/clg/ - Classical Languages General

[Anonymous No.23495472]

Actual learning and posting edition

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>23442984

>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

>Work in progress FAQ
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko

RULES:
Do not engage with trolls. Simply report and move on.
Do not post blocks of untranslated text without comment. If you see this, report and move on.
Let's make this general usable again.

[Anonymous No.23495504]

Reminder:
First rule of /clg/:
This is a space dedicated to the discussion and learning of the languages studied for a Classical Philology degree in the US, UK, and its Commonwealth. Kindly keep comments on-topic and about Greek and Latin only. If you would like to discuss other languages with significant to literary traditions, you are free to do so in your own thread.

[Anonymous No.23495507]

>>23495472
Fake thread. Real at
>>23494578
>>23494578
>>23494578
Do not reply. Simply post in real thread until janny wakes up.

[Anonymous No.23495519]

There was talk of a latin readalong a few threads ago. Is that still on/when are we starting?

[Anonymous No.23495522]

>>23495519
You can find it in the real thread.

[Anonymous No.23495634]

>get the gist of the rhythm of Catullus 4(iambic trimeter)
>sheeit I think I finally cracked the trimeter
>try something else in Greek
>nah
we'll get 'em next time

[Anonymous No.23495645]

REAL THREAD HERE
>>23495573
>>23495573
>>23495573

[Anonymous No.23495802]

>>23495634
Greek meter is nothing to sneeze at. Makes Latin meter seem like a walk in the park.

[Anonymous No.23495811]

>>23495519
First two sections of this:
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.02.0136%3Alife%3Dmilt.%3Achapter%3D1%3Asection%3D1

We're discussing them tomorrow, I think.

[Anonymous No.23495812]

The janny has spoken, this shall be the thread
保潔者判之矣,該線真線也。

[Anonymous No.23495828]

>>23495812
Your Chinese isn't even right

[Anonymous No.23495853]

>>23495634
If that's the case then I doubt you have a grip on either. Are you sure you're smart enough?

[Anonymous No.23495855]

>>23495811
This looks really hard. Please select an easier one so that everyone can follow along.

[Anonymous No.23495866]

>>23495855
This is a fairly beginner text, that's why we chose it. What's throwing you?

[Anonymous No.23495869]

>>23495828
That's because it's classical Chinese not modern Chinese, they are different languages and the grammar and vocabulary are not the same, therefore the machine can't translate it

[Anonymous No.23495876]

>>23495869
Sure bud.

[Anonymous No.23495878]

>>23495866
If that's beginner then you're ridiculous. You need to choose something more accessible or else nobody will follow allong

[Anonymous No.23495887]

>Muntu nú eigi sparask til eins drykkjar meira en þér mun hagr á vera
I'm struggling to understand the second phrase despite the glossary defining the whole thing as 'will be well for you'
Is vera the infinitive? Is á actually eiga? Or the preposition? I am extremely confused

[Anonymous No.23495902]

>>23495878
Due to the fact that you did not explain why it was difficult but instead are trying to get people to not participate in the readalong, I have determined that you are a troll and I will not be responding anymore.

>>23495869
Stop responding, he's the troll. Look, his last two posts attempting to sow discourse in the thread are exactly 1 minute apart. Simply hide his posts and report when they break the rules.

[Anonymous No.23495918]

>>23495811
Alright thanks, I'll read it tonight.

[Anonymous No.23495921]

Goddamn it I just made the stupidest fucking mistake
I read a pronoun in the dative case
Then I find a modal verb
Next I find a noun in the nominative case
Then a preposition and finally a verb in the infinitive
For some reason because the preposition and infinitive were next to each other I thought they had to be connected despite that not making any sense, because of this I ignored that the modal verb needed to have an infinitive object
I forgot the pronoun was in the dative case and because of the above, I didn't think that the pronoun was the object of the preposition

[Anonymous No.23495927]

>>23495921
The first three lines of this post have a poetic rhythm to them, so much so that the fourth line threw me since it didn't fit the schema. Also, I take it you're reading poetry?

[Anonymous No.23495928]

>>23495921
That's a really stupid mistake, anon. Are you sure you're cut out for this?

[Anonymous No.23495948]

What does this mean?

[Anonymous No.23495963]

>>23495921
Actually it's not that terrible because I initially thought that the infinitive was actually a noun but after searching it up in the dictionary that theory made absolutely no sense and so I should have dropped it immediately
>>23495927
Lmao I've never been told that before
Anyway it's just standard prose involving banter
>>23495928
Probably not but I won't let that stop me
I really wish I knew how native speakers of moderately to highly inflected languages process their languages

[Anonymous No.23495983]

E pluribus unum.

[Anonymous No.23496014]

I'd like to do a read along of this

[Anonymous No.23496035]

>>23496014
Genuinely might be pretty fun. I'd be down.

[Anonymous No.23496059]

>>23496014
same I've been reading Harry Potter in Latin and my progress has been immense.

[Anonymous No.23496063]

>>23496059
I was gifted a copy the other week, it's good? I'm nearly done with LLPSI 1 and was torn between jumping into LLPSI 2 and that.

[Anonymous No.23496069]

First pages. It's available on Libgen. This will be our portion for tonight. Good?

[Anonymous No.23496123]

>>23495812
What's the time period for Classical Chinese? Like when did texts start and stop being produced in it?

[Anonymous No.23496167]

>>23496069
Seems good to me

[Anonymous No.23496175]

>>23495634
>>23495802
Can you explain that a bit more? I thought Latin and Greek meters were basically the same

[Anonymous No.23496191]

>>23495472
What did L and S sound like in Classical Latin?
There are two variants of each (velarized vs. palatalized, dental vs. postalveolar) used in reconstructed speech today but which of them should be used and why?
Allen argues for hard L and dental S, the Pope for light L and dental S, the bald man for light L and postalveolar S, etc.

[Anonymous No.23496256]

Every hapax legomenon should be annotated on the page by default

[Anonymous No.23496269]

>>23496063
Don't jump to Roma Aeterna after Familia Romana you will get filtered

[Anonymous No.23496363]

>>23496269
What should I read to bridge the gap then?

[Anonymous No.23496395]

>>23496363
Read with us >>23496014

[Anonymous No.23496462]

>>23496363
Jerome's Vulgate. I'm not even Christian bit it's perfect.

[Anonymous No.23496469]

>>23496363

[Anonymous No.23496471]

>>23496269
>FR is the greatest textbook ever for Latin
>but don't read RA after finishing it because you won't be prepared
and then you get dumb shit like >>23496469

[Anonymous No.23496482]

>>23496471
The reality is that no single textbook will prepare you for reading any language, the only thing you can do with a single textbook is grammar translation
I imagine Familia Romana has about 1500 words but you aren't going to acquire all 1500 of those words equally well such that you will be able to read them on the page in any context
Even if you did manage to acquire them all, 1500 is nowhere near enough to actually read Latin

[Anonymous No.23496485]

>>23496471
FR is indeed a good beginner text but it doesn’t prepare you for RA. not that hard to grasp

[Anonymous No.23496490]

>>23495522
This is the real thread.

[Anonymous No.23496499]

What difficulty would you Greek anons say Plutarch's Lives is at? How much study would it take to be able to read it without very much assistance?

[Anonymous No.23496504]

Secondary question: Are there any publishers besides Loeb that do nice hardcover editions of original Latin and Greek texts?

[Anonymous No.23496512]

>>23496504
Oxford Classical Texts
Teubner
Bude if you're French

[Anonymous No.23496516]

>>23496512
Thanks, classical-bro.

[Anonymous No.23496530]

>>23496469
Thanks a bunch, glad I asked. It would have been incredibly disheartening to go from understanding one book to being totally lost on the first page of the next.

[Sage No.23496578]

>>23495811
I just started learning Latin a week ago. Would trying to read this be smart?
This reminds me of when /lit/ had Shakespeare readalongs..

[Anonymous No.23496583]

>>23496504
Oxford Classical and Dumbarton Oaks Medieval Library for Medieval works

[Anonymous No.23496593]

>>23496069
I don't understand how "ne nescio" is working in the second sentence of the second paragraph. "I am afraid [I do not know] because some idiot, if he sees me with a diary will mock me." Huh?

