/IEG/ - Imperium Europae general

[Anonymous No.23403873]

This is a place for all things fiction, poetry, history, and philosophy regarding the Imperium Europae movement. - #6

ESSAY #2:
>Empires Versus States, by Josep Colomer
The classical analytical category of " empire, " as opposed to " state, " " city, " " federation, " and other political forms, can account for a large number of historical and current experiences, including the past United States of America, the European Union, Russia, and China. An " empire " has been conceived, in contrast to a " state, " as a very large size polity with a government formed on movable frontiers, with multiple institutional levels, overlapping jurisdictions, and asymmetric relations between the center and the diverse territorial units.

download here:
>https://mega.nz/file/rSRnACYJ#VJ8vmvoCYpfljs1EyCXJA1CAPvFXU2gBhg5_uaDtXCg
the file is encrypted, pass is
>7bAZXdsYhr3K1Z8nm8Gw

In the next threads we will be reading and discussing important art, culture, history, and political essays.
Regardless of the original problems they were aimed at, the concepts they introduce and the analyses they contain are extremely relevant to the issues we face today such as AI, the inefficacy and decline of nation-states, the growing rift between entertainment and 'real' art, and more.

Thread elaboration (old, cringe version, new one is under construction):
>https://pastebin.com/7sGN2tZa

Old thread: >>23388583

History assignment:
>The Making of the Middle Sea: A History of the Mediterranean from the Beginning to the Emergence of the Classical World, by Cyprian Broodbank
Schedule, details, and download links for the book:
>https://pastebin.com/wyCKNY70

Recommended epub app:
>https://calibre-ebook.com/
Bibliographic management app for PDF storage, organization and annotation (zotero 7 is better even though it's still in beta):
>https://www.zotero.org/support/beta_builds
Personal knowledge base for note-taking:
>https://obsidian.md/

>[...] if we do not understand the deeper past and its trajectories towards the present, we shall never grasp the conditions of our humanity, nor comprehend our present predicaments and impending futures. - Broodbank, The Making of the Middle Sea

Happy reading!

[Anonymous No.23403877]

>>23403873

[Anonymous No.23404068]

>>23403873
>>23403877
>One of the reasons for overlooking the usefulness of the concept of empire may have lied in its confusion with imperialism. An “empire” means a form of polity, that is, a form of organization of a political community. A polity can be organized as a city, a county, a region, a state, a federation, or an international organization, among other categories, each based on different scales of the territories under their jurisdictions. The specific form of polity called “empire” implies a large area and it’s different from both a sovereign state, which tends to be smaller, and a great international organization formed by sovereign states.

>Imperialism is something different: a policy of conquest and domination of foreign lands and populations. In fact, an imperialistic policy can be implemented not only by an empire, but also by the other forms of polity. There can be imperialistic states, as was the case of the colonial empires of European states in America, Africa, and Asia. And there can even be imperialistic cities, as historical experiences such as those of Sparta or Venice, for instance, can suggest. Likewise, polities like a city, a state, or an empire can do non-imperialistic policies, but favor transnational cooperation and peaceful coexistence. Modern history shows all these alternatives. An imperialistic policy and an imperial polity are two different things that may come together or not. An encompassing review of ideologies of imperialism is provided by Jennifer Pitts (2010). Niall Ferguson (2003, 2004) has discussed the relevance of the experience of the British and the American empires for the organization of the current globalized world.
quote from the essay on the difference between imperialism and empire

[Anonymous No.23404252]

>>23403873
Is this the essay you were arguing with the sperg about a couple of threads ago? I'll check it out tonight.

[Anonymous No.23404277]

>>23404252
yes, this is where I got inspired to adapt "empire" from polity to culture
looking forward to seeing what you think

[Anonymous No.23404578]

>>23404277
Curious, I'd never heard of Colomer. Let's see.

[Anonymous No.23405014]

>>23403873
>A world’s single government is not foreseeable from historical developments. When the tendency toward increasingly larger sizes of empire, as measured by territory, has been extrapolated, it has been found only a 50% probability of a single world empire by a date placed between 2200 and 3800 (depending on the author making the calculation).
so, Spengler was correct??

[Anonymous No.23405320]

Bumping the based effortposter

[Anonymous No.23405432]

>>23405320
thanks, anon
I'll post some thoughts tomorrow as this essay points to much larger issues with states than I thought
>>23405014
I haven't read Spengler, can anyone tell more more about his work? I've heard of the Decline of the West but that's about it

[Anonymous No.23405577]

>>23405432
>Spengler, can anyone tell more more about his work?

His basic premise is that history and the view of it is not a single line from unenlightened savages to civilized man. But rather each High Culture (basically the enthno-cultural groups that have dominated specific areas, Middle-Eastern, Classical, Aztec, European, Egyptian) each have their own world view that can affect everything from their conception of science and maths to their formulation of creative works and even perception of time and space. These High Cultures can be roughly, very roughly, be plotted like a living organism in which there is a peak in size, influence and more. They also exhibit certain features.

The word decline and his grim face lend to the idea that the book is very pessimistic and filled with doom and gloom predictions of how the noble west has fallen. That is an incorrect view of it and only demonstrates the poster has not read anything but a Wikipedia article, whom also likely never read anything of his.

He also has a few other shorter works, Prussianism and Socialism contrasts Liberal Democracy against enlightened authoritarianism and favorably supports Prussianism.

[Anonymous No.23406806]

>>23405577
checked
that's very interesting precisely because the /lit/ discourse around Spengler uaually makes him out to be a doomer
what you're saying sounds closer to what I'm currently researching and working on, so I'm putting him on my personal "to read" list, thanks

[Anonymous No.23407161]

>>23403873
>Second, institutional changes are produced by human decisions favoring security, freedom, and well-being, such as can be provided by modern electoral democracies.
woowee, way to ignore the mode of production as a driver behind these changes

[Anonymous No.23407167]

>>23404578
He has only one English language book so I wish listed that

[Anonymous No.23407180]

To get on these thread’s wheels. I have recently read more from the Library of America and of the brillant writings of Paine and Jefferson’s many experienced views and lessons on humanity and reality, and have acquired a new fondness for the French literary giants of Flaubert, Diodet, Beauvoir, Voltaire, Maupassant, Honeré, Sand, Zola, and Vigny as some my new favorite and fluffy wholesome literature. Way more realistic and erudite than the German, in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.23407230]

>>23407161
I noticed that, too
electoral democracies provide very good conditions for wealth generation at the expense of security, freedom and well-being
in other words, they are paradoxical structures being constantly rent apart by attempts to provide certain conditions for people, while at the same time allowing the existence of economic entities that grow by breaking down the very same conditions
these paradoxical interactions are coded into the late modern western world as "liberté, égalité, fraternité"
>>23407167
based
>>23407180
you are experiencing what I'm hoping to spark in others with this journey through world-European history, it's an "unfettering" of perception that allows one to see the whole horizon, and not just a sliver
it becomes obvious how superficial so many attempts at addressing the problems of our age are (it also makes it incredibly easy to spot mono-view retards shouting opinions from the bottom of the well hole that is their understanding of reality)
I'm not familiar with the Library of America, care to tell me more?

[Anonymous No.23407288]

>>23407230
The Library of America is a non-profit publishing press that publishes compiled works, be they post-mortem private letters or works published publicly, from various Founding Fathers, Civil War (Northern) belligerent writers/advocates, and American authors like William Faulkner, Edgar Allan Poe, and Mark Twain. To quote from the back of their published books: “The Library of America, a nonprofit publisher, is dedicated to preserving the works of America’s greatest writers in handsome, enduring volumes, featuring authoritative texts.”.

[Anonymous No.23407302]

>>23407288
checked
that sounds amazing, I wish we had one here
one day we'll make an Imperial library that does the same thing, acid-free paper and all

[Anonymous No.23407318]

>>23407302
You should check it out if you are interested in American history, or just the writing from the country. It’s praised by knowledgeable Libertarians and patriotic Americans for they tumultous work. Think of it similar to Loeb’s Classics publisher, that publishes in Greek and Latin. I would recommend reading Paine and Jefferson’s erudite and interesting works on all sorts of topics if you do. The paper they use is also satisfying to touch and the font’s fitting and smooth to read.

[Anonymous No.23407930]

>>23407318
thanks, anon
I am going to get some for my personal library, after all American history is part of world-European history

[Anonymous No.23407995]

>>23403873
>According to the data provided by Colin McEvedy and Richard Jones (1978) and Taagepera (1997), there is no evidence of empires larger than 10,000 km much before 3000 BC. The largest ancient empires, in Egypt and Mesopotamia, with about one million km, were still tiny compared to the present ones. The largest ones at the beginning of our era, in China and Rome, were already much larger, with about five million km. But modern empires, including Russia and the colonial empires of Spain and Britain, have encompassed double-digit millions of km.
I think this can be addressed by the speed of
> information exchange
> exchange of physical goods
in that order
and this can be demonstrated by the information we have from "The Making of the MIddle Sea", which is that maritime travel was much faster and allowed for the exchange of information and goods in the areas which geographically promoted it (long, accessible rivers and the Aegean)
this gave a head start to civilizations in these areas in the millennia when shipbuilding technology and navigation were shit (like Egypt with the Nile, and Mesopotamia with the Tigris–Euphrates river system)
it's interesting that Greece didn't become a big empire for its time given its long tradition of maritime exploration and trade, but they did become the intersection for so much culture and information that instead of yielding a land empire, they produced what is now the center of the Imperium Europa

[Anonymous No.23408043]

>>23407995
Excellent post anon.

