/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23487659]

so what exactly are your problems with Vajrayana Buddhism

[Anonymous No.23487662]

It's just not Judaism.

[Anonymous No.23488312]

>>23487662
But that is a good thing.

[Anonymous No.23488321]

>>23487659

[Anonymous No.23488395]

>>23488321
It was just a joke, the Dalai Lama is based.

[Anonymous No.23488405]

>>23488395
Did you actually watch the vid? He let his intrusive thoughts take over.
>"Suck my tongue."
Guarantee if anyone did that to one of your little ones, nieces, nephews, brothers, sisters, you'd be outraged.

[Anonymous No.23488410]

>>23487659
Nothing, Wagner, under divine inspiration, brought it to the West in the music drama of Tristan und Isolde, and his philosophical emendations to Schopenhauer's (predominantly Theravada) system.

>For it is a matter of demonstrating a path of salvation recognised by none of the philosophers, particularly not by Sch., the pathway to complete pacification of the Will through love, and that no abstract love of mankind, but the love which actually blossoms from the soil of sexual love, i.e. from the affection between man and woman. It is conclusive, that I am able to use for this (as philosopher, not as poet, since as such I have my own) the terminology which Sch. himself supplies me. The exposition leads very deep and far, for it embraces a preciser explanation of the state in which we become able to apprehend Ideas, as also of that of Genius (Genialitaf), which I no longer conceive as a state of disengagement of the intellect from the will, but rather as an enhancement of the intellect of the individual to a cognitive organ of the race itself (Erkenntnissorgan der Gattung), thus of the Will as Thing-in-itself; whence alone, moreover, is to be explained that strange enthusiastic joyfulness and rapture in the supreme moments of genial cognition which Sch. seems hardly to know, as he can find it [i.e. that mode of cognition] only in repose and in the silencing of the individual passions. Quite analogously to this conception, I then arrive with greatest certainty at proving in Love a possibility of attaining to that exaltation above the instinct of the individual will where, after complete subjection of this latter, the racial will comes to full consciousness of itself; which upon this height is necessarily tantamount to complete pacification. All this will be made clear even to the inexperienced, if my statement succeeds; whilst the result cannot but be very significant, and entirely and satisfactorily fill the gaps in Schopenhauer's system.

After playing the third act of Siegfried, Wagner stated:
>The kiss of love is the first intimation of death, the cessation of individuality, that is why a person is so terrified by it.

This is core Vajrayana philosophy, for those that are initiated.

[Anonymous No.23488699]

>>23488410
Wagners Protestantism boils down in the end to mushy and sappy sentimentalism about love while Tibetan Buddhism is generally a path of gnosis.

[Anonymous No.23488740]

>>23488699
Wrong, you have misunderstood the deeply systematic nature of Wagner's philosophical investigations, likely due to your own insecure reaction to the heartfelt proclamations of love. You should know, the only truly reliable source for Wagner's ideas is his own writings, which you clearly have not read. If I had only read Reasons Not to Worry: How to be Stoic in chaotic times, which is the equivalent of the junk information you have probably picked up about Wagner, then I would not consider myself an expert on Stoic thought.

[Anonymous No.23489500]

>>23488405
I've done that and my niece loved it

[Anonymous No.23489677]

>>23488405
He's an old man with limited english skills. I remember a tibetan dude explaining that he was trying to translate a tibetan phrase that has an innocent playful connotation

[Anonymous No.23489710]

>>23489677
Even so, I'm pretty sure vinaya rules do not permit you to make any kind of bodily contact with others. Even a handshake would be an offense. Of course since he's vajrayani, the word "vinaya" basically never came up when that scandal happened.

[Anonymous No.23489814]

>>23487659
Probably life rejecting isolationist nonsense

[Anonymous No.23489836]

>>23487659
>Some Vajrayāna rituals traditionally included the use of certain taboo substances, such as blood, semen, alcohol and urine, as ritual offerings and sacraments. Tantric feasts and initiations sometimes employed substances like human flesh as noted by Kahha's Yogaratnamala.
>Vajrayāna rituals also include sexual yoga, union with a physical consort as part of advanced practices. Some tantras go further, the Hevajra tantra states "You should kill living beings, speak lying words, take what is not given, consort with the women of others".
>In India, there is evidence to show that women participated in tantric practice alongside men and were also teachers, adepts and authors of tantric texts.

[Anonymous No.23489992]

Guru said id get enlightened if he creampied my wife but I dont feel any different!

[Anonymous No.23490035]

>>23489992
Many such cases.

[Anonymous No.23490085]

>>23489710
Monks who practice Vajrayana still follow vinaya

[Anonymous No.23490585]

>>23489992
That only works once

[Anonymous No.23491327]

>>23489710
Mahayana and Vajrayana allow non-Monks to become enlightened. Vajrayana branch specifically allows non-monks(gurus/yogis) and they also form their own branch/lineage.

The confusion is that Theravada is strictly a monastic order, the lay are cattles that cannot help themselves. Mahayana opens the path for lays but is still a monastic order. Vajrayana opens up the door for individualized breakthroughs, which opens the door for few non-monastic meditators/gurus/yogis/etc but is still largely a monastic order.

People tie the non-monastics practices with monastic practice and conflate the two, the two are separate paths.

[Anonymous No.23491848]

>>23491327
>Mahayana and Vajrayana allow non-Monks to become enlightened
Enlightenment is not a question of who allows you to do it, it's a question of whether you can genuinely do it. Theravada takes the entirely comprehensible stance that laymen can technically be enlightened (as there are instances in the suttas) but, because of all the duties and distractions inherent to lay life, as a practical matter it's extremely rare. It seems to me that the Mahayana teaching that laymen are just as if not more capable of enlightenment as monks, that a Vimalakirti can run circles around the historical arahants, is basically just a big cope with no basis in practical reality. I recognize that Mahayana wouldn't be nearly the historical phenomenon it was if it didn't concede that as a selling point, but it goes without saying that we should prize truth over popularity.

[Anonymous No.23492026]

>>23487659
Just the fact that Buddhists haven't invented anything interesting in centuries.

[Anonymous No.23492453]

>>23491848
Enlightenment in Mahayana still requires extensive practice, you can see this readings texts on the paths and stages. It takes three asamkhya kalpas to achieve Buddhahood. Because of this, Mahayana was still a very monastic tradition in India and Tibet. When Mahayana sutras depict laymen like Vimalakirti having greater wisdom and accomplishment than monastic arhats, it's really just to criticize clinging to monasticism as inherently superior or necessary.

[Anonymous No.23492487]

>>23491848
>Theravada takes the entirely comprehensible stance that laymen can technically be enlightened
Theravada also has Bodhisattvas, but has practically zero value in Theravada. So its irrelevant. For the principle Theravada, all the common folks can do is die and hope for a better rebirth, even then they know its more of a delusion.
>It seems to me that the Mahayana teaching that laymen are just as if not more capable of enlightenment as monks
No only lay who are specially tuned to the Buddhist/selfless way but aren't robed. 99.99% of lays dont practice anything and can only hope for better path, particularly some hope a boddhisattva can guide them to pureland and there would be some path towards enlightenment there.

[Anonymous No.23492830]

>>23487659
It's buddhism instead of outright shaivism.

[Anonymous No.23492840]

>>23487659
>so what exactly are your problems with Vajrayana Buddhism
If you meet the Buddha on the road: kill him.

[Anonymous No.23493380]

>>23487659
It's not Dzogchen

[Anonymous No.23493403]

Mahayana texts are generally intended for people with little capacity for understanding, or for people who do not have much ethical capacity.

One of the recurring themes, for example, is the idea of "the end of the law", in which people would not even be able to follow the precepts. Thus, the texts offer easier and more available practices for these people.