[Anonymous No.23496633]

>>23496593
Timere takes ne/ut + subjunctive so it is not going with nescio but derideat.
Necio qui(quae, etc.) is almost an adverbial clause, separate from the main clause

[Anonymous No.23496852]

>>23496123
the earliest complete texts are from around the 600s BC but there are examples of writing dating back to 1100 BC

The end of its use was gradual and can't be said to have fully ended until 1919 when the May the 4th movement ended the imperial examination system which was one of the main things keeping it alive

[Anonymous No.23496863]

>>23496583
>Dumbarton Oaks
Nice. Never knew about this. Shame Harvard is involved.

[Anonymous No.23496935]

>>23496499
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999.01.0181
Just go on Perseus and see how far you can get into a biography

[Anonymous No.23496952]

Is there ever a point where style can just be overcome without much challenge or will it always be that as you move between authors understanding them will always be difficult? For Caesar, Nepos and other simple authors I don't find that to be a problem but when I tried reading Ammianus or Tacitus I got stuck right away from how different they were in style.

[Anonymous No.23497007]

I'm reading the passage which inspired Tolkien to write Theoden's speech
What was the first thing you read in your TL which you were really excited to read? Maybe something you thought was out of your reach at the time?

[Anonymous No.23497055]

>>23496935
I've only been learning Classical Greek for a month and a half. I won't be able to get far, probably. I'm just curious about these kind of time-line benchmarks for goal-setting.

[Anonymous No.23497139]

>>23496175
Catullus 4 is by the looks of it the so called pure trimeter, so that's probably why it was easier to follow, but that seems to be a simple example of the kind of trimeters there are out there in the Greek

[Anonymous No.23497201]

>>23495948
>Salve! Il passero non è morto, guardate!
>Lesbia dev'essere contentissima, Catullo

[Anonymous No.23497257]

>>23496499
it's kinda challenging, he has a quite broad lexicon; I can somewhat enjoy him having studied Greek for 2+ years, but still, not too smoothly like e.g Plato

[Anonymous No.23497421]

Can you get to the point of reading Latin phil (Spinoza, Baumgarten) by entirely using LLPSI material? What material can I use to bridge the gap?

[Anonymous No.23497479]

>>23496952
It depends on how used to a particular style you get. If you spend a year reading Virgil and get totally used to all of his idiosyncrasies, you’ll probably be pretty surprised when you go pick up some Lucretius. With more experience, the shock will be lessened, but I’ve always needed a little bit to adjust when I transition from one author to another if I’ve been spending a lot of time on the one, and I’ve been doing Latin for years

[Anonymous No.23497483]

How was Miltiades everyone ?
Any problems ? Are we ready to jump into Themistocles ?

[Anonymous No.23497591]

>>23496512
The only issue is that modern OCTs are very expensive for their modern quality (old ones are pretty good) and to buy a Teubner you need to have your firstborn son ready as payment.

[Anonymous No.23497600]

>>23497591
Always buy used, simple solution.

[Anonymous No.23497601]

>>23496863
The only good thing is that Harvard doesn't make their volumes stupidly expensive. I do wish that they had non-bilingual versions though (I can just cover the other page with a notecard but the temptation is there)

[Anonymous No.23497607]

>>23497600
agreed. I got the Iliad and the Odyssey new, and I'm only happy because I got them at half price. Even some of the print is messed up, about once every couple of pages. My old OCT volumes though are great.

[Anonymous No.23497624]

>>23497600
also the one time I found a used Teubner in a book shop it was over $60 and I was about ready to vomit. Would anyone like to form a crew and sack the citadel of de Gruyter for its magnificent praeda?

[Anonymous No.23498022]

Today's reading

[Anonymous No.23498039]

I've lost all morale again. It keeps hitting me that there are really 9 declensions, not five, and four of those are tranny declensions because the male looks like the female so I don't know which adjective goes where.

The tenses are easy but I often have fantasies of giving up and learning Cholo Spanish. Can someone moralize me back into gear?

[Anonymous No.23498057]

>>23497483
gave it a quick read, Athenians disappointing as usual

[Anonymous No.23498080]

>>23498039
why are you learning in the first place

[Anonymous No.23498087]

>>23498039
Grinding out grammar rules is completely pointless, it's good to peruse through a grammar book as you're learning the language but you shouldn't worry too much about committing everything to memory. Start reading something and you'll realise you know more of the language than you thought you did, that should motivate you

[Anonymous No.23498145]

>>23495472
Why did I decide to learn Attic Greek with all the accents? Fuck you Mastronade.

[Anonymous No.23498188]

>>23495472
based, welcome back

[Anonymous No.23498206]

>>23498057
>holding leaders responsible for their fuckups

I wish modern states could be this disappointing.

[Anonymous No.23498348]

>>23498080
Masochism, perhaps. It feels like something I 'should' do.

>>23498087
No doubt, no doubt. I can read most any book of the NT from Jerome's Vulgate. I want to be able to write though. Not even speak, but write simple passages and that is just so far above me it seems unattainable.

[Anonymous No.23498366]

Does it count as /clg/ related if I piped my audio output to stereo mix as my microphone input so that I can google translate Chinese lesbian porn as it plays?
>tfw 噢。噢。噢。噢。

[Anonymous No.23498370]

>>23498039
You could stop, but you'll just come back later anyway. It's a lifelong pursuit.

[Anonymous No.23498373]

>>23498370
I'm thinking about donating my books to a local school.

[Anonymous No.23498388]

>>23498373
Are you in the US? If so, they won't use it anyway. Even the best Latin programs in the country have massive student engagement problems and seem headed for the chopping block, whether slowly or all at once. Kids don't even read in English or Spanish anymore. My best student took the entire year to read Twilight.
>t. teacher

[Anonymous No.23498392]

>>23498388
Fuck.

[Anonymous No.23498397]

>>23498039
>It keeps hitting me that there are really 9 declensions, not five
what?

[Anonymous No.23498399]

>>23498392
It's okay, anon. You aren't a teacher and don't know. Luckily I learned in my first year pre-pandemic not to push Latin, when I leant a bright kid my copy of LLPSI, tried to walk him through how to use it a bit, and got it back covered in graffitied penises, having never been used for anything else. Now post-pandemic I truly believe nobody who isn't a teacher can possibly know how bad it's become.

[Anonymous No.23498426]

>>23498397
Latins first four declensions all have a m/f aspect and a neuter. The masc and fems take different adjectival agreements.

>>23498399
Literally getting certified right now. Thanks for the encouragement. I feel much better about Latin and my career now.

[Anonymous No.23498434]

>>23498399
Where can I get the inside (racist) scoop on the teacher situation? I don't want to wade through gay reddits and twitters and try to read between the lines of what the self-censoring fags are willing to admit. I want a synthetic, insightful take on the state of the youth.

[Anonymous No.23498465]

>>23498434
Sorry, anon, but nowhere. I teach in a >90% white district. The real scoop is less racist than it is luddite. Tech is poison to the developing brain and even if we kept it out of the classrooms they'd be stuffed full of it at home. As it is, admin forces us to give the kids more and more opportunities to disengage and alt-tab to fortnite in the classroom too.

[Anonymous No.23498550]

>>23498366
君不好無法生之女
子廢時也

[Anonymous No.23498566]

>>23498022
Nice... But why is the drawing cropped between pages?

[Anonymous No.23498573]

>>23498465
Tell us more anon

[Anonymous No.23498577]

Considering learning Latin to grow closer to my gods (I revere the Latin pantheon), but I suppose they'd be able to understand me in English so maybe it doesn't matter. Also, 99% of primary sources about Roman Religion will have been translated anyway.
This is troubling. I'm gonna think more about it.

