Evola Vs. Guenon Thread continuation With reply to Dago

[Anonymous No.23445087]

>>23435096
>Evola's critique is that Guenon elevates Contemplation above Action (which Guenon does state in his books), and this is due to Guenon's personal bias
Evola shows that the Gita not only offers different paths, but even points to passages in it that show Krishna's preference for Karma Yoga over Bhakti/Jnana
IIRC Evola had a differing opinion on the priest caste, he termed it lunar and matriarchal. Evola technically admits the supremacy of "Non-discursive" Knowledge and pure intellectuality even if they differed on the exterior implementations. For a guy who apparently didn't like the whole bookish approach, you know the often quoted (by people with questionable motives) "the blood of heroes is closer to God than the ink of scholars and prayers of the pious," it is ironic considering Evola produced one of the most autistic, rigorous and lengthy books on phenomenology and magical idealism. In truth Evola imo was definitely Brahmin caliber, his writing style was and the sheer volume of reading and scholarship evident is definitely up there!
He also had critiqued monasticism, in that case the differences between them where on the exterior plane.
>Granted, Contemplation vs Action isn't quite the same as Karma vs Bhakti vs Jnana, but still a decent point by Evola.
The three Karma Bhakti Jnana all have "Highest aspects," however it differs is in the inferior levels, whether it is done with or without an object. Ultimately in the actual sense where Metaphysical Realization is concerned they are all inseparable in the sense of all united by the Knowledge/Intelligence/Nondual principle (without an Object). I recommend Sadhu Om (Path of Sri Ramana) for writings on the Bhakti approach and about how its reconcilable with the Jnana approach. Also the sort of Karma Yoga Krishna talks about is definitely the higher aspect (without an object). Desireless Action is actually just Contemplation reworded, so it's just a terminological dispute not really anything else. However there is Dualistic Bhakti/Karma.

By the way Dago I was rereading a bit of Guenon and I remember you talking about Height being "elite," but actually apparently the "true elite," according to Guenon take on the most average bodies, so like a 5"10' average in all respects, in otherwords those people who can just walk in a crowd unnoticed, these people are actually the "superior" amongst us.

Tending towards the extremes actually indicates a disequilibrium and inner insuffiency according to G. Just some food for thought, the Romanian guy was like 6'6" and ended up rejecting G on a psychological basis.

All that autism we had here about attacking G's character, and finding out such details by scouring his letters to find some sort of info to serve as a psychological stimulus reminds me of this situation here. (The link below) Also God rest Cologero it's been over a year since his passing his blog has been so helpful.
https://www.erwinhessle.com/blog/?p=508#more-508

[Anonymous No.23445095]

>>23445087
Here's the quote about the embodiment of the actual elite according to G. It is in the chapter on the Popular Mask many other interesting points are addressed

heres the quote:
>The apparent identification of the elite with the multitude properly corresponds to what in Islamic esoterism is the principle of the Malāmatiyah [the Perfect Ones], who as a rule adopt an outward appearance that is all the more ordinary and common—and indeed even coarse—as their interior state is more perfect and their spiritually more elevated, and who, in their relations with other men, never allow anything of their spirituality to appear. We can say that through this extreme contrast between the interior and the exterior they put the maximum ‘interval’ so to speak between these two aspects of their being, which allows them to comprehend within themselves the greatest number of possibilities of every order, which, at the terminus of their realization, logically results in the veritable ‘totalization’ of the being.3 It must be understood that this contrast relates only to the world of appearances, for in absolute reality, and consequently also at the just mentioned terminus of realization, there is no longer any interior and exterior, for there too the extremes are finally rejoined in the Principle.

[Anonymous No.23445132]

>>23445087
>By the way Dago I was rereading a bit of Guenon and I remember you talking about Height being "elite," but actually apparently the "true elite," according to Guenon take on the most average bodies, so like a 5"10' average in all respects, in otherwords those people who can just walk in a crowd unnoticed, these people are actually the "superior" amongst us.
On this point it should be pretty obvious. consider the instability of our times and then the mass fetishization of extreme proportions, tall freaks, literal samsons and all that. The titanic tendencies of our age are very clear.

In other words it just so happens that according to metaphysical insight and tradition, the perfectly average "CIS white male," is actually the Elite of this time in the West. From an initiatic point of view, of course this is only a general rule.

[Anonymous No.23445201]

>>23445087
Krishna's Karma Yoga is definitely a Nondual Karma Yoga, he doesn't advise you to do any specific ritualistic action, only to act without desire, without attatchment, detachment or indifference to anything you do, that's Karma Yoga.

That there is a later dualistic Karma/Bhakti Yoga centred around Krishna, and before it, is definitely not a grounds to infer that Krishna Elevates Karma over Jnana, no he merely elevates the Nondual Principle except shows an example of how it is applied in Karma. In other words Krishnas Karma (action) Yoga is actually just Jnana, it's the nondoing doing (inaction) of the Jnani. There is actual opposition though between Jnana and Dualistic Karma/Bhakti, however they could be viewed as gradual steps we could climb over lifetimes to finally get to Jnana/Nondualistic Karma/Bhakti. Anyhow Initiation concerns Nondualism primarily, it doesn't contradict exoterism, but certainly Dualistic Action/Bhakti taken as a goal in itself would in guenons terms be confusing the Spiritual for the Psychic, or just the perpetuation of Samsara. However taken as preliminary steps, which if you had sufficient qualification would climb over very fast to enter in the Jnana nondualistic objectless Karma/Bhakti, then these dualistic schools are fine.

Guenon is absolutely correct to admonish dualism taken as an end in itself. And in terms of actual traditional understanding, it's a pitfall, don't get lost in dualistic Karma/Bhakti thinking it's spiritual it would serve no purpose towards initiatic realization and would would not lead one beyond birth and death.

