Wagner on Dante

[Anonymous No.23290701]

>It seems to me that Dante, especially in the "Paradise," has not succeeded in [communicating the Christian insight of "the perfect negation of the 'will of life'"]; and in his explanation of the Divine natures he appears, to me at least, frequently like a childish Jesuit.

[Anonymous No.23290725]

>>23290701
>Jesuit bashing
Alright, retard detected.

[Anonymous No.23292245]

>>23290701
Very interesting.

[Anonymous No.23292292]

>>23290725
Posting more:

>In so far as Dante's great poem was a product of his time, to us it seems almost repulsive; but it was simply through the realism wherewith it painted the superstitious fancies of the Middle Ages, that it roused the notice of the contemporary world. Emancipated from the fancies of that world, and yet attracted by the matchless power of their portrayal, we feel a wellnigh painful wrench at having to overcome it before the lofty spirit of the poet can freely act upon us as a world-judge of the purest ideality,—an effect as to which it is most uncertain that even posterity has always rightly grasped it. Wherefore Dante appears to us a giant condemned by the influences of his time to awe-compelling solitude.

>Perhaps the poetic power bestowed on Dante was the greatest e'er within the reach of mortal; yet in his stupendous poem it is only where he can hold the visionary world aloof from dogma, that his true creative force is shewn, whereas he always handles the dogmatic concepts according to the Church's principle of literal credence; and thus these latter never leave that lowering artificiality to which we have already alluded, confronting us with horror, nay, absurdity, from the mouth of so great a poet.

>>23290725
He's right.

>With Palestrina’s music religion had vanished from the church, whereas the artificial formalism of Jesuitical practice counter-reformed religion and at the same time music. Thus, for the sensitive observer, the same Jesuitical style of construction of the preceding two centuries obscures the venerable nobility of Rome; thus the glories of Italian painting became soft and sweet; thus, under the same guidance, ‘classical’ French poetry arose in whose stultifying laws we can detect a quite telling analogy with the laws governing the construction of the operatic aria and the sonata. We know that it was the German spirit, so very much feared and hated ‘beyond the mountains’, which, everywhere and including in the area of art, confronted and redeemed this artificially introduced corruption of the spirit of the European peoples.

>As their first and weightiest exercise the Jesuits set the pupils who enter their school the task of imagining with all their might and main the pains of eternal damnation, and expedite it by the most ingenious devices. A Paris workman, on the contrary, after my threatening him with Hell because he had broken his word, replied: "O monsieur, l'enfer est sur la terre." Our great Schopenhauer was of the same opinion, and found our world of life quite strikingly depicted in Dante's "Inferno." In truth a man of insight might deem that our religious teachers would do better to first make plain our world and life with Christian pity to their scholars, and thus awake the youthful heart to love of the redeemer from this world, instead of making—as the Jesuits—the fear of a devil-hangman the fount of all true virtue.

[Anonymous No.23292307]

>>23290725
>If you bash someone that means you are a retard
if it were only that simple.
>>23290701
I haven't read paradise so I cannot comment. Though I would like to hear wagners opinion on Percival since I believe he did an opera about it. I always thought Percivals quest for the Grail treasures to be a very interesting alegory of the Christian journey of the path towards the divine from the mundane. One thats very compelling.

[Anonymous No.23292452]

>>23292307
>I would like to hear wagners opinion on Percival
This is a good article on it https://www.monsalvat.no/levi-strauss.htm

[Anonymous No.23292580]

>>23290701
>Jesuit bashing
Alright, genius detected

[Anonymous No.23292597]

>>23290701
Dante realizes that the expression of self goes through all spiritual dimensions. psychedelics are unnecessary but they will tell of this carrying of character through multiple realities. Dante's personality was beaming. negation is anti-Christian

[Anonymous No.23292601]

>german subhuman cries about catholics
WOW!

[Anonymous No.23292606]

Dante exists in a world where the mystical and the supernatural are very real. Of course his journey through Hell, Purgatory, and Heaven did not actually happen, but in the world he inhabited, there was the faint thought that it COULD have really happened.

There is a persistent rumor, also, that much of the Comedy was inspired by a real mystical experience Dante had, especially a lot of Paradiso.

I personally think Dante is an immensely holy man, and I believe he will be a saint some day. He glorified God in a way no Catholic artist truly had before, or has since.

[Anonymous No.23292617]

>>23290701
Prots can't handle Catholic chads. Wagner was a dwarf btw, hence the short height and big dwarf-like head.

[Anonymous No.23292632]

>>23292292
>In so far as Dante's great poem was a product of his time, to us it seems almost repulsive
lol what a retard. Had to be a German.

