having a busty bar wench flash some cleavage at the protag.
>Is historical inspiration gay or based?
historical inspiration to the extent that the author is a student of history and mythology and takes inspiration from countless amazing and terrifying things throughout time, absolutely, yes, this is based. Fantasy worlds for me are about potential. A closed, generic fantasy world doesn't inspire me. You have to make the world feel gigantic, and you do that by filling it with many diverse things, and to write about diverse things, you need to know about diverse things. Historical inspiration is one source of that diversity, and a particularly potent one at that.
Historical inspiration that's completely superficial (e.g. generic tolkien fantasy but everyone has gaelic-sounding names) or centered around one particular event (The Battle of Tours but the not!Franks ride dragons and the not!muslims have wizards) is shit

[Anonymous No.23731287]

>>23730855
This

[Anonymous No.23731314]

>>23731212
>The plot is about an esoteric group messing around and causing Platonic forms to end up roaming around the English countryside causing all sorts of mayhem. One main character is a PhD studying Pythagorean influences on Abelard and is named after the woman who St. Paul converted with Dionysus of Pseudo Dionysus/St. Denys fame, which gives you a bit of the flavor of thought involved.
this sounds dreadful in every sense.

[Anonymous No.23731335]

>>23730762
magical realism is a fantasy sub-genre

[Anonymous No.23731360]

Evolved from fairy tales to expository narratives for pornographic imaginations. SciFi is the same drivel. Trash that lost relevance after Star Wars and the 80s.

[Anonymous No.23731379]

>>23731360
I would argue the last meaningful SF movement was cyberpunk, and then it became irrelevant.
Course, cyberpunk kind of drifted back into weird mystical shit, the longer that genre went on. Eventually you get to the Matrix, which is as much a Biblical allegory as it is a cyberpunk story.
On the sidelines you have the whole "magic punk" comics explosion with things like The Invisibles, and John Constantine, and there's kind of some connective tissue there.

[Anonymous No.23731596]

>>23731222
>Magic System:

It’s more of an excuse for actual magic and has ties to…well…WooWoo shit in our world. The story isn’t exactly built around it because of the major theme I’ve decided upon. So as long as it isn’t just built around it that’s fine yeah?

>Sex

My favorite sex scene and probably the only tasteful one I’ve ever seen was done in Berserk and I’d like a feel similar to that but in the inverse sort of as in instead of the Love coming from shared trauma or trials the love springs from Triumph and Trials in the story. I know Guts getting over his own trauma is a triumph itself but I doubt I can swing it for my story.

A Maxim I’ve seen is Foreplay and Aftercare can tell a story since sex is sort of one dimensional. So I don’t do any cringe just walking through the sex scene but like my scenario so far is the MC has just lost his way home, the woman he has is trying to comfort him and it reveals a bit of his nature during this exchange. He essentially eats her out and then kisses her and she grimaces at her own taste and the MC finds it a bit amusing since he loves her taste, so he is a little cruel. I think it’s tame but there enough take something away from his mindset and it’s a common enough occurrence for people to kiss after oral.

>History

My biggest arguments have come from what was once viewed as acceptable in the past and now is not, so the contemporary audience thing. I’m not dumb enough to paint rape in a positive light but conquest and land acquisition is apparently too much for people?

My knowledge extends back to the Pre-Greek era and one of my antagonists groups is analogous with the French Revolution which many don’t know were insane as they wanted to reset the years again. That gets a pass from people, a major component of Western Values I’m technically mocking yet no one bats an a
eye so people aren’t consistent I guess?

[Anonymous No.23731613]

>>23731596
The part where Guts thinks of BBC mid fuck and strangles Casca kind of ruins it.

[Anonymous No.23731670]

>>23731596
>It’s more of an excuse for actual magic
it's not, mythological magic is defined by being arbitrary, the exact opposite of systematic. The nature of magic conforms to the narrative and bolsters it, and that's what makes it interesting in the first place. If it were just a system with rules, then it would be knowable and mundane.
>My biggest arguments have come from what was once viewed as acceptable in the past and now is not, so the contemporary audience thing.
if people are uncomfortable about something you're depicting, it's probably because they see some authorial intent behind what you're writing.
There are some schizos who will take offense to anything, but most readers will accept depictions of bad things if they are presented neutrally.

