/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23369365]

Are you still a Christian if ignore the miracles, just abide the teachings of Jesus, and ignore all the other bullshit in the Bible?

[Anonymous No.23369410]

>>23369365
depends on how you define the word Christian, because Christ by definition is the messiah in Jewish prophecy, and part of the criteria to be the messiah is conducting miracles. This isn't even getting to the part about resurrection, or the end of days, if they just say they like Jesus' teachings because It Just Works it's not really giving it any further thought for why it works, let alone giving it the credit that it's due. basically saying they are Buddhist without reading any of the core text or understanding of it, just a religious larper really

so yeah, no, but doesn't stop people from still saying they're Christian or have Christian values or are "Culturally Christian"

[Anonymous No.23369427]

>>23369410
OP pic is Jefferson, not Dawkins.

[Anonymous No.23369444]

>>23369427
and?

Jefferson was a Deist, not a Christian. not sure what the OP was insinuating if i misunderstood his question

[Anonymous No.23369461]

If you don't believe that Rabbi Yeshua bar Yosef was the Jewish Messiah and fulfilled the prophesies of the Jewish holy texts, then was crucified by the evil antisemitic nazi Romans, was dead for three days, and then rose from the dead and now waits until The Time Is Right to end the world, you are by definition not a Christian.

[Anonymous No.23369463]

If Jesus was not resurrected then why be a Christian? What's the point? You can find ethics in any other book

[Anonymous No.23369543]

>>23369463
It's highly transferable to progeny

[Anonymous No.23370068]

>>23369365
Is being called "Christian" really that important to you? Can't you just follow Jesus's morals and call it a day?

[Anonymous No.23370072]

If you were confronted by a judge you wouldn’t have the same opinions as

[Anonymous No.23370080]

>>23369365
No
/thread

[Anonymous No.23370204]

I think we care too much about words and labels, I like to look at what I would expect to happen in terms of concrete experiences and lower level concepts.
If you follow Jesus' teachings, you will live a life that many people would consider moral, most people will like you etc.
On the other hand you won't have that force behind your views that other Christians have. It will basically just be a form of relativism, ultimately it's just your personal choice, there is no foundation on an omnipotent, omniscient being.
You will also not have other benefits of the supernatural, you can't expect to be rewarded with heaven for instance.
My own morals are 99% Christian but I don't call myself a Christian because I see the supernatural elements of Christianity as essential but if someone sees me as a Christian that's fine too.

[Anonymous No.23370299]

No and that’s a good thing

[Anonymous No.23370325]

Mt 5:20 "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

The answer is no.

[Anonymous No.23370337]

The Jefferson Bible is one of the most transparent examples of how deeply secular Westerners envy Christianity. All modern ideas are downstream of Christianity, denying this is the saddest cope imaginable. At best a Westerner can only pervert Christian thought, nothing more.

[Anonymous No.23370345]

>>23369365
teachings of jesus, like what?
>dont hurt kids
woww so unique and profound

[Anonymous No.23370358]

>>23370345
>woww so unique and profound
it actually was incredibly profound for its time, we are just spoiled and take it for granted. at one point in history child sacrifice was a thing, slavery was the norm (and it still is in some non-Christian parts of the world). if you pluck a random secularist or athiest off the street in the western world, dissect their moral and ethical framework, i imagine it would eerie resemble a Christian one even though they might dismiss it as "common sense"

[Anonymous No.23370379]

>>23369365
Be very careful how you speak. Do you not know by whom the miracles come? If you think miracles are nonsense, you have no faith. Isn't that obvious?

[Anonymous No.23370389]

>>23370337
You're a liar and nothing more.

[Anonymous No.23370395]

>>23370358
Wrong, try reading history and not apologetics

[Anonymous No.23370425]

>>23370395
tell me more

[Anonymous No.23370486]

>>23370425
He can't.

[Anonymous No.23370818]

>>23370325
How do you know righteousness = piety in this case?

[Anonymous No.23370823]

>>23369365
As soon as you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God you're a Christian

[Anonymous No.23370838]

>>23370337
That's a huge cope.

[Anonymous No.23370877]

>>23370823
So, you can never read the Bible and not follow any of Jesus's teachings, but still be more of a Christian than someone you did just because you believe Jesus of Nazareth was a demigod?

Seems like the title "Christian" doesn't amount to much by itself.

[Anonymous No.23370918]

>>23370877
Posts like these are exactly why I say I can tell you people don't read the Bible.