[Anonymous No.23498647]

>>23498573
The kids are missing basic non-academic skills. That's our jargon for things like sharing and using scissors. We effectively have a batch of kids about to apply to college who are missing kindergarten skills, not to mention those above that level. Nobody does homework at all anymore: we assign it because we have to, but we barely put thought in because nobody will do it and nobody at home will make them do it either. Reading has taken the most obvious hit: in my day, and I'm not old, we had to read 40 books a year. Now the kids don't even finish one, not even the ones they begin in English class as part of the curriculum. On one occasion this year I told a kid he couldn't listen to music while reading and he shouted that I was "trying to kill him" and ran to the office to report me.
That's the stuff that stats will record, assuming they reach the public somrday. What they'll miss is that basic social skills are missing too. There are practically no petty conflicts that do not end in blood and broken friendships. Social cliques and relationships are largely gone, replaced with video games, which near 100% of the student body plays obsessively irrespective of status, gender, whatever. We are fast approaching Nietzsche's last man.

[Anonymous No.23498664]

>>23498573
As for the tech side of things, policymakers nationwide seem convinced that the answer is more "tech literacy" and "21st century skills." I'm half convinced that this is because they're all in bed with tech companies and because it's cheaper to write checks for $60 Chromebooks than to deal with the fallout when we try to discipline this generation of kids or hire actual trained teachers instead of long term subs and emergency license holders. School admin drinks this admin too, forcing us to build "tech integrated classrooms": ie, we can't tell the kids to put their Chromebooks away. The hilarious thing is that this fails on its own terms, since the kids after years of this can't type either: all they know how to do is swipe and scroll. Nevertheless, if they disengage constantly with those perpetual disengagement machines on their desks, it's interpreted as our fault, since it couldn't possibly be the computers that they all installed fortnite on.

[Anonymous No.23498749]

>>23498647
School is in outdated means of instruction for modern society. Maybe education would be better served by investing more of it's resources into game development.

[Anonymous No.23498759]

>>23498749
You tell me how better to accomplish the task of both socializing kids and giving them basic skills and awareness of the world around them and I'm all ears. It can't be much worse than what we're doing.

[Anonymous No.23498783]

>>23498759
My experience has shown me the adult world isn't necessarily better socialized than the school-aged world.

But seriously I feel in general that aside from vastly reducing the school year and shifting the focus away from theory, equations, and memorization exercises to instructional tutorials on practical skills, that parents should probably not hesitate to home school as well. As it is people also end up learning more through the internet than through classrooms.

[Anonymous No.23498808]

>>23498783
>My experience has shown me the adult world isn't necessarily better socialized than the school-aged world.
The adult world is really poorly socialized, but trust me when I tell you that nobody who isn't a teacher really knows how rough it is with this latest crop. There has been a definite shift, and it's led to nearly every multi-decade veteran at my site having left. I may honestly do so too before long.

>As it is people also end up learning more through the internet than through classrooms
True, but many of these kids are missing the skills to teach themselves to begin with. You aren't going to like this given the tone of the rest of your post, but one of those skills is memory. Another more fundamental skill is simply reading, which many kids are outright missing.

>parents should probably not hesitate to home school as well
I really fear for this in this modern attention economy, wherein every unhealthy interaction is designed like a slot machine for maximum engagement and addictiveness, and the real nourishing stuff is just the same as it's always been. Look at homeschooling facebook groups. A lot of those kids have matted hair and play minecraft 9 hours a day. I am not kidding or making this example up.

[Anonymous No.23498827]

>>23498577
There is no Latin pantheon. Autochthonous Italic religion looked very little like the Greek pantheon and much more like animism. Even original Greek religion prior to influence by centuries of Near Eastern customs may have been similar.

[Anonymous No.23498867]

>>23498808
>You aren't going to like this given the tone of the rest of your post
I feel that once the essential elementary knowledge is out of the way during the grade school years that most of everything else becomes, increasingly unnecessary without a specific purpose to using it. I had to attend summer school every year until I dropped out in highschool and took a GED test about a year later, passing with flying colors. Now I probably have as much or more knowledge on some academic interests than even someone with a PHD might. I still feel that time at school would have been better spent so as to save time later learning practical "adulting" skills like changing oil, filling out things like checks along with a greater engagement in financial literacy instruction and plenty of other useful home skills. These are things that are pretty lacking seeing how parenting skills are also under a continual decline.

[Anonymous No.23498892]

>>23498867
My experience with school was fairly similar to yours. Years of experience in and out of the school world has shown me that most people aren't self-starters in the same way, that most people have dependent approaches to learning, and that people like you or I often already had strong memory skills and personal interests already and were foiled by other demands of school.
Building a one size fits all system is obviously really hard. I am convinced that letting the kids alt-tab to fortnite is one of the worst ways.

[Anonymous No.23499148]

>>23498827
Near easterners did not have a lares custom. I think you're trying to imply that the Trojans were in Turkey, but they were not. I think this because you probably saw that part in Livy that said the religion of the Romans comes from Troy. However, Troy is not from Turkey or the near east. In fact, we don't know a whole lot about their religions.

[Anonymous No.23499153]

>>23498577
You are right too!

>>23498827
>Autochthonous Italic religion
Etruscan pantheon was essentially Celtic. I think you should rephrase Italic to Latinic. Even then, you are utterly incorrect. Samnites spoke a similar language and they had a Grecian pantheon.

[Anonymous No.23499316]

>>23498647
>>23498664
Bleak. Thanks for sharing. Confirms what I’ve seen with my nieces and nephews but I didn’t think it was so ubiquitous

[Anonymous No.23499357]

>>23498808
>True, but many of these kids are missing the skills to teach themselves to begin with
Scary demonstration of how deep American (assuming you’re American) public education is into the feedback loop of:
inadequate parents beget inadequate learners become inadequate parents
How do you break out of this? And on the topic of
>how to accomplish the task of socializing kids
Maybe the prime years of socialization shouldn’t be dependent on the the public education environment? Church as a social group is in its death throes unfortunately. I don’t know a good solution, this is all depressing to think about

[Anonymous No.23499388]

>>23499357
I am American but with significant continental ties. From what I've seen they are suffering from less severe versions of the same problems over there.
I don't know how to break out of this. I am just an expert in my content field and a moderately experienced, still young teacher. If I knew how to break out of this cycle I would be running around the country trying to push my method instead of depressed and on 4chan indulging a hobby so far removed from what I do. Liquor helps too. All my colleagues are alcoholics.

[Anonymous No.23499409]

I thought about reading, writing, and translating some sentences; but perhaps it would be too time-consuming to actively do the entire book, or even the rest of the chapter.

[Anonymous No.23499420]

>>23499409
Just do the exercises. That's how the book is designed.

[Anonymous No.23499428]

>>23499357
>Maybe the prime years of socialization shouldn’t be dependent on the the public education environment?
Missed this. The fact is that the prime years of socialization just aren't dependent on the public education environment, regardless of what anyone pretends. Children (and adults) bring their outside socialization to school much more than the other way around. Today that socialization largely takes place on roblox, fortnite, and tiktok while the kids stay locked inside to avoid the junkies shooting up outside. Unfortunately, most of the existing alternatives are even worse.

[Anonymous No.23499449]

>>23499409
I'd recommend trying to avoid translation

[Anonymous No.23499701]

>>23499449
Of course you would, then again you are a beginner and can't read Latin

[Anonymous No.23499705]

>>23499428
>>23499388
>>23499357
>>23498892
>>23498867
>>23498808
>>23498783
>>23498759
>>23498749
>>23498664
>>23498647
Completely off-topic
I am not the troll but this whole discussion belongs elsewhere

[Anonymous No.23499727]

>>23499409
dont make more work than you need, just read it, understand it, and do the exercises.
If there's something that you're really struggling with, consult a grammar book

[Anonymous No.23499728]

>>23496123
They never completely stopped.

[Anonymous No.23499734]

>>23498577
You don't suppose they'd appreciate being addressed in their own language even if they understand English?

[Anonymous No.23499745]

>>23499705
>haha I’m definitely not the troll guys

[Anonymous No.23499752]

>>23499745
On the one hand, the discussion in question is in fact somewhat tangential to the thread. On the other hand, it grew organically out of a discussion directly within the topic. I'm not sure what to think.

[Anonymous No.23499756]

>>23499745
>>23499752
Take the 'muh kids these days' thing to /pol/ or somewhere else. It has nothing to do with classical languages
>b-but it grew organically
With that attitude you might as well welcome Esperanto to the thread because the troon will find a way to work it in 'organically'.
Classical languages. It's that simple.

