(Deep) Ecology

[Anonymous No.23204251]

I just finished Linkola's Can Life Prevail and few weeks ago and am still processing it. I was somewhat familiar with deep ecology going into it, but I wasn't fully prepared for some of Linkola's takes. I have been on this website for over 13 years, so not much shocks me, but parts of this book LITERALLY made my jaw drop. Folks who have read it can probably guess which parts.

The people in my life are too normal to discuss his ideas with (I read my wife some passages and she was horrified), so I thought I'd post a thread here for discussion. Also, there are several charts I've posted here that center around eco-fascism, deep ecology, etc., but I can't find any of them in the wiki. Anybody got some to post?

[Anonymous No.23204252]

>>23204251
*charts I've SEEN posted here

[Anonymous No.23204266]

>>23204251
Here ya go

[Anonymous No.23204271]

Very cool, however this fella not only had the same ideas long before, he also acted and tried them out.

[Anonymous No.23204273]

>>23204266
Thanks, bro. Have you read any of these?

>>23204271
Could you elaborate? Do you just mean exterminating people? Or did Pol Pot have explicitly ecological goals?

[Anonymous No.23204274]

>>23204251
I remember when that book was like the bible, along with unabomber manifesto, on twitter in 2017-2018 with 'pinetree' twitter. that's when I first read it.

I really respected how the book went to the logical conclusion of 'yeah the more humans there are the more consumption'. Also calling out how migrants actually create more pollution than a non migrant on average, not just getting to a new country but traveling back to their home countrie several times a year to visit family. Also going from a lower amount of resurce consumption to a higher one by excisting ina western country.
He has a great interview on youtube, where hes asked how to deal with migrants coming by boat and he says to just drown them all. Of course people would be shocked and disgusted by that so his solution to spare peoples emotions is to just not report it on radio or tv. 'lets close those eyes and ears'.
You can't consume you're way out of enviromental collpase you gotta reduce the demand. And lowering the human population means targetting woman, who can create many children and children themselves, mainly female children before they can grow up and have more children. He'd like the Gaza genocide and would probably wish the Palestinians were better armed to do the same to the Israelis

[Anonymous No.23204277]

>>23204274
Yeah, the part where he said that war will continue to be useless until it starts to target women and children was a standout moment. It's one thing to see /pol/ chuds say "billions must die" and "kill women, behead women, etc." but to read a carefully thought-out, earnest, reasoned argument for these things was somewhat chilling. I couldn't find a logical problem with his argument, but I couldn't shake a feeling of disgust about it.

[Anonymous No.23204283]

>>23204277
yeah that shit made me really aware of the unconcious bias we all have, on the gentic level that it should be men that die on mass only. Because a few men can impregnate lots of woman, but a decrease of the female population limits pop growth.

I remember reading it at an airport, painfully aware of the carbon footprint I had travelling and getting really mad about the deforestation of Finland so some fuck can buy sports cars and crash them and then buy a new one over and over.
But yeah its a real eye opener to read someones intelligent ideas and then they start laying out why the main targets in war should be children.

[Anonymous No.23204285]

>>23204283
His glorification of the 9/11 attackers also floored me; it was so unexpected. I'm still not sure what to make of these arguments, but I do know that reading this stuff felt like I was looking at the world through a completely new lens.

[Anonymous No.23204290]

The essential barbarism and misanthropy of the average finngolian is no surprise to anyone who has spent the requisite time on golden era ylilauta

[Anonymous No.23204294]

>>23204285
man its been so long and I've read some much other terrorist sympathizer ideas since I forgot he talked aobut that. John Micheal Greer, another author whose work I recommand if you want to view the world with a completely new lens said something like this:
>the people in the twin towers were not people, they were priests of our new age, our eras god the almighty dollar
Unless im crossing mental wires and that was also Linkola.
I quite fond of his lifeboat ethics hypothesis as well
>What to do, when a ship carrying a hundred passengers suddenly capsizes and only one lifeboat, with room for only ten people, has been launched?
> When the lifeboat is full, those who hate life will try to load it with more people and sink the lot. Those who love and respect life will take the ship’s axe and sever the extra hands that cling to the sides of the boat.

[Anonymous No.23204307]

>>23204251
lol is that a real cover

[Anonymous No.23204314]

>>23204294
I think that first quote might have been from Linkola, but I'll check out Greer either way.

>>23204307
Sadly, yes.

[Anonymous No.23204327]

>>23204251
>have been on this website for over 13 years, so not much shocks me, but parts of this book LITERALLY made my jaw drop.
Can you give us a hint? I've never even heard of this author.

[Anonymous No.23204350]

>>23204327
Linkola is a finnish deep ecologist, he is the guy thats made the logical framework that Thanos is based on. Of course Linkola is far more intelligent and better thought out than just 'killing half the population'.
He advocates war to focus on killing woman, and children as the main targets to limit human population growth. Among other interesting ideas. Hes the logial end point 'humans are just another species that occurs in nature, and is a 'pest species'

[Anonymous No.23204351]

>>23204327
He's a perkele guy who dropped out of his eco PhD program to bitch about how billions must die so that the birds would feel better. He really should've stuck to his studies, his takes would be much less retarded then.

t. an ecologist

[Anonymous No.23204356]

>>23204350
>Hes the logial end point 'humans are just another species that occurs in nature, and is a 'pest species'
That's the thing - he doesn't consider humans to be just another species that occurs in nature.