The hearers' vehicle would be more suited to those who have wisdom inclinations, greater personal abilities, etc.

This is why Mahayanists often have lay people teaching them, as is the case with the Vimalakirti Sutra and the Perfect Wisdom Sutra.
Including lay people who can't stop being awful, full of lust and hatred, in order to kill Buddhism from the inside.

[Anonymous No.23493579]

>>23493403
>people with little capacity for understanding, or for people who do not have much ethical capacity.
Read Tsongkhapa

[Anonymous No.23493619]

>>23488321
>>23489836
May I introduce you to the real Vajrayana king, Kukai?

[Anonymous No.23493986]

>>23493403
nobody cares what a monk thinks about their personal life. if he thinks anything, he's not monking hard enough anyway.

[Anonymous No.23494551]

>>23489992
Feelings, according to this sutta, are not self: https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN22_59.html

[Anonymous No.23495590]

>>23491327
Vajrayana sounds pretty based

[Anonymous No.23496819]

>>23489677
COPE

[Anonymous No.23497515]

>>23489677
This, it was literally a misunderstanding.

[Anonymous No.23497530]

>>23489677
>that he was trying to translate a tibetan phrase that has an innocent playful connotation
He was only translating a phrase, he wuz a good boi and dindu nuffin, that's why he leaned his head forward towards the boy until he was mere inches away and then stuck out his tongue, and then repeated the instruction when the boy got scared and hesitated.

[Anonymous No.23498093]

>>23488410
I am very interested in Wagner and religion. I've read his work on Religion and Art, The Tristan Chord, and other essays by Bryan Magee. Are there any other recommendations you, or others, could provide?

[Anonymous No.23498208]

>>23488410
only npcs listen to german bourgeois

[Anonymous No.23499456]

>>23488410
Where did Wagner learn about Buddhism?

[Anonymous No.23499713]

>>23491848
Wait until you discover what enlightenment really is

[Anonymous No.23499858]

>>23498093
Magee is a useful introduction, but he's very basic and you have to move beyond him. I recommend:

Baudelaire's Richard Wagner and Tannhauser in Paris, Nietzsche's The Birth of Tragedy, Untimely Meditations, Mallarme's Divagations, Dahlhaus's Richard Wagner's Music Dramas, Borchmeyer's Richard Wagner: Theory and Theatre, Joyce and Wagner: A Study of Influence, Athena Sings, The Quest for the Gesamtkunstwerk, Evil Genius: Constructing Wagner as Moral Pariah, Death-Devoted Heart and Modern Culture by Roger Scruton (I don't really like his books on the Ring and Parsifal, but they're there if you're interested), Wagner's Ring and the Germanic Tradition, The New Wagnerian. Also if you can speak German there's more writings by Dieter Borchmeyer and other German academics like Joachim Kaiser untranslated. Also the performance-lectures of Jeffrey Swann and Stefan Mickisch. I haven't been able to find many translations of the latter's recorded lectures, but there's videos of his Ring lectures on youtube that has subs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkAATgUHVI8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cL25ZMYFEcU

There are countless more, since Wagner is one of the most written about individuals in history, but these are some of the ones I've read and found valuable.

[Anonymous No.23500834]

>>23499858
Thank you, sincerely. This is helpful and substantive. I appreciate your contribution.

As someone who deeply appreciates Wagner's work and vision and is currently struggling with my own faith these sources are of great use.

[Anonymous No.23501184]

>>23497530
This is so silly and sad. You should focus your attention on the real powerful pedophiles/hebephiles/ephebophiles like Jeffrey Epstein and Maxwell and their ring (including as powerful or well-known people as Bill Clinton and Prince Andrew, besides plausibly many others in politics, Hollywood, and big corporations).

All I see here is an old man from a different culture being playful. Nothing bad or traumatizing happened to kid, it was a clear joke. I don’t know, maybe it’s just that I easily see my own (late) grandpa easily doing something like that as a joke when I was a child. Your own mind is in the gutter for interpreting it like that.

Regardless, the Dalai Lama is not necessarily even the most sophisticated or highest-level exemplar of Tibetan Buddhism. The Dalai Lama simply represents the Gelugpa or Yellow Hat monastery of Tibetan Buddhism. The situation of Tibetan Buddhism is actually in some ways rather more complex and decentralized than something like, say, the structure of the Roman Catholic Church/Vatican.

There are other schools like the “Black Hat” Tibetan Buddhists, or Karma Kagyu school, who moreover have monasteries and adherents spread out throughout many adjacent countries like Mongolia, India, Nepal, Bhutan, even some in Russia, and their head is the Gyalwa Karmapa, not the Dalai Lama. Then you also have the Nyingma and Sakya schools as the other major schools of Tibetan Buddhism. (Although they all more or less interact respectfully with each other; simply sometimes having different practices or interpretations of philosophy). Besides that, there is a wealth of historical Tibetan Buddhist literature and philosophy from figures like Marpa, Milarepa, Naropa and Tilopa and Gampopa, or even going back to those supposedly written or inspired by Padmasambhava and his consort Yeshe Tsogyal, and that silly little controversy has no bearing on them. The Dalai Lama is a drop in the ocean of Tibetan Buddhism and he’s more like the most publicized and palatable face of it to the West, he may not even necessarily get deeper into the esotericism of Tibetan Buddhism like other lamas or Tibetan meditation masters might, and it also admittedly may be true, that from his fame and mingling with the West, he has become somewhat corrupted into being a pseudo-political figure, aiding the CIA’s/US’s soft propaganda and culture war against the Chinese, besides mingling once with groups like NXIVM and other corrupt organizations because of the lure of fame and money in the West. I can admit this, but I don’t see him being a pedophile just from that silly short playful video; nor do I necessarily even view him as consciously malevolent or corrupted, it’s just that perhaps he’s gotten a little seduced by the Western form of “Mara”.

[Anonymous No.23501233]

>>23487659
It provides you all the mental discipline necessary to bring you to the cusp of the western occult tradition that non evil people desperately need to find, then tells them to sit around and do nothing useful instead of tsking up the mantle of heaven.

[Anonymous No.23501363]

>>23501233
The bodhisattva path isn't "doing nothing"

[Anonymous No.23501370]

>>23487659
It's made up nonsense

[Anonymous No.23501426]

>>23500834
I am delighted I could help you anon! If anything can preserve our faith, it is the living tradition of classical music:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXItznePeFI

>The only really effective apologia for Christianity comes down to two arguments, namely the saints the Church has produced and the art which has grown in her womb.
- Pope Benedict XVI

>Religion has assumed flesh and blood in a way quite different from these dogmatic forms—music, that is the direct product of Christianity, as is the saint, like Saint Francis of Assisi, who compensates for the whole church as well as for the whole world.
- Wagner

[Anonymous No.23501500]

>>23501184
Good, informed response. This also captures well my thoughts, and frequent disappointments with, the Dalai Lama. Unfortunately in my area the only Buddhist schools that are active are some sort of Zen/Chan, an "online only" Therevada of some stripe, which seems to meet via Zoom to discuss pop psychology books, and FPMT, the popular Gelugpa group here in the US. My own experience with FPMT has been positive, but the Dalai Lama does not inspire me the same way he seems to do so for so many others.
>>23488395
This is one conversation I wish I could have heard. Assuming they even engaged in serious conversation.
>>23501426
If I may ask: what faith do you profess?

[Anonymous No.23501520]

>>23501184
The Dalai Lama himself says he's just a man with no special powers or knowledge, so I guess one should just regard him as a scholar of his tradition and accept that he's as flawed as any other dude. Dunno how that works with him supposedly being a bodhisattva in the Tibetan lore.

[Anonymous No.23501606]

>>23487659
Why do people only care about Tibetan Vajrayana? What about Shingon or Tendai/Tiantai?