[Anonymous No.23445223]

>>23445201
>dont get lost in dualistic Karma/Bhakti thinking it's spiritual it would serve no purpose
To just hammer the point again, to perform Karma/Bhakti the way Krishna says would actually require the dawning of the fire of Jnana, Vairagya and all the rest. In other words it is not a specific Sadhana meant to obtain any Object, therefore it is in total conformity in its essence with the Advaitic contemplation, it is "contemplation in action"

[Anonymous No.23445230]

>>23445087
Go be a Muslim vs the house cat ate my homework. I am waiting with baited breath.

[Anonymous No.23445284]

>>23445230
I have no anxiety or anguish to resolve, because I do not rest content to replace one contingency (stress about handing in homework) with another contingency (becoming muslim).

The sad thing is though, that if your attatchment "baited breath," becomes permanent for you, you will be shutting out all transcendence. Fused with baited breath which you mistook for enjoyment, you are damned to chaos, swallowed up whole by the ocean.
You've mistaken a mere assemblage of psychic influences, contingencies about becoming and expectations about homework for a goal.

"Waiting with baited breath," is truly just waiting for death. Good luck with that.

[Anonymous No.23445310]

>>23445230
Get rid of all remedies from below, if you dare. "Becoming muslim," and all the rest is a remedy from below. At the outset one must relinquish contingency and opposition and the remedy from above will restore you to health.

The difference between a psychic influence is that it comes from below, a spiritual influence comes from above, however certain psychic influences are definitely useful as defensive measures at an individual level. In that sense one can become a muslim without becoming a muslim. However if he becomes a muslim to oppose not being a muslim, then he will surely not come into the possesion of the remedy from above.

[Anonymous No.23445686]

>>23445087
Contemplation is not opposed to action. Only latter, feminized, low T degenerate priestly types think so, like Guenon that thinks that the spiritual epitome is to be a low T hermit cuck and that real men should bow down to pedophile eunuchs (cuckthlic "priests"). On the contrary, the traditional ideal is that of the spiritual warrior, both actor and contemplator.

[Anonymous No.23447316]

>>23445686
Guenon never proposed any of this shit like, nor did evola on the way you have described this is a clear case of someone getting carried away by the modern mentality on masculinity, etc. And if I'm being completely honest, your picture of masculinity is actually from the POV of the "feminised" I really doubt your heterosexuality. If it's not the case that you're typing all this nonsense to justify your sexual preferences, then it's probably a case of Oedipus where you've never been able to get over the hate your have over your dad and his relationship with your mother.

From the outset masculinity doesnt idealise nor does it chase ideals in the form of frenetic activity you're imagining (ie. All the shirts glorified toda, bodybuilding, extreme proportions, etc. Etc) I don't think your assumptions will ever be corrected. To put it simply

You are a bodymind and there are body minds above you, and below you, so long as you have such animosity to those below you, and contentment and possessiveness of yourself, (the way you treat and think about women will be the best test of you character in this respect) you have envy and even lust for those above you, and in your world view of Alpha vs. Beta, Weak vs. Strong unless you are one of these "alphas" you are seriously just admitting here your preference for BBC, and that you get off watching cuckold porn. Otherwise you're merely degrading yourself according to merely infantile standards. Every body and being is infact unique, and not one is superior or inferior, nor is it something natural to have bodies (because of mere appearance) rule over some or be ruled by others.

The extroversion towards appearances is absolutely a feminine thing, afterall did you miss the part about centripetal (tending towards center) and centrifugal (tending towards periphery) to correspond to what Evola said what metaphysically correspondent to Masculine and Feminine nature?

[Anonymous No.23447328]

>>23445686
This is literally a little boy getting carried away with what a woman told him about manhood (is there anything more lunar or matriarchal?) You're an absolute retard, and your expectation and gross misunderstandings of such things is evidence enough that you would not actually conform to the "spiritual warrior," who in all mis-representions should be some dumb brute (I'm sure you'd mistake it for some sort laconic spiritual quality).

You probably think, fighting trannies on 4chan or posting about your version of national exceptionalism is the activity of a spiritual warrior, nothing could be more further from reality.

You definitely fo not even have the mental capacity to read evolas writings on phenomenology, and his later admission of advaita (via guenon) being actually truth which he overlooked and even was mistaken about in some of his books on tantra.

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23447417]

>>23445087
>IIRC Evola had a differing opinion on the priest caste
>the blood of heroes is closer to God than the ink of scholars and prayers of the pious
IMO the best explanation for Evola's differing opinion is in the introduction by H.T. Hansen in The Hermetic Tradition. My understanding is that the "Ghibelline" tradition, which he always harps on about in various books, is superior to the Catholic priestly "Guelph" tradition because it goes one step beyond mere self-realization. While the traditional priestly caste offers is a path to the second step in Alchemy, those who achieve the final step of the Red Work in Alchemy, the return to Earth, are the true rightful rulers of a civilization, and this is what the best aspects of the Holy Roman Empire represented.
>Action is actually just Contemplation reworded, so it's just a terminological dispute
>finding out such details by scouring his letters to find some sort of info to serve as a psychological stimulus
very true, this is definitely in the territory of "excessive nitpicking", and I have likely overblown something minor that was merely a passing comment for the sake of fostering discussion.


>Sadhu Om
>erwinhessle
alright ill check it out m8

>I remember you talking about Height being "elite,"
likely was just bantzing desu kek
what really matters is not one's height but one's 1 rep max on the benchpress

>in otherwords those people who can just walk in a crowd unnoticed
oy vey

>>23445201
>definitely not a grounds to infer that Krishna Elevates Karma over Jnana
to throw another wrench in this debate, i'm pretty sure there is a passage where Krishna says that he prefers the Jnana sage above all else.
>>23445087
which comes back to your point that there can be contradictions at the inferior level, but uity at the higher level

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23447430]

>>23445087
>Cologero
F

it just so happens that I just read one of his book review blogs yesterday

https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=11192

the first book he reviews,
>Seven Archangels: Rhythms of Inspiration in the History of Culture and Nature
is pure kino
if you like Guenonian yuga cycles talk then this is amazing

[Anonymous No.23448072]