[Anonymous No.23408116]

>>23408043
thank you, anon
I'm trying to assemble a bunch of resources to use in my essay about the "movement" we're attempting here
to that end, does anyone know of good essays on the topic of "culture", as in what culture even is and how it relates to political/economic systems, something akin to Arnold Gehlen's "Crystallization of Cultural Forms"?

[Anonymous No.23408293]

>>23405577
This sounds interesting. Which bokk of his would you recommend as a start?

[Anonymous No.23408389]

>>23408293
seconding for interest

[Anonymous No.23408419]

>>23408116
>>23407995
You should definitely check out McLuhan's Understanding Media. In it, he describes how each new technology, like the phonetic alphabet and roads exert an outward centralizing effect and how this allowed the Romans to dominate and how the loss of the papyrus supply once Rome lost Egypt led to its downfall.

[Anonymous No.23408433]

>>23408116
This book doesnt really delve into how it relates to political/economic systems but it is a illuminating work that showcases Art and its role in society and how its progressed and 'devolved' throughout the centuries.

[Anonymous No.23408438]

>>23408419
not op, but thats sounds really interesting. will check out. thanks anon

[Anonymous No.23408472]

>>23403873
I assume you started this because you want to preserve the past and not forget Western excellence and so forth. But the world is tending in a direction where historical ties are loosened and power is spread out to the many. It follows that this will level out the spikes to create a more equal, but fair humanity, but given the fact that transhumanism and genetic editing are around the corner and the unwashed masses will have children who are brilliant beyond anything Western civilization has produced thus far I fail to see why any of this is important.

[Anonymous No.23408473]

>>23407995
>The present world can be seen as organized in at least four very large, powerful empires. In alphabetical order, which may coincide with the order of their relative strength, they are the following: America, China, Europe, and Russia. These political units encompass nowadays near 40% of the world’s population (and 80% of the world’s production).
and here I run into my first major issue in trying to reframe the historico-cultural entity of Europe as an empire, and that is that it must include Russia, and this leads to a discrepancy between the physical "empire" of Russia and it's cultural bond to Europe
this can explain the eternal Russian vacillation and constant attempts at existential self-affirmation as a different culture
but it doesn't point to an easy solution, because it has to be culturally folded into the Imperium Europa without it being perceived as a threat to their identity and political sovereignty (in a way, they already ARE a part of the Imperium, as this is just a reformulation and reassembly of existing states of affair)
>>23408419
>>23408433
I'm adding these on the research lists, they both sound exactly like what I'm looking for
thank you, anons

[Anonymous No.23408493]

>>23408473
No problem OP, keep effortposting, this board is dying but it can still be a place of learning and sharing of valuable information..what the internet was intended for.

[Anonymous No.23408571]

>>23403873
Just wanted to pop in and say that this whole thing has got me actually reading

[Anonymous No.23408605]

>>23408473
OP and all the anons on this thread, how do you guys have the time to read all of this? Im genuinely curious, there is so much to get through, and thats just history

[Anonymous No.23408622]

>>23408473
>my first major issue in trying to reframe the historico-cultural entity of Europe as an empire, and that is that it must include Russia, and this leads to a discrepancy between the physical "empire" of Russia and it's cultural bond to Europe
>this can explain the eternal Russian vacillation and constant attempts at existential self-affirmation as a different culture
There is no genuinely independent course for Russia, and any self-affirmation as a different culture is aesthetic or national and not at the level of a whole civilization. They do not have an American style breach where a creole separatist movement expelled the Europe-domiciled metropolitan authorities and invented a new civil identity. Russians are Europeans to everyone else but themselves, as their state begins in Europe and is continuous with it. Russian rule over the indigenous peoples of the steppes and Siberia is by the sword, Vladivostok is settler-colonial as much as other European outposts were. You can be sure that China is thrilled to have a European tributary and doesn't believe there is any unique Russian civilization, merely a political fracture among the occidentals. Russia is a renegade European country. It is no secret that the USSR cultivated its third world credentials for strategic purposes and presented itself as an enemy of an imperial Europe—it wanted eyes off its own empire. Better to focus on Angola and Zimbabwe than on Kazakhstan or Buryatia. No serious analyst should take this idea seriously—that a predominately white country with a traditional religion of Christianity and a European capital city is somehow not a European power. That the Russians are out of step with the rest of the Europeans is obvious, they are a literal and geographical edge case, like Portugal clinging to Africa in the Cold War when everyone else is leaving. But did Portugal successfully parlay itself into being recognized as a non-European lusotropical civilization? Of course not, they were forced to dismantle their empire. So there is your Russian question, does Russia preserve its empire by becoming a Chinese client, or does it release its eastern tranches and become part of Europe. (Europe cannot unilaterally swallow the whole of Russia bloodlessly, this will never be allowed without a fight by China or pro-Chinese Russian imperialists).

[Anonymous No.23408657]

>>23408605
There really is no incentive to pursue the fake multi-doctorate program gestating here. You could spend years reading the amount of historical, philosophical, and political works being mentioned. McLuhan's Understanding Media pairs well with Anderson's Imagined Communities, and that's already almost a month of reading for a non-NEET and that's without doing any of the history curriculum, simply to give you a grounding in how (some) modern people view the use of communication/media in forming and propagating ideas. On MY OWN list of things to work through I have more books than I could read in several years as is, and it must be similar for anyone who reads recreationally enough to keep a to-do list! I would encourage OP to restrain himself to a more narrow scope than all of European history if he merely wants to define a novel approach to historiography or interpretation. I think for what he appears to want to do you can and should truncate everything pre-modern, the study of distant history is bottomless, you could spend a lifetime on ancient Rome or medieval France

[Anonymous No.23408704]

>>23408657
This, there is so much to get through, i am not saying one should not try, however, for this thing to work, this needs to a more collaborative approach, OP has his plate full and thats on just history, i suggest some anons can work on other aspects lets say Literature, philosophy, political theory, music etc. i know philosophy fairly well and physics very well but i am a simpleton when it comes to history. idk, suggestions, thoughts?

[Anonymous No.23408750]

>>23405577
>>23408704
I actually have the book pictured that the poster is not talking about. I read it over a decade ago. Because OP has such a massive scope it is impossible to recommend anything, there's no reason not to keep reading.... However, in terms of what interested me then and still does, I recall reading that book alongside book(s) on the Ottoman and Habsburg empires. Also Venice, and Byzantium. Never bothered with France or Britain though, at least not in terms of monographs or entire-histories. Perhaps you can ferret out a theme here! I will give you a hint, check your favorite map app and see if there's a Venetian Republic or not.

[Anonymous No.23408776]

>>23408493
>this board is dying but it can still be a place of learning and sharing of valuable information..what the internet was intended for.
completely with you on that one
of course this is harder, but that is satisfying in its own way
>>23408571
I couldn't be happier, anon, genuinely
>>23408605
>how do you guys have the time to read all of this? Im genuinely curious, there is so much to get through, and thats just history
there is no single, good answer, but let me try
first >there is so much to get through, and thats just history
I am curating a history list that will let us go through world-European history from the Bronze Age to the end of ww2 (that is where I've chosen to cut it off for now)
I am researching what the best books are for each age/event/political body so that I can assemble a core list - this means that I will try to cut it down to the smallest number of books that one can read and still come away with a chronologically intact perspective (for example the Making of the Middle Sea is going to be the one book covering prehistory and the Bronze age, with a focus on the Mediterranean)
some ages will take up slots with a couple of books, generally growing in number as we get closer to the present day, but I will try to figure out a total number to orient ourselves by in the following days (and to discuss how achievable of a goal it is)
>how do you guys have the time to read all of this?
it's a bloodbath, really
I have days when I don't read at all, I have days when all I do is read, the one thing I can say is that consistency means MOST of the time not ALL of the time
as you read more of a given subject it makes reading the next book easier (and faster) to get through, it starts snowballing and books that used to take a month start taking a week - THAT is part of the effect I'm seeking to achieve with us who go on this journey
>>23408657
>>23408704
the original idea is to go through history first (with small philosophical detours along the way like the Republic) so that we have the context into which we can then place the philosophy and literature
I have left out visual art, music, Latin and Greek as something that will be considered at a later date
so while we read through the history (which is going to take time, make no mistake), we work on assembling the philosophy and literature lists
in the end, I expect this initiation to take years, maybe 5-7, but that is both a filter and part of the fun(?), because it means there will always be something to look forward to, there will always be others who are moving along with you, there will be a clear structure, there will be purpose
in the meantime I'm looking for suggestions on how and why we should structure the philosophy list
I firmly believe that we are capable of curating lists that are readable within a reasonable time span, and of extremely high quality
I am going to bed, so I will try to be clearer tomorrow and also answer >>23408622, >>23408704 and >>23408750

[Anonymous No.23410180]

>>23408571
What are you reading?