>>23493619
Everything I read about his version of Buddhism makes it sound like monotheism or classical theism of some sort, which I'm not against but sounds weird to me coming from Buddhists. Even from their website:
http://www.shingon.org/deities/jusanbutsu/dainichi.html
>Mahâvairocana Buddha is the overall main deity of worship, and is the fundamental buddha in Shingon Buddhism.
>The Mandalas indicate that all things emerge from and are nourished by the life force of Mahâvairocana, who maintains the powerful creation and operation of the universe. A main teaching of Shingon Buddhism is that we human beings also have the buddha nature and the life force of Mahâvairocana.

[Anonymous No.23501855]

>>23501606
Because it's much more accessible in the west

[Anonymous No.23501860]

>>23501606
The Adibuddha is just your own mindstream. Read this.

[Anonymous No.23501994]

>>23501606
Tibetan Buddhism is accessible because of the diasporic communities post-1951. Tiantai, Tendai, and Shingon are less so because of their relatively small immigrant communities.

I'm a Shingon practitioner and I've got my BA in religious studies. I'm working on a huge reading list for Buddhism that is modeled off of the philosophy project. Hopefully it'll be presentable in a month or two.

[Anonymous No.23502208]

>>23501860
Yes, that’s what Tibetan Buddhism says, but its not clear if Shingon agrees

[Anonymous No.23502260]

>>23487659
> so what exactly are your problems with Vajrayana Buddhism
That it’s wrong about the Atman purportedly not existing or being a fiction, although this is also an issue with almost all types of Buddhism. Some Vajrayana teachings get sort of close to it though and contain a grain of truth despite what they get wrong.

[Anonymous No.23502785]

>>23501994
Make sure to post in this thread!

[Anonymous No.23502987]

>>23501994
Have you read any of the available Tibetan classics from Tsongkhapa?

Idk if its too technical but Shingon should technically have the same baseline core as Tsongkhapa's readings.

[Anonymous No.23503477]

>>23502785
If you're interested in Shingon, the following will be of interest.
Avatamsaka Sutra; Vairocanabhisambodhi Sutra, Two Esoteric Sutras, Shingon Texts, and Esoteric Texts from the BDK English Tripitaka; Kukai: Major Works; Tantric Buddhism in East Asia by Payne; Language in the Buddhist Tantra of Japan: Indic Roots of Mantra by Payne; and Shingon: Japanese Esoteric Buddhism by Yamasaki.

>>23502987
I know less about Tibetan Buddhism. I'm more versed in Sino-Japanese esoteric Buddhism because I speak Mandarin and have a handle of Classical Chinese. I see that Tsongkhapa is keen on deity yoga, which is central to Shingon.

[Anonymous No.23503631]

>>23502260
What is even the real distinction between Atman and Buddha Nature anyway?

[Anonymous No.23503712]

>>23488321
This is so funny

[Anonymous No.23503881]

>>23503631
Buddha nature is emptiness

[Anonymous No.23504039]

Is it true that you are redeemed simply by saying om mani padle hum?

[Anonymous No.23504281]

>>23488321

SUK

[Anonymous No.23504367]

>>23504039
There's no redemption in buddhism

[Anonymous No.23504496]

>>23504367
There is in tibetan buddhism

[Anonymous No.23504687]

>>23504496
No

[Anonymous No.23505274]

>>23504687
>The gist of the Mahayanic teachings was as follows: [...] (7) A doctrine that salvation can be gained by having faith in a Buddha, and calling on his name;
from The Religion of Tibet by Sir Charles Bell, 1931

[Anonymous No.23505308]

>>23505274
This is wrong. In all schools of buddhism liberation can only come from within by cultivating insight. The only way Buddhas can actually benefit beings is by teaching them the path.

[Anonymous No.23505345]

>>23505308
Yeah... Im gonna go with the actual tibetologist who was a close friend of the 13th dalai lama instead of some guy on 4chan

[Anonymous No.23505386]

>>23505345
Does he cite any primary sources to support his claim?

[Anonymous No.23505395]

>>23487659
if you don't believe that Jesus Christ is God then you are wrong.

[Anonymous No.23505398]

>>23505386
Authentic thermas revealed to him while practicing yoga of dreams

[Anonymous No.23506065]

>>23505274
I feel wary of Tibetology that old. It's inevitably mired in language that derives from a Christian worldview, whether the person is Christian or not. If it's anything like my field, Sinology, resources are more 'western' the older they are. Additionally, his books seem to not be cited that often, especially in contemporary scholarship.

[Anonymous No.23506138]

>>23487659
Dzogchen seemed interesting at first but the rest of what they do involves literal demons so no thanks

[Anonymous No.23506320]

>>23506138
>the rest of what they do involves literal demons
No it doesn't, apart from subjugating them to guard the Dharma

[Anonymous No.23506447]

>>23505308
>In all schools of buddhism liberation can only come from within by cultivating insight
In the original teachings, yes, and in some surviving schools like Zen and Theravada, yes, but not "all" schools, not by a long shot.

[Anonymous No.23506527]

>>23506447
It's true of all schools. It even applies to pure land, because birth in Sukhavati is not liberation, you still have to practice the path on your own.

[Anonymous No.23506739]

>>23505308
>The only way Buddhas can actually benefit beings is by teaching them the path.
I remember reading that at least for some interpretations of Jodo Shinshu you have to believe entirely in the "other power" of the buddha Amitabha, and the pure land is the same as nirvana.

[Anonymous No.23506755]

>>23506739
Yeah, Jodo Shin relies on Other Power. It's a complete giving up of personal act towards enlightenment because of their interpretation of the Latter Day of Dharma. Juzu Nembutsu is my favorite of the Jodo schools. They recite nembutsu for the whole world's benefit, not their own personal. Jack shit English resources on them, though.

[Anonymous No.23506964]

>>23506447
zen is not s surviving school

[Anonymous No.23507321]

240616 The Karma of Meditation \ \ Thanissaro Bhikkhu \ \ Dhamma Talk
https://youtu.be/yExF3-hqL44

240617 Training for Dispassion \ \ Thanissaro Bhikkhu \ \ Dhamma Talk
https://youtu.be/4gQ6JTI83Sc

[Anonymous No.23507710]

>>23488410
>the cessation of individuality
How is this different from the will to die for a greater cause, to die for one's family or such acts of selflessness? It seems like the cessation of individuality through love is a subset of a more general phenomenon.

[Anonymous No.23507735]

>>23487659

https://www.dhammatalks.org/suttas/SN/SN20_7.html

Staying near Sāvatthī. “Monks, there once was a time when the Dasārahas had a large drum called ‘Summoner.’ Whenever Summoner was split, the Dasārahas inserted another peg in it, until the time came when Summoner’s original wooden body had disappeared and only a conglomeration of pegs remained. [The Commentary notes that the drum originally could be heard for twelve leagues, but in its final condition couldn’t be heard even from behind a curtain.]

“In the same way, in the course of the future there will be monks who won’t listen when discourses that are words of the Tathāgata—deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness—are being recited. They won’t lend ear, won’t set their hearts on knowing them, won’t regard these teachings as worth grasping or mastering. But they will listen when discourses that are literary works—the works of poets, elegant in sound, elegant in rhetoric, the work of outsiders, words of disciples—are recited. They will lend ear and set their hearts on knowing them. They will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.

“In this way the disappearance of the discourses that are words of the Tathāgata—deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness—will come about.

“Thus you should train yourselves: ‘We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathāgata—deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness—are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.’ That’s how you should train yourselves.”