Did not Christ tell the murder next to Him on Calvalry, "This day you will be with me in Paradise."? And yet, one and the same Christ warned that many would speak to Him of the works they'd done in His name and He would say, "Depart from Me, ye workers of iniquity, I never knew you." Likewise, the parable of the 10 virgins, five of whom miss the Feast of the Bridegroom, because they did not keep oil in their lamps (and for those who have learned the Scriptures, you know what the Oil is). Additionally, did He not warn the Churches in Revelation with the removal of their lampstands? Did not the Apostle Paul write to the Corinthian Church that any work done outside of love was meaningless [paraphrase mine]? I can't say who will be saved or won't be, but there is Scriptural evidence that a man may be saved, even on the verge of death, by genuine confession of faith in Christ, and that a man who has professed Christ, but practices wickedness will be cut off.

We take solace in knowing that "the Lord knows who are His," and they have been His from before the foundation of the world.

[Anonymous No.23371413]

>>23369461
>crucified by evil antisemitic nazi Romans

Mathew 27:20-26

[Anonymous No.23371489]

>>23369365
If you are a Christian and don't believe in ressurection, there's no point to it.

[Anonymous No.23371492]

>>23369365
Are you baptized?

[Anonymous No.23371520]

Why do people ignore these two verses?
>Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

>Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

[Anonymous No.23371548]

I recently have been on a huge Rousseau kick and that genius of a man wrote a short poem called "The Levite of Ephraim" which is based off the story of the Levite in Judges but fleshed out a bit more, obviously a hugely clever idea and it was written well enough but holy shit the story drives me nuts. So much of the old testament I find to be vile, and this idea that the old and the new are co-equal has done a lot to make me struggle with faith
How do you guys reconcile these two incredibly different books? The morality and tone is entirely different between one or the other to such an extent I can find no commonality of thought or soul.

[Anonymous No.23371594]

>>23371548
>How do you guys reconcile these two incredibly different books? The morality and tone is entirely different between one or the other to such an extent I can find no commonality of thought or soul.
Because the Old Testament is more an anthology series of the history and religious traditions of the Israelites. This was first recorded in the late Bronze Age in the near east. Morality and mindset was so far removed from our perceptions of morality that we think of it as barbarism. Also the god they followed started off as 2 Canaanite gods welded together (El and Yawah). The first recorded instance of worship of yaweh was by raiders coming from the Sinai by Egypt.
The New Testament is a much tighter narrative around Jesus and co. about their travels and ministry and was set in a more understandable late imperial period of Rome
Treat the Old Testament more like the Illiad, as a mythologized history and things will make more sense

[Anonymous No.23371600]

>>23371594
Wasn't it early imperial period though?

[Anonymous No.23371606]

>>23371594
Ok but with those strong differences did Jesus ever speak about the co-equality of the books? See to me Christianity should have said the new covenant replaces the old, but when I've been brought up being told both works have absolute authority despite being so different it creates a lot of confusion for me. I do get what you're saying, I'm not trying to ignore it, but God and His Word are timeless, the changing morals of society shouldn't matter, when one book was written shouldn't matter, the fact that it does if anything gives credibility to the idea that The Bible, or at least parts of it, aren't the inspired Word but rather a product of men who's morality fluctuates. A timeless Creator's morality shouldn't, at least I wouldn't think so, and if it did then we need to rewrite the ten commandments because humanity's morality has shifted to render those things acceptable in many cases

[Anonymous No.23371627]

>>23371606
>Jesus ever speak about the co-equality of the books?
He basically said that all the Old Testament laws about morality still apply as long as they don’t contradict his teachings. Jesus routinely referred to Moses as a prophet and righteous figure. Keeping the Shabbat holy, the Passover seter, and all the laws protecting the poor and the community still are to be followed but being forgiving instead of stoning an adulterous woman and not needing animal sacrifices are how you’re supposed to conduct yourself.
The Old Testament is a foundation for his ministry and relevant historical context for what his audience would have understood. It’s more pulling out the wobbling and rotting studs of a house and fixing it up than building a new one from scratch

[Anonymous No.23371642]

>>23371627
Ok that's a fair way to put it I think. Still makes me question why forgiveness would have been a strong part of Jesus's ministry but not present enough in the old testament, it's not like God changed his mind on it. But at least your point of view allows the old testament to retain some importance and value

[Anonymous No.23371652]

>>23371594
>Treat the Old Testament more like the Illiad, as a mythologized history and things will make more sense
There are people who don't do this? How can you read the Old Testament and take at 100% face value? Yes, some of the events in it are factual, as later archeological and anthropological evidence has shown, but it's still like reading Greek myths and thinking that half of the ancient Hellenic kings, queens, and heroes were literally the kids and grandkids of gods.