[Anonymous No.23410559]

>>23408571
Based

[Anonymous No.23410858]

>>23408776
hello, anons, I had work in the morning, I'll be back soon to continue the discussion

[Anonymous No.23411487]

>>23408622
>There is no genuinely independent course for Russia, and any self-affirmation as a different culture is aesthetic or national and not at the level of a whole civilization.
I completely agree
great analysis, anon! glad to have you here
>So there is your Russian question, does Russia preserve its empire by becoming a Chinese client, or does it release its eastern tranches and become part of Europe. (Europe cannot unilaterally swallow the whole of Russia bloodlessly, this will never be allowed without a fight by China or pro-Chinese Russian imperialists).
succinctly put
I think for our purposes we should consider Russian cultural contributions as European going forward, but what we can do is work out a way to crack open a door (for some of the people there) that they didn't know existed - a way to see their culture as continuous with the European one, yet retain a semi-autonomous consciousness
part of Colomer's analysis in the essay is that empires don't have fixed boundaries not just because they conquer and lose land, but because there are various dependencies, treaties, and other binding agreements which make the borders of an empire fuzzy, with various forms of allies and trade partners at the edges
Russia's cultural future is going to suffer if they form strong ties with China, because it is perfectly positioned (physically and not) to be part of the "fuzzy border" of the European empire
in fact, that places it in an extremely important position, because as was noted in "The Making of the Middle Sea"
>the edges alter the contents
>>23408704
I've read recent philosophy (and Plato and Aristotle), so I would be glad if you suggested where we should start (presocratics, etc)
we are not deciding the philosophy list now, we are just starting work and discussion
>contd. in the next reply

[Anonymous No.23411525]

>>23408750
>>>23408750
>Because OP has such a massive scope it is impossible to recommend anything
I am curating two lists
> a CORE list
> an EXPANDED list
the CORE list will cover an uninterrupted world-European history starting from the Bronze Age (we already have the book covering that and the first book about Greece)
and focusing on the central political entities/events of European history
this means that in order to craft a readable list we are going to have to drop regions, events and states that are not necessary for a solid overall understanding of "what happened and why"
an example would be this: the First Bulgarian Empire is relevant because it was one of Byzantium's big contact zones with mainland Europe for centuries, and reading about them is relevant for the EXPANDED list
the CORE list is going to contain books focusing on Byzantium itself because it is the main cultural and historical driver in the region
it is possible to craft such a core list that anything we read after that just gets "slotted" in - we are going to have a contextual framework in place for new historical knowledge
one can then go read about one's own history, regardless of how influential it was on the "big picture", because he is an heir to that specific confluence of events and culture

[Anonymous No.23411650]

>>23411487
>Russia's cultural future is going to suffer if they form strong ties with China,
They have a very transactional relationship with China. It's a similar setup with Russia facing Iran and Syria. These four have very little mutual civilizational heritage. The BRICS economic grouping makes this totally obvious, for Russia and China include in it even further unrelated countries like India and South Africa. On the other side you have NATO and the EU, which seem almost natural by comparison to the stiching together of an Islamic state, an Arab nationalist state, the archetypal eastern european mafia state, and a national[ly] socialist China. They are just geopolitical opponents of an Atlantic Europe, with Russia being their renegade European partner.
>>23411525
>the CORE list is going to contain books focusing on Byzantium itself because it is the main cultural and historical driver in the region
You could spend a long time there, 300-1500. This is why scope is important. Byzantium doesn't survive the Middle Ages and hasn't entered into the sort of geopolitical and civilization calculus you want to discuss for a very long time. It is worth knowing about to understand world-historical events impacting wider Europe like the Arab-Islamic conquests, the Pope crowning a Frankish king as Roman emperor, the Crusades, the rise of the Ottomans, etc. but for it to stand as its own unit of study is a matter for people specialized in that history. If you don't know anything about it's like having a missing planet since it exerts force on the others. But in the interest of time you can't be an expert on every planet. Byzantium has some interesting angles if you have a more focused approach as to what you want to know—it reinvented itself several times over, bureaucratically, administratively, even religiously. It held territory which was at times was literally overseas and had to invent forms of colonial administration to deal with that precarious situation. It faced enemies on two, sometimes three continents at once. It had to conduct routine diplomacy with neighbors very similar and very dissimiliar. It had to develop both centralized governing structures to keep its territory intact and deal with rebels, and more local and autonomous ones to respond to imminent cross border threats. You could spend a very long time here.

[Anonymous No.23411724]

>>23411650
>This is why scope is important.
I'm hoping we can come together and dial in the right scope for this "civilization calculus" (aptly put) to yield what we want
>If you don't know anything about it's like having a missing planet since it exerts force on the others.
this is what I want to counteract - we should observe the planet and its basic characteristics, plus anything particular only to it (something like the number of small lakes has little to do with its effect on other planets and should be avoided)
Eric Hobsbawm's trilogy about the 19th century is a very good example of the right amount of depth, and his left-leaning views and omissions can be easily offset with a couple more books
when you add essays and short works (Marx' 18th of Brumiere), and you can have a well-rounded understanding of the century in what would amount to 8-10 (not large) books
given that the 19th century is the penultimate one, and that it is very packed I think that'd be a good achievement (and one that would take anywhere between 2-6 months to get through)
naturally, some periods/states will need way less material

[Anonymous No.23411735]

>>23411650
>>23411650
>This is why scope is important.
I'm hoping we can come together and dial in the right scope for this "civilization calculus" (aptly put) to yield what we want
>If you don't know anything about it's like having a missing planet since it exerts force on the others.
this is what I want to counteract - we should observe the planet and its basic characteristics, plus anything particular only to it (something like the number of small lakes has little to do with its effect on other planets and should be avoided)
Eric Hobsbawm's trilogy about the 19th century is a very good example of the right amount of depth, and his left-leaning views and omissions can be easily offset with a couple more books
when you add essays and short works (Marx' 18th of Brumiere) you can achieve a well-rounded understanding of the century in what would amount to 8-10 (not large) books
given that the 19th century is the penultimate one, and that it is very packed I think that'd be a good achievement (and one that would take anywhere between 2-6 months to get through)
naturally, some periods/states will need way less material

[Anonymous No.23411958]

>>23411650
Read a history book, dumb cunt. They all have civilizationally influenced each other in the past, and NATO was the one stitching a Arab Islamist caliphate with KSA and UAE until changing strategy.
Iran is not Arab and has no interest in a caliphate. Iran is the number 1 stabilizing force in the region that fights against terrorism.

[Anonymous No.23411965]

>>23411958
>They all have civilizationally influenced each other in the past
I think you're missing how profoundly Russia is tied to Europe as opposed to something like China regardless of any cultural bleedthrough at its eastern edges

[Anonymous No.23412015]

>>23411965
If Europe left NATO, then it can become an ally of both Russia and Iran, sure. However, that will induce the enmity of USA.
You will also lose your investments in the Gulf Arabs most likely.
Presently, you are vassals of the USA.
If Europe were to pivot to Russia that could potentially lead to covert assassinations or WWIII.

[Anonymous No.23412027]

>>23411958
>NATO was the one stitching a Arab Islamist caliphate with KSA and UAE until changing strategy.
>Iran is not Arab and has no interest in a caliphate
Exactly... they are allied with Syria to contain Iraq and have corridor to Lebanon, both Iran and Syria allied to Russia to defend their interests against the US; it is not the same as the US/UK/Europe alliance where a conflict of interest means "how much should we spend to do x" and not "do we do x or y"? Russia will frame this latter approach as being a more collaborative ally vs some great-power hegemonic diktat, but that's a necessity when you share little in values or culture with a transactional partner. As you point out Iran is not Arab. But KSA and UAE are themselves not good Arab nationalists either compared to the Egyptian, Syrian, Iraqi govts, as they are Islamic monarchies first and foremost. US/Western policy is messy in the area, perhaps deliberately since regional insecurity among the Arabs benefits Israel (and Iran, though this is presumably not intended since it causes blowback for Israel).

[Anonymous No.23412035]

>>23412015
Why would Europe dissolve NATO? What US values and actions would cause that level of breach? What geopolitical purpose would a European-Iranian-Russian alliance serve? Russia's alliance with Iran in the first place is from a position of being a renegade European power. Why would Europe join?

[Anonymous No.23412042]

>>23412035
>Why would Europe dissolve NATO?
Russia will not become your close ally so long as you're a part of NATO.
>What US values and actions would cause that level of breach?
They could collapse your economies with IMF or World Bank shenanigans.
>What geopolitical purpose would a European-Iranian-Russian alliance serve?
Well, for one thing, it would have prevented the Migrant Crisis. Even Soleimani called the refugees subhuman rapists.
>Russia's alliance with Iran in the first place is from a position of being a renegade European power.
It's due to shared enemy of America and dislike of NATO hypocrisy.
>Why would Europe join?
Do you prefer to remain a vassal of the USA?

[Anonymous No.23412046]

>>23412015
>>23412027
>>23412035
>>23412042
we are getting sidetracked, the point was to figure out how to approach incorporating Russia into Imperium Europae, if not wholly then as a cultural frontier
everything else will follow from this

[Anonymous No.23412053]

>>23412042
>Why would Europe join?
>Do you prefer to remain a vassal of the USA?
also the point is not to dissolve NATO, but to finally separate and delimit the European cultural empire, which will bring focus back to "domestic" culture as opposed to USA imports
the difficult part is that they, too, are a branch of western thought as it began in ancient Greece, but at some point we will have to show how and why they separated themselves in some ways to the point of being considered a cultural empire of their own

[Anonymous No.23412054]

>>23412027
>But KSA and UAE are themselves not good Arab nationalists
Both America and Israel were financing the spread of Wahhabism. Saudi Arabia even financed radical madrassa schools in the West.
Wahhabism / Salafism are inherently Arab supremacist.
America and Israel even aided and funded Al-Nusra and ISIS.

[Anonymous No.23412058]

>>23412042
The US is not responsible for the EU's patchwork of migration policies. Also Russia and Iran have both been transit countries allowing migration into Europe. If anything, an EU which contained Russia would be in the best position to bribe Turkey/Libya/Iran to help on their side of the border, not one preparing for war with the US on because it has sided with Russia and China on an anti-western foreign policy

[Anonymous No.23412061]

>>23412046
It's not going to happen so long as you're a part of NATO. For example, NATO is pro-Ukraine.
>>23412053
It's not going to happen unless you become America's enemy. America has been exporting its culture to Europe at an alarming rate for awhile now.
The average modern European (but not all) is Americanized.
Americanization is one of its strongest weapons.

Ideally what would be best for Europe is America to fall into civil war and Balkanize.

[Anonymous No.23412062]

>>23412054
I am thinking in terms of baathist and nasserist type states where political Islam was considered subversive, though this model has been pushed down the stairs by US (and to some extent Iranian) meddling.