[Anonymous No.23507875]

>>23487659
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/BuddhistRomanticism/Section0005.html

1) Of all the various sources of the Buddha’s teachings, the Pāli suttas—together with the Pāli Vinaya, or monastic rules—seem by far to be the closest record we have of the Buddha’s teachings.

1) No evidence contemporary with the Buddha contradicts anything found in the Pāli Canon.

2) Mahāyāna and Vajrayāna texts presuppose the teachings found in the Pāli Canon, but the Pāli Canon doesn’t presuppose the teachings found in them.

3) Where the Pāli Canon can be compared with fragments of other early canons, we find that many elements included in those other canons were often kept out of the Pāli Canon and placed instead in the commentaries that grew up around it. This suggests that the people who maintained the Pāli Canon, beginning at least at some point in time, tried to be scrupulous in drawing a clear line between what they had received from tradition and what was novel in their day and age.

So it seems reasonable to take the Pāli Canon as the best available primary source for learning what the Buddha taught.

[Anonymous No.23507892]

>>23506065
It's not a scholalry book for one. It's part of a popular series about Tibet. Kind of ridiculous on your part though to suggest that this guy who spoke Tibetan, lived for some time in Tibet and Sikkim, and who was a friend of the dalai lama and the king of Bhutan somehow didnt knew the fundamentals of the religion practised his area of expertise.

[Anonymous No.23508104]

>>23507875
Mark, Mathhew, Luke and the letters of Paul are the best primary sources we have on the life of the historical Jesus, but only a Christian would say they're actually reliable. I don't see why anyone should take a selection of materials written down many centuries after the life of Siddhartha Gautama to be reliable either. The very text quoted in the preceding posts seems more like a sectarian polemic aimed at rival Buddhist groups by the scholars of the Pali tradition than an authentic ancient saying.

[Anonymous No.23508165]

>>23507892
It is incorrect to summarize Mahayana Buddhism as praying to Buddha for salvation. That does exist as a practice but akin to summarizing Christianity as "attending Mass once a year on Christmas," it would be something only the least engaged adherents, or those with a minimal understanding and practice, are doing, and by itself is just a reminder of what you are supposed to be doing.
>>23508104
It's an external critique to be sure, and only carries weight for the Theravadin, the historian, the philologist. Mahayana itself is aware its additional sutra collections and commentaries were not preached with the nikaya or agama discourses, and many of these are treated as divine revelation anyway. So the Theravadin can agree they were not earthly or bodily teachings from Siddartha, the historian that they were composed at a later date, the philologist that they are Sanskrit, Chinese, Tibetan etc. original works, but this says nothing regarding their value as Mahayana or Vajrayana religious and philosophical literature, only that they are not "original Buddhism as the historical Buddha taught his original disciples," which again, is not something actually disputed by the Mahayanists, as they have different legitimating criteria than Theravadins.

[Anonymous No.23508578]

1) It's outdated in relation to the contemporary world.
The central element of Vajrayana Buddhism - an element that is present from the lowest tantra to the simple loftiness of Dzogchen, which could exist without it - is the creation and completion practice. The creation stage involves visualizing yourself as an omnipotent deity at the centre of a mandala who command Buddhas and bodhisattavas placed in every geographical direction, the mandala being the spiritual equivalent of a typical medieval feudal kingdom, that is, the ruler at the centre, vassals at all sides, guardians at the margins.
The practitioner visualizes and then LARPs as the ruler of a mandalas which symbolizes the whole world; in other words, the practitioner imagines himself to be the absolute god.
This model originates in the medieval Hindu political milieu and was sold to the manifold rules as a way to become a god and have absolute power. Later, this model entered Tibet in the dark ages after the fall and helped found the feudal system which in the end led to the Gelug theocracy.
For the social history of Tantric Buddhism see both books by Ronald Davidson.
2) Vajrayana, and tantra in general, is as much about power as about enlightenment.
The tantric promise of godhood, power, led to its popularity among the rulers of medieval India who helped spread its influence on the subcontinent.
The Vajrayana initiations, wherein the initiate is given a regal symbol each step, mirrored the secular coronation ceremony.
The sexual element - the consumption of menstrual blood and female sexual liquids - originally was a way to achieve the power of the goddess. Only later, under the influence of learned religious teachers, it acquires soteriological dimensions.
For he history of the sexual element, mainly in Hindu tantra with some forays into Buddhist proper, read Gordon White The Kiss Of The Yogini.
And the most protected element of tantra was mantra, not sex, because the knowledge of the mantra gives access to the power of the absolute godhead: you imagine yourself as the central god, you repeat the mantra that is the essence of the central god, you become the god and gain all of the god's powers. Hence, the syllables of the mantras were often hidden in cryptographic fashion in the tantras (Chakrasamvara tantra, for example).
3) Abuse of power by the authoritative guru
Vajrayana places extreme emphasis on the figure of the teacher. Some Kagyu text outright equates the teacher with the Buddha and that, in case every other method fails, worship of the teacher would always lead to enlightenment. The guru is to be always obeyed because he's living proof of buddhahood.
The results of such an education are visible in the Vajrayana teachers beginning with Chogyam Trungpa (alcoholism, physical abuse, sexual abuse).

[Anonymous No.23508583]

>>23508578
This particular issue is pertinent to women who can end up being a tantric consort for the teacher and then discarded once their function is exhausted due to the nature of the relationship - that of an instrument for the male to achieve certain exalted states of consciousness.
Some tantras (Chakrasamvara, translated by Gray) and some teachers (Dhyargey (?) commentary on Kalachakra) recommend using 12 year old girls.
There was a book, written by a woman academic, about the sexual misconduct of Vajrayana teachers, but I can't remember its name.
For a batshit /pol/tier feminist criticism of Vajrayana, read Trimondi The Shadow Of The Dalai Lama.
4) An inherent paradox in the philosophical structure of the school
Vajrayana follows the tathagatagarbha doctrine - everyone is a buddha deep down - and states about the essential purity and emptiness and clarity of the world, but in order to understand your essential buddhahood, which is what you are at every time and in every action, you must find a an authoritative teacher, follow him to a T, and perform complex visual exercises and repeat mantras ad nauseam.
Dzogchen and Mahamudra bypass these issues by the virtue of the practice, yet their structure is still autocratic, with the democratic and essentially anarchic insight being granted by an authoritative figure by a submissive pupil, in the old times to the submissive pupil who managed to propitiate the guru by gifts.
5) The sexual elements
The oldest strata of the Buddhist teaching says you can't achieve enlightenment if you have sex, in any shape or form. If you are caught engaged in any sexual activity whatsoever, you must be expunged from the sangha. The only exception was rape by females.
Vajrayana didn't and doesn't shun sex because, according to tantras, sexual activity properly conducted leads to the same involution of the mind-body complex that happens as death and thus can facilitate the realization of one's true nature: a practical conclusion to the everything is already enlightened doctrine.
The problem here is twofold:
a) is the original Buddhism philosophically right, or is Vajrayana the correct version?
b) the issue of vows
It must be said that second introduction of Buddhism by Atisha had the motive of restoring a somewhat "pure" Buddhism into a country fallen into degeneracy due to tantra, that is, monks breaking vows.
Snellgrove’s Indo-Tibetan Buddhism is a very old book, but the author takes a critical attitude toward Vajrayana, so if you’re interested in an old and critical view of Vajrayana, you should read it.