[Anonymous No.23499760]

>>23499734
You're right anon, I know you're right. I know it's the right thing to do. I know.

It's just hard and I'm looking for excuses. This was wrong of me. I should have been better.

[Anonymous No.23499764]

>>23499756
The thread is moderately stable for the first time in weeks and you’re nitpicking this? Fuck off

[Anonymous No.23499772]

>>23499756

it's on topic classical languages teaching is litterally dying.

[Anonymous No.23499779]

>>23499760
That said, as someone else pointed out, the 'Roman pantheon' as we usually think of it is heavily syncretized with Greek religion.

[Anonymous No.23499919]

>>23499764
This.

[Anonymous No.23499965]

>>23499764
>off-topic is ok when I say it is
Have some standards, lowlife

[Anonymous No.23500023]

>>23499965
Everyone agrees what was discussed here is both on topic and acceptable. Not sure why you're freaking out like this. It's well understood that student performance has declined over the years.

[Anonymous No.23500274]

Greekbros, we should read something this week. I was thinking a short Platonic dialogue like Alcibiades II or something

[Anonymous No.23500275]

I just ordered the Cambridge Ancient Greek Lexicon!

[Anonymous No.23500279]

>>23500274
I'm a neophyte retard, but I'm down to try. I'm off the next two days anyway.

[Anonymous No.23500310]

>>23500279
https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3atext%3a1999.01.0175%3atext%3dAlc.+2
The grammar isn't too bad for a beginner but you may need to look up a lot of words

[Anonymous No.23500359]

>>23500310
Yes, I will, but I'm working on it. It's fun.

[Anonymous No.23500745]

Does anybody have any Medieval recommendations for Latin that are relatively easy? The only one I can think of are Einhard's Charlemagne

[Anonymous No.23500829]

>>23500745
maybe Gesta Francorum

[Anonymous No.23500960]

>>23499409
You will waste time translating every single sentence. There's nothing wrong with breaking out the notebook to help work through a particularly difficult sentence you're struggling with, but you don't need to translate "Roma in Italia est".

[Anonymous No.23500971]

>>23499409
Macaco IQ on display here

[Anonymous No.23500973]

>>23500960
It's not only a waste of time, it's a terrible habit. Translation isn't reading

[Anonymous No.23500975]

>>23498577
Holy larp

[Anonymous No.23501208]

>>23500745
Legenda Aurea. Short, comfy stories about saints. I found them pretty easy reading.

[Anonymous No.23501221]

>>23500975
Evidence?

[Anonymous No.23501345]

>>23499756
The second this gets discussed on 4chan, the quality of replies and ideas will be like 10x less, so fuck off. I want to know what the people of /lit/ think about this, not the people of (lol) /pol/

[Anonymous No.23501676]

>>23501221
Find Christ. Pray the rosary and read one chapter of the Bible a day and I promise you will. Don't waste your soul pretending you believe in the "Latin pantheon" because you think the Roman empire was cool

[Anonymous No.23501750]

>>23501676
Holy larp

[Anonymous No.23502106]

perseus is pissing me off

[Anonymous No.23502139]

>>23501676
Christian apologists a century after the crucifixion wrote Greek evangelisms weaving Greek mythological motifs into a martyr and resurrection narrative because they thought the Greek pantheon was cool. Did they waste their souls?

[Anonymous No.23502168]

>>23499409
Why do you write your ts so tall bro

[Anonymous No.23502178]

>>23502139
source? This sounds really cool, I want to read some.

[Anonymous No.23502181]

>>23499409
femboy handwriting

[Anonymous No.23502293]

So is the schizo gone?

[Anonymous No.23502329]

>>23502293
shhhh

[Anonymous No.23502330]

>>23502293
don't summon him you fasciculum

[Anonymous No.23502531]

>>23501345
Then make a thread about it, don't leech onto this one

[Anonymous No.23502536]

>>23500310
read about 1/3

[Anonymous No.23502645]

>>23502139
Possibly, they did, but that's up to God. It doesn't sound like something a real Christian would do. I'm a Christian, and I still find enjoyment in the study of history and myth, however, I realize that if at any point any of the deities worshipped by the Greeks were tied to actual entities, then those entities were likely fallen angels for whom Hell was created.

It reminds me of an Archaeological Study Bible produced by Zondervan which was highly blasphemous. It has all sorts of useful and interesting archaeological notes and so forth inside of it and was very well made, but it included hymns to pagan gods as side notes and so forth, which is about as un-Christian as you could possibly be, despite that these orchestrators were producing a Bible. It's one thing to study that stuff for historical interest, but it's altogether inappropriate to the point of calling it evil to place it alongside the Living Word of God.

Nta, btw.

[Anonymous No.23502657]

>>23501750
This.

[Anonymous No.23502758]

Scansion is pretty fun, actually. I'm starting to get the hang of it, and I'm recognizing long vowels more easily. But I still can't into rhythm at all. Hoping that will come with more practice. I'm only at 90 out of 1000 from https://distichalatina.blogspot.com/

[Anonymous No.23502791]

>>23502758
Nice. What a refreshing development.

[Anonymous No.23502795]

I cant find the answer key for the exercises in Hackets intro to Hebrew on the cd (or more likely the pdf doesn't work as designed on my machine). Trying to figure out what פני בת האשה means since בת is not in constuct form and its labelled a phrase

[Anonymous No.23502799]

>>23502795
Fuck outta here with that medieval reconstruction of Aramaic.

Why don't you go make a yidd general and we bring that classical Chinese guy back?

[Anonymous No.23502812]

>>23502795
Is this for modern or biblical Hebrew?

[Anonymous No.23502838]

>>23502812
Biblical

[Anonymous No.23502862]

>>23502838
How are you liking it? I just want to read Bearshit bro

[Anonymous No.23502943]

>>23502862
It's cool. Sort of a comfy caveman language experience. Also feels much more esoteric than Latin.

[Anonymous No.23502949]

>>23502758
I've been trying to learn to compose 七言絶句 because that seems to be one of the most common Classical Chinese poetic forms. I should try scanning some existing poems more.

[Anonymous No.23503013]

>>23496191
>muh le real thread
>don't answer actual on-topic questions
Fuck you.

[Anonymous No.23503075]

>>23502949
I've tried composing, but I'm nowhere near good enough for that yet.

[Anonymous No.23503092]

>>23503075
Oh? I'd like to see what attempts you've made.

[Anonymous No.23503147]

>>23503075
>>23503092
Me too

[Anonymous No.23503183]

>>23503092
>>23503147

If and when I can make a couplet work, I'll post it. Mostly, I have a hexameter, half a pentameter, and a dead end.

[Anonymous No.23503189]

>>23502949
>>23503075
>>23503092
>>23503147
>>23503183
Samefag.

[Anonymous No.23503195]

>>23503189
Fuck off go start your own Hebrew general classical Chinese is classical

[Anonymous No.23503218]

>>23503195
This thread is for Latin and Greek. Everything else should leave. You derail the threads and you do it on purpose.


Obvious samefag.

[Anonymous No.23503239]

>>23503195
Don't respond to the troll.

[Anonymous No.23503243]

>>23495963
>I really wish I knew how native speakers of moderately to highly inflected languages process their languages
Look up "The Art of Reading Latin: How To Teach It" by William Gardner Hale. It's a lecture given by a Latin professor in 1886 who decries the then-current state of classics education, in which students were taught to decipher texts rather than read them as a Roman would. He gets at your question in this lecture, by analyzing how a Roman might parse a Latin sentence while hearing it word-by-word.

[Anonymous No.23503247]

>>23503239
You're the troll, samefag. Eat shit and die.

[Anonymous No.23503249]

>>23503243
Fascinating. Nta, but I will look it up.

[Anonymous No.23503251]

>>23503147
Here's a poem I wrote for Mother's Day.
忘母親節荒作詩

大樹有根川有泉
人間孰亦無親緣
雖忘購以貢良品
作句人倫願以全
I know, it's bad.

[Anonymous No.23503259]

>>23503249
You can find it on Perseus: https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0066.. Not only is the speaker extremely insightful (the method that he advocates is a beautiful middle way between the traditional grammar-vocab method and the modern "just read lol" methods), but he's quite witty too.