[Anonymous No.23412066]

>>23412058
>The US is not responsible for the EU's patchwork of migration policies
It has strong influence. You need to look into it more. Some US politicians were gloating about the Migrant Crisis destabilizing Europe, but I will need to find the sources again.
>Also Russia and Iran have both been transit countries allowing migration into Europe
This is a lie.
>If anything, an EU which contained Russia would be in the best position to bribe Turkey/Libya/Iran to help on their side of the border, not one preparing for war with the US on because it has sided with Russia and China on an anti-western foreign policy
None of these problems would exist without America or Israel in the first place.

[Anonymous No.23412072]

>>23412062
Iran hasn't done a single thing to harm Europe, shill.
The vast majority of Europe's issues are traceable to USA, Israel, and KSA.

[Anonymous No.23412075]

>>23412061
>The average modern European (but not all) is Americanized.
and we're here to counteract that in a "top-down" approach, curating lists of European culture and initiating ourselves in the world-European spirit of our heritage so that slowly, through a small group of people it gains a foothold and beings to creep into different fields (what I'm aiming with this 'movement' is not limited to /lit/, this is just the beginning)

[Anonymous No.23412082]

>>23412062
Iran could have potentially been the number 1 ally of Europe. For example, hosting Holocaust Denial Events is one of the best things you can do for European nationalism and sovereignty. By exposing the exaggerations of the Holocaust and demystifying it, the founding myth of the liberal dystopian nightmare is demolished. There is nothing more noble and honorable than exposing lies and deceit.

[Anonymous No.23412159]

>>23412066
>>23412072
>>23412082
The US doesn't always act in the best interests of Europe, but relations with Iran would be entirely transactional. You are also giving Americans too much credit for making Europe have more liberal domestic policies on immigration or whatever—Europe has always been to the left. Understandably one of you is a neo-nazi so your opinion on everything is upside-down
>>23412046
>how to approach incorporating Russia into Imperium Europae
you will have to deal with people who think this a choice between Russia and the US... strictly speaking what are Russian interests? 90% of these are undermining Europe on behalf of the putin mafia and the rest are security issues vs China and central Asian Islamists as a result of their land empire, expectly we have caught apologists for all sorts of anti-European states in the thread in suggesting Russians are Europeans! They want to keep their friend because he is a renegade European, not because he is a Russian

[Anonymous No.23412183]

>>23412075
>world-European spirit
Doesnt exist. Intellectuals really should stop navel gazing and focus on functional solutions.

>inb4 cope

[Anonymous No.23412247]

>>23412159
>Understandably one of you is a neo-nazi so your opinion on everything is upside-down
And you're a Jew.
The National Socialists were the lesser evil and would have been better for Europe in the long-run.

[Anonymous No.23412342]

>>23403873
>imperial-type asymmetry
I am interested in how these asymmetries translate to culture
taking just ancient Greece to be the center is inadequate for many reasons, so I propose a double center, a Greco-Roman center
then the asymmetries will not be geographic but
>temporal (e.g. the Byzantine Empire as a direct successor to the Roman Empire/the French revolution styling its attempted republic after the Roman Republic)
>combinatorial (harder to elaborate)
>capacitive (hardest to elaborate)

[Anonymous No.23413350]

The most important power structures are cultural not military or politics. The Soviets were dissolved through western cultural supremacy. Gorbachev did a Pizza Hut commercial.
The world should in theory be able to have international shared ideals that are still generally anti-globalist. The regions can agree to frameworks that emphasize the sovereignty and ethnic distinctness of each region. For a while in some areas at least this is what the "imperium" of Christianity looked like. The king of kings wasn't a guy somewhere in a capital but a shared ideal that allowed distinct nations as relatively stable entities.
Russia and Europe fight about cultural ideals, neither minds the other when they feel like the other is roughly on the same page culturally but Russia has never been more justified in their sperging than now. We reached a point of no return where any appeal to common historical ideals is empty. The representatives of the west have no grounding to say anything. The facts they can point at like Putin also being a corrupt fucker doesn't have any weight behind it in context.

[Anonymous No.23413937]

good morning, anons
>>23413350
>The most important power structures are cultural not military or politics.
yes
>The regions can agree to frameworks that emphasize the sovereignty and ethnic distinctness of each region.
precisely what is being presented as one of the key traits of empire in the essay we're discussing
I firmly believe that there is a way forward in which a distinct European cultural empire can be realized by the people who have inherited it, and that starts with getting a group of people to perceive what is already there (the "invisible empire") so that they can then be the foundation from which the perception spreads
once that has begun, attention can be paid to the specific systems which would physically embody a cultural empire (the next essay we will discuss is going to deal with this idea)
there are three things the European Union lacks that are preventing it from realizing an imperial consciousness
>perception of its own cultural empire
>unifying visual language, i.e. symbolism
>unifying imperial framework
the last one exists to some extent with the European commissions and administrative organs the EU has extended into each member state, but they are currently too ineffectual in most cases while being too rigid in the few cases they decide to act, not considering the unique situation of its constituent members when disagreements arise (in other words, it's trying to solve most of its internal problems the same way regardless of what ethnic group, local history, or need there is)
we are here to address the first issue of seeing, strengthening and revealing for all the cultural empire, everything else will follow

[Anonymous No.23414213]

>>23413350
>World War I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBYuWXIfJ4

[Anonymous No.23414257]

>>23413937
>>23413350
I believe the meaning of the moment is that each one of us finds himself standing in front of the abyss. The past cultural forms are illegitimate and deactivated. The Arche is concealed. Jannies are out for you soul to hegel you back into submission. Everywhere is terrible mind-numbing noise. I even quit shitposting (my beloved hobby).

My prophetic channel dictates that one must start with himself; somehow lit the lamp. Brighten the common chaos with blind determination, and harness the inexhaustible energies of the deep. It must be art. Even if art of the damaged creatures. It must show fearlessness and child-like zeal. Even if only, at the initial stage, to be mocked by the crowd. I see: it will stop being conservative in the sense that there is something to preserve. (Hence fear of losing. Lower spiritual T. and mana, etc. Women feel that and are repulsed.) That was the prerogative of the generation before the last man. And after the last man comes the Child. As it was in the dawn of it all. Yet the Child is damaged. And beyond thought. No cultural baggage, only that which is written on the emerald tablets of the heart. And the Child starts to invent and radiate the work into the world, and the form starts to appear. And others in the resonance rejoyce. And the form clears the horizon, and those in the form start to breath, to reawaken unto the eternity.

[Anonymous No.23414366]

not sure whether i find this thread based or cringe but i will draw to your attention oswald mosley's concept Europe A Nation
desu i can't work out what it substantively stood for but it sounds potentially aligned with what you're attempting here and worth, if you don't already know it, checking out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_a_Nation
he and his wife also published a magazine, The European, with some relatively illustrious contributors (Pound)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_European_(1953_magazine)
available as an archive though i have looked at very little of it myself
https://www.oswaldmosley.com/the-european/

[Anonymous No.23414372]

>not sure whether i find this thread based or cringe
oh, though i must say it's incredibly cringe how you keep shitting up /clg/, please stop

[Anonymous No.23414384]

>>23414366
thank you for the recommendation, I'll take a look
>a magazine
there's an idea, but I'm shelving it for the time being
>>23414372
wait, is there someone on /clg/ saying he's from here? show me
I have posted there only once to ask about why the links are posted with "dot"

[Anonymous No.23414399]

>>23414257
>one must start with himself; somehow lit the lamp. Brighten the common chaos with blind determination, and harness the inexhaustible energies of the deep.
yes
it is a burden bearable only by those who understand it is their duty to bear it
>And the Child starts to invent and radiate the work into the world, and the form starts to appear. And others in the resonance rejoyce. And the form clears the horizon, and those in the form start to breath, to reawaken unto the eternity.
good stuff, anon, it's interesting how you used "form" here, but I will have to come back to what you've touched upon here much later in the project lest I dox myself

[Anonymous No.23414403]

>>23414366
>not sure whether i find this thread based or cringe
it's giving picrel

[Anonymous No.23414417]

>thread shills shitting up /clg/
kindly rope.

[Anonymous No.23414422]

>>23414403
lmao
I try to answer everyone who seems to be honestly engaging with the thread no matter if it's a schizo or just someone who has misinterpreted my intentions
I think my talk about a European cultural empire has the tendency to draw people who think I'm trying to push in a very different direction than I'm aiming for, so I am working as fast as I can IRL to get a readable draft of my essay so we can clear that up
in the meantime I'll focus more on the essay topics and try not to stray into the overarching idea too much (or do my usual too much pathos thing)
>>23414417
please, post a link to who is doing it, because I have great admiration for /clg/ and I want to disassociate us from the retard

[Anonymous No.23414425]

>>23414417
I found him

[Anonymous No.23414448]

>>23414372
>>23414417
I hope the jannies ban him, I did drop a message on /clg/
good luck with him, anons, I'm sure he'll come in here and try to shit us up too for not aligning with his retardation
for everyone else wishing to have a maningful discussion here: do not engage him in any way shape or form, just skip over his posts if he comes here

[Anonymous No.23414450]

>>23414384
>wait, is there someone on /clg/ saying he's from here?
>>23412345
>We use the term "classical" in the traditional way here, as we are affiliated with the Imperium Europa movement, also on /lit/.
but possibly anon is just trolling and shitposting.

[Anonymous No.23414454]

>>23414450
>Please wait a moment before posting.
>my post is obsolete by the time the board lets me post it
thx u 4chan
>do not engage him in any way shape or form, just skip over his posts if he comes here
now i know this thread is based.