[Anonymous No.23508591]

>>23508583
6) That normies regard Vajrayana as somehow pure, spiritual, not unlike Christianity.
The popularity of Vajrayana is due to an erroneus view ignited by coal of theosophy and fed by the oil of New-Age: the view that Tibet is a pure land of mysticism and spirituality. For a foreigner Vajrayana feels exotic, a breath of fresh air compared to Christianity said foreigner is surrounded with, but the more you study the more you realize that Vajrayana is as backward as Islam and Catholicism. It's a faith of the feudal age living somehow in the contemporary world, it's only plus being that, unlike Christianity and Islam, some of its practices actually deliver some results.
My personal opinion is that some practices of Vajrayana, like Dzogchen and Mahamudra meditations, maybe even the sexual element, work, but you don’t need to swallow the whole initiation, guru worship, deity worship, mantra muttering, propaganda in order to get results. If you do mahamudra regularly, you’re as likely to reach enlightenment as a monk going through the whole rigmarole. In fact, if to look retrospectively at the history of Vajrayana Buddhism, from the kriya tantras to the mahamudra and dzogchen, it seems to me like a history of trying different methods and then as of refinement of methods - the tantras move from complex visualizations towards sexual practices focusing on physiological effects and end in awareness exercises.

[Anonymous No.23508595]

>>23507710
Because love is a profoundly instinctive activation that you can't control, meanwhile there's nothing to necessitate something of equivalent effect happening to you while working, or sacrificing yourself, for something of importance. You're confusing Vajrayana with the more typical do-good-acts method of snuffing out the flame.

[Anonymous No.23508624]

>>23508595
>>Because love is a profoundly instinctive activation that you can't control,
according to hedonistic monkeys. love can be cultivated, that's the whole point of the ascetics

[Anonymous No.23508633]

>>23508591
>My personal opinion is that some practices of Vajrayana, like Dzogchen and Mahamudra meditations, maybe even the sexual element, work, but you don’t need to swallow the whole initiation, guru worship, deity worship, mantra muttering, propaganda in order to get results. If you do mahamudra regularly, you’re as likely to reach enlightenment as a monk going through the whole rigmarole. In fact, if to look retrospectively at the history of Vajrayana Buddhism, from the kriya tantras to the mahamudra and dzogchen, it seems to me like a history of trying different methods and then as of refinement of methods - the tantras move from complex visualizations towards sexual practices focusing on physiological effects and end in awareness exercises.
It's strictly impossible to get enlightened with vajrayana because they dont have access to the buddha's insight ie dependent origination.

[Anonymous No.23508634]

>>23487659
>vajrajana
This

Its like "social" "justice". Only reason to put unpopular retarded thing like "socialism", next to a respected and time honored pillar of civilization like "justice", is in order to rehabilitate or boost the perception of the shitty thing.

Vag raygun Buddhism is the same.

[Anonymous No.23508641]

>>23508633
How do they not have this insight?

[Anonymous No.23508781]

>>23508104
Best to go with what's the most trustworthy - the oldest accounts.

[Anonymous No.23508796]

>>23508624
The point IS that you can't force a powerful instinctive effect coming from good actions into your dna. You can suppress or indulge instincts, but you can't choose what should or shouldn't be a fundamental, instinctive, aspect of human nature. Do you understand what instinct is you moron? You are so unbelievably stupid. Maybe read a bit about Vajrayana to understand what you're even arguing against?

[Anonymous No.23508845]

>>23508633
Of course they do
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-masters/khenchen-ngawang-palzang/tendrel

[Anonymous No.23508927]

>>23502208
Have you actually read Kobō Daishi? We have a basic identity with Mahāvairocana.
>>23501606
Tiantai is not Vajrayana. Tendai incorporates mikkyō but that lineage comes from Kobō Daishi and what Ennin transmitted. Not present in Chinese tiantai.

>>23503477
I don't recommend reading most of these to start out. First familiarize yourself with Mahayana doctrine and then proceed in this order:

>Kūkai: Major Works
>Shingon: Theory and Practice
>The Weaving of Mantra

Then proceed straight to Huayan. Kūkai held the Huayan school in very high regard, even higher than Tendai.

>>23504039
From the conventional perspective a single recitation of a mantra has incredible, even uncountably many merits. There's constant talk of this in the exoteric sutras; "saying this mantra once is more effective than offering the Buddha a shining gem for every grain of sand in the Ganges" and such. From an esoteric perspective a mantra is the very essence of a bodhisattva or Buddha and by reciting it single-mindedly we become united with it.

>>23507875
I can't speak for the Tibetan schools but in Shingon our lineage is traced to Mahāvairocana Buddha (Dainichi Nyorai), not Shakyamuni Buddha (Shaka Nyorai). Mahāvairocana -> Vajrasattva -> Nagarjuna -> Indo-Chinese Masters -> Huiguo -> Kūkai (Kobō Daishi).

>>23508595
I'm not reading the Wagner wall of text but the reason "snuffing out individuality through the greater good" is not the same as supreme awakening through the Lightning Vehicle is because (1) dying does not cause clinging to self to end and (2) unity with Mahāvairocana is not annihilation but something completely beyond both existence and non-existence. Dying for others is certainly a virtuous act.


Anyway. If anyone here is actually interested in Vajrayana, you CANNOT PRACTICE ALONE. You need initiation, there is no way around this. Luckily things are easier than they are a hundred years ago, and with a little bit of digging you can find teachers quite easily to give you the transmission for certain practices. It varies by tradition, but most Tibetan lineages can even give transmission online (I myself have an empowerment from the Sakya lineage for a Chenrenzig sadhana that I got through Zoom.)

For Shingon it's harder. The real esoteric stuff needs in-person teaching in Japan. There are two kanjo (initiations) every year on Mt. Koya for lay people, but to become an ajari (master) you'll need to ordain and do 100 days of intensive practice. You can find local temples to get oral transmission of mantras, though; plus instruction in ajikan and moon disk meditation. My temple does monthly goma (fire sacrifice) rites too. We live stream them and I'd link it, but I know better than to disrespect my temple than to post it here. If someone genuinely has an affinity for our tradition then they'll find something.

Namu daishi henjo kongo.

[Anonymous No.23508941]

>>23508927
>I'm not reading the Wagner wall of text but the reason "snuffing out individuality through the greater good" is not the same as supreme awakening through the Lightning Vehicle is because (1) dying does not cause clinging to self to end and (2) unity with Mahāvairocana is not annihilation but something completely beyond both existence and non-existence. Dying for others is certainly a virtuous act.
I'm failing to understand what your point is in replying with this.

[Anonymous No.23508978]

it's called VAJrayana because it's for PUSSIES

[Anonymous No.23508993]

>Intro to Buddhism (Suffering/stress[Dukkha] and the cessation/release of it [Nibbana])
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/BuddhasTeachings/Section0003.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Refuge/Contents.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/NobleStrategy/Section0000.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/KarmaOfQuestions/Section0000.html

>Meditation (To attain a pleasure removed from sensuality [jhana] & to gain insight into how stress/suffering arises so that one can be released from it [nibbana])
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/WithEachAndEveryBreath/Section0003.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/RightMindfulness/Contents.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/MindfulBody/Contents.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/MeditatorsTools/Section0000.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/mp3_collections_index.html

>Kamma/Karma & Rebirth (Intents/Actions [skillful/unskillful] lead to certain results)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/KarmaQ&A/Section0009.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/TruthOfRebirth/Section0003.html

>The Four Noble Truths
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/FourNobleTruths/Section0003.html
1 - Dukkha (suffering/stress)
2 - the Origination [of dukkha] (craving)
3 - the Cessation [of dukkha] (nibbana)
4 - the Path [to the cessation of dukkha] (eightfold path)

>[1] Aging, Illness, Death (There is Suffering)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Undaunted/Contents.html