[Anonymous No.23731684]

>>23731074
Fantasy and scifi allow for explorations of the human condition abstracted away from the historical contingencies and contexts of reality. It allows the author to simply make up the conditions that allow for the story and just tell the story. The problem with this is that, of course, I the reader am not contextless, and even if I abstract myself from my context I'm still influenced by it. I only know English and Spanish so I can only read things in those languages, for example.

Tolkien contains within his works a seed of this as in order to actually enjoy the English language he has to create this huge fictional world with its own metaphysics and alternate religious cosmology because, simply put, at the time English was a peasant language and everyone was supposed to suck French's dick. In order to enjoy English he had to create his own world. Thus, the utility of fantasy is demonstrated as nobody would have read Tolkien if he'd just translated the Eddas, the Kalevala, the Green Knight, Beowulf, etc into modern poetic English because, by definition, English cannot be a language of poetry as poetry is something that can only be done in French or according to French norms.

[Anonymous No.23731729]

>>23731670

>The nature of magic conforms to the narrative and bolsters it, and that's what makes it interesting in the first place.

Easy enough to fix.

>There are some schizos who will take offense to anything, but most readers will accept depictions of bad things if they are presented neutrally.

You are right but given the amount of crazies and some stories I’ve read about Sensitivity Readers along with all the other shit that afflicting other entertainment I just think it could get worse. Then again, fuck’em.

[Anonymous No.23731750]

>>23730762
>hasn't read The Vorrh
>isn't aware of Alan Moore's upcoming fantasy novel
Are you even trying?

[Anonymous No.23731751]

>>23731613

>ruins it

I mean, yeah. I’ve talked to some people and did research and all the gay stuff and the term Verisimilitude comes up often but then you have the “Done Well Paradox”.

The example for my character I gave above could be seen as cringe but I wanted to do something realistic with the “Cunny Kiss” and things being implied from that. A theme for the story much like Berserk is the Jung aspects of the shadow which I don’t know how receptive people on here are to that, but it’s a mixed bag so might as well put it here. Essentially the MC is trying to be a good leader but ultimately he enjoys dominance to an extent which runs counter to a villain who is gifted the powers of a old god of domination.

What Guts went through is a sort of trauma I don’t want to write about and while it falls under the Verisimilitude umbrella as it does and did happen, I don’t want to be seen as a copy cat and I don’t want to deal with potential backlash and I probably couldn’t do it like they did.

[Anonymous No.23731754]

>>23731081
You're a pseud for undermining Discworld.

[Anonymous No.23731828]

>>23730762
The Witcher and A Song of Ice and Fire have already became fantasy classics, what are you talking about, retard?
Inb4: don't mention a dozen more of hidden gems because it's not the point.

[Anonymous No.23731880]

>>23731828
>The Witcher
Only the vidya will be remembered.

[Anonymous No.23731907]

>>23731880
Eh it's the same as when you say "The Lord of the Rings" and everybody thinks about the films.

[Anonymous No.23731949]

>>23731907
TLotR already had a grand legacy before the films were made, The Witcher didn't outside of Poland.

[Anonymous No.23731964]

>>23731828
>A Song of Ice and Fire
No one takes that shit seriously. ASOIAF is a mediocre fantasy book with le subversion and it becomes a trash book once you take it outside of the fantasy section. If the best fantasy has to offer is a book that is better as a video game or a book that is only know for being a tv show, that is enough to prove OP point.

[Anonymous No.23731986]

>>23731964
The only cool thing about ASoIaF is the POV switch structure, I'd like to see that in fantasy more often as long as the characters are actually good. Unfortunately ASoIaF's characters are either boring or become increasingly insufferable to read.

[Anonymous No.23731989]

>>23730762
Tolkien already knew of the concepts and themes he wanted to convey through his works, and moulded the world and lore to serve his needs.
Modern writers do the intricate world building and fantasy aspects first for the sake of 'writing within the genre', but have nothing interesting to say.
Another similar but more extreme example is Poe.
I doubt Poe ever even set out to write a story while already having picked a 'genre' (except maybe Dupin).
He knew what sort of story or message he wanted to get across and wrote it. Sometimes it developed into macabre/horror, sometimes science fiction, adventure, satire, fantasy etc.
Nowadays (and in fact for the past 60 years at least), it's the other way around.

[Anonymous No.23732179]

>>23731022
holy retard

[Anonymous No.23732220]

>>23730846
This. Tolkien is a fundamentally different kind of author from fantasy writers. If you read the other “classic” fantasy authors, they’re way more like the typical 1st person power-fantasy type of stories one sees generally.