[Anonymous No.23414461]

>>23414450
thank you, anon
I'm sure this will come back to bite me in the ass, but I did post a reply distancing us from him
I'm sure most of the people who come here to discuss things are not like that, so far I've been extremely grateful for the honest engagement I've gotten and do wish to retain these anons
there will always be a tard, but we can manage that
>>23414454
kek, thanks
if I didn't write so slowly, I'd miss half the people I'm replying to

[Anonymous No.23414469]

>>23414450
simply love to be part of a sinologist group trolling the evropa imperivm thread on 4chan's literature board

[Anonymous No.23414478]

>>23414469
i'm learning latin
i just posted obscure oswald mosley publication links
i'm a fullblooded anglo-saxon
i'm as evropa as they come, i just know a faggot when i see one

[Anonymous No.23414565]

>>23408622
> and any self-affirmation as a different culture is aesthetic or national and not at the level of a whole civilization.
Respectfully, I have to disagree, folk russian elements are very bizarre when compared to wstern counterparts. And furthermore, you may be confusing the overt attempts to westernise Russia starting from Peter the great (Arguably going on since before but let's not get pedantic) with an inherent westerness, rather than something that was forced upon them. If you were to view Russian history through this lens, some things start to make sense.
>They do not have an American style breach where a creole separatist movement expelled the Europe-domiciled metropolitan authorities and invented a new civil identity.
I believe this was the Russian revolution. You wouldn't believe how much of the Russian Empire was the German Occupied Government.
>Russians are Europeans to everyone else but themselves,
Going deeper than the bare appearances is rather hard.
> doesn't believe there is any unique Russian civilization
Is what China thinks really relevant? The Chinese worldview, like all before and after it. Is as much informed by fantasy as it is reality.
Perception is not reality.
> Better to focus on Angola and Zimbabwe than on Kazakhstan or Buryatia.
The USSR did not treat these places like colonies. But as constituent parts of the metropole. It went to great lengths just to promote central asian locals into positions of power, foment cultural revivals, protect minority languages, etc. They even had a whole thing about fighting great Russian Chauvinism.
Now. The comparison to Portugal is erroneous because Portugal was always in synch with the broader trends of western europe, and sometimes even headed them. How could it not be? It was right there.
>So there is your Russian question, does Russia preserve its empire by becoming a Chinese client, or does it release its eastern tranches and become part of Europe.
Does Russia preserve the unity of its nationhood and capacity to project power, or does it dismantle itself so it can be a peripheral german fiedom for umpteenth time? Truly a though question that Iam sure the Noviops in charge will have to deeply think over. Especially since European atitudes about Russia have always alternated from being a civilized western country into being the second coming of the mongol empire depending on political expediency.

[Anonymous No.23414571]

>>23414565
>for the umpteenth time*
>Tough* question.
Sorry.

[Anonymous No.23414580]

>>23414257
"The knowledge to choose which foot I use to step over the threshold is within me even though I can't tell you now which foot it will be."
-Atlantean proverb.
We know the name of the child empress and we don't. If she's completely feral it means a 30.000 year delay before she takes the name we would have given her anyway. Art and play are magic. The evolution of play in animals reflects a metaphysical reality, a command from God to play.

[Anonymous No.23414777]

>>23414422
It’s sad that annoying trolling is the thing on their now over gatekeeping over language purity and only two languages (Latin & Greek) count, which is the worst thing for language learning. Even though Sanskrit should still count as both classical and originally ‘white’ or Aryan to fit the audience, along with Old Irish & Archaic Welsh too on same principle. I treat this

[Anonymous No.23414796]

>>23414777
Miss sent by accident on pressing enter [verification not required] and meant to say to that I treat this think as the encouragement of Indo-European language and literary learning thread. I also miss when Anons communicated in Latin and Greek on /clg/.

[Anonymous No.23414807]

>>23414777
>>23414796
Try again when your stroke has subsided.

[Anonymous No.23415215]

>>23414565
>an inherent westerness, rather than something that was forced upon them
It is true Peter the Great wanted to extend western European norms to Russia but that doesn't make Russians non-Europeans it makes them eastern Europeans or frontier/peripheral Europeans or indeed why not some hybrid of all three categories? European cities found by Vikings, rulers baptized by Orthodox missionaries, there's always a "western" influence
>I believe this was the Russian revolution. You wouldn't believe how much of the Russian Empire was the German Occupied Government.
The same could be said of turn of the century Poland or Hungary, directly ruled by German states, or even Greece with her Bavarian king. The British monarchy had not yet rebranded to Windsor. It was a pan-European theme at the time, to have a German dynasty, whether in Moscow or London.
>Is what China thinks really relevant?
Identity is as much a self-declaration as a recognition by others. The US census considers Russians white Europeans. The Japanese public considers a Ukrainian born beauty queen to be a white person and not Japanese. Dugin says Russia is Eurasian. That might be more accurate for Turkey or Armenia or Georgia, otherwise sounds like claiming you're Cherokee when you have blonde hair, blue eyes, and live in a suburb of Nashville.
>It went to great lengths just to promote central asian locals into positions of power, foment cultural revivals, protect minority languages, etc.
European archaeologists are the only reason Angkor Wat is the national symbol of Cambodia. Doea that mean France wasn't a colonial power in Cambodia? Russia, especially under the USSR had to maintain a delicate empire. Why did so many parts leave in the 90s if they felt they were integral constituents of the metropole? Shall we say, colonialism is a spectrum....
>Portugal was always in synch with the broader trends of western europe
Portugal's vestigal Cold War African empire seems like a clear outlier. Everyone else was letting go, they had to have a domestic revolution to be convinced. They were ahead in the 15th century, but behind in the 20th.
>Does Russia preserve the unity of its nationhood and capacity to project power, or does it dismantle itself so it can be a peripheral german fiedom for umpteenth time? Truly a though question
Russia would wield enormous influence in Europe if it were in the EU. It already does without having a single seat in the goverment. As a renegade European power it essentially is wasting its resources to get inferior results.

[Anonymous No.23415294]

>believing taciturn
https://vridar.org/2008/07/14/doherty-discusses-the-tacitus-annals-renaissance-forgery-question/

[Anonymous No.23415471]

>>23414454
damn, you guys somehow managed to attract a genuine sperg, holy shit, I feel bad for /clg/
is there something we can do from over here?
I'll be back to read and discuss >>23414565
and >>23415215
a bit later

[Anonymous No.23415748]

>>23415471
>is there something we can do from over here?
i don't think so beyond having disavowed him which may have taken a little wind out of his sails (thx OP)
>damn, you guys somehow managed to attract a genuine sperg, holy shit, I feel bad for /clg/
yep. but it wouldn't be 4chan without the occasional thread-derailing schizo. the chances are good he'll lose interest soon
anyway it seems a cosy lil thread you have here, i'll leave you to it but i'll keep an eye on your readings
happy reading

[Anonymous No.23415796]

>>23414565
>folk russian elements are very bizarre when compared to wstern counterparts
so is Balkan folklore, their fables are much more like the Russian ones than Anglo ones but there is no fundamental rift in thought between Russia/Balkans and the Western world that would warrant their cultural separation
the seed of western thought, an anon noted a while ago in a different thread, is the first Delphic maxim "Know thyself", which is particularly tricky to use as a basis for analysis of Russian culture, but it's one of the problems we'll have to solve along the way
>The USSR did not treat these places like colonies. But as constituent parts of the metropole. It went to great lengths just to promote central asian locals into positions of power, foment cultural revivals, protect minority languages, etc.
this is what leads to the massive conflict of opinion currently on display in Eastern Europe, the USSR exhibited many of the desirable traits of an empire, which led to the preservation of cultures and local histories that had been dying under various monarchies and young democracies in Eastern Europe trying to claw their way out of the mud for the entire beginning of the 20th century
>Does Russia preserve the unity of its nationhood and capacity to project power, or does it dismantle itself so it can be a peripheral german fiedom for umpteenth time?
see, what I'm saying is that with the Colomer's model of empire they don't have to do that, because they can have a different kind of link to the center of the European empire, and that is: preferential trade, more permeable borders than Europe and Russia otherwise present to the rest of the world, cultural and scientific ties on institutional levels (e.g. pairing Moscow Polytechnic with Imperial College London for student exchange and research collaboration), and a recognition of shared cultural heritage
they can remain autonomous as they are not beholden to the rest of Europe for anything
>>23415215
>Russia would wield enormous influence in Europe if it were in the EU. It already does without having a single seat in the goverment. As a renegade European power it essentially is wasting its resources to get inferior results.
unfortunately true, and aptly put
but if we do our work well enough here, we can present a case for a cultural integration of Russia that would require them to change nothing about who they are or how they operate, it would only see that they perceive the cultural Imperium they are also part of, and having perceived that, they will be able to exert intentional control over the future of their culture which is currently consigned to being a reaction to Western cultural spasms as the West blindly tries to feel its way forward
>>23415748
you're right, anon, and that's kind of the charm of 4chan
thank you, you'll always be welcome should you need anything or decide to join us for discussion

[Anonymous No.23415859]

>>23415796
>change nothing about who they are or how they operate
This is not correct, they would have to at minimum reach a Hungary-tier electoral system and political culture, which is a tall order for Russia but not as terrible as Russian imperialists insist it is, and I cite that for two reasons. First because an illiberal democracy is still a democracy and can credibly claim to interface with other democracies as a representative government. Hungary does experience some friction with the EU, but given trends in the rest of democratic Europe they might just be ahead of the curve. Secondly, Hungary rather than using its diaspora in Europe as a pretext for violence against other states instead allows them to vote in Hungarian elections— the Hungarians outside Hungary who are minorities in Romania etc. are themselves more conservative than Hungarians in Hungary. So all of Russia's objections to Europe as being a big gay US-run bathhouse are not only overblown, but had they been properly integrated a generation ago they would have been able to let Russians in Ukraine the Donbas and Crimea, as well as Estonia, other countries etc. vote in Russian-European elections like Hungary does with the Transylvanians, so there would always be this free conservative vote bank to keep the country less liberal than its western neighbors. (Netanyahu exploits this same concept in Israeli elections, quite literally, with the West Bank vote, without which, he would have to answer to atheists in Tel Aviv). That road was not taken and instead half of Ukraine is destroyed and hundreds of thousands of skilled Russian men have fled Russia, a country now facing an Iranian style western sactions regime. All over some warm water ports in the Black Sea that it could have co-owned with German and French and British investors instead of blowing them up.