>[2] Dependent Origination (The Origination of suffering [craving])
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/ShapeOfSuffering/Contents.html
1 - Ignorance (of the four noble truths)
2 - Fabrication (the process of intentionally shaping states of body and mind)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Discernment/Section0003.html
3 - Consciousness (at the six senses)
4 - Name-and-Form (mental and physical phenomena)
5 - Six Senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind)
6 - Contact (at the six senses)
7 - Feeling (based on contact at the six senses)
8 --- CRAVING (for sensuality, becoming, non-becoming)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Desires/Section0003.html
9 - Clinging (to sensuality, views, habits/practices, self)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/BurdenOffMind/Section0003.html
10 - Becoming (on the level of sensuality, form, formlessness)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/ParadoxOfBecoming/Section0005.html
11 - Birth (the assumption of an identity on any three levels of Becoming)
12 - Aging-and-Death (of that identity, with the suffering that it entails)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/BeyondCoping/Contents.html

>[3] Nibbana/Nirvana (Unbinding — The Cessation of suffering)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/MindLikeFire/Section0007.html
>Stream-entry (1st stage of awakening)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/IntoTheStream/Contents.html

[Anonymous No.23508999]

>>23508993
>[4] The Noble Eightfold Path (The Path to the cessation of suffering)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/OnThePath/Section0000.html
- Right View - Seeing experience in terms of the noble truths
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/SkillInQuestions/Contents.html
- Right Resolve - Being resolved on abandoning thoughts of sensuality, ill will, and harm
- Right Speech - Refraining from lying, harsh speech, divisive speech, idle chatter
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/NobleConversation/Contents.html
- Right Action - Refraining from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, recreational drugs
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Non-violence/Contents.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Merit/Contents.html
- Right Livelihood - Living in a way that minimizes harm to yourself and others
- Right Effort - Abandoning unskillful qualities and developing skillful qualities
- Right Mindfulness - Being aware and keeping skillful qualities in mind
- Right Concentration - Being secluded from sensuality and unskillful qualities which leads to a state of absorption [jhana]

>Ten Perfections (How to practice in daily life)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/TenPerfections/Section0004.html

>Brahmaviharas (goodwill, compassion, empathetic joy, equanimity)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/SublimeAttitudes/Section0003.html

>Recognizing the Dhamma
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/RecognizingTheDhamma/Contents.html

>The Wings to Awakening (The Buddha's Summary of his teachings)
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/Wings/Section0000.html

>Biography of the Buddha
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/NobleWarrior/Section0003.html

------------

>tl;dr: just give me a few books
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/BuddhasTeachings/Section0003.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/WithEachAndEveryBreath/Section0003.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/ShapeOfSuffering/Contents.html
https://www.dhammatalks.org/books/OnThePath/Section0000.html

[Anonymous No.23509025]

>>23508978
The vajra is a phallic symbol

[Anonymous No.23509732]

>>23508927
Fair. I was going off of the assumption that the reader is already familiar with Mahayana. I sometimes attend the Seattle temple. Also, if you don't mind, what's your experience with practicing Shingon and acquiring empowerments in Sakya?

[Anonymous No.23509889]

>>23508927
>Tendai incorporates mikkyō but that lineage comes from Kobō Daishi and what Ennin transmitted. Not present in Chinese tiantai.
I see, this sounds interesting, I thought tiantai and tendai were basically the same. I'm gonna look more into that.

>We have a basic identity with Mahāvairocana.
>>23501860
>The Adibuddha is just your own mindstream.
I'm gonna read the material you guys are recommending, but I still think the website is pretty clear here:
>>23501606
Plus the SEP article:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/kukai/#EsoVieBudFouEmbTruDha
The way Dainichi is described there is very similar to what some western theists describe their God, even if not identical.

[Anonymous No.23511148]

>>23507875
>3) Where the Pāli Canon can be compared with fragments of other early canons, we find that many elements included in those other canons were often kept out of the Pāli Canon and placed instead in the commentaries that grew up around it. This suggests that the people who maintained the Pāli Canon, beginning at least at some point in time, tried to be scrupulous in drawing a clear line between what they had received from tradition and what was novel in their day and age.
Or it suggests that the people maintaining the Pali canon removed things they either didn't understand or didn't agree with?

[Anonymous No.23511651]

>>23508927
> We have a basic identity with Mahāvairocana.
Can you expand on what exactly this identity entails? And is Mahavairocana just a metaphor for everything being empty of self-nature or is it something beyond that?

[Anonymous No.23512028]

>>23508993
>>23508999
Based Thanissaro enjoyer

[Anonymous No.23512118]

I don’t have any problem with vajrayana buddhism but it’s hard to imagine a more foreign and ‘exotic’ religious system. Vajrayanist amerigroids are in a similar state to romans who turned to christianity or other eastern cults.

[Anonymous No.23512121]

>>23508583
>propitiate the guru by gifts
fuck it's over for poorfags

[Anonymous No.23512154]

>>23512118
This is true of any overly-sectarian practice. The guy going on about Shingon for instance, is he merely knowledgeable on the subject or does he actually participitate in the religion in person? And if he does, is everything in Japanese or has it been adapted to Western culture? Shingon is itself just Indian esoteric Buddhism routed through China to Japan. It would be the same with the different branches of Zen, or of Tibetan Buddhism, the Theravadin nationalities, etc. The Romans had a framework for adopting gods and incorporating them but for many Westerners today they think in terms of Christianity, of total conversion and the exclusion of all other possibilities. But Buddhism especially does not work like this, which is why it is so different between AND within historically Buddhist countries.

[Anonymous No.23512166]

>>23512154
>But Buddhism especially does not work like this, which is why it is so different between AND within historically Buddhist countries.
that's buddhism outside the sangha, whatever that is. the sangha is not supposed to incur a schism to begin with, turns out it did, and the buddha never said it's okay to introduce other doctrines into his teaching, or learn some other teachings as a prerequisite to his, and his teaching doesn't need any additives anyway.

[Anonymous No.23512215]

>>23512166
>the buddha didn't teach x
already addressed >>23508165, tl;dr your appeal to authority is useless unless we are making some sort of museological inquiry into Buddhism, but I'm not even if you are

[Anonymous No.23512258]

>>23512118
It's really not when you actually study it. It's very technical and practical in a way that can appeal to westerners if they can get past the external aesthetics.

[Anonymous No.23512355]

>>23512118
No different from the Chinese and Tibetans accepting Buddhism from the Indians, and the Japanese taking Buddhism from the Chinese

[Anonymous No.23512515]

>>23512154
>Shingon is itself just Indian esoteric Buddhism routed through China to Japan. It would be the same with the different branches of Zen, or of Tibetan Buddhism, the Theravadin nationalities, etc.
What's your point? What do you think buddhism adapted to western culture would look like? How do you think you decide what is actually Dharma and what is cultural?

[Anonymous No.23512641]

>>23512118
If you have a limited understanding of Buddhism, you'd say that. Vajrayana is pretty much a direct sequential evolution of the original Buddhism. It was transplanted directly from Indian monastic order directly by various Indian Buddhist Abbots.

[Anonymous No.23512674]

>>23512515
>What's your point? What do you think buddhism adapted to western culture would look like?
Kūkai adapted. So in merely copying him, as a non-Japanese, it doesn't demonstrate to non-Japanese that you have an understanding of the material. One of the issues he had with the Japanese Buddhism of his day was that the ritual incantations had been transliterated/translated oddly into Chinese from Sanskrit. Japanese Buddhism was highly dependent on Chinese borrowings. Spells are supposed to be said correctly no matter which culture we are dealing with. But if these were transliterated to preserve sound, the meaning is lost, and if the meaning were preserved in translation then the sound is lost. And this applies broadly to anything being imported and modified. So merely copying is apeish and demonstrates little depth, and he thus went to the source for clarification and then made it accessible to Japanese Buddhists. He did not produce a wholesale copy of what was taught to him but accomodated it to the Japanese. So Westerners who declare themselves Gelugpas or Shingonese or whatever, learned as they may or may not be, if they cannot make it native are just following some explicitly exotic system.