It’s a serious attempt to write transcendent and timeless stories vs. powerfantasy escapism.

[Anonymous No.23732275]

It's because most are trying too hard to make fantasy instead of just literature

[Anonymous No.23732470]

>>23730846
Tolkien tried to subvert the traditions, not revive them.

[Anonymous No.23732488]

>>23732470
Not true.

[Anonymous No.23732505]

George MacDonald, Plunkett Lord Dunsany, Clark Ashton Smith, Gene Wolfe . . .

[Anonymous No.23732508]

>>23730874
I give you Pratchett, but Le Guin? Lawl
Rofflemow, even

[Anonymous No.23732516]

I found the LOTR movies enjoyable but the books very dull. I genuinely enjoy some contemporary fantasy

[Anonymous No.23732518]

>>23731129
Dune falls more into the Voyage to Arcturus and Perelandra bucket as a philosophical exercise; it is barely even classifiable as "fiction". Lord Dunsany's Pegana was also like this.

[Anonymous No.23732527]

>>23732516
Reddit is down the hall and two the left :^)

[Anonymous No.23732528]

>>23732516
>F tier LotR

[Anonymous No.23732538]

>>23732518
>Dune falls more into the Voyage to Arcturus and Perelandra bucket as a philosophical exercise; it is barely even classifiable as "fiction".
are you retarded? it's an adventure story about a teenager lost on an alien planet after his dad dies. having appendices about fake religions or whatever does not preclude it from being completely traditional fiction with a straightforward plot.

[Anonymous No.23732577]

>>23732470
he changed the, sure, but he didn't try to subvert anything. If LOTR was subversive of pagan germanic culture, then Gandalf, the obvious Odin analog, would be evil or incompetent. Or both.

[Anonymous No.23732799]

>>23730816
You are right. Sauron was defeated, but evil remains deep in our hearts. Something else always replaces the villain.

This reminds me of the french revolution when they killed the monarchy in hopes that things would improve. Alas, it was replaced by the bourgeoisie and later on by the capitalists. Some idiots think killing the capitalist would solve all our problems. They don't seem to understand that something else will replace it.

[Anonymous No.23732858]

>>23732577
>>23732488
The whole cosmology and ethical system is christian. Notice that none of the warriors in LOTR truly embody a pro-warrior spirit. Frodo is a hero because he's meek ffs.

[Anonymous No.23732889]

>>23730762
The Lord of the Rings does not hold up to the truly great works of literature in either depth or quality (it’s better than the sea of merely decent fiction that gets instantly forgotten though) and there are other fantasy books of similar quality. Most fantasy is trash for the same reason that other genres are like that, its focus is commercial production and it attracts unserious writers.
If you think Tolkien is the only good fantasy writer then you probably haven’t read much, and this is coming from someone who mostly hates genre-fiction.
>>23730874
Pratchett only gets there with a few of his books (small gods comes to mind), but le guin is a good choice before she went senile and the feminism cancer reached stage 4

[Anonymous No.23732893]

>>23732858
>Frodo is a hero because he's meek ffs.
and the hero of Grimnismal is an innocent young boy who is kind to strangers, and the villain, his father, is a tyrannical warlord who gets magically fucking impaled by Odin.

[Anonymous No.23732909]

>>23730762

It's for children. It used to be worrying if your escapist teenager hadn't moved past it and started dating girls, but now, grown adults obsess over it.

The world is getting fuller. Many, many people will be embarrassingly stupid. Many embarrassingly stupid things will be popular.

Rebuke the cultural gutters that will collect the failures of the world. Put down childish things before the eat your future.

[Anonymous No.23732929]

This book came out earlier this year. I powered through it in a little over a day. It comes pretty darn close to LOTR in its use of language.

[Anonymous No.23732992]

>>23731750
>isn't aware of Alan Moore's upcoming fantasy novel
????????????

[Anonymous No.23732995]

>>23732275
this is it. Tolkien was an autist but he respected and liked literature, so he did his autism and made it literature. Now it is all autism.

[Anonymous No.23733087]

>>23731750
>Alan Moore
more slop

[Anonymous No.23733110]

>>23732992
The Great When: A Long London Novel

>>23733087
Voice of the Fire and Jerusalem are one of the best novels in the last 25 years.

[Anonymous No.23733137]

>>23733110
lol, fantasysloorpers have no standards at all

[Anonymous No.23733199]

>>23732799
I'm pretty sure that people would argue that things did improve.