[Anonymous No.23415935]

>>23415859
great analysis, anon
I agree with everything you said, it would have been the prudent move politically and economically, which brings us back to a point someone made earlier, which is
>The most important power structures are cultural
I think the decisions Russia is making right now are coming from a place of a cultural existential fear precisely because there is a loss of cultural identity for Europe thanks to the US, which makes Europe an nonviable cultural partner that seems to only be offering further dilution of what you fear losing
the road to integrating Russia into a cultural empire, even as a peripheral ally is the revival of a European cultural identity that is distinct enough to begin separating itself from the US and offer a hand to Russia for mutual stability and preservation (and affirmation) of the long traditions that have amassed for the past two and a half millennia, an which have produced some of the greatest human minds and human achievements in history (and which, even though I am not a cynical doomer, I can see are being relegated to "inconsequential" because of the massive disconnect recent generations have with everything that came before them)
the path to a future is through the past, but not via the traditional conservative reactionary attempts at preservation of "traditions" as-is and attempts to "RETVRN" to previous states by hyper-fixating on a certain art style or period
no, what comes next will be the living, breathing, vital heir of European high culture and it WILL be European high culture itself

[Anonymous No.23415949]

>>23415859
great analysis, anon
I agree with everything you said, it would have been the prudent move politically and economically, which brings us back to a point someone made earlier, which is
>The most important power structures are cultural
I think the decisions Russia is making right now are coming from a place of a cultural existential fear precisely because there is a loss of cultural identity in Europe thanks to the US, which makes Europe a nonviable cultural partner that seems to only be offering further dilution of what Russia fears losing
the road to integrating Russia into a cultural empire, even as a peripheral ally, is the creation of a European cultural identity that is distinct enough to begin separating itself from the US, and to offer a hand to Russia for mutual stability and preservation (and affirmation) of the long traditions that have amassed for the past two and a half millennia, and which have produced some of the greatest human minds and human achievements in history (even though I am not a cynical doomer, I can see these traditions are being relegated to "inconsequential" because of the massive disconnect recent generations have with everything that came before them)
the path to a future is through the past, but not via the traditional conservative reactionary attempts at preservation of "traditions" as-is and attempts to "RETVRN" to previous states by hyper-fixating on a certain art style or period
no, what comes next will be the living, breathing, vital heir of European high culture and it WILL be European high culture itself

[Anonymous No.23416040]

I am should be grateful for every instance of goodwill. some of those empire related thing are not so to say real. they are symbolic like glue sticking one unto facade farce all that untruth of history. however, imperium is somewhat of another king kind of idea: a morphic field attenuated into a particular aether of harmony. knights are bearers of its axial poles, nodes of im/potential whirling. tis about time and less about space.

[Anonymous No.23416070]

>>23416040
>a morphic field
I like this
>tis about time and less about space
yes! thank you, anon

[Anonymous No.23416188]

>>23403873

[Anonymous No.23416307]

>>23415949
>there is a loss of cultural identity in Europe thanks to the US, which makes Europe a nonviable cultural partner that seems to only be offering further dilution of what Russia fears losing
>the road to integrating Russia into a cultural empire, even as a peripheral ally, is the creation of a European cultural identity that is distinct enough to begin separating itself from the US
The European states, including Russia, have deep roots, and I mean this in the most pretentious, snobbish, insular way possible. The European is janus faced, a suspicious hobbit at home and an elf to the distant enough neighbor. So-called Americanism is dispensing with the mask, there is the grin and the handshake, the inside is outside, one is not a Catalan or a Swede at home and then something else as a diplomat, merchant, or businessman, he is an American at all times and places, which is to say he has nothing at home. Baudrillard, who was an OG shitposter, says something to the effect that Disneyland is the real United States, which is an impressively prescient critique of American culture. Even the American populism and nationalism we see today isn't about a real cultural heritage or sense of shared history, it's about building a better theme park. The more one inflates a sense of American-ness the more low-brow and commercial one becomes, the whole enterprise is to have enterprise. Even in terms of ancestry, Americans are a kind of recalibrated European, European identities that don't exist in Europe. In Appalachia for instance you have British descended people living in the entirely wrong... biome. They are more like Serbians than English people, Mountain English perhaps? (English mountains aren't real mountains, and America's "Ulster Scots" don't even know where they are from but certainly no mountains there either). Heading north you encounter a breed that literally does not exist in Europe, the Italo-Irish, (who like the Mountain British voted for Trump), millions strong as a sub-group but speak neither language and evidently have little barrier to intermarrying. Americans spit in tubes to verify what their heritage is—perhaps they are the Russians to an English Ukraine, forgetting they built their Moscow in a swamp far away from Kiev. As America becomes less European, it may become more evident to (white) Americans that they are in fact something else at home than in the world at large, and they might feel the same way about "America" that Russians feel about "Europe," that it's some weird gay place where people buy and sell things. But ultimately, there is a time and a place for the weird gay place where people buy and sell things, because the most opposite alternative is to live like a North Korean where you choose between having dinner and having artillery. The hobbits in Hungary gets their subsidies from the success of the weird gay bourses of Europe, but get to be Hungarians. Americans are still too libertarian to be cultured.

[Anonymous No.23416930]

>>23408116
Off the top of my mind I think of Matthew Arnold's 'Culture and Anarchy', T.S. Eliot's 'Notes on the Definition of Culture', and Josef Pieper's 'Leisure, the Basis of Culture' , though these works do not strictly treat culture in relation to politics or economics.
I will share with you a couple of my bookmarks which contain many lists and bibliographies according to subject that I find useful from time to time. They may help you in your endeavor.

https://pykewater.com/pagekl
http://bactra.org/notebooks/

[Anonymous No.23417052]

>>23403873
I'm curious, how do you reckon Europe as an empire without a governing body over it? And I don't mean modern Europe, like the EU, but something like early modern Europe. I could maybe see Catholic Europe prior to the Protestand Reformation, existing under the loose rule of the pope, but that excludes the Orthodox Europeans, like Russia, which has seemingly been a topic of debate herein, and you lose half of Catholic Europe with the Protestant Reformation

[Anonymous No.23417409]

>>23416188
checked, nice art
>>23416307
based
again, good analysis that clearly outlines the issue, and interestingly enough the notion of "janus faced" Europeans aligns with the idea of "paradoxical man", or man as capable of holding within himself identities that do not allow their contemporaneous existence but somehow find their synthesis in him (a good example is how people shit on their state and are proud to belong there at the same time)
this, of course, relies on man *having* identities and not *being* an identity, the latter being a very modern disease (preservation mechanism?)
the plurality of identities is very evident in cases such as Hungary (and most of Eastern Europe in general), and it is, to my surprise, what is pointing the way forward
it's proof that it is possible to have a superstructure to which one "belongs" (I am an Imperial citizen, and this is the common heritage I share with all other citizens), at the same time as they "belong" to their regional culture, history, and ethnicity (I'm a Hungarian, and these are the things which define my personal heritage), and it is this simultaneity that makes a new empire possible:
>The hobbits in Hungary gets their subsidies from the success of the weird gay bourses of Europe, but get to be Hungarians.
so, the beginning is in working on the perception of European culture and history as a totality (not in its total length an breadth, totality more like what Zukofsky meant in his essay "Sincerity and Objectification": "This rested totality may be called objectification - the apprehension satisfied completely as to the appearance of the art form as an object.")
>>23416930
Eliot's essay completely slipped my mind, thank you for reminding me, it's going to be one of the essays up for discussion in the thread soon
I'm adding
>Matthew Arnold's 'Culture and Anarchy'"
>Josef Pieper's 'Leisure, the Basis of Culture'
to my research list, and they do not have to strictly relate to politics or economics, we can do that through analysis and discussion here
thank you for the lists!
>>23417052
I don't think that would have been possible precisely because of
>I could maybe see Catholic Europe prior to the Protestand Reformation, existing under the loose rule of the pope, but that excludes the Orthodox Europeans, like Russia
oppositions such as this
A unified Europe could have potentially existed for *some* time under an empire like Napoleon's, but I do not think the conditions were ripe enough to yield something stable
we're at the point where we've exhausted religious-political rule, ideological segregation, racial-ethnic divide, and nation-state delineation in all of its forms - all this had to happen first for Europe to start circling back to empire (and it started doing so first politically and economically through the EU), but for it to be successful it will have to ground its unification attempts in a historico-cultural totality that encompasses what is otherwise variously divided

[Anonymous No.23417734]