>>23447417
>but one's 1 rep max on the benchpress
very true. im sure with internal martial arts training initiates would break even the world record
>contradictions at the inferior level, but uity at the higher level
very true...
>The deeper one sinks into matter, the more the elements of division and opposition gain force and scope; and, contrariwise, the more one rises toward pure spirituality, the nearer one approaches that unity which can only be fully realized by consciousness of universal principles.
-G. (pbuh)

>alright ill check it out m8
Im not trying to force you or anything... Really Im just projecting my recent investigation into Ramana Maharshi without all the extraneous new-age NeoVedanta grift, imo the practices and so on of Ramana were actually extremely subtle and simple and compatible with traditional advaita but the actual prerequisites and qualifications requires are high, though unlike the neovedanta grift Ramana actually stressed the idea of "citta suddhi" purification of the will/mind, which is very straightforward and definitely /trad/

>>23447430
angel literature is very advanced and kino stuff bro, especially when its understood that the angels correspond to intelligences in seed form on the level of the causal plane, in tantra aswell the use of mantra as in "seed mantra" of a certain "devata" (angel) seems to correspond to such a notion. both the subtle (psychic) dream and gross waking state emerge from the latent seed of the causal, so it follows that the theory is the yogis can technically manipulate the subtle/gross by activation of the causal/bijas which is the power inherent in mantra. though Ive read enough about it to recognize that further mental speculation upon the matter will be fruitless, and it is probably unwise to try mess with esoteric practices without guidance, also its absolutely necessary to watch out for the mind getting carried away by all manner of expectations.

>to throw another wrench in this debate, i'm pretty sure there is a passage where Krishna says that he prefers the Jnana sage above all else.
yeah, I would just advise caution on krishna stuff and best to look at it from the trad advaita and also yogic point of view, the later vaishnavites and the gurus today have really gotten carried away with interpretations of course if its hard to get carried away if you have a bit of common sense. too many dubious gurus and fraudsters in the buisness.

>allusions to hermetism
on hermetic lit I pretty much have dropped it after getting a bit too carried away with the internal alchemical experiments I thought I was doing, lets just say I was "humbled" very quickly which was probably necessary.

>>23447430
>Seven Archangels: Rhythms of Inspiration in the History of Culture and Nature
sounds interesting, I remember you bringing this one up in a thread ages ago.

>oy vey
Yeah...

[Anonymous No.23448095]

>>23447417
>very true, this is definitely in the territory of "excessive nitpicking",
But about Guenon getting attacked on the astral plane by a Bear conjured by Satanists.....!

https://www.gornahoor.net/?p=5593 Unfortuntely it seems to be a genuine morbid possibility, I also read daoist black magic which confirmed it all aswell, if you ever go to india treat carefully! check out a (((facebook))) post which will come up on google when you search Ramana Maharshi Black Magic for a corroborating story, cant post the link fdue to spam detection so thatll have to do

[Anonymous No.23449528]

sounds based

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23449604]

>>23448072
> Ramana Maharshi
hit me with some more Ramana Maharshi shit, he's on my summer reading list
>without all the extraneous new-age NeoVedanta grift
I just read some Vivekenanda's works a few weeks ago actually. Vivekananda has a whole kinda sucks because his works are aimed at the english speaking masses of the early 20th century, and there is too much "science-y" talk and he tries to appeal to christianity - very little deep insight.
the only other recent person that is on my radar is Aurobindo... any thoughts regarding him?

>the later vaishnavites and the gurus today have really gotten carried away
big time, that's how I felt about that Edwin Bryant guy who wrote some commentaries on Yoga Sutras and Bhagavata Purana (which were still good)
that being said, he wrote this Krishna sourcebook which serves as a QRD on Krishna in various traditional hindu texts - which was kinda nice.
>best to look at it from the trad advaita and also yogic point of view
my thoughts too
you got any good recs on the intersection of daoism and yoga?


>on hermetic lit I pretty much have dropped it after getting a bit too carried away with the internal alchemical experiments
like what?
what kinda hermetic /lit/ were you reading/following?

[Anonymous No.23450006]

>>23445087
>but actually apparently the "true elite," according to Guenon take on the most average bodies, so like a 5"10' average in all respects, in otherwords those people who can just walk in a crowd unnoticed, these people are actually the "superior" amongst us.
where does he talk about this?

[Anonymous No.23450615]

I ride the tiger so you don't have to!

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23451053]

I think about this quote every day
>By adopting the pseudonym "Sphinx" in his early writings, he knew that those who did not decipher his message would be swallowed up and reduced to obedience. Those who kick between screams of revolt do not allow themselves to be obeyed, begrudgingly or even unconsciously. Once deciphered, however, the Sphinx has no choice but to gently release the prey, which will emerge from its clutches not only free, but strengthened.

[Anonymous No.23451706]

>>23450006
It's in the quote I followed up with, it's in the chapter "the popular mask" in initiation and spiritual realization.
>>23449604
>/lit/ on Ramana
Pretty much everything by Sadhu Om, its a good introduction. Ramana actually took to writing, there is a blog run by a guy called Michael James, he's produced many translations elaborating on the original Tamil, he runs a blog called HappinessofBeing

Also https://www.advaita-vision.org/q-408-ramanas-who-am-i/
This site has alot of good stuff on advaita in general, the comment on that blog by Venkat gives a pretty good overview, and explains it further. Ramana outlined two paths what he called (atma-vichara) which is translated ambiguously today as (self-enquiry/investigation), it is actually quite a popular thing known under new age circles by "Self-Enquiry," "who am I," however they have it all quite confused. Though Michael James in his books and also the translations, provides all the primary sources on what Ramana actually taught, and what was meant by his atma-vichara.

>you got any good recs on the intersection of daoism and yoga?
In terms of metaphysics or the practical techniques? Of course both of them will agree on the metaphysics, G. Talked explicitly about how the yoga/samkhya purusha-prakriti is parraleled by yang-yin, so there's that, there's also even some commonality between the two traditions on a practical side.

https://formlessart.wordpress.com/tag/buddhist-vase-breathing/

This Chinese author has written heaps with translated techniques on it, https://ymaa.com/articles/muscle-tendon-changing-and-brain-marrow-washing-qigong
>Yoga Sutras
There is an apparent commentary on the yoga sutras by shankara which has been translated quite lengthy and you may find some useful info in it.

