/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23237856]

Why were Greek heroes so unheroic?

Take Hercules for instance:
>Killed his wife and kids
>wrathful
>easily tricked, low IQ
>embarassing death

The average capeshit character is a infinitely more inspiring person than any Greek hero. Even the most noble of the Greek heroes were still terrible and would be completely average if not for their superhuman strength or agility. But in terms of their willpower, they were just as weak as a regular man. Even clever ones like Odysseus were retarded

[Anonymous No.23237878]

>>23237856
>Why were Greek heroes so unheroic?
This reminds of something Borges said in some conversation: "Is there a truly epic moment in The Iliad? I don't think so".

[Anonymous No.23237883]

>>23237856
why are troglodytes so unheroic?

take op for instance
>killed his chances in life
>slothful
>cant read real litriture, low iq
>embarrassing life

the average real life gremlin creature is infinitely more inspiring then any troglodytes . even the most notable of troglodytes are still terrible and would be completely average if not for their superhuman lack of bitches. But in terms of their actual ability to make others upset, they were just as weak as a regular man.

[Anonymous No.23237912]

*smashes your skull with club*

[Anonymous No.23237923]

>>23237883
You sound upset. Like someone just insulted Spider-Man, your favorite hero.

[Anonymous No.23237933]

>>23237912
*Dodges your attack*

That is what a real hero would do, like Batman

[Anonymous No.23237939]

>>23237878
To me the basic essence of an epic is that it’s greater than the sum of its parts.

[Anonymous No.23237945]

>>23237856
They are more like archetypes than true characters

[Anonymous No.23237948]

Spengler thought that for the Greeks heroism and tragedy was all bound up in the body. So the story is really about the bodies, and we just don’t easily discern that. But all of the glories in the Greek heroes are accomplishments of the body and all of the tragedies are blows to the body. You don’t consider such things heroic or tragic necessarily. For you, heroism and tragedy is something more psychological, more existential, more historical.

[Anonymous No.23237957]

>>23237948
Interesting. Why did they think this way and is there any proof to this? I would think that there are stories of heroes pushing past their bodily limits to accomplish a goal at the expense of themselves

[Anonymous No.23237964]

>>23237933
was batman taken up to reside with the immortal gods though?

[Anonymous No.23237965]

Mythological heroes aren’t simplistic cardboard characters like capeshit.

[Anonymous No.23237976]

>>23237957
He came to that conclusion as the result of a comparison, mainly between Green and Western culture but also Greek and other cultures like Egyptian and Chinese. It’s not a pushing bodily limits in a Dragonball Z sort of way or something. It’s rather this sort of implicit understanding that life, the whole of life, is contained within the body. The tragedy is the blow to the body. Whereas for us, the understanding of life is something almost disembodied. It’s something that has a trajectory and is historical, it’s a mounting pile of biographical details that build up like a symphony and the tragedy is the ultimate crescendo with folds in all the details of one’s life. Shakespeare’s tragedy wasn’t about the body. It was a tragedy of something more like the intellect or the soul. Even pushing past bodily boundaries implies something like a quest of the spirit more than a quest of the body. So Spengler would say that you don’t understand these heroes as heroic, because you don’t have this understanding of heroic. If you we’re a contemporary of Homer, you’d “get it” but you’re not so you don’t.

[Anonymous No.23237983]

I like the Greek play where Hercules repays the hospitality of his host by going into the underworld and returning his host's dead wife to life from Hades

[Anonymous No.23237987]

>>23237965
They aren't that deep either

[Anonymous No.23237996]

>>23237983
I like the one he meets Aladdin

[Anonymous No.23238000]

>>23237964
He ended up becoming one

[Anonymous No.23238014]

>>23237976
If everything to the Greeks was understood through the body wouldn't the ultimate tragedy be a beautiful Olympian becoming crippled and disfigured? Why is this not the case and rather something like Oedipus Rex which revolves around around a moral failing

[Anonymous No.23238028]

>>23238014
Because it’s a dumb analysis and Spengler was a dipshit

[Anonymous No.23238034]

>>23237933
No, a real hero would survive the hit with some sort of brain damage and embark on a tard-rage revenge quest to kill that guy and his entire family before ascending to godhood as reward.

[Anonymous No.23238040]

>>23237856
The unheroic nature of heroes is a means to invite the listener to conclude that even the greatest amongst men are nothing in comparison to the wanton power of the gods. Often times this is why there is a such complex interplay of recurring themes within these stories based around fate, fortune (as in luck), arete (a demonstration of personal excellence), pathos (an internal suffering toward something greater), and hubris (essentially, denying the gods of their deference). These are then themes amongst the ancients that may, arguably, suggest these as the "fundamental" and inescapable aspects which turn and lubricate the "gears" of life.

[Anonymous No.23238069]

Read Plutarch’s Lives. Greek heroes were known for both feats of great good as well as being examples of what NOT to be. This is the very nature of a *tragic hero*. The tragic means some major flaw or problem that causes a downfall. Similar to Ahab or Heathcliff who cause great destruction due to their wrath. Without this element, the hero ceases to be tragic and is instead comedic. Nobility without some tarnish does not evoke any pathos or sense of higher emotion

[Anonymous No.23238095]

>>23237856
The ancients understood killing women was peak heroics, before the brainwashing

[Anonymous No.23238150]

>>23237878
There are many epic moments in the Iliad. like when Hector broke through the Greek wall with a big rock.

[Anonymous No.23238154]

>>23238095
Total Woman Terror

[Anonymous No.23238159]

>>23237856
Ask picrel

[Anonymous No.23238234]

>>23237856
Because they are organic cultural products, not the result of an individual's conscious didactic effort. That's why they're interesting.

[Anonymous No.23238450]

>>23237987
Yes they are. Myth is timeless reality, occurring as a pattern everywhere at all times.

[Anonymous No.23238634]

>>23237856
at least 1/3rd of my childhood was spent fantasizing about plowing Megara.

[Anonymous No.23238636]

>>23238450
>occurring as a pattern everywhere at all times.
including marvelslop

[Anonymous No.23238643]

>>23237856
When I was younger I saw Heroic from whats, but when u go through tons of lies in life, u learn to see it in whys. U don’t know any whys here… do you?

[Anonymous No.23238690]

>>23237856
maybe, just maybe, the concept of a hero back in the day was different

but yeah, I also don't like most of ancients heroes, or any if so

[Anonymous No.23238700]

>>23237856
Being good makes you to be someone of quality is iron age stuff. Before that it was greatness/lawfulness/achievement/status that made you someone of quality. As weird as it sounds, being a good person is good was not a thing until the iron age. That's why everyone is a dick in the Old Testament.

[Anonymous No.23238716]

>>23237856
>>23237878
Filtered retards. Including Borges.

[Anonymous No.23238980]

>>23237856
>beats you to death with a rusty tire iron in you're path

[Anonymous No.23238995]

>invent the word
>let me tell you what it actually means

[Anonymous No.23238999]

To show you that even people who are deemed nobles or heroes have flaws and are subject to them, le human condition present in every man