[Anonymous No.23503261]

>>23503259
Thanks.

[Anonymous No.23503500]

>>23502795
If it's biblical, please post the word with nikud and I will help you, because without nikud it looks like smichut/status constructus

[Anonymous No.23503652]

>>23503251
I don't get what you're going for with the last sentence. Firstly it should be 者 not 人, and I don't understand why you would "desire everything in human relationships". Doesn't make sense

[Anonymous No.23503680]

>>23503652
全 in the sense of whole/intact. As in 寧可玉碎,不能瓦全. And 人倫 is a compound word here.

[Anonymous No.23503688]

>>23503251
Also I just realized I didn't actually write 川, I wrote 河

[Anonymous No.23503767]

My Cambridge Greek Lexicon arrived and it is really nice. You really do get a lovely sense of the way in which words interrelate from reading it. It's probably the first dictionary I've come across that's nearly just a readable text on its own. My only quibble, and I realize it may have made the dual-volume set become abominably clunky, is there are older Lexicons which include small Greek textual excerpts within the definitions. I always liked that, and this one doesn't do it; but the definitions are excellent and give contextual description for usage. If anyone was thinking on whether to buy them or not, I think they're worth the money.

[Anonymous No.23503870]

>>23503767
Why is it so cheap?
Does it feel cheap?

[Anonymous No.23503949]

>>23503870
nta, but i've used one as well. the quality of the binding is very good and feels like it will probably outlive it's owner. the entries are also much better than middle liddle's. only problem is that it is separated into two thick volumes that take up a lot of space so it's kind of a hassle to use it effectively.

[Anonymous No.23504008]

>>23503500
I don't understand why you would use a medieval bible and not a classical bible.

[Anonymous No.23504040]

>>23503870
No, it feels nice. Sewn binding, like the other anon mentioned, strong hardback cover, and a case for the two volumes. It wasn't cheap to me, but I suppose it is affordable.

>>23503949
I actually like that it comes in two volumes.

[Anonymous No.23504130]

>>23503767
>small Greek textual excerpts
These are near essential

[Anonymous No.23504352]

>>23502795
What exercise is that? Let me check my Hacket, I think that I wrote down most of the corrected answers up to like chapter 20 when I was first working through it. I’ll just have to find my notebook

[Anonymous No.23504387]

>>23504130
Yeah, I like them, but looking at this dictionary, I don't think you'll suffer much without them either.

[Anonymous No.23504609]

>>23503259
>>23503249
section 4 nuclear blackpill
>Or, to put it another way, the boy who, reaching [Catil. 3.1] in the course of his preparation for college, cannot understand that particular sentence, and a great many much more difficult sentences in the oration, from reading it straight through once in the Latin, nay, from merely hearing his teacher read it straight through once in the Latin, has been wrongly trained, is wasting time sadly, out of a human life all too short, and, so far from being on the direct way to read Latin with speed and relish, and then to proceed to do so, is on the direct way to drop it just as soon as the elective system of his particular college will allow, and, if he cares for literature, to go into some language in which it is not necessary, first to find the subject, and then the predicate, and then the modifiers of the subject, and then the modifiers of the predicate, and then to do the same thing for the subordinate sentence, or, if there are several subordinate sentences, to do the same thing for each one of them in the order of their importance, and then to put these tattered bits together into a patchwork.

[Anonymous No.23504708]

Anabasis mogs Garlic War so much holy shit

[Anonymous No.23504848]

>>23503259
Great read, thanks for sharing.

[Anonymous No.23504968]

>>23504708
I'm too much of a beginner in Greek to agree or disagree, but yeah the only good part of Gallic Wars is the beginning of book 6

[Anonymous No.23505087]

>>23504968
>>23504708
Han Feizi mogs both

[Anonymous No.23505371]

>>23503680
Ah ok, I hadn't seen that binome before. Not awful then, although I haven't read enough poetry to judge it in that aspect.

>>23505087
Legalists out

[Anonymous No.23505721]

>>23495472
>Let's make this general usable again.
>>23496191
>no response
Fuck you.

[Anonymous No.23505878]

>>23505721
these almost irrelevant minutiae have been discussed before and aren't that important to people interested in classics, people who want to read what these people wrote don't obsess over the ultra specific realization of a single sound beyond what most people would barely even perceive as different, especially since it's also a quite specialized kind of knowledge unlike basic discussion on the general quality of the sound

[Anonymous No.23505880]

>>23505721
>>no response
nigga, this is /clg/
no one here has any clue what you asked about, because no here knows linguistics to any capacity, despite it being a pretty fucking major elephant-in-the-room prerequisite for ancient languages

[Anonymous No.23505926]

>>23505880
Linguistics is in no way a prerequisite for classical languages, however. It's auxiliary at most.

[Anonymous No.23505952]

>>23496191
Loud farting noises

[Anonymous No.23505957]

>>23505880
>despite it being a pretty fucking major elephant-in-the-room prerequisite for ancient languages
HAHAHAHAH, please be a troll. Every respectable linguist back in the day knew Latin and Greek. Nowadays you can probably count on one hand the amount of linguists who know both languages.

[Anonymous No.23505981]

>>23505721
Anon, I've only got up until Cambridge Latin Course volume II on my Latin, and I'm new to Ancient Greek. I'm curious as to the answer, but I don't know which one it is. I doubt there is a definitive answer.

[Anonymous No.23505988]

>>23496191
>There are two variants of each
There are more than two "variants." Go find a proper IPA chart.
We can surmise that s was likely unvoiced in all positions. Some argue the lack of any [ʃ] makes a retracted s more likely as well but this is far from certain. We also know from inscriptions and spelling mistakes that towards the end of the classical period it started disappearing word-finally. That is all.
No person now alive has ever heard native Latin. There are no recordings. There's only evidence from written records and descendent languages, which have very diverse phonologies. We will probably never know the particulars of Latin phonetics in detail.

[Anonymous No.23506011]

>>23496191
>velarized vs. palatalized, dental vs. postalveolar
I can tell by the massive assumptions involved in this question that you are probably Russian or otherwise russophone. If not that, then some other sort of slav.
Latin certainly did not have a phonemic palatalization distinction. [l] was probably a light, dental [l], as in French, Tuscan, or Continental Spanish, since that's what appears in most romance languages, except in environments that characteristically "darken" [l] (germination in Catalan, syllable-coda in Portuguese.) The [s] is truly anyone's guess.

[Anonymous No.23506053]

Y'all are still a bunch of fasciculum

[Anonymous No.23506068]

>>23505880
>>23505926
Some basic survey knowledge of linguistics goes a long way even for a hobbyist enthusiast in classical languages. It isn't even a heavy lift: the average intro to linguistics course already goes deeper than you really need, and that is famously not a very hard class at most colleges. If you're self-driven enough to learn declensions you can probably learn all you'll ever need about linguistics in two weeks or less, which is why it's surprising that some people here are so hostile to the idea

[Anonymous No.23506072]

>>23502799
Hi, I'm back, though I probably won't stick around.
Keep it up, Hebrew posters.

[Anonymous No.23506074]

>>23506068
I'm not hostile to the idea at all. In fact, I would love it if you could recommend a course. Strenghtening your bases is always good.

[Anonymous No.23506084]

https://donaldclarkplanb.blogspot.com/2011/02/10-reasons-not-to-learn-latin.html
Thoughts?
Especially the part about Ancient Greek just being far more interesting

[Anonymous No.23506087]

>>23505087
Weird comparison. 左轉 is probably more fitting here, since it deals with military matters in an impersonal but moralizing tone. It's harder than any of those texts though.
I think Han Feizi makes about as much sense as an introduction to "real" Classical Chinese as Plato does to "real" Greek. Neither are really difficult in terms of vocabulary or grammar, but I would think more narrative driven texts better for a first foray than complicated philosophical arguments. For philosophy students only, then.

[Anonymous No.23506101]

>>23506074
The Language Files from Ohio State is really good, but recommending it for self-study is kind of like recommending Baby Rudin for analysis, if you're familiar. You can do it, but you'll want someone else's guidance and probably only want to read very specific selections besides. Unfortunately, it's been long enough that I can't tell you what parts to focus on off the top of my head.
Also at a cursory glance, there's an MIT OCE course. I haven't looked at it, but those are usually pretty good. You could probably even passively follow along with it. Linguistics does not get that hard until deeper in.