>>23415215
>It is true Peter the Great wanted to extend western European norms to Russia but that doesn't make Russians non-Europeans
Not Geographically, no. But it does give you a hint that there exists something deeper there, maybe older, than what would normally be called europeanness. Because I do believe you have something specific in mind when you talk about europe, and it resides in Berlin, Paris, London, Rome, Vienna, Etc.
>European cities found by Vikings, rulers baptized by Orthodox missionaries, there's always a "western" influence
I will not allow you call medieval orthodoxy western. At the time, it was much more of an Anatolian religion. Vikings I think are too far from anything that can be considered ancestral to modern Europe, except maybe the Normans. But the two groups weren't even from the same scandinavian country.
>The same could be said of turn of the century Poland or Hungary, directly ruled by German states
It was more complicated than that. But Poland and Hungary are geographically inter-twined with Germany ina way Russia isn't. And regardless, outright annexation is different from your nobility and royalty being essentially hijacked by them, there was never a german population core that Russia was subjugated to, it was just ruled by, invited,and promoted germans.
>even Greece with her Bavarian king
It's not a secret that Greece met a great discordance between the expectations of their western liberators (AKA, the hellenes, the greece of Socrates, Xenophon, etc) and the Christian-Byzantine greece that actually existed. To this day I would argue Greece is still a partially artifical nation. Athens is not the capital because it was a pre-existing large city important to the country. It was a town of about eight thousand people.
>Identity is as much a self-declaration as a recognition by others.
Identity is an assertion. Being able to dictate what you are (within reason), is an important part of being a sovereign people.
>The US census considers Russians white Europeans.
It also used to regard the Sudanese as them same, not too long ago.
>Dugin says Russia is Eurasian.
Not a necessarily wrong assertion. Denying that Russia is of the steppe would be very foolish. And the steppe does not require any specific physical feautures to be of the steppe. The scythians were of the steppe, for example.
>Doea that mean France wasn't a colonial power in Cambodia?
Not analogous. French Idochina was not ran by the indochinese as part of a wider Federal French Imperial aparatus.
>Why did so many parts leave in the 90s if they felt they were integral constituents of the metropole?
The last country to be part of the USSR was technically Kazakhstan. Regardless, the dissolution of that state should not be viewed as countries leaving Russia, because after certain point in August it was becoming pretty clearly the union which was artifically keeping all these countries together would not hold any more.
cont.

[Anonymous No.23417742]

>>23417734
>Because I do believe you have something specific in mind when you talk about europe, and it resides in Berlin, Paris, London, Rome, Vienna, Etc.
nta (I'm OP), but I am trying to expand "europeanness" to NOT mean something that resides only in the west

[Anonymous No.23417754]

>>23417742
>
Lol amerimutt

[Anonymous No.23417762]

>>23417754
welcome, new anon
I say new, because had you been here in previous threads you'd know I am not American

[Anonymous No.23417769]

>>23417762
It doesn't matter what you are. You are infected

[Anonymous No.23417839]

>>23415215
>Portugal's vestigal Cold War African empire seems like a clear outlier.
One or two outliers do not make up for the fact that it was always in the thick of europe since the middle ages. No Portuguese Monarch ever had to de-easternize his country from all those icky mozarabic practices.
>Everyone else was letting go, they had to have a domestic revolution to be convinced.
France was suffering the same thing like ten years before. Just because portugal held out for ten to fifteen years more doesn't make it the grand exception.
>Russia would wield enormous influence in Europe if it were in the EU.
Maybe it would, but under your conditions the losses are too great and the wins to meagre.
>It already does without having a single seat in the goverment.
Only does so because of that empire you keep asking it to throw away so that it can be a periphery of "Europe".
>>23415796
>so is Balkan folklore, their fables are much more like the Russian ones than Anglo ones but there is no fundamental rift in thought between Russia/Balkans and the Western world that would warrant their cultural separation
Russian orthodoxy is rather spiritually alien from European Catholic and Protestant christianity.
>see, what I'm saying is that with the Colomer's model of empire they don't have to do that, because they can have a different kind of link to the center of the European empire, and that is: preferential trade, more permeable borders than Europe and Russia otherwise present to the rest of the world, cultural and scientific ties on institutional levels (e.g. pairing Moscow Polytechnic with Imperial College London for student exchange and research collaboration), and a recognition of shared cultural heritage
Tbh I think this would be the Ideal solution for both parties. As long as there is no demand that one give up something and essentially submit to the other.
>>23415859
Like this.
> they would have to at minimum reach a Hungary-tier electoral system and political culture,
They would have to reform themselves to fit European standards and beholden to European regulators, and so on and so forth.
In a way it almost contradicts the notion that these people are as european as the dutch or the french.
> Secondly, Hungary rather than using its diaspora in Europe as a pretext for violence against other states
States which repress this diaspora, mind you.
>That road was not taken and instead half of Ukraine is destroyed and hundreds of thousands of skilled Russian men have fled Russia, a country now facing an Iranian style western sactions regime.
If only this could have been been avoided, alas, the zorcs had to intervene while processes as natural and inevitable as oxidation and combustion where happening without any human action whatsoever.
>All over some warm water ports in the Black Sea that it could have co-owned with German and French and British investors instead of blowing them up.
What if instead of co-owning them it just owned them?

[Anonymous No.23417988]

I had doubted this thread was made in good faith when I visited a few days ago, but it seems of good quality actually. Bravo OP

>>23408622
Now I admittedly don't know much about Russian history compared to other places, but from what I do know, I'll say that this post seems rather misguided and only starts looking at Russian culture from the Petrine era. With that you ignore the centuries of Byzantine influence starting from Crimea and taking the form of Orthodox Christianity and various art forms. This cultural influence meant Russia, especially during the Rus' was a sort of sister state culturally to Byzantium, kind of like Korea to China or SEA to India. But for the Korea analogy, mixing of Byzantine culture with the local Slavic culture made it more like Japan in creating a very distinct culture with some Byzantine aspect. Since the modernisation of Peter and successors was rather top-heavy, these characteristics carried on in most Russians even into the USSR, leaving Russia as a different cultural entity. Would you say Japan is western because western fashion and music is popular, for example?

[Anonymous No.23418153]

bruuhs pls stop occupying your minds with le russia shit. look, I'll help you to save your time.

Novgorod was a part of the Hanseatic league. = Rus were Vikings/Varangians.

They got specially-military-operation'ed into the Muscovy by picrelated. (it must really clear the matter)

le '''Russian (cargo)Culture'''' was a pervert's indulgence to the ruling multi-ethnic oligarchy, cargo-copied from the west: "suffering good. our very special a la rus way.' and so on, all is exactly as today.

since then the real struggle was within the sectarian movement, authentic people (I believe they carried the spark of the original northern spirit) who hated and fought what they deemed to be the spiritual antichrist: the corrupt state and worldly power.

then soviet union. the biggest anthropological terrorist action. real damage. broken souls. never got any healing. no light no guidance. it was and is a hell hole, that is now visibly overflowing because of it's own inner contradictions.

it was never a nation but a melting pot experiment cemented in violence. that, however, doesn't mean there are no worthy people. but the final verdict: either original Rus or picrelated + various coping strategies. no reconciliation.

[Anonymous No.23418198]

>>23417988
thank you, anon
these are the exact gaps in history/philosophy/literature that I want to cover by having a common list of works for everyone of us to spring from
is there anything specific you've read that talks about early Russia and Byzantium, or would we find that in Byzantium-focused works?

[Anonymous No.23418264]

I’ve been learning Russian since all this Russia conversing is going on. The script and prefix system is rather easy then it gets let on by others. The cases are of course the hardest, but the flexibility of the language makes messing up of syntax and order less erroneous to speakers than other languages. I enjoy the Russian alphabet too, it’s smooth and well fitting for the language, both pre and post reform.

[Anonymous No.23418282]

>>23414580
She will be feral when one is soft, aka low IQ on magic and play. Magic is water, and the marble is shining. First thing is to catapult history away. Let the dogs and college graduates bussy themselves with it. They get paid for it, are they not? God is that subtle joke (formerly the Voice) in cs_assault map on an abandoned server that is preserved in aether in 2004-2006. It is empty. None is around to play. You are spectator mode. Laid down, heart-bits tickering: 'is it over?' Hm, does pope an Abrahamic cuck genocidal schemery? 'Bible, man.' Bibleman. And such is the Imperium. And the Stone. But only if you have enough courage to believe.

[Anonymous No.23418347]

>>23418282
I don't know how you do it, schizoanon, but
>God is that subtle joke (formerly the Voice) in cs_assault map on an abandoned server that is preserved in aether in 2004-2006. It is empty. None is around to play. You are spectator mode.
that hit hard
>>23418264
that's awesome anon, Russian has been on my personal list of things I want to learn for a while and I just haven't had time
>I enjoy the Russian alphabet too, it’s smooth and well fitting for the language, both pre and post reform.
Cyrillic is strangely beautiful, it feels less "rounded" than the Latin alphabet, even though the language itself has many soft sounds and diphthongs

[Anonymous No.23418474]

>>23418198
NTA, but there is "Sailing from Byzantium", a brief account of the Byzantine Empire as it transmitted Greek culture to the Slavs, as well as the Arabs and Italians.

[Anonymous No.23418520]

>>23417734
>I will not allow you call medieval orthodoxy western. At the time, it was much more of an Anatolian religion.
And what were Anatolians? Greek speaking Christians. And what did the Greek speaking Christians call themselves? ROMANOI. And what are Romans? Europeans. And had the Catholic and Orthodox faiths been divergent for a thousand years at this time we are discussing? No... To acknowledge Russia is European is not to discount that there are unique and local aspects of being Russian. Let us again point out the Portugese (and Spaniards), seafaring Catholic crusaders, hardened by 500 years of war with the south, an experience the likes of Germany or Scotland or Denmark were spared from. Russia of course has its 500 years of war with the east. They are at the edges, someone has to be
>Poland and Hungary are geographically inter-twined with Germany ina way Russia isn't.
Russia, when it was larger, used to have a substantial Baltic German population. Today it still has a chunk of Prussia as you are probably aware, taken as a prize in WW2 but kept directly under the Russian SSR rather than annexed to Poland or the Baltic republics
>Denying that Russia is of the steppe would be very foolish.
Russians are not steppe nomads. They were subjugated by them, and while jo doubt influenced by them, they ultimately turned the tables on them and extended their Europe-derived culture, language, and religion eastward.
>French Idochina was not ran by the indochinese as part of a wider Federal French Imperial aparatus.
No, the French did not succeed at rebranding and reorganizing their colonial empire. The Soviets did succeed at remodeling the Russian empire, for quite a while, but we are watching the ongoing fallout in real-time!
>the union which was artifically keeping all these countries together would not hold any more.
Well the same questions can be asked of a Russian federation. Chechnya had to be leveled, was it three times, before it agreed to stop trying to leave? Made an example of to the rest of the provinces, as it were.