[Anonymous No.23512952]

>>23507735
Recognized

[Anonymous No.23513034]

Whether or not you dislike Vajrayana is a question of whether or not you'd care if you saw how horribly disgusted Siddhartha Gautama would be if he saw what was being done in his name. In my mind the Buddha was just a man, a great man but a man nonetheless. I don't believe in supernatural views like those concerned with rebirth and the existence of deity or deity-like beings (i.e. Chenrezig, Tara, etc.). For me what I find useful are the Buddha's teachings for this life practice in the Pali suttas. Instructions on meditation, no self, and the workings of the mind. Since I'm essentially agnostic on issues of Buddhist cosmology which are fundamental to the aim of the path (which is to escape samsara), I can't call myself a Buddhist. I just like Buddhism. This means I am also not attached to early Buddhism and the orthodoxy of the EBTs. Even if I find them more useful or compelling for this life practice. So I am interested in Vajrayana because it has cool aesthetics, and cool ideas. But I would never go as far as to fool myself into thinking that Vajrayana is not a meaningfully significant departure from the teachings of the Buddha. And this is to an extent delegitimizing in my mind, even if I am not entirely attached to early Buddhism.

[Anonymous No.23513044]

>>23513034
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an04/an04.036.than.html
>"No, brahman, I am not a human being."

[Anonymous No.23513062]

>>23513044
That presupposes Buddhism, and anon said he is not a Buddhist, just someone who finds some Buddhist ideas good. I wish more "secular Buddhists" would outright state they're not Buddhists and just like some of the ideas.

[Anonymous No.23513071]

>>23513044
I understand but frankly he's being pedantic here. He is claiming he is not a human being on the basis of having destroyed the fetters which will allow him to escape rebirth. Okay, so he has become enlightened and now he is something else entirely? Whatever, he is still a biological human. I don't entertain supernatural claims, even if they supposedly come from the man's own mouth. Whether or not every sutta is an authentic reproduction of the exact words he spoke is impossible to establish anyways. But I'm not suggesting that he didn't believe this, or that he didn't believe and preach supernatural things like rebirth, the existence of devas, etc. I'm simply saying that I don't have any reason to believe these things myself.

[Anonymous No.23513080]

>>23513062
Agreed. I am not a Buddhist and secular Buddhism is not Buddhism. There is no Buddhism without rebirth. The logical conclusion of the four noble truths absent rebirth would be to put a bullet through your skull. I find many things about Buddhism attractive, but I can't fully buy into it. I wouldn't try to change it for my own sake. I just dabble with what I find interesting and enjoy.

[Anonymous No.23513092]

>>23487659
I don't really have any, let them believe what they wish. However, I do think that it pollutes what is at its barest a sensible lifestyle teaching with a lot unverifiable nonsense. But even if it wasn't, I am not attracted to that lifestyle teaching anyway.

[Anonymous No.23513095]

>>23513071
>Whatever, he is still a biological human.
We nowadays understand species usually as
>members of a species can breed with other members of the same species
or something like that. Buddha had a human mother, he had kids with his human wife, and he probably had human DNA, therefore he was human, right? That is not how the ancients saw it. They lived in a world where gods and fantastical beings could interbreed with humans and generate offspring. In that sense, Buddha and others saying he is not human, they actually mean it. He is indeed something else entirely, and a lot of myths developed based on that like the hilarious 32 signs:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_characteristics_of_the_Buddha#The_32_Signs_of_a_Great_Man
He apparently had webbed feet, a sheathed dick, golden skin and more. Now again, if you aren't a Buddhist, this means nothing. Even Buddhists don't all agree on all aspects of this. But for most Buddhists, Buddha was indeed not a human.

[Anonymous No.23513121]

>>23513095
The need to deify the great teachers in our history is a frustrating obstacle to simply basking in their profundity and wisdom. I understand perfectly why these strange traditions developed as they did, I just have no use for them myself. In the same vein, I enjoy the gospels and the sermon on the mount but I don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. I don't find that things lose their meaning when they aren't divinely ordained. I find great meaning in the wisdom of many world historical traditions without having to actually "believe" in any of them. But I do find myself grasping for that belief sometimes, it would be nice. A comfort. But I could never trick myself into it. I'm sure many people here feel the same way. I did a minor in religious studies in university. I've always had a fascination with religious traditions. I just never had true faith in anything. Especially not the tradition I was born into... Judaism :( (Apologies in advance for the blogpost)

[Anonymous No.23513226]

>>23513071
>he is still a biological human.
>I don't entertain supernatural claims
The buddha also said he never taught a single word of dharma. You need to think more closely about the sense in which these things were said. Just as there are no truly independent, self-existent gods, ghosts, demons, etc., so too are there no men.

[Anonymous No.23513265]

>>23513226
Whether 'men' or anything exists on a fundamental level or whether everything is emptiness is another issue entirely. I'm open to that view. But on the of conventional reality there clearly are men. It is not clear to me that there are gods, ghosts, or demons. Nor is it clear to me that anything is 'reborn' in the absence of some eternal self or soul to transmigrate. The idea that the five aggregates simply find another physical body because they are still clinging to reality is unconvincing. If there is no-self, then there is no meaningful continuity between lives. Yet somehow karma is attached to the 'same' midstream of aggregates despite the fact that they are totally impermanent and always changing.

[Anonymous No.23513283]

>>23513265
>If there is no-self, then there is no meaningful continuity between lives.
Does no-self negate continuity within one life?

[Anonymous No.23513366]

>>23513283
I don't believe in continuity in one life. "I" am clearly not the same self I was 5 or 10 years ago. I am not even the same self as I was yesterday. But I don't see how that realization connects to or suggests anything about the existence of past or future lives.

[Anonymous No.23513422]

>>23513265
If a dog shits and no one cleans it up, it attracts flies. That's how it works. The flies slurp up the shit and then lay eggs. There didn't have to be an eternal dog for its actions to have consequences, or for life in general to continue despite the expiration of individuated lives.

[Anonymous No.23513451]

>>23513422
This doesn't explain the continuity of aggregates between lives such that an "individual" can escape samsara. There is no way to explain it.

[Anonymous No.23513504]

>>23513451
There's no such individual among the aggregates or outside of them.

[Anonymous No.23513557]

>>23513366
A continuity isn't the same as a persistent substance. There is no substantial self but there is a continuity, otherwise your past actions would not affect your present and future condition.

[Anonymous No.23513616]

>>23513557
>>23513504
My difficulty is how there can be continuity between lives. This simply can't be explained, not even the Buddha or the most learned Theravadins will suggest to you that they can 'prove' how this works. Dependent origination doesn't prove rebirth. It has to be taken on faith, or experiential blah blah you get it im sure.

[Anonymous No.23513637]

>>23513616
>how there can be continuity between lives
as i said there's life in general—and this is evidently cyclical—and then there's individuated life, which is not lasting
buddhism is not trying to provide a scientific account of our experiences; the closest modern ideas might be the law of conservation of matter, or relativity, that there's nothing independently or spontaneously arisen ex nihilo and nothing static either only aasumptions about where it probably appears

[Anonymous No.23513644]

>>23513616
Cause and effect are homogeneous. Mind and matter are heterogeneous. Every moment of mind must be preceded by another moment of mind.

[Anonymous No.23513650]

>>23513637
None of that suggests there is any reason to believe that whatever animates this consciousness I currently experience won't cease to exist when this body dies but will rather somehow seek out a new body. And if I am expected to believe that this new body can be an ant, or a god, or an alien in another world system...

[Anonymous No.23513656]

>>23513644
mind is an emergent property that we don't fully understand. Our lack of understanding is not a reason to adopt an unsubstantiated framework. There was no mind on this planet 5 billion years ago. Where did it come from in the first place if it must always be preceded by itself?