[Anonymous No.23371655]

>>23371652
One is said to be an epic fable, the other is said to be The Inspired Word of God and infallible, so yes, plenty will read the latter factually

[Anonymous No.23371662]

> believe in an omnipotent all-powerful Creator God
> believe that He incarnated on earth as a man
> that man who was an omnipotent all-powerful Creator God couldn’t have performed miracles because…

[Anonymous No.23371667]

>>23370877
> you’re not a Christian if you don’t le read because the religion is about reading or something

[Anonymous No.23371672]

>>23370337
Agree. It reeks of someone who desperately wants to believe and even intuitively understands that belief is logical but is so spooked by enlightenment and onward bullshit that they just won’t let themselves believe.

[Anonymous No.23371677]

>>23369365
No, a deist, and that's the most American thing aside form communal living, apple pie and baseball.

[Anonymous No.23371707]

>>23371677
Paine and his Common Sense was ridiculed by John Adams and most of the other founders. Be serious.

[Anonymous No.23371726]

>>23371667
Religion is for retarded drones who confuse their love of their sect's aesthetics and rituals for belief. The true believers covet gnosis because we know that's where belief truly begins. If you call yourself a Christian but you haven't read the New Testament and tempered your mind with the wisdom of Christ and his Apostles, you're just a spook-worshipping larper. Sorry.

[Anonymous No.23371737]

>>23371726
Let me guess, you reject St. Paul

[Anonymous No.23371768]

>>23371726
1: You're not sorry.
2. You're not intelligent.
3. You're not even original.

[Anonymous No.23371775]

>>23369365
if your guy can't do magic, why follow him? it's not like he said anything particularly groundbreaking or unique ethically.
>>23371677
believing the teachings of jesus has nothing to do with deism. in fact to be a deist you must believe the opposite to OPs proposition: that the supernatural creator is real (and performed the miracle of creation) but deny the teachings of religion (including those of jesus christ).

[Anonymous No.23371807]

>>23371707
>John Adams
>Aliens and Seditions Act
Paine was a better man than Adams. Be serious.

[Anonymous No.23371816]

>>23371807
>My vision of a true American is best identified with a dissident thinker propped up by modern intelligentsia.
Be serious.

[Anonymous No.23371840]

>>23371807
Lol, no.

[Anonymous No.23371857]

>>23371816
Do you even know what the Aliens and Seditions Act was?

[Anonymous No.23371878]

>>23369365
thats just atheism with extra steps

[Anonymous No.23371903]

>>23371878
No, it's firmly agnostic, more nature worship and as adaptable as science. The Enlightenment's cope at that stage, if you prefer, and all the thinking man who needs a ghostly hint of mysticism in his life can still have.
Without turning to the original Christianity of what we now call Gnosticism.

[Anonymous No.23371910]

>>23371903
I would sooner be a Spinozist than a secular or anti-magical Christian, whose only source for his beliefs is a document he doesn't believe in.

[Anonymous No.23371996]

>>23371910
>Spinozist
Well that's a type of Deist. Go right ahead.

[Anonymous No.23372008]

Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus

[Anonymous No.23372050]

>>23372008
The verses which this saying originates from literally weren't part of the original manuscript and were added later. It's basically Apocrypha. Furthermore, if OP doesn't believe in the miracles, anything that was said or took place after Jesus's resurrection would fall under "bullshit" anyway.

[Anonymous No.23372471]

>>23371857
Yes, you're talking to the guy that got a 5 on his APUSH Exam (The dbq was on slavery so it was easy to manipulate emotions).

[⽕ I V S E I ⽕ !!GgBWHLRiayD No.23373073]

>>23369365


More like a "Christer".


Ultimately, it does not work like that, anyway.

[Anonymous No.23373086]

By teachings you mean the metaphysics and theology and eschatology and soteriology?

[Anonymous No.23373092]

>I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to

-CS Lewis

[Anonymous No.23373096]

>>23369461
>then was crucified by the evil antisemitic nazi Romans
the Bible teaches that Jesus was crucified by the Jews, not the Romans.

[Anonymous No.23373098]

>>23371413
Better yet 2 Thessalonians 2:14-15

[Anonymous No.23373102]

>>23371548
>How do you guys reconcile these two incredibly different books?
People very commonly assert this and many have taken it as conventional wisdom because of the common assertion, but it really just isn't true.

[Anonymous No.23373106]

>>23370337
By Westerners, you mean one very specific individual in the early formation of New World culture.

[Anonymous No.23373115]

>>23370877
There's a series of steps in the Christian life. Justification is one of them, and Scripture clearly tells us that justification is neither earned or worked for, but given freely by God in grace.

[Anonymous No.23373125]

>>23372008
I was discussing this with C*tholics on the board, and this doctrine is meaningless. The Catechism literally teaches that atheists who do good works go to heaven.

[Anonymous No.23373136]

>>23373125
>The Catechism literally teaches that atheists who do good works go to heaven.

source?