The techniques of yoga like the bandhas and mudras are all online. In the daoist writings I sent above it shows how both Buddhists and Daoists in some cases had different orientations, some daoist sects were literally mad for all the qigong and actually the refinement of an immortal body.

It seems all over the world, warrior cultures would cultivate a version of some sort of "internal martial arts," which wouldve been kept secret, Things like iron shirt qigong, which wouldve made them literally impervious to blades and so on, warfare wouldve had some crazy stuff going on. At least it is explicit in the Daoist neidan texts (which is like Chinese tantra)

Also, the daoists seemed to really ingest all those "elixirs" which you can find mentioned in the baopuzi by ge Hong, however they wouldve been looked at as a a support to neidan and it wouldve been done under controlled supervision.

There is also a book cologero recommended "opening the dragon gate," which apparently discloses the biography of sorts of a modern daoist initiate. However I read it and it seems almost made up it is very long, however there are definitely some details in there which seemed to he acceptable.

[Anonymous No.23451753]

>>23449604
You'll have to put the two together for example that yogi blogger I linked for example shows a parralel

In Ramana Lit all the forceful stuff like pranayama, etc. This is all "Raja Yoga," essentially its all for temporary dissolution of the mind (samadhi), there are many techniques to bring that about, in one of the padas of the yoga sutras, patanjali even mentions drugs, however the state that a yogi experiences in that samadhi, is essentially what we all experience in deep dreamless sleep, (sushupti), he also says that the raja yogi can withdraw the nadis to the brain, forcefully like through said methods, pranayama etc. (Also the yogic tradition suggests one should achieve the final goal of the raja-yoga by age 30, because of the weakness of the body)

however it is jnana alone which can give the final liberation, and all the stuff which the raja yoga engages with kundalini, pranayama, according to ramana it is all automatic.

>Hold for as long as you are comfortable then slowly exhale. Inhalation and exhalation are done through the nose.
In the Taoist traditions this is said to build chi and light the fire in your lower tan tien to initiate the gestation cycle of the immortal fetus (a type of inner spiritual alchemy that is said to eventually transform the practitioner into an immortal). In Yoga talk the practice is said to fuse prana and apana (downward and upward moving energy) in the navel chakra, which causes kundalini (a dormant spiritual force) to awaken and begin her ascent to the crown chakra where she blesses the yogi with self realisation and a host of siddhis (powers of the mind).

[Anonymous No.23451761]

>>23451053
Sounds like the Sphinx is following the O9A ethos of Pathei-mathos to be honest metaphorically of course.

[Anonymous No.23451790]

>>23450006
It is implied somewhat
>the multitude is for the elite a ‘support’ and a ‘base’, as is the body for the spirit in human individuality.

The body which is most like the multitude would be the best support or a fitting "popular mask" logically for an initiate
>>23445095

And:
>Moreover, it is particularly important to note that the ‘popular’ appearance adopted by initiates constitutes, at all degrees, a kind of image of ‘descending realization’; this is why the state of the Malāmatiyah is said to ‘resemble that of the Prophet, who was elevated to the highest degrees of the divine Proximity,’ but who, ‘when he returned to the people, spoke with them of external things only,’ so that, ‘from his intimate conversation with God

Also another interesting point of G.

>Each collectivity can thus be regarded as possessing a subtle force made up in a way of the contributions of all its members past and present, and which is consequently all the more considerable and able to produce greater effects

It follows from this that the oldest religions in the world with the most believers, and their representatives have the most psychically powerful people on earth though, (In this connection we will recall that the collective, in its psychic as well as its corporeal aspects, is nothing but a simple extension of the individual, and thus has absolutely nothing transcendent with respect to it, as opposed to spiritual influences, which are of a wholly different order.)

[Anonymous No.23452850]

>>23445087
they are both based

[Anonymous No.23453557]

>>23445230
>go be a muslim
I doubt you're going to read this reply, but just for posterity's sake and in hopes of a good faith discussion, Guenon did not ever advocate becoming a muslim. In fact, I can't recall if he said this himself or if his biographer who knew him personally stated this, but the sole reason he "converted" (read Initiation and Spiritual Realization to find that, from the point of view of a sufficiently spiritually developed individual who knows in the highest sense the unity behind all traditional forms, there can be no conversion) was due to purely individual circumstances that made an Islamic initiatic path the most viable. Further, he makes clear that the vast majority of Westerners would be unable to ever follow an Eastern tradition (even exoterically? possibly) due to their psychological constitution and fetishism for the exotic preventing a true understanding.

The closest he ever gets to explicit advice is noting some of the trademarks of counterinitiatic forces and to avoid at all costs associating with such groups or teachers, and that for any esoteric spiritual development to be fruitful, one must be affiliated and participate in an exoteric traditional form, the rites of which benefit even the most spiritually developed initiates. However, given the state of the world today, and even a short decade after his death, it's doubtful what one should actually do today given the state of degeneration in both exoteric and esoteric organizations.

[Anonymous No.23453646]

>>23445087
>Sunni 'shia' convert lol lmao

The source text(s) are entirely Eastern Non-Trinitarian liturgies bowdlerized for convenience "muhammed" = epithet of Jesus and do not stand hermeneutic scrutiny. Guenon's a mixed bag decidedly disfavored toward the dubious; his work on symbolism is particularly bad.

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23453692]

>>23451706
>Pretty much everything by Sadhu Om
>there is a blog run by a guy called Michael James, he runs a blog called HappinessofBeing
>https://www.advaita-vision.org/q-408-ramanas-who-am-i/
>cologero recommended "opening the dragon gate
very based, thanks
will deffo read

>G. Talked explicitly about how the yoga/samkhya purusha-prakriti is parraleled by yang-yin
oh shit, didn't know that. Will have to dig this up and look into it.
I've avoided Daoism for the longest time within the /Guenon/core and only recently began to take it seriously.