[Anonymous No.23513691]

>>23513650
>whatever animates this consciousness I currently experience won't cease to exist when this body dies but will rather somehow seek out a new body
What is this animating agent that empowers consciousness to seek bodies? The Indians already believed in reincarnation and things of that sort, as did many others. What Buddhists have argued is that this wouldn't even be possible with a permanent ego-substance, because it wouldn't be able to experience changes or be acted upon in the first place. So there is no problem in new births occuring without this somehow eternal and migratory entity possessing other entities. But we could just as well say the other entities have no such eternity themselves. So you don't literally become an ant anyway.
The Greek neoplatonists, who were contemporaries of the Buddhists, but on the other side of the world, had no problem with adopting popular religious customs and beliefs as metaphors to express philosophy, and Buddhists clearly did the same, or the religion could not have spread from Afghanistan to Japan. (And in the West, Christianity absorbed neoplatonism and swapped the Greek myths for Christian ones, as these had become popular). In Japan the Buddhists argued the gods the Japanese already believed in were manifestations of the Buddha or of Buddhist saints/bodhisattvas, but the philosophical core was unaffected. Jesuit missionaries to Japan initially tried to argue that the Christian God was the real Dainichi, the supreme Buddha. Eventually they figured out Buddhism was incompatible and switched to calling the Japanese gods and Buddhas demons, and the Japanese expelled the Christian missionaries and mass-executed converts. Christianity and other systems like it are less flexible and require you to uphold more doctrines as literal while for Buddhism expediency is prioritized. So it becomes easier to spread but harder to explain, because it values contradictions as a way of refuting conceptualizing in general. Christianity can be explained very easily but the conceptions themselves are completely faith based. All of it is true or none of it, whereas with Buddhism there is a more progressive sense of stages of getting until you un-get.

[Anonymous No.23513708]

>>23513691
I am perfectly happy to say that I don't know what the animating agent is. I don't understand how consciousness emerges. Not to mention that 'intelligence' or some level of consciosness seems to exist at different levels in different beings, in organs, tissue, even single cells. There is more going on here than I can grasp. I don't know if those answers will ever be accessible. But it doesn't suit me to try to grasp on to one or another view, without substantial justification for that view. As you said, the Buddha was born, raised, and taught in a cultural/philosophical environment that accepted some sort of reincarnation cycle as a given fact of existence. That doesn't mean that it is a given fact.

[Anonymous No.23513756]

>>23513708
>That doesn't mean that it is a given fact.
The principle that cause and effect operates based on our actions, and these actions can either increase or decrease our delusions, attachments, hatreds, jealousies, ignorances, cravings, etc. Some rebirths are essentially presented as tropes—do this and you get that. In the literature there is a class of beings called preta, "hungry ghosts." It's almost obvious what the message is, if you are too greedy you cannot be satisfied, that will be your destination, and when you get there, stuck as someone who is starving but can't eat, it will be harder to turn back than it is now, all you will know is pain and anxiety, never a moment of quiet unless you bump into a monk. The ghosts don't have to be real—they are to most traditional people all over the world buddhist or not, they believe in these kinds of supernatural beings. But if that's not part of your umwelt then so what? You don't need to learn not to believe in something you don't believe in. Different prescription needed. I think the Buddha would have a very hard time if he were alive today preaching in Seattle or Brooklyn, and would find all the corporate hipster mindfulness people vain and obnoxious, and try to humble them like the brahmins in the sutta pitaka. But there have never been more conceited people than the modern secular ones, who scoff at religion as a stupid poor people cope and then spend all their money on drugs and therapists and companion animals.

[Anonymous No.23513775]

>>23513756
I don't disagree with you or the gist of your message. I don't feel i need to believe in anything, or be attatched to any views. It is the case that the existence of rebirth is fundamental to the path. If life is suffering which we are meant to esacpe, but there is no rebirth, then suicide is the rational choice. Despite the fact that I feel that life and clinging to impermanence is suffering I still don't want to kill myself. So I focus on 'this life' practice. I focus on reducing suffering in this life, agnostic as to whether there is or isn't a future one. That is really all I can say for myself. I'm not being judgmental about other's views and beliefs.

[Anonymous No.23513817]

>>23513775
I don't agree with the suicide angle. For that to make sense you'd need to view life as some kind of consumer good that you dispose of if it gets dirty, and everyone has different tolerances of this, from Palestinians having babies during rocket fire blowing up their tents to opioid addicts in Cleveland dying in their cars surrounded by endless food. I don't think it's a general principle that nihilism is the answer to not having a rationalized explanation for everything, and moreoever that's hardly the reason people are willing to die, because they couldn't some some scholastic philosophical quandry.

[Anonymous No.23513826]

>>23513817
If nirvana is the cessation of suffering, and the cessation of all existence, experience, etc. Then how is it any different from a standard materialist secular view of death/suicide? I think you have a point obviously, as indicated by my suggesting that despite my own suffering and identification with suffering I don't crave death or seek to kill myself.

[Anonymous No.23513866]

>>23513826
>If nirvana is the cessation of suffering, and the cessation of all existence, experience, etc.
I am partial to the general Mahayana view that samsara is nirvana viewed by poor eyesight so again I don't see suicide as a logical necessity here

[Anonymous No.23513903]

>>23513866
>Mahayana view that samsara is nirvana viewed by poor eyesight
Interesting. If you could point me toward some resources and/or texts that expand upon this I would be interested. I've encountered the idea before in my studies of Mahayana and Tibetan Buddhism years ago at university but have since forgotten much of that. I was always partial to the pali canon and an originalist conception of 'early Buddhism' because of my own intellectual tendencies I guess. But I am maximally open minded at the moment about everything.

You say that you don't see suicide as a logical necessity. I agree. But I wasn't really suggesting it was necessary. Simply that in accordance with a materialist understanding of death and a Buddhist outlook on life as impermanent and consisting wholly of suffering it would be a rational option.

[Anonymous No.23514027]

>>23513903
>accordance with a materialist understanding of death and a Buddhist outlook
yeah but there's no accord to begin with...
There's no materialist buddhist because buddhism is the opposite of materialism.

[Anonymous No.23514055]

>>23514027
Maybe I was being unclear. I'm not suggesting that there is a materialist buddhist outlook. I'm suggesting that a hypothetical materialist person who also happened to accept the Buddhist outlook on life and suffering might consider suicide rational.

[Anonymous No.23514086]

>>23513691
>What is this animating agent that empowers consciousness to seek bodies?
the dependent origination says

"Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers).

==

16. "Now these four kinds of clinging have what as their source, what as their origin, from what are they born and produced? These four kinds of clinging have craving as their source, craving as their origin, they are born and produced from craving.[10] Craving has what as its source...? Craving has feeling as its source... Feeling has what as its source...? Feeling has contact as its source... Contact has what as its source...? Contact has the sixfold base as its source... The sixfold base has what as its source...? The sixfold base has mentality-materiality as its source... Mentality-materiality has what as its source...? Mentality-materiality has consciousness as its source... Consciousness has what as its source...? Consciousness has formations as its source... Formations have what as their source...? Formations have ignorance as their source, ignorance as their origin; they are born and produced from ignorance.

17. "Bhikkhus, when ignorance is abandoned and true knowledge has arisen in a bhikkhu, then with the fading away of ignorance and the arising of true knowledge he no longer clings to sensual pleasures, no longer clings to views, no longer clings to rules and observances, no longer clings to a doctrine of self.[11] When he does not cling, he is not agitated. When he is not agitated, he personally attains Nibbana. He understands: 'Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.'"[12] [68]

[Anonymous No.23514282]

BUBS Retreat - Session 5 - Buddhanusati
https://youtu.be/JawihqNNKZg