[Anonymous No.23418610]

>>23417839
>Only does so because of that empire you keep asking it to throw away so that it can be a periphery of "Europe".
Russia keeping its empire at all is a difficult path. A lot of empty space, a declining population, and a billion Chinese to the south. The real question is whether Europe or China will acquire this preserve, whether by investment or otherwise. Politically it could remain "Russia" but the underlying is going to change. The worst case scenario is outright territorial loss. But otherwise, if we do see some return to great power politics, there are obvious Western concessions to China to make in the Pacific which would undoubtedly be part of any settlement preserving the Russian state as a whole should it be joined with Europe. Again, don't think it seems likely China would ignore a European-Russian uninification in exchange for nothing. Lots of deals could be made. The United States is honestly a massive obstacle in this regard since it is considers itself to be legally obligated to arm Taiwan. Europe cannot integrate Russia bilaterally.

[Anonymous No.23418616]

>>23403873
how often should we switch to the next thread, anons?
I am pretty sure we're ready to move on to 2 new essays (going to try with 2 so we have more to discuss in the time the thread is up)
>>23418474
added to my research list

[Anonymous No.23418667]

>>23417988
>Russia as a different cultural entity.
Nobody is saying Russians aren't Russians.
>Would you say Japan is western because western fashion and music is popular, for example?
The Japanese are just weird. The religion is Indian. The aesthetics are medieval Chinese. The constitution is American. There's no viable integration of Asia comparable to the European. The axis is China vs non-China. It's poor geography and bad history. Meanwhile all the things being cited to distance Russia from Europe are just varieties of European culture—being Slavic, being mostly/historically Orthodox, being illiberal, having extra-European territory, etc. In Asia there's China as the sun and the other countries having received Confucius, imperial courts, and (Chinese) Buddhism from them, but also distancing themselves from Chinese orbit. Europe has no China. Or rather, Europe's Chinas, Rome and Byzantium, both died. Russia used to call itself a third Rome of course, an aspiration to be Europe's China?

[Anonymous No.23418693]

>>23417409
>checked, nice art
Been saving a lot of art that appeals to my androcentric, bronze age, master morality, male gaze lately

[Anonymous No.23418781]

>>23418520
>Greek speaking Christians.
Middle eastern ones, yes. Syria and North Africa were Majority Christian (IE, had christian countrysides) before any part of Europe. Except maybe Greece.
>Russia, when it was larger, used to have a substantial Baltic German population.
It also had Volga Germans, the first type was mostly a strata of crusader nobility ruling over a baltic base which the Russian emperors used to great effect in a project to undermine the local nobilityl.
The latter were invited by Catherine the great and succesors to colonize the Volga-Don area, along with mennonite communities, but they are also germans.
>Today it still has a chunk of Prussia as you are probably aware
Which they retain from WW2 and which was cleaned of ethnic Germans. It's also a very strategic site regardin gthe baltic.
>Russians are not steppe nomads. They were subjugated by them, and while jo doubt influenced by them, they ultimately turned the tables on them and extended their Europe-derived culture, language, and religion eastward.
A great deal of this can be said about the westerners, too. It's neither. But I do believe eastern europeans at their root take a lot more from the Eurasian steppes/the Middle east than they do from Western europe and influences.
>The Soviets did succeed at remodeling the Russian empire,
No. It was another thing, built from the ground up. Anachronistically called an empire.
> for quite a while, but we are watching the ongoing fallout in real-time!
Two more weeks.
>Well the same questions can be asked of a Russian federation.
Rather long, all things considered.
> Chechnya had to be leveled, was it three times, before it agreed to stop trying to leave?
Actually, Chechnya was left to its own devices after Russia lost the first one, it was only after they startes sponsoring terrorists in other republics that the second war came.
>Made an example of to the rest of the provinces, as it were.
I'm sure Tanu Tuva circa 2002 was clamoring to become Mongolia but worse.
Russia is not going to fall apart. It's too ethnically congruent for that.
>>23418610
>Russia keeping its empire at all is a difficult path.
I disagree.
> A lot of empty space
Frozen space.
>a declining population,
Like all countries around them except Kazakhstan and Mongolia.
> and a billion Chinese to the south
Not looking like it will lead to anything. You sound like a very anachronistic Lothrop Stoddard type, speaking about the yellow peril, no yellow tide is going to flow into Siberia.
>The real question is whether Europe or China will acquire this preserve, whether by investment or otherwise.
Europe seems rather staunch in its refusal, in the real world.

[Anonymous No.23418841]

>>23418781
>You sound like a very anachronistic Lothrop Stoddard
All he did was predict a future he didn't like, if you deduct him being a racist he was right about basically everything. Europe's colonial empires are gone. I think you're missing the point so I will elaborate: Russia's hold on North Asia is a sick man's; this vast territory which is full of resources, and by 2050, lots of good arable land thanks to our warming climate, is going to have to be developed by someone. Russia will not even have the manpower to work this land, let alone oversee people working it, deploy the latest technologies there, etc. So who is going to reap the dividend? Who is going to own the development of Russia in the latter 21st century? Is it going to go to partners from the European Union, or to China? The Gulf? Some other consortium? Whose food and fuel supply is this going to be? The current crisis in Ukraine is not going to last forever, and less immediate but more stragetic challenges will have to be solved.

[Anonymous No.23418972]

>>23418282
>First thing is to catapult history away.
This is a neutered fantasy. You are history, without it there's nothing left except that lifeless whisper in the empty map. Thanks to some knowledge about biological, geological and cultural history I look around and see clear causal relationships which I can influence with measurable results. Without understanding of history I would be powerless.
>triggered by the word God
braindead.

[Anonymous No.23419212]

What do you guys mean by world-Europe?

[Anonymous No.23419238]

They are talking about how to cook dogs in /elg/

[Anonymous No.23419276]

>>23419212
it only works as an adjective, not a proper noun
'world-European' is used to signify an approach (to history, philosophy, literature) that has Europe at the center and the rest of the world at the periphery, because Europe is necessarily embedded within the cultural and historical context of the rest of the world
but as we establish the necessary context, we move from the broader world toward the center, and the information density increases
the book in the history assignment "The Making of the Middle Sea" is a perfect example, as it starts out 1.8 million years ago, covers plate tectonics and fauna and flora of not just the Mediterranean but North Africa and the Levant, and traces early hominin migrations from sub-Saharan Africa toward the southern shores of the Mediterranean
it doesn't spend endless chapters there, but it doesn't also dive directly into the "center" and offer the relevant context as offhand comments
as another example, Hobsbawm's "Age of Revolution" does the same thing by briefly dipping into different parts of the world to explore the effects of what is happening in Europe on them, but mostly spends his time in Europe
that is the correct approach to perceiving the totality of European culture, and it is mirrored in the way one should learn about his own personal history (the history of his people) - you are embedded within your people as they are embedded within Europe, and Europe is embedded within the world

[Anonymous No.23419293]

>>23419212
>>23419276
this permits the adaptation of the term to other regions, like "world-American", because the analyses and relevant information are going to vary depending on the center
it also makes it easier to talk about a cultural center (or empire) without falling into a self-referential trap, where understanding of the rest of the world is gained through the prism of the center, rather than through the prism of the world of the center

[Anonymous No.23419297]

>>23419212
>>23419276
this permits the adaptation of the term to other regions, like "world-American", because the analyses and relevant information are going to vary depending on the center
it also makes it easier to talk about a cultural center (or empire) without falling into a self-referential trap, where understanding of the rest of the world is gained through the prism of the center, rather than understanding the center through the prism of the world

[Anonymous No.23419656]

good night, anons
I have some work tomorrow, but I'll make the next thread in the evening with two new essays

[Anonymous No.23421107]

>>23419276
>>23419297
huh, that makes sense actually

[Anonymous No.23421721]

>>23418693
>buzzwords
I hope you're memeing

[Anonymous No.23422238]

>>23421721
It just encapsulates its essence, how would you describe it without these words?

[Anonymous No.23422305]

>>23422238
People who speak like machines need to be taken out back

[Anonymous No.23422331]

>>23422305
That's what i thought, faggot

[Anonymous No.23422392]

>>23421721
he isnt

[Anonymous No.23422396]

>>23422238
just read more.

[/clg/ !JiSI0/SPgs No.23422438]

/clg/ OP here.
Please help. That is all.

[Anonymous No.23422470]

>>23422438
huh?

[Anonymous No.23422479]

>>23422470
it doesn't matter if it's the real one, I went ahead and gave him my patchwork solution for establishing a thread "lineage", which I use as well
I'll try to come up with something better down the line

[Anonymous No.23422483]

>>23422479
"him" being the real /clg/ OP, sorry

[Anonymous No.23422500]

>>23403873
>>23422479
I will not be making the next general until this one archives or the /clg/ issues are resolved so that I don't shit up the board with *another* general
>>23421107
I'm glad it does, I haven't gotten to the point of formally defining it in my essay, so it was a scattered answer

[Anonymous No.23422623]

>>23422396
I'm well read enoguh. Embrace novelty of thought, boomer