>Yoga Sutras
Something/someone that has piqued my interest is BKS Iyengar. Much of his teaching is a reaction against the modernist tendencies of American/Western yoga, and sought to re-infuse Patanjali back into the mix. So his approach was to take the 8 limbs and merge them into a single practice - I investigated this matter and it seems like there is a /trad/ basis for this and is thus legit. Furthermore, it is said that Iyengar's philosophy is rooted in Vishishtadvaita (haven't investigated this fully though).

>>23451753
dude yeah that's legit
im trying to /kukai/maxx so i'm more or less going down the following path:
yoga -> neidan -> zen -> shingon

I feel like i'm almost ready to graduate from the /hindu/core
I spent a lot of time in 2023 actually going to yoga studios and practicing asanas and over the past few months i've been trying to iron out various aspects of the hindu tradition.

you got any recs that are kinda similar to Tripura Rahasya? what I like most is that intersection of Advaita and Kshatriya shit desu
>>23451761
maybe Guenon initiated Anton Long kek


sup with you? what's the next 6-12 month /trad/ plan looking like beyond Maharshi?

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23453693]

>>23453557
>the sole reason he "converted" was due to purely individual circumstances
normies will never understand


>When Rene Guénon was a young man in France, one night he set out for a long walk through the woods. During this exercise in “peripatetic contemplation,” a practice to which he had accustomed himself, he accidentally fell into a ditch that was so deep it was impossible for him to find a way out on his own.
>Stranded in complete darkness in this pit in the middle of the woods, with no one within sight to be summoned for help, Guénon thought he had finally met his end. As he prepared himself for what seemed to be an inevitable death, a hand appeared from above, seemingly out of nowhere, and pulled him out of the ditch.
>No sooner, however, had he been rescued by this unknown figure, that he took off and disappeared into the woods, as swiftly and mysteriously as he had appeared. While Guénon’s attempts to catch up to him to offer his heartfelt gratitude were unsuccessful, he did manage to get a clear look at his face. Many years later, while in Cairo, Guénon attended a Sufi gathering involving a majlis of dhikr, only to find the man who had rescued him years before in France seating at the center of the gathering.
>As Guénon went into a shock, ecstatically pointing at the man who he recognized from years before, the mysterious figure who happened to be Shaikh Salāma Ḥasan al-Rāḍī, a Sufi master, stood up, smiled and embraced Guenon, acknowledging their previous encounter. The miraculous nature of the incident — well-known to the members of the shaikh’s order — lay in that Shaykh al-Rāḍī had never stepped foot in France in his life. The charismatic power of the shaykh was so strong that he was himself not the member of any ṭarīqa, having instead founded his own.

[Anonymous No.23453866]

>>23445095
>>23451790
why would you want to be as unremarkable as possible? whatever happened to as above, so below? is Traditionalism all about becoming as much of a turbo normie as possible (minus the excessive consumption)?

[Anonymous No.23453895]

>>23453692
>your earlier posts asking about hermetic lit
I also didn't answer your question OK for hermetic literature, my view was that essentially that in the hermetic lit, the four humours, the elements, alchemy, it is pretty much a sort of western form similar to types of "kundalini yoga" in the tantras, and the goal is likewise the dissolution of the mind, into a sort of undifferentiated aspect of life (I believe this is connected with, the hiranyagharbha Brahman, also consider, statements of gospel, which connect Life, Light and Heat) so this is on a subtle level

For example "black bile" is called as such because it represents metaphorically the eliminated "feces" of the body, it is said that this humour is associated with the earth element.

Now it just so happens that in the yoga/samkhya/tantra view, the subtle tanmatra earth is associated with the karmendriya for elimination, (see the parralel?), and also the sense of sense of smell.

The other humours all have similar correlates when you look into it

What I was studying? I was looking at the keys of Basil valentine and a couple others, many of these texts will actually have statements which serve as a support or instruction to concentrate on

>anything but Ramana
Like you some zen stuff

The progression I'm on is similar to yours except it is

Like yoga/neidan/vajrayana/shingon all these id put into the same category -> zen/advaita

[Anonymous No.23453914]

>>23453866
You have got the "above" and "below" totally confused, you see the "above," and "below" are merely part of the world as you perceive it by turning outwards, in other words, the "above" you are talking about is actually the "below," since the "below," is by nature what one turns outwards to, objects and phenomena, multiplicity on its own side, appearances

You may not realize it, but this "above" of yours which you seem to connect to the hermetic maxim (which speaks to a totally different level), is imagined and informed by your extroversion to objects, phenomena and appearances.

The whole extravagances, amplification of appearances, based on an individuals imagination (exercise of his internal organ), is literally just an ailment of the individualistic mentality which is so pervasive.

The whole idea of individual "exceptionalism" is nothing but egotism and delusion, the fact is you will only thirst more and more so long as the quenching of that thirst comes from Below (Outside, Appearance, Object, Phenomena)

The fact is the Spirit does not get involved with extravagant phenomenal manifestations exclusive to individuals, it is indifferent to any specific configuration of matter ultimately. However the spirit will always tend to the mean, in relation to the psyche it will be at a mean, therefore in the spirits relation to the psyche and body, it will take on the mean and average of the collective, the masses the species. That's its automatic relation to it, indifference and not extroversion towards fancies, likes, dislikes etc. The spirit has nothing to prove.
This is very difficult for women in particular because their imagination is so centred around beauty and appearances.

Let's just say becoming a "great individual," has nothing to do whatsoever with what G. Is talking about, no matter how Enlarged one appears its as null, and the drive outwards to that enlargement is merely some persons fantasy and imagination.

The fact that you envision some satisfaction to come from the side of appearances, shows that you're operating under the illusion of what is "Below."

Whatever you've understood of "Traditionalism," and things like "As Above" "So Below," is clearly just the projection of your own fancy.

What is Below is Appearances, Phenomena, the World, the Manifest, what is Above is the Spirit, the Unmanifest, when it's said "As above so below," what's pointed out is the nonduality of matter and spirit, form and formlessness. Not Cartesian dualism, by thinking Above means something "idealised," "fantasised," by an individual or even a whole collective, shows you're operating under a fundamental confusion.