[Anonymous No.23733205]

>>23732889
I don't read fantasy at all. Who would you say are better than Tolkien or the greatest fantasy writers?

[Anonymous No.23733335]

>>23731074
>Magic Systems?
The worst thing ever invented in the genre. It's autistic mind rot that encourages creating lists of arbitrary rules based on video games at the expense of actually writing story, themes, characters, and so on. The justifications for it are asinine like "it prevents deus ex machinas". If someone is writing a historical novel, they don't need to write autistic rules about an imagined "combat system" based on Skyrim or D&D just to have a sword fight.
>waaa nooo that knight used a maneuver that hadn't been established before, you need to explain that he trained for exactly 14 months to get to level a higher parry skill before he uses it in a fight!
Just look at how ridiculous that sounds. Fuck magic systems.

[Anonymous No.23733554]

>>23730762
The riftwar saga fucks on lotr

[Anonymous No.23733734]

>>23732893
The boy upholds guest rite. That's very different from Frodo who seeks no power at all.

[Anonymous No.23733760]

>>23731022
>What do you all like in Fantasy?
Personally, it's that inner call to adventure. Nowadays, the call to adventure is within the confines of industrialism (starting a business, consooming, etc.), if there even is a call to adventure in the first place. So fantasy for the most part gives me that fix of going on a grand adventure where you're fighting for something and that desire to make an impact in the world. That applies to both stuff like the Odyssey or LOTR. Which is why I think usually dudes gravitate towards that type of story. We want to fight for something and slay fucking dragons in the process.

Fuck magic systems, btw.

[Anonymous No.23733843]

>>23730762
>After a century, the only fantasy work that can hold its ground as proper literature is The Lord of the Rings
Don't forget Also sprach Zarathustra.

[Anonymous No.23733864]

>>23730762
Nobody who writes fantasy believes it can teach us anything, or wants to live in it. Beyond tolkien itself.
Compare it to sci fi, tons of deep and thought provoking works. Lots to say about the future and plenty of people who want to live in it.

[Anonymous No.23733875]

>>23731074
Realism.
In order to have a good fantasy novel, you need to put something extraordinary (magic, for example). What this leads to is a necessity for characters to be realistic. If they don't then the running joke of "magic solved everything" will be true, and then the fantasy novel will be considered bad.
On the other hand, in a "realist" novel, set in the real world, everything is implied to be real. So you get characters like Sherlock Holmes, Raskolnikov, the count of monte cristo, who are all just symbolic representations of the trendiest philosophical position that's in vogue at the time when the novel was written.

[Anonymous No.23734429]

>>23733734
Sure, it's just to say that the hero of a norse story doesn't have to be a warrior who caves people's skulls in, like a blonde, bearded conan the barbarian.
Norse culture was not a monolith of axe-wielding berserkir. I would also point to characters like Baldar and Freyjr, more kind of effeminate and emotional characters than a Sigurthr the Volsung or Thor.
To say that LOTR is subversive of norse culture because the protagonist isn't an idealized ubermensch who slaughtered his way to Mt. Doom is itself a subversive mischaracterization of norse literature.

[Anonymous No.23734575]

Most of the world's most famous and highest regarded literature is fantasy. The illiad, beowulf, all superstition and myth, its all fantasy. Meets the definition 100%. If you say something retarded like "if fantasy is good and well written it doesn't count as fantasy" then you're not really asking a serious question.

[Anonymous No.23735362]

>>23734575
absolutely moronic

[Anonymous No.23735458]

My favorite part of LOTR was when Drizzt had two swords. Despite being ostracized by humans and elves he still maintained his chaotic good alignment.

[Anonymous No.23735545]

>>23730762
Because literary fiction is easier to write than genre fiction, no single fantasy world can be as fleshed out as real life history. Unless the author is willing to give the reader a full historical rundown pertaining to the entirety of that worlds history, you will never get the same level of world building as opposed to any historical fiction novel. For instance, I just read Shogun by James Clavell, and despite some on this board thinking that novel is pure adventure slop it still talks about Christian expansion into the "uncivilised" world, Catholicism/Protestantism, European colonialism, real life trade routes and charters, development of weapon and sea fairing technologies, Spanish/Portuguese domination over the sea, and Japanese history and civil strife.