[Anonymous No.23292644]

>>23292632
>didn't read beyond the first line

[Anonymous No.23292648]

Recently watched Viscontis "Ludwig", and the seethe between Italians and Germanics is definitely mutual. The movie is a triumph but the portrayal of Wagner was in pretty bad faith. As a German with mixed Prot/Cath ancestry I'm not sure yet on which side I fall.

[࿇ C Œ M G E N V S ࿇ !Ry9RIEstm6 No.23292675]

A GERMAN CRITIQUING POETRY —WORSE: A HERETICAL GERMAN CRITIQUING POETRY, IS ALWAYS HILARITY MATERIAL, LIKE A DOWN'S SYNDROME INDIVIDUAL ATTEMPTING TO SYNDROME UP.

[Anonymous No.23292695]

>>23290725
The Jesuits are one of the few forces of absolutely unalloyed evil to ever plague the Catholic Church. Almost every other group had some theoretical upside, but not the Jesuits. The Jesuits ruined everything up to and including the world.

[Anonymous No.23292805]

>>23292675
Latins can't understand true poetry, they just corrupt and ape it like they did to Greece.

[Anonymous No.23292807]

Dropped. Dante is untouchable.

[Anonymous No.23292809]

>>23292805
And yet The Divine Comedy is superior to any Germanic poem.

[Anonymous No.23292813]

>>23292675
>LIKE A DOWN'S SYNDROME INDIVIDUAL ATTEMPTING TO SYNDROME UP.

lmao

[Anonymous No.23292821]

>>23292675

[Anonymous No.23292822]

>>23292809
A rare example for the Latins, a Medieval florescence, never to be seen again, and nurtured under a German wing. Meanwhile Germany has the Nibelungenlied and Faust, from two widely disparate eras, can rival Dante, and which show Germany's inventive strength never dried up as it did for the Latins.

[Anonymous No.23292831]

>>23292292
I haven't seen a thing Jesuits haven't been accused of yet, they have gone from being Rome's ninja assassins during the Counter-Reformation to apparently spreading crypto-atheism in modern days.

[Anonymous No.23292833]

>>23292822
>from two widely disparate eras,
The Divine Comedy (medieval)
Orlando Furioso (renaissance)
>can rival Dante
They really can't but it's cute that you think so. One is not even a true poem.

[Anonymous No.23292836]

>>23292833
Ariosto is garbage and a perfect example of how Italian poetry declined. They can rival Dante, not in poetic technique but nonetheless as the works of genius. The Nibelungenlied is in some respects superior to Homer.

[Anonymous No.23292837]

>>23292822
>which show Germany's inventive strength never dried up as it did for the Latins.
there is no need to turn this into a contest
talking about the superiority of "german inventiveness" towards the latin also feels weird when the minnesänger based their works on old french/troubadour poetry, although they are obviously excellent and more than simple copies
goethe on the other hand i wouldn't even consider the best in any area even in german literature, but as an universalgenie he serves well as a type of beacon to the germans

[Anonymous No.23292838]

>>23292292
>>23292632
>>23292644
Wagner was limited in his ability to think. His great talent was expressing his lusts.

He had power but was wasteful with it. It was he who after all, along with Schopenhauer, inspired the Fuhrer to be so reckless.

Together they negated the will to live of the entire German nation and culture.

[Anonymous No.23292841]

>>23292836
>Ariosto is garbage and a perfect example of how Italian poetry declined.
Ariosto is great. What's the issue?
>They can rival Dante,
No, they can't. You're comparing a closet play based on folklore to fucking Dante. I can't take you seriously when you say delusional shit like this.
>They can rival Dante, not in poetic technique but nonetheless as the works of genius.
We were talking about poems, not "works of genius".

[Anonymous No.23292847]

>>23292841
>Ariosto is great. What's the issue?
Ariosto merely plays with poetry like any modern poet, he's 'very good' like any good poet. He is not a divinely inspired genius like Dante, nor does he resemble in any part that golden age of Italian poetry. He is modern Italian poetry.

>refers to faust as 'a fucking closet play' as if that's a devaluation
Yeah, you don't know anything about literature. Do you think a particular poetic form is any less capable of being used by genius?

>We were talking about poems, not "works of genius".
Do you think poetry only amounts to technique?

[Anonymous No.23292849]

>>23292847
>divinely inspired genius like Dante
Please.

Dante was a genius in terms of technique and in terms of passion for revenge but there was nothing divine about him.

[Anonymous No.23292850]

>>23292847
If you think plays are epic poetry, then the discussion is over. You might as well think men can be women, too. None of these compares to Dante but Germs can keep trying or seething at actual greatness like Wagner the Dwarf does here.

[Anonymous No.23292852]

>>23292836
>The Nibelungenlied is in some respects superior to Homer.
How so?

[Anonymous No.23292854]

>>23292849
>there was nothing divine about him.
There was. Or at least the closet a poet has been to being touched by the divine.