[Anonymous No.23453925]

>>23453866
>Traditionalism all about becoming as much of a turbo normie
Traditionalism has nothing to do with becoming anything. The spirit is impassive it is not involved in phenomenal manifestations you may get involved in. By the way all the conditions and circumstances are a contingency, it is really just convenience that is being talked about, these things are all relative and only exist on the side of appearances. G. says so, but from the perspective of the masses, the spirit will not go towards extremes, it will be as if you are talking to yourself, now none of this means "individual extravagance" is actually incompatible with all those things like initiation, etc. But really it is completely unrelated, and if you go on cultivating yourself, or even supposing there is some connection between that extravagance and initiation, spirit etc. Then that is fundamentally mistaken.

The traditionalist isn't aiming at doing anything, but he is not limited in doing anything. It's just a different plane altogether.

[Anonymous No.23453930]

>>23453914
No, I meant that your spirit would be "above", and your physical appearance would be "below." I think you've missed that part.

[Anonymous No.23453933]

>>23453925
So what even is the point?

[Anonymous No.23453941]

>>23453866
By the way we are not talking about being anything, but only something to do with birth and the prenatal determination of a body. If you can't see how it is advantageous to just be another "face in the crowd," passing by unnoticed, and if you don't also see how this can also imply that homogeneity is ultimately going to mean a more spiritual society, then it follows that you are most likely connecting the Spirit with some sort of fantasised externalisation, ultimately it's not a matter of externalisation, but paradoxically, the mean shows that it is balanced and is then actually signifies a sort of conformity to the impassivity of the Spirit.

Guenon also compares Moses, and Muhummad, Muhammad is deemed superior to Moses in this way

>this is why the state of the Malāmatiyah is said to ‘resemble that of the Prophet, who was elevated to the highest degrees of the divine Proximity,’ but who, ‘when he returned to the people, spoke with them of external things only,’ so that, ‘from his intimate conversation with God, no trace appeared on his person.’ If it is added that ‘this state is superior to that of Moses, upon whose face no one could look after he had spoken with God,’ this again refers to the idea of totality as explained above; it is basically an application of the axiom that ‘the whole is more than any of its parts’,5 whatever the part may be, even if it be the most eminent of all.6 In the case of Moses the ‘redescent’ is not in fact completely effected, if one may so put it, and does not fully integrate all the inferior levels, but extends only to the level symbolized by the outward appearance of common men, so that these latter may participate in transcendent truth in the measure of their respective possibilities.

[Anonymous No.23453947]

>>23453941
>If you can't see how it is advantageous to just be another "face in the crowd," passing by unnoticed,
I mean, I see the advantages, but they're very mundane and worldly. I do not like to be bothered by other people. I'm not vain or attention-seeking. But while on one hand, I might be strong in the sense that I'm cultivating temperance, on the other hand, I'm sometimes concerned that I practice that kind of anonymity because I might not have the strength nor will to handle the kind of responsibility that comes with "sticking out."
>if you don't also see how this can also imply that homogeneity is ultimately going to mean a more spiritual society
This doesn't make sense. Globohomo literally means "global homogenization", and yet I can't think of a more anti-spiritual trend ever foisted upon the globe.

[Anonymous No.23453955]

>>23453925

>>23453930
>your spirit is above and your appearance is below
This is untrue, everything individual and manifest, including an apparent "your spirit" since you refer to it so, it implies that it is actually below together with the individual
The spirit is unfmanifest, even the greatest extreme the most praised individual who is part of the whole, is simply "below,"

Guenons point is that when you're in between both extremes as the average of the masses, you naturally are able to integrate more possibilities from either side, for a full totalization of the being on all its inferior levels.
Guenon also shows how low class people have a greater number of possibilities which can be developed, being at the minimum, they even will have latent abilities which have all but dissapeared from the other parts of society, and he says this is the reason why "low class" people can actually develop what seems like from the masses, rare traits which may even be exalted.

[Anonymous No.23453959]

>>23453947
>mundane and worldly
It's actually the opposite! You see the more noticed or the more extreme means "more worldly" because the world is paying more attention you therefore act like it in correspondence getting more entrenched in the world.
>This doesn't make sense. Globohomo literally means "global homogenization", and yet I can't think of a more anti-spiritual trend ever foisted upon the globe.
Well none of this is from a spiritual point of view, we are talking about psyche. The Homogeneous society will always be more psychically powerful, because there is a greater relationship with eachother, more connectedness means more "psychic" subtle force.

[Anonymous No.23453971]

>>23453947
> I might be strong in the sense that I'm cultivating temperance, on the other hand, I'm sometimes concerned that I practice that kind of anonymity because I might not have the strength nor will to handle the kind of responsibility that comes with "sticking out."
All these sentiments pretty much are pseudo-anonymity, the idea of having sort of responsibility, etc. Actually speaks to being more entrenched, whereas someone who is neither weak nor strong would have no such entrenchment.

It seems your anonymity and conformity to the impassivity of the spirit is nothing but farce. Because of your self-consciousness in relation to others you seem to be thinking you are more spiritual because in relation to the collective you are an extreme case. This is like Moses and shows of an incomplete redescent, whereas Muhummad was more complete.

[Anonymous No.23453979]

>>23453947
Being average makes the attitude of indifference flow most naturally, this is undoubtedly a positive characteristic in terms of spirituality, either extreme will have varying degrees of attatchment due to a perceived responsibility.

[Anonymous No.23453984]

>>23453959
Now let's apply this to Judaism
The Jews are a society which has been able to blend in, "they move in the crowd unnoticed," showing conformity to the impassivity of the Spirit. Then let's look at the laws of homogeneity, which they've maintained (this makes them psychically powerful)
We can see that Jews are superior as result in terms of spirituality and psychism. Also not just Jews let's extend this to Indians and Chinese, the same principle applies to an even greater extent in our modern day. The Jews of Israel especially the ultra orthodox would be in the same category except the Indian and Chinese clearly due to the population difference are of an even higher caliber, and it shows considering the eminence of their spirituality in relation to the world.