[Anonymous No.23506104]

>>23496191
>>23505721
We will never know for sure. Never. Time travel does not and will not exist, it can't.

[Anonymous No.23506107]

>>23505880
I have no interest in linguistics
It seems like one of the dullest subjects imaginably besides SLA
Philology along the lines of Tolkien is what I'm interested in

[Anonymous No.23506117]

>>23506084
Someone has a bone to pick with Oxbridge types but is somehow fine with Steven Pinker. Interesting. Probably not who I'd have over for dinner.
Sarcasm aside, almost all of these points are valid. Most people in this thread are likely hobbyists who are aware of these things and don't mind because they find Latin to be a fun hobby.

[Anonymous No.23506120]

>>23506101
Thanks, will check those out.

[Anonymous No.23506121]

>>23506107
*imaginable

[Anonymous No.23506122]

>>23506107
Part of Tolkien's philology was phonetics and phonology, which today has been reclassified under the vast umbrella of linguistics. If you're a hobbyist in these things you would probably well to learn a little bit about it, even if it isn't going to be your field. I didn't complain when I had to fulfill my chemistry requirement and I probably disliked that subject a lot more than you linguistics.

[Anonymous No.23506137]

>>23506122
I care about phonetics but looking into the details of how scholars came to the conclusions that they did is simply just a curiosity for me

[Anonymous No.23506151]

>>23506084
Except most of his points against Latin also apply to Greek. He clearly got filtered by Latin 101 and is still butthurt. Then again looking at his avatar choice and a brief perusal of his blog topics leads one to think maybe he just has no soul.

[Anonymous No.23506164]

>>23506107
Palmer's The Latin Language and The Greek Language are excellent for this. Succinct and distilled in regards to both languages.

[Anonymous No.23506170]

>>23506151
Oof: didn't look at the rest of his blog. He seems like a garden-variety Silicon Valley optimist. Opinion worthless by default.

[Anonymous No.23506249]

>>23506084
>IT'S DUMB AND A WASTE OF TIME ALSO IT'S A DEAD LANGUAGE
>WHY DON'T YOU LEARN ANCIENT GREEK, WHICH IS ALSO ALL OF THESE THINGS?
If you are learning an ancient language for the modern utility, you're probably retarded. In any case, he missed the entire point of why people learn Latin at all.

[Anonymous No.23506284]

>>23506164
Hmmm...nta, but I'm interested too. I love nerding out, you guys.

[Anonymous No.23506553]

There is nothing of unique artistic value to be found in Latin. Cicero save for sentence structure has nothing interesting to say; Virgil is an inferior echo of Homer, Thucydides, and even the minor Apollonius of Rhodes; Ovid's prurient chatter finds its best expression in his latter-day successors Petrarch and Shakespeare. Latin is the picked-dry corpse of a thief.

[Anonymous No.23506557]

>>23506553
WRONG, RETARD!

[Anonymous No.23506564]

>>23506557
>all caps
Thanks for proving me right.

[Anonymous No.23506576]

>>23506553
Thanks for that worthless, plebian mind vomit. Now, if you'll excuse me, there are men with functioning brains I'd like to hear from.

[Anonymous No.23506612]

>>23506564
Facilius est se a concertationem cum pathico abstinere quam abducere.

>>23506576
Dic nomen Pupieni (id est imperatoris) viva voce, sed in casu nominativo. Eheu..

[Anonymous No.23506814]

Literally me ha ha

[Anonymous No.23506822]

I am going to do Roma Aeterna cover to cover until I physically pass out from exhaustion

[Anonymous No.23506837]

>>23506084

ok i'm pretty tired with all this bullshit of latin or ancient greek=useless

ok please let me find savonarola sermons in french ,please let me a complete works of just scaliger and btw if you can find me charters ,capitulaires from middle ages translated i would be glad too.
Oh btw you know this alcuin who was the main "intellectual" at the court of charlemagne please let me find them translated ? oh right they're not. oh and if i dare ask you can you please send me a translated version of most writings of gregorius the great ? oh right not translated ,as for boethius whats up ? oh yeah not everything is translated.

Oh right you fucking can't because most of what exist hasn't been translated as for ancient greek i'm pretty sure it's the fucking same when it comes to byzantine litterature but i'm less aware about that.We're sitting down on a mountain of thoughts on every subject possible and no ones cares, if things continue like that in two fucking hundred year no ones will be able to read them or translate them.


it makes me remember of this university professor who said in an interview "well we got a lot of student in master (4th year of university in france) and they want to study vikings but when we ask them if they know latin they said no and it's a bit problematic" ofc in wich language monks or men of the X/XIcentury were writing. apply the fucking same up to xvii century for a lot of fields.

[Anonymous No.23506854]

>>23506837
Did Régis Boyer know Latin?

[Anonymous No.23506886]

>>23506854

i don't fucking know if he did i would assume yes because if you want to actually study vikings and their interactions with the latin world you'll have to use written sources from monasteries and if your question is a rhetorical question then i would answer to you that régis boyer is mostly a translator and commentator of viking LITTERATURE not their history even if two are related but if we had only to rely on old norse litterature we probably wouldn't know much about them.

[Anonymous No.23506900]

>>23506553
Okay guess I'll stop learning I was already feeling demoralized anyways

[Anonymous No.23507864]

Is there any good modern (modern as in "after middle ages") Latin book that is not about philosophy?

[Anonymous No.23507946]

Are we still doing the latin reading group? I just finished themistocles.

[Anonymous No.23508062]

does anyone else find it difficult to read without a physical book that you can annotate? it gets hard for me to keep track of where I am and how I'm interpretating each sentence, especially with information-dense texts where I have to frequently look up words and revise meanings of earlier passages

[Anonymous No.23508077]

>>23508062
I don’t annotate books, but I agree that they’re better when physical. With a computer, especially on a site like Perseus, I can just go easily look up a word, which I then immediately forget. A physical copy is much better for actually learning by struggling through the text

[Anonymous No.23508081]

>>23508062
Use a notebook.

[Anonymous No.23508158]

>>23508062
I use my pdf reader to highlight and annotate. It works well when you have a system. Yellow = new word I had to look up which gets added to a flashcard later. Whole passages that I struggle with get a blue highlight, and I review those regularly by writing them out by hand. General annotations get a green highlight, for example you may understand a phrase but you want to leave a note on the syntactic construction as a reminder when re-reading. I also recommend setting a custom keyboard shortcut to initiate a macron vowel which makes typing a lot tedious.

[Anonymous No.23508309]

>>23508158
>I also recommend setting a custom keyboard shortcut to initiate a macron vowel which makes typing a lot tedious.
Get the Maori keyboard for writing macrons. You only have to do ~ + vowel to get a macron. It works so well.

[Anonymous No.23508376]

>>23508062
No. I find a pdf easier than a real book in that regard. Much faster to look up new words and keep track of where I am.

In the past, I used a paper notebook extensively alongside a digital source, but now I just use a text document when I want to take notes.

[Anonymous No.23508497]

>>23506837
They're just retards. Like half (probably even more) of the writings of the Greek Church Fathers are untranslated. Same with the Latin Church Fathers; even all of Augustine hasn't been translated yet.

[Anonymous No.23508517]

>>23506084
This guy is just a hylic Anglo with no sense of history.
>Learn Urdu so you can increase the GDP and welcome migrants, or something.

[Anonymous No.23508520]

Latin is unironically the most useful language in the world because it's the official language of the Church.

[Anonymous No.23508522]

>>23504708
Anabasis gets boring after the 2nd book desv. Cyropaideia mogs it.

[Anonymous No.23508531]

>>23508520
The proportion of clergy who can read Latin fluently, let alone compose it or converse in it, is about 1%.

[Anonymous No.23508548]

>>23508531
Which makes the need for people who know Latin well all the more dire.

[Anonymous No.23508674]

>>23508520
The official language of the church is all of them, clearly. (it's Latin, Hebrew, and Greek that are the sacred languages)

[Anonymous No.23509194]

Can anyone direct me to a download of the CD-ROM for this edition of Lingva Latina? Preferably ecclesiastical pronunciation.