[Anonymous No.23292855]

>>23292850
Dante and Wagner were similar in a lot of ways. Restraint is what differentiates them; not genius. Neither was honest.

[Anonymous No.23292861]

>>23292854
He was scapegoated and lost everything. His poetry is a cope.

Wagner wanted greatness for Germany but he was blind to the possibilities. He overplayed his hand.

[Anonymous No.23292862]

>>23292861
All poetry is a cope. That's besides the point.

[Anonymous No.23292869]

>>23290701
German Protestants, not even once.
Has anyone noticed how since Luther, German Protestants have been a major source of problems? Should be focusing on engineering and being depressed and let religion and philosophy to the Latins.

[Anonymous No.23292870]

>>23292862
Not Wagner's. He inspired the Fuhrer and thus changed he world.

The ring was almost the actual ring. But it wasn't, he was am egomaniac and cared nothing for Germany.

[Anonymous No.23292874]

>>23292870
Wagner like Schopenhauer wanted to destroy Germany. They were resentful and never overcame it. Nietzsche tried to say it.

[Anonymous No.23292877]

>>23292850
>If you think plays are epic poetry
????? This was stated where? Do you have schizophrenia? Shakespeare wrote plays, yet he's an undisputed equal to Dante. Dramatic poetry is still poetry, it is inhibited in no way from being poetry, and plays are just as much the work of a poet as epics.

[Anonymous No.23292880]

>>23292877
Plays are not even literature, let alone poetry.

[Anonymous No.23292883]

>>23292877
>>23292880
Dante and Shakespeare are shame based - that;s why they are swords for Christianity. Wagner is guilt based and therefore purely destructive.

The essence of the men is what's important. Not the form.

[Anonymous No.23292905]

>>23292822
>nurtured under a German wing.
Fuck off, snownigger.

[Anonymous No.23292928]

>>23292883
>shame based
They had honor.

>>23292905
Wagner had no honor. He was serial adulterer.

That's why he's the beginning of modernism. He inspired everyone to push the limits of what is possible if you forgo all honor.

The atomic bomb was created. Oppenheimer was a lot like Wagner too. When you break all the rules you're free to explore all human knowledge.

[Anonymous No.23292946]

>>23292928
>That's why he's the beginning of modernism
And postmodernism's goal was to destroy the freedom of modernism and put the shackles back on.

All we're allowed to do today is make money.

[Anonymous No.23292958]

>>23292838
>this is lustful music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPPk5Guqo2g

[Anonymous No.23292963]

greatest ass-talking thread on lit in recent history

[Anonymous No.23293024]

>>23292292
>Our great Schopenhauer was of the same opinion, and found our world of life quite strikingly depicted in Dante's "Inferno." In truth a man of insight might deem that our religious teachers would do better to first make plain our world and life with Christian pity to their scholars, and thus awake the youthful heart to love of the redeemer from this world, instead of making—as the Jesuits—the fear of a devil-hangman the fount of all true virtue.
This is is exactly what Palingenius did with Zodiacus Vitae and Palingenius ended up being the most famous and influential of the many Dante imitators. The Vitae provides the main cosmology for all of Shakespeare’s moral tension

[Anonymous No.23293273]

>>23292958
There's nothing wrong with lustful music as long as you don't fall to it.

[Anonymous No.23293348]

>>23293273
That's what Wagner said.

>Wagner extended his hand in a friendly manner, and asked us if we had already heard any performances. He appeared to notice that I was excited, for he suddenly laid his hand on my chest and cried, 'How your heart is beating!' When, in my surprise and embarrassment, I made no reply, he added in broad Saxon: 'Now, you see, for such a young man as you, the Flower-Maidens are the principal things in "Parsifal," but don't lose your heart to them.' Then he shook hands with us once more. We had just reached the door as he shouted after us, 'But don't lose your heart.' I turned round, and there stood Wagner alone in the middle of the room, smilingly waving his hand to me.
- Reminiscences of Felix Weingartner

[Anonymous No.23293354]

>>23292648
>As a German with mixed Prot/Cath ancestry
Isn't that the case for all Germans now?

[Anonymous No.23293364]

>>23290701
I love Wagner: as a mythopoetic poet, he is beyond compare. However, when he speaks on theology, he is often a little confused. Not that I'm an expert on theology or anything, but at least I don't think I am. His own music drama's, Parsifal chief among them, prove he was relatively confused about certain aspects of Christian doctrine and theology. Brilliant man though. No music dramatist has come close to surpassing him before or since his time. It is doubtful anyone ever will.