[Anonymous No.23453993]

>>23453984
When we look at the modern west all of a sudden we have reason to connect the diversity and lack of homogeneity to the mass psychic disturbances (mental health crises etc.) Who wouldve guessed, the collective subtle force of the west is not in a good place, and the spiritual culture of the west isn't either

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23453995]

>>23453895
>Basil valentine
funny you mention him... Less than 24 hours ago, I was going through the french Guenon archive website to see if he ever made any comments on this one early Christian Gnostic called Valentinus. However, Valentinus in french is 'Valentin', so when I searched 'Valentin', all these results for Basil Valentine came up.
Guenon mentioned Basil Valentine quite frequently, and that was a name I legit never heard of.

>Kundalini
im actually a big pseud in this domain - been deliberately holding off on it for a while until I shored up my yoga game. got any good /trad/ recs for it?

>Like yoga/neidan/vajrayana/shingon all these id put into the same category -> zen/advaita
based

[Anonymous No.23454027]

>>23453866
>The knights of infinite resignation are easily recognized, for their gait is dancing and bold. But they who possess the jewel of faith frequently deceive one because their bearing is curiously like that of a class of people heartily despised by infinite resignation as well as by faith – the philistines.

[Anonymous No.23454037]

>>23453557
>it's doubtful what one should actually do today
Practice Vajrayana Buddhism

[Anonymous No.23454040]

>>23453995
>im actually a big pseud in this domain - been deliberately holding off on it for a while until I shored up my yoga game. got any good /trad/ recs for it?
Thats probably a good thing considering the subject has become a mainstay of newage literature so confusion on the subject is easy
https://hareesh.org/blog/2022/1/31/the-real-story-on-kundalini
Guenon also wrote a chapter on it, essentially as I have come to understand it, also mind guenons warning about taking mentions of a "vital force" at face value when confronted by the confusion between the psychic and spiritual
the daoists refer to a similar process in qigong as the Microcosmic orbit and the greater/lesser heavenly circulation, it is also in vajrayana as tummo practice. Shingon will definitely have something more explicit and correlated, in zen they talk about the hara, again linking to what is known as vase breathing, cultivation of the dantien etc.
Whilst all this is maybe good as some sort of theoretical information, it cannot be useful in the long run, also it has been shown many times that specific cultivation of it via internal alchemy is not actually necessary for advancing the spiritual path, it can be automatic and not really a specific focus. However it gets to the point where an obstacle is hit and if it just happens to have to do with the subtle body, then basic instruction on purification practices and so on can be useful and that it is a common thing.

>im actually a big pseud in this domain
thats not a bad thing at all, but since you are planning to go intense in tantra (i say because shingon is pretty much a japanese port of tantric buddhism), yoga and so on even the traditional stuff, some basic info about it may be necessary at some point

[Anonymous No.23454041]

>>23445087
A little off topic but does anyone have any advice for finding a physical copy of Evola’s Pagan Imperialism? It’s proving very difficult to find

[Anonymous No.23454048]

>>23454037
Personally Im going to disagree, and I cringe every time I see a westerner post images of esoteric diagrams like the ones youve posted which were not even shown to the tibetan until the time of being initiated into the specific buddhist tantra they wouldve paid in gold for!

not only does it betray a "consumerization" of the subject, it also shows that probably its more than likely that the person posting such diagrams does not even really know whats being represented.

I think people should take G.'s warning and not just plunge themselves into such a psychically charged religion/practice which has probably for the most part lost its effectivity for the majority of people in modern western culture. I mean how many people on 4chan are porn-addicts? and you are trying to get them involved in a sexually charged erotic mysticism assuming that is the case, it could really be like throwing a match at someone whos poured gasoline all over themselves.

also the very nature of Vajrayana the way its done in the west were people say oh Im a follower of X lama, is refuted by guenon when he talks about the role of a guru, should be like a person who gets you to a certain level, then you move on without any attatchment whatsoever. Vajrayana whilst it definitely is legitimate, in the west is a strong sign of being counterinitiation, especially considering guenon talking about avoiding the traditions which are all about psychic entities, psychic influences and all that, when the spiritual influence has been compromized. I have literally seen people talk about worshipping tantric deities like they would a dualistic deity not as just a support to meditiation, like a raft you use to cross a river then discard, this is clearly the sort of misunderstanding guenon wanted us to avoid, and why one should be cautious before plunging himself into these traditions.

[Anonymous No.23454053]

>>23454048
>I have literally seen people talk about worshipping tantric deities like they would a dualistic deity not as just a support to meditiation
and that is taken like an end in itself, there have also been lamas who try intentionally to keep the disciples stuck to them, none of this is actually necessary on the spiritual path.

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23454196]

>>23454040
so you mentioned Sadhu Om was quite based
what's his deal?
Ramana Maharshi's successor or just influenced by him?

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23454212]

>>23454041
unfortunately the guy who translated the book passed away last year so i doubt it will be reprinted in the near term

if you want my honest opinion, it's not a book worth hassling over to find a physical copy. Evola himself said it was the most retarded book he wrote.

[Anonymous No.23454224]

>>23454212
I’ve seen that a company has published a number of his essays which seem to involve similar topic under the title of the metaphysics of power, so do you think that could be a good substitute for pagan imperialism?

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23454234]

>>23454224
um there may be a relevant essay or two on the Imperial Roman tradition
it's more of a historical critique of various political systems
good book though

I know there's another version of the title called "Heathen Imperialism"
you might have some luck there

[Anonymous No.23454306]

>>23454234
Ok I’ll take a look, thanks for your help

[Anonymous No.23454336]

>>23453959
It's worldly but in an unexpected yet salient way. Grounding yourself in the average of the world makes you one with it.
>>23453955
So you should be trying to become a jack of all trades or something? Why not just refine yourself towards a certain excellence and ignore everything lesser?