[Anonymous No.23509316]

>>23508497
>>23506837

The argument isn't "no one ever needs to learn a dead language". Obviously it is an important skill for specialists in some fields. The argument is that 99% of people will never use Latin or ancient Greek for anything but personal enjoyment.

[Anonymous No.23509319]

>>23508674
Aramaic, not Hebrew.

[Anonymous No.23509378]

>>23508674
The Holy See's official language is Latin

[Anonymous No.23509404]

>>23508520
How is that useful?

[Anonymous No.23509437]

>>23509316
>The argument is that 99% of people will never use Latin or ancient Greek for anything but personal enjoyment.
Which is itself a bad argument. The majority of English words have Latinate ancestry, and reading comprehension + vocabulary are strong predictors of success in life. Certainly so by the criteria of the striving careerist class, whose interests begin and end with seeking "value". And wouldn't you know it, Donald Clark is the portrait of a striver
>Donald Clark is a Learning Tech Entrepreneur, CEO, Investor, Author, Podcaster, Blogger and Speaker
>https://oeb.global/programme/speakers/oeb-23/donald-clark
Beware these disgusting pseudo-intellectual value-seekers, never satisfied with life, always skulking around for another startup idea or investment opportunity.

[Anonymous No.23509450]

Btw if we finally started a discussion, do we have any evidence for /b/, /d/, and /g/ being spirantized like in modern Spanish as back as in Classical Latin? As I understand, we know it was already present in Vulgar Latin.
>>23506011
>you are probably Russian
Yeah.
>did not have a phonemic palatalization distinction
Not a phonemic one but the two different L were explicitly noted by grammarians. And, actually, any consonant before /i/ and /e/ is palatalized and any before /u/ and /o/ is velarized, IPA is just being retarded about that.
>except in environments that characteristically "darken" [l] (germination in Catalan, syllable-coda in Portuguese.)
I was told that these exceptions are the most explicit poofs of it being "dark" because such widespread "darkening" as in Portuguese and Romanian never happens in such conditions, isn't it true? Allen, as I said, also argues for "dark" L based on the grammarians' note of existence of two allophones of L (with one being the major though).
>is truly anyone's guess
What's the evidence for the non-retracted S though? For the retracted one, we have the most conservative modern Iberian languages, explicit evidence from Old French, and some evidence of it being present as far back as in PIE due to the presence of the same phoneme in conservative Germanic languages.
>>23505988
>are more than two
Which are there besides the two for each? S definitely could be only either of two, L could vary in its place of articulation regardless of being soft or hard but it's not a main feature.
>which have very diverse phonologies
Not really, not regarding these two definitely. See above.
>are no recordings
There are grammarians though.
>>23505981
Ah don't get upset anon, I was just bumping the question, it's a good thread.

[Anonymous No.23509463]

Reading some Ovid, stuck on this line (surrounding lines given for context)
>Non ego nobilium sedeo studiosus equorum;
>cui tamen ipsa faves, vincat ut ille, precor.
>ut loquerer tecum veni, tecumque sederem,
>[ne tibi non notus, quem facis, esset amor.] <-this line here
>tu cursus spectas, ego te; spectemus uterque
>quod iuvat, atque oculos pascat uterque suos.
I understand the surrounding lines, and I can sort of understand what this line is getting at, but I can't make sense of it gramatically. "It is not known to you, [my] love which is of the flame of love"? Huh?

[Anonymous No.23509470]

>>23509437
>The majority of English words have Latinate ancestry
Knowing a handful of latin roots is good enough and is something you ca pick up just by widely reading in English. Or by memorizing some SAT vocab. You don't need to spend years studying an entirely different language.

I learn Latin because it's fucking cool, not because it is useful.

[Anonymous No.23509485]

>>23509463
facis is a verb
quem, as is often with qui and its various declensions, starts a relative clause

[Anonymous No.23509506]

>>23509463
>ut loquerer tecum veni, tecumque sederem,
>[ne tibi non notus, quem facis, esset amor.]
Don't trust my interpretation, because I am an idiot. But I read this as

>I have come to sit and talk with you so that the love which you inspire should not be unknown to you

The ne + subj seems like a negative purpose clause.

[Anonymous No.23509514]

Latin is useful because of all the untranslated medieval/early modern stuff. A mediocre book of medieval theology is more intellectually rewarding than anything in a moderntranny language.

[Anonymous No.23509517]

>>23509485
Thanks, that was throwing me. I assumed facis was the genitive of fax since it was about love.

>>23509506
>Don't trust my interpretation, because I am an idiot.
Your translation seems to be closer to the actual meaning of the text than any of the translations I've been comparing mine to, so don't put yourself down like that. We're all learning here.

[Anonymous No.23509519]

>>23509470
>Knowing a handful of latin roots is good enough
Given the breadth of connotation of those roots as used in Latin, English and French, over the course of thousands of years, "memorizing a handful" is not a substitute for learning them as they were used in Latin. Memorization in lieu of principle sets you on a path to shallow reading, or worse, misreading.

[Anonymous No.23509522]

>>23509470
Latin is fun to learn because it's cool, but learning it does let you understand the meaning of more new english words than you would otherwise. I can understand a fair amount of the medical jargon my gf uses when describing her work and I definitely couldn't have done that prior to studying the language.

[Anonymous No.23509895]

>>23509450
>As I understand, we know it was already present in Vulgar Latin.
How? I haven't heard this before and am curious.
>Which are there besides the two for each? S definitely could be only either of two, L could vary in its place of articulation regardless of being soft or hard but it's not a main feature.
This is the assumption that immediately told me you were Russian.
You are clearly very well informed about phonetics and phonology, and you are making the understandable mistake of projecting phonological features of your native language elsewhere. "Hard" and "soft" are just useful terms for a feature in Slavic languages and do not refer in fact to any phonetic feature: iirc some consonants classified as "hard" in Russian are "soft" in Czech. It's kind of like the way Anglophones talk about "long" and "short" vowels without an actual vowel length distinction: it has clear utility to grammarians within the language, and not outside.
On that note, find a really detailed IPA chart and explore it for a bit. There are very many s and l-type consonants that some language or other will necessarily distinguish. All of these would have interesting implications for the reconstruction of Latin phonology, but I just don't think we can know these things with that much certainty yet.

[Anonymous No.23510344]

Not really sure what the best way I should be studying Old Norse is
Right now what I'm doing is searching up every word I don't know and inflections I don't recognise, and then annotating a text document
I also include the specific usage of a preposition/verb when I encounter them
That's taking me a very long time to do
It took me about 15 hours to do this for 12 microsoft word pages with 10 pt text

[Anonymous No.23510368]

>>23510344
It depends, how dense is the text? Post a screenshot of what you're doing.

[Anonymous No.23510383]

>>23510368
I guess the problem is that I'm not sure if there are easier texts
I can't remember who said it but someone recommended using bilingual texts and ignoring some of the detail but when i taught myself French I searched up every word I didn't know or wasn't comfortable with and that worked out well
The problem is that it takes far more effort to search up Old Norse words than French words

[Anonymous No.23510642]

>>23509895
>how
I haven't yet studied the changes of the vulgar speech so I'm just re-telling what I was told by other men. We know that many of the instances of said vowels were gone from the standard Romance languages, like in derivatives of EGO, in such environments that suggest it happened due to spirantization with all the retained consonants being secured back to be full stops, and we also have the non-standard varieties of both Italian and Iberian languages which show both higher frequency and degree of said spirantization and higher rate of retention of such otherwise-lost consonants, so we can conclude the Spanish-like spirantization was already present in the proto-Romance Vulgar Latin but we can't be sure on how old this development actually is, IIRC even proto-Italic is sometimes reconstructed as possessing these as separate phonemes. Kinda the same thing as with Greek, it's also barely known if they were influencing each other on this process.
>mistake of projecting
There might be some inconveniences in terms as for "dark" vs. "velarized" vs. "hard" etc. but practically they all describe the same entity that's well-accepted and conventional in study of Latin phonology.
>don't think we can know
I understand your thought but it looks to radically uncertain. Latin is not Mongolian, we know the boundaries of its possible phonemes and can restrict them even further up to having only small circle of possibilities with the most solid evidence of which it's kinda even to finally choose due to each having its arguments.