Unless the author is willing to put as much effort into their story as Tolkien was, all you'll get is a generic fantasy story about
>medieval war against a demonic horde which would destroy the realm
>bullshit magic that is a convenient plot device
>the same magical races such as elves, dark elves, dwarves, orcs, etc.
>chosen one bullshit/prophecy nonsense

[Anonymous No.23735552]

>>23730846
/thread desu. Tolkien was a genius but his domination of the genre is just poison to any kind of creativity at this point.

>>23730888
Agreed, LeGuin is great and not as derivative as Tolkien as most others. Others worth checking out includes Mervyn Peake who is woefully under-appreciated.

[Anonymous No.23735587]

>>23734575
Not to start a stupid religion argument but arguably large parts of the Bible.

[Anonymous No.23735641]

>>23735458
kek

[Anonymous No.23735660]

>>23735641
You laugh now but it's only a matter of time before they start doing franchise cross-overs as everything becomes even more corporate, gay, and degenerate. Really looking forward to the LOTR-Star Wars crossover movies with an surprise cameo by Harry Potter at the end.

[Anonymous No.23735676]

>>23730775
They *must* have maps.

[Anonymous No.23735686]

>>23730762
The Buried Giant by Kazuo Ishiguro is proper literature and also definitely fantasy. Its a relatively short book though rather than the multi book epics that fantasy writers usually go for. Ishiguro won the Nobel prize in 2017. Probably it makes a big difference that he isn't a fantasy writer but rather an acclaimed writer who happened to write a fantasy book.

[Anonymous No.23735701]

>>23733205
>Who would you say are better than Tolkien

[Anonymous No.23735708]

>>23735701
He's barely a better fantasy writer than JK Rowling, kek, at least she can write an ending.

[Anonymous No.23735715]

>>23734575
The big brained interpretation is to realise that genre designations are kind of bullshit past a certain point.
You just have books, and stories, and certain traditions and motifs that carry on down the years.
There are hero stories, but "hero story" isn't a genre. There's not that big of a separation between a hero story with dragons, or one with space ships, or one with secret agents.
Genres are marketing designations. They help to sell books. They aren't the content.

[Anonymous No.23735716]

>>23730976
It is garbage.

[Anonymous No.23735723]

>>23735715
>Genres are marketing designations. They help to sell books. They aren't the content.
Yep, the very idea of "genres" is a commercial one because commercial products need to fit into convenient categories for the purposes of marketing, distribution, pricing, etc. it's part of the commercialization of our culture and I'm sure it is therefore a bad thing.

[Anonymous No.23735749]

Disco Elysium is better than LOTR. Real worldbuilding that reflects timeless parts of the human psyche is better than blatantly mining pre-Christian Hjelmdall stories while ignoring all the good parts like how the dragon is Rome.

[Anonymous No.23735769]

>>23732858
>Frodo is a hero because he's meek ffs.
Yeah, try carrying an ultra dark lord infused power ring that bends your will and gets physically heavier the more you resist it for a thousand miles by being meek.

[Anonymous No.23735773]

[Anonymous No.23735817]

>>23735773
underrated GOAT post of the thread I read this shit twice a year

[Anonymous No.23735834]

>>23735749
Man, I actually played Disco Elysium, after people wouldn't stop telling me how it's supposedly the best written game ever, and it is not.
I swear these people don't play games or read books.
For one thing, starting your story with an amnesiac, who has to have every detail of the world carefully explained to him, by everyone around him, is such hack writing.
For another thing, the game really wants to pigeonhole you into these wacky zany dialogue choices, that completely deflate the mood.

[Anonymous No.23735845]

>>23735676
maps are cool

[Anonymous No.23736051]

>>23735834
It’s supposed to be existentialism or whatever, the protagonist being amnesiac a reflection of the concept of “thrown into existence” that is the existentialist view of the birth of every human. Or something like that, I hated it and that one game with a talking black cat on a bike in a furry village. Shit games that tried to be more profound than the dogshit they actually are, fucking inside (the game) kept me more engaged despite having no text in the entire game in any form except for 2-3 partially hidden doors with single digit door numbers on them

[Anonymous No.23736061]

>>23735723
It’s the same in the music industry as well. A marketing technique for grouping musicians together so that enthusiasts can consoom better

[Anonymous No.23736167]

>>23735723
>>23736061
Genres are useful categories for most people, who don't want to do research before buying something.
If books were organized by alphabetical order through entire bookshops/libraries without subsections by content category, those places would be a nightmare to navigate.