[Anonymous No.23293374]

>>23290701
>the Christian insight of "the perfect negation of the 'will of life'"
Dis retarded nigga thinks schopenhauerianism has anything to do with authentic christianity. Lol. Lmao even

[Anonymous No.23293448]

>>23293364
His theology is highly unorthodox but it makes perfect sense. Before writing Parsifal he prepared himself by rereading the NT, studying Christian theology and talking with a Catholic priest regularly. He was trying to purify Christianity from the imperfect state that Schiller recognised it to be in, and separate it from the OT. Emotionally and mythologically it is Christian, but theologically it's connecting Christian concepts with the East. Precisely because it is such a unique transmutation of the Christian religion Spengler predicted that it would 'disclose to us in advance the shape that our spirituality will assume in our next (in point of creative power our last) centuries'.

[Anonymous No.23293469]

>>23293448
>unorthodox
>makes sense
Contradictory premises. Are you a Hegelian or dialetheist or something?

[Anonymous No.23293478]

>>23293448
>separate it from the OT
This is one of his major mistakes. Christianity cannot be serperated from the OT. The NT and revelation of Christ in the world is the completion of the OT. I guess I would need to understand in what way he was trying to seperate the two.

In theory, the construction of Parsifal is practical. It's how it is executed in the drama which is where the confusion starts. I think it was too ambitious. Wagner excells at mythopoetics. Christian allegories, not so much (That is more Verdi's wheelhouse).

[Anonymous No.23293495]

>>23293478
I guess I don't really see Christianity as that different from any other mythopoetic subject. And Wagner didn't either. Parsifal is more myth than allegory.

>Comparison between Alberich and Klingsor; R. tells me that he once felt every sympathy for Alberich, who represents the ugly person’s longing for beauty. In Alberich the naivete of the non-Christian world, in Klingsor the peculiar quality which Christianity brought into the world; just like the Jesuits, he does not believe in goodness, and this is his strength but at the same time his downfall, for through the ages one good man does occasionally emerge!

[Anonymous No.23293502]

>>23293495
>I guess I don't really see Christianity as that different from any other mythopoetic subject

Mythopoetics are fictional stories that reveal factual truths about Human nature, where as religion, to the people who profess belief in it, are factual histories that bear revelations from God to humans, that impacted and transformed the nature of Humanity. They're very similar, but there is a sharp distinction between them, and Wagner certainly understood this distinction.

[Anonymous No.23293550]

>>23293502
One could say the Greek myths were believed to be literally true, and followed via religious rites all the same. But it didn't stop Aeschylus or Sophocles from using them as a mythopoetic subject, and Wagner's subject being the medieval Grail myth rather than the events in the Bible or real Christian history gives him more leeway. Wagner aimed to capture what he saw as the essence of the Christian religion and it seems a success.

[Anonymous No.23293886]

>>23293550
I think him very rare,
To whome nothing disyrde is lackt,
nor doleful chaunce doth light,
In al his time and yeares, who liues
and dyes in happy plight,
This is the very Phaenix byrd
whome dust the Grecian fayne,
The Grecian of a foolish head,
and of a frantick brayne:
Who thought of one might yssue come,
and bones consumde that be
To ashes colde, a byrd to breede
which neuer men could see.
But so that she may wonders sing
this nation not esteames
The truth to say, a nation whole
addict to toyes and dreames.

[Anonymous No.23293910]

>>23293348
I didn't know that. I guess Wagner and I are kin.

Parsifal definitely taught me a lot. I've seen Klingsor in real life but as a woman.

[Anonymous No.23293965]

>>23293550
>>23293886
That's the Googe translation of Palingenius. The imitators of Dante were already trying to counter this, and it's interesting that Wagner makes the connection of Dante to Jesuit order directly since Ignatius Loyola certainly read the Vitae in Latin while he was sick at the hospital. Shakespeare's "Within be fed, without be rich no more" and his descriptions of the house that looks abandoned from the outside but has the cozy interior is the same as Ignatius making the belt with the nails that would dig into his stomach, they were both inspired by these Dante imitators blamed for causing the reformation. How is Wagner actually distinct from these same ideas and trends, the only thing different would be imagining that new loud power of the orchestra added on to all those poetic stirrings, actually imaging that sound as something new. What could it mean... What does it represent? Wagner is never rhetorical enough to say, he was too innocent to be clever

[Anonymous No.23293982]

>>23293965
the new loud power of the concert

[Anonymous No.23293987]

>>23293448
>>23293469
>>23293478
>>23293495
Hitler took after Schopenhauer and Wagner's life denying essence. His goal was always to commit suicide and take as many people with him. Freud described it as the Thanatos effect or death drive. In effect Christian slave morality but with influence of Buddhist slave morality and Asian defeatism and anti-life urge. Don't forget that the highest suicide rates are in East Asia.

The one that would claim the master morality that Nietzsche tried to describe ended up being Stalin.