[Anonymous No.23510754]

I don't know why you people are bothering to try and convince plebs as to the utility of the Classical languages. Just let them live and die in their ignorance. Such is the fate they were born to; that is what their capacity reveals.

[Anonymous No.23511056]

>>23507946
finished it too
he uses Greek astu at some point to refer to Athens, I guess that is the equivalent of Romans using urbs to denote their main city

[Anonymous No.23512057]

>>23511056
Great to hear that, I wonder how many anons are still doing the reading group.

[Anonymous No.23512102]

>>23510754
They're meant to be elitist languages anyways!

[Anonymous No.23512105]

>>23512057
I got a bit thrown off by work+all the weird thread drama. What have we read so far?

[Anonymous No.23512113]

>>23512105
Nepos biographies:
We did miltiades last week, this week we are reading themistocles.

You can easily catch up, It's not much.

[Anonymous No.23512195]

The Maurice Robinson New Testament reading is so bad it's not even funny. Listen to like 1 minute to see what I mean. It's like he was trying to sound as American as possible. The only good NT recording is the Polis Institute one but only a few books are recorded. Other than that it's just modern Greek pronunciation and this.

[Anonymous No.23512203]

I read all Latin texts in Ecclesiastical and all Greek texts in Erasmian. Kill Luke Ranieri and his followers and pull a Qin Shi Huang on his channel.

[Anonymous No.23512219]

>>23512203
>church latin

[Anonymous No.23512227]

>>23512203
I have my own idiosyncratic pronunciation because I have never met another human being who knows any Latin or Greek and only read and talk to myself.

[Anonymous No.23512231]

>>23512113
Oh ok, I'll try and catch up over this weekend then

[Anonymous No.23512235]

>>23512203
for me it's the modern Greek pronunciation. iii iiii iii i i ii ii ii iiii iii

[Anonymous No.23512259]

>>23512219
Better than weni widi viki. It actually sounds like a real language and you can listen to modern Italians for pointers instead of being a dead Anglo-German academic reconstruction, and it has a living history.

[Anonymous No.23512263]

>>23512235
Modern Greek sounds so nice but I just can't get over the iotacism. Seems like it would make learning vocabulary a nightmare.

[Anonymous No.23512348]

>>23512259
>w sound bad because.... IT JUST IS OK?

[Anonymous No.23512352]

>>23512259
Classical Latin was, in fact, how the Romans spoke; there are some fine phonetic details we can't be sure about, but /w/ for the consonantal value of U/V, and /k/ for C in all positions, are pretty certain (we literally have a comment from a grammarian at the time to the effect that C retains its value before all vowels)

[Anonymous No.23512366]

>>23512263
I'm pretty sure English has more ways to spell the same sound- meet, meat, mete, key, be, people, piece, happy, machine...

[Anonymous No.23512385]

>>23512263
If your Ancient Greek is very good you can effectively treat it like a related language, the same way your English and Greek vocabularies feed each other. Juggling pronunciations is not that difficult.
The real problem with Modern Greek is talking to Greeks.

[Anonymous No.23512394]

>>23512352
If we still had ancient Romans around today I would support classical, but we don't. It's just the blind leading the blind, and 95% of the time people who use classical just sound like they're speaking Latin with whatever their native language's pronunciation is. Whereas with Ecclesiastical we can listen to actual Italians and model our pronunciation on how they speak.

[Anonymous No.23512398]

>>23512366
Which is why I'm glad I'm not ESL

[Anonymous No.23512401]

>>23512398
ESL.

[Anonymous No.23512408]

>>23512394
Why Italian in particular, and not just the traditional pronunciation of whatever your native language is (or whatever European vernacular you're most fluent in if your native language isn't European)?

[Anonymous No.23512413]

I pronounce Latin as they pronounced it in 17th century Poland and Greek using 14th century Pontic Greek pronunciation.

[Anonymous No.23512414]

>>23512408
That's fine too; I just think Italian sounds nice, and they're the descendants of the Romans.

[Anonymous No.23512492]

I pronounce Classical Chinese as pinyin spelling with Puerto Rican Spanish phonetics.
學而時習之不亦說乎
[hweʝer 'hi.hi.hi βu.ʝi'ɟʝwe u]
Tengo el mejor chinés jajaja

[Anonymous No.23512552]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMfnw6oBq9w
For me, it's the restored Burger pronunciation.

[Anonymous No.23512580]

>>23512552
How awful. he sounds like a high school Latin student who doesn't give a fuck and is just trying to pass the class

[Anonymous No.23512944]

>>23512203
Weak bait, it's the most awkward combination possible. May copy this >>23512413 one next time.
>>23512259
Weak bait again. Isn't Portuguese a real language? Yet it's pretty much like Classical Latin supposedly sounded like.
>>23512352
This.
>>23512394
>>23512408
>>23512414
Italian is the least phonetically conservative Romance language, you'd better off reading Latin like Romanian lmao.

[Anonymous No.23513047]

I pronounce Italian in reconstructed
Da Vinkee

[Anonymous No.23513097]

>muh meter

[Anonymous No.23513123]

>>23513097
Yes.

[Anonymous No.23513185]

>>23512944
>Italian is the least phonetically conservative Romance language
French?

[Anonymous No.23513202]

>>23513185
Forgot about this nigga. Its consonants fairly resemble those of Italian though, the mess is with the vowels.

[Anonymous No.23513221]

>>23512944
What a statement.
Afaik all romance languages diverge in different ways and that Italian is no different in this regard. But least conservative? Please back this up.

[Anonymous No.23513231]

>>23512944
>Yet it's [Portuguese] pretty much like Classical Latin supposedly sounded like.
Maybe the northern accents in Portugal; but otherwise I'd say that the statement is a bit hyperbolic.

[Anonymous No.23513237]

>>23512944
>>23513221
The least conservative is definitely French or something like Romansh

[Anonymous No.23513256]

>>23512552
That's dekaglossai - I miss him

[Anonymous No.23513293]

>>23513231
Yes, exactly. It has nasal vowels (all, unlike French), retracted S (though somewhat too retracted), "dark" L (alongside Romanian), and fricative intervocalic B, G, and D (these are controversial but very likely). Basically just change C to /k/ from /s/ and here's your Classical Latin.

[Anonymous No.23513306]

>>23512552
u have to be ethnically southern european or hispanic to speak Latin well. them's the rules. ytbois just can't do it

[Anonymous No.23513310]

>>23513306
>or hispanic
Nice try Hose.

[Anonymous No.23513311]

Imagine not using the Ranieri-Goodfellas (TM) pronunciation and reading it like a New York Itayin.

[Anonymous No.23513315]

>>23513310
As in 75%+ white not some Yucatan Indian creatura.

[Anonymous No.23513318]

>>23513311
Why does the bald man use "light" L btw?

[Anonymous No.23513326]

>>23513318
Because that's exactly how the ancient Romans spoke. God sent Luke Ranieri (PBUH) a vision of Cicero giving an oration.
>Captcha: TRVKE

[Anonymous No.23513337]

Why does ευ in words like γραμματεύς or ἱερεύς contract to εω in the genitive? Why does the same thing occur in the genitive of πόλις, πόλεως?
I looked at several vowel contraction charts online and they were unhelpful.

[Anonymous No.23513349]

>>23513326
Cicero actually write down some tips on pronunciation THOUGH.

[Anonymous No.23513361]

NOVUM

>>23513360
>>23513360
>>23513360

[Anonymous No.23513373]

>>23513361
Ignore this retard, real thread up in a minute

[Anonymous No.23513384]

>>23513337
Alternative stem eta + os becoming ews through quantitative metathesis

[Anonymous No.23513390]

>>23513373
Dilate

[Anonymous No.23513391]

Actual new thread, non-nazi edition. Ignore the retard troll above
>>23513389
>>23513389
>>23513389

[Anonymous No.23513396]

>>23513384
Oh I see. Any way to tell if a word will be affected by this in the genitive?

[Anonymous No.23513533]

>>23513391
Stop spamming. So annoying.