[Anonymous No.23454682]

>>23454234
Not that anon but I remember seeing and downloading a Full translation of man and becoming by cologero a bit before he passed, however the file seems to have dissapeared, all that remains is a sample introduction translation online.

[dago !NSA.1dx9Yo No.23454746]

>>23454682
https://www.gornahoor.net/library/ManAndHisBecoming_Sample.pdf

>Full
I don't think it ever made it to the public, unfortunately

[Anonymous No.23454813]

>>23454048
Vajrayana takes desire into the path, it's for people with desire

[Anonymous No.23454842]

>>23454746
That's unfortunate, I remember a post by cologero indicating it was finished. I guess it's lost to time now.

>>23454336
You come off the ground and go where next? In the air of the extreme or below the earth into darkness into another extreme? Being grounded to earth is definitely a good thing.

>towards a certain excellence and ignore everything lesser
Yes, that excellence is the supreme good, the kingdom of heaven which against there is nothing opposed. Not a lesser good opposed to an evil, like money against poverty and obscurity. If you are talking about it in that sense I can't understand what you'd possibly mean, we can only cultivate the lesser goods to a certain extent but not anymore, they are only for sustaining a bodily life and in themselves again they're insufficient because they can be opposed. Why cultivate what is insecure, instead of what is secure? Now nothing implies that one should not cultivate a bodily life, but the sort of aim here and the root of virtue is only the kingdom of heaven, that is the only justice there is. The rest is tainted by injustice, in truth the idea that there is a lesser good and evil which respectively are the reward for the person who does good and the punishment for the person who does evil, is only a mental interpretation of the world and life. Really things do not work that way, the evil often have the lesser goods in abundance in this world, whereas the person who does does good is the receiver of the evil. If anything is that not what is shown by the disgracing of christ by the Jews in the gospels? In other words life is indifferent, there is no justice in the world outside of our mental fancy. The only justice is that we realize the Kingdom of Heaven which is the highest good, which has no opposite, is eternal and is secure. To do so it's best to not lay down any expectation on life, life is unfolding yes and looking after bodily health, etc. Is a must, but really so much of the mental interpretations, ideas and suffering to do with expectations and demands (all supported by the false view that there is sufficient justice and rewards to be dispensed in our worldly transactions), the consciousness of duality is part of the issue clearly.

>Our being thus, from threshold unto threshold throughout the realm, is a joy to all the realm as to the King, who draweth our wills to what he willeth.
– DANTE, Paradiso

[Anonymous No.23454847]

>>23454813
Funny how every vajrayanist on the internet says this like it captures something which would mean something to someone not in the same cult.

[Anonymous No.23454911]

>>23445087
will grad school applications take me seriously if I try to tackle guenon or is this better left for my personal life

[Anonymous No.23454921]

>>23445686
i sense some nietzsche semite vs indo-european here

[Anonymous No.23454939]

>>23454911
Personal life. There's no question, unless you want to enter specifically Trad larping academia, are you in the US are you entering grad school for Religion? There are some Trad guenon affiliates who came to it via Schuon, examples include scholars like Huston Smith, Seyyed Hossein Nasr, James Cutsinger aswell it's a niche. However they obscure the Guenon part and many of them rather take on the formalisation of Schuon, unless you are entering some field like Comparative Religion/Theology, I would say it is most unwise to do so. I have seen online theses advised by those academics aswell, related to "mysticism," religion and philosophy. You'd have to look into it, personally I find it all to be in bad taste, but it is interesting to see what passes as "academia" engaged in by the educated classes these days.

[Anonymous No.23455001]

>>23454939
basically my train of thought rn is that since the qur'an is eternal guidance for humanity, when it points to individual civilizations (rome, the peoples that got sent messengers, god created you in nations to get to know each other, dhul qarnayn going east and west), we should probably admit that nations and cultures have immaterial essences. so what is the essence of the west? i haven't done too much research yet and it is kinda larpy

[Anonymous No.23455062]

>>23455001
>basically my train of thought rn is that since the qur'an is eternal guidance for humanity, when it points to individual civilizations...
I see a problem here, the individual civilizations being transient and perishable, cannot proceed from the imperishable, intransient and eternal. So we cannot say that eternal guidance applies to the nations and cultures, the infinite and finite are discontinuous.

>nations and cultures have immaterial essences
If such questions really tickle your fancies I would recommend you look into the theories about Temporal cycles, ie. Iron Age, Golden age, etc.

Essence is what is, so any description will fail. What sort of answer were you expecting, in the bible it talks about the gods of other nations, that's about as close as we can get and for obvious reasons these gods are not immaterial essences.

I may be off the mark, anyway since you mention immaterial essences, that implies there is a set plurality of these things, all I'm aware of is like Life, Time, Space, etc. You will need to elaborate on what immaterial essences are, if you have a definition its up to you to then determine a method to accurately depict the nation/culture then apply the definition to determine the "immaterial essence"

[Anonymous No.23455093]

>>23455001
Also if we are talking about something material with a form, we can only give a descriptive answer invested in form. Otherwise we can be prescriptive, however that will be difficult, first we have to define what is the objective criteria for a nation, to be a nation still at the level which is divested of form.

If it had no form and is immaterial can it really be connected to a particular nation? Like with the Israelite descriptions of the gods of other nations, these gods were always material.

Do you have some immaterial essences in mind which are used to describe other nations? If we knew these maybe the question would become clearer

[Anonymous No.23455124]

>>23455001
>we should probably admit that nations and cultures have immaterial essences
Also what is a nation but a collective? Do you admit that individuals have immaterial essences? If so since a collective is a sum of individuals a nation must have many immaterial essences as many as the number of individuals comprising that collective.

[Anonymous No.23455154]

>>23455124
>>23455062
yah but god says its "rome" not ahl al rum when he says they been defeated so that points to one essence no?

[Anonymous No.23455202]

>>23454847
It means being full of desire isn't an obstacle to Vajrayana practice

[Anonymous No.23455246]

>>23455093
a recurring theme is the umma wahida (one nation) of Islam ; and the hadith that the ummah is like one body