Most ecologists ever agree that the best things humans can do for preservation of the biosphere is fuck off and die, but his takes are about as intelligent as buffalo bounties and DDT spraying.

[Anonymous No.23204359]

>grr i hate nigger
So deep.

[Anonymous No.23204369]

>>23204351
>>23204356
>>23204359
And just like that, the IQ of the thread plummets. If you have legitimate criticisms, state them rather than resorting to ad hominem and strawmanning

[Anonymous No.23204410]

>>23204327
It's really not that great. The book is largely him giving anecdotal evidence for why the environment in Finland is getting worse. Then he just says we need to reduce population and have some weird agrarian society again. When it comes to overpopulation and consumption he's nothing that special of an author. People here just like him because he's fine with killing people and wants to genocide cats

[Anonymous No.23204412]

>>23204351
>a perkele guy
what?

t. a Finn

[Anonymous No.23204418]

when it comes to these topics it seems all an author has to do to sound almost revolutionary or something is to say it how it is without sugar coating it; perhaps it's because the whole subject has been terminally associated with herd animalized leftist types such as the Greta Thunberg related crowd or run of the mill environmental "activism" with its safe release valves such as making the life of working class westerners poorer and more centralized while chadjeet keeps burning tires as much as he wants

[Anonymous No.23204429]

Pretty cool author if you are casting about for some intellectual justification for why you want to kill people.

[Anonymous No.23204448]

>>23204359
Go back

[Anonymous No.23204452]

>>23204410
Anecdotal evidence is a gross mischaracterization. He personally conducted surveys of forests all around Europe and references third-party data. When he does reference anecdotes, it’s usually just to illustrate some feature about modern society that no one would deny, like when he recalls seeing a cemetery worker use a big, expensive machine to do a job a wheelbarrow could have accomplished as an illustration of over dependence of technology.

[Anonymous No.23204543]

I read it years ago after somebody posted it in an ecofash thread on 8pol (shortly before Tarrant did his irl effortpost actually).
I really didn't think it was all that shocking at the time, but maybe that's just because that place was full of unironic exterminationists and the like.

[Anonymous No.23204560]

Weeds are my brothers, animals my kin. I see mother nature resist. Part of this resistence, besides weeds and some other organisms, are the invasive species of the world. They brand them invasive species, but invasive species are the salvation. Local biodiversity increases. They morph into adaptive radiations and neonatives.

[Anonymous No.23204566]

>>23204266
>no Ellul
>no Mirror of Production
Disappointing

[Anonymous No.23204763]

>>23204543
Who is Tarrant?

[Anonymous No.23204796]

>>23204274
Sounds like a load of edgy self hating pseud garbage. Excess of human consumption happens because materialism and excess have been ingrained into modern culture to create profit for capitalism. Their are infinite ways to reduce carbon footprint but non of them are profitable so capitalism never allows them to materialise. Plastics are completely unnecessary but companies use plastics in their products because it's the cheapest material available. The carbon footprint of travel could be reduced almost to an unmeasurable level but that would mean riding ourselves of oil and coal as a source of energy which would mean that 0.1 percent of the population would lose an incalculable amount of wealth and they would never let that happen. It's actually a very small percentage of the human polutation that is responsible for the largest carbon footprint but this guys idea of a solution is hurr hurr let's kill millions of people. It's like Thanos in avengers but more retarded apparently.

[Anonymous No.23204833]

>>23204796
Environmental destruction has nothing to do with capitalism. Communists and primitive societies all razed forests drove animals to extinction.

[Anonymous No.23204836]

>>23204277
>>23204274
in other word it's idiotic. For thousands of years men have been competing for women, putting them on pedestal, and pleasing them at all cost. And men are literally happy to do this for free.
Reducing women means women are even more rare, ie even more revered for free.

[Anonymous No.23204868]

>>23204763
Christchurch mosque shootings.

[Anonymous No.23204872]

>>23204833
Okay but I'm talking about climate change here. If your fee fees are hurt because someone cut down a tree then just plant some more lol

[Anonymous No.23204878]

>>23204833
While that may be true, the damage that capitalism and the undustrial revolution has done to the environment has been greater than any other society combined

[Anonymous No.23204898]

>>23204872
You misunderstand, Linkola isn't about climate change, but preservation of nature. Old-growth forests type of thing you know.

[Anonymous No.23204909]

>>23204833
This you?

[Anonymous No.23204942]

>>23204898
Well i haven't read the book, but i think you need to come up with a better argument for saving trees than genociding large percentages of the population if you want anyone to take you seriously lol. And this is coming from a nature loving kind of guy.

[Anonymous No.23204953]

>>23204942
Wouldn't it be simpler to accept that the following generations won't be having a nature to love, if lowering the population isn't the acceptable option? They're both radical options, which is the one you'd be comfortable with?

[Anonymous No.23204962]

>>23204953
>won’t be having a nature to love
Retard, everything is Nature. Nature isn’t ‘dying’ it’s re-adjusting, and us along with it. Our reactionary tendency towards ‘preservation’ is as ludicrous as trying to keep one’s self static too. Nothing is immutable. If anything, fascists ought embrace climate change as what will be the single biggest killer of brown people, poor people, and the generally unfortunate.

[Anonymous No.23204979]

>>23204953
Well first of all, the population globaly seems to be lowering exponentially around the globe by it's own accord (as to why that's another subject of debate). Secondly, there are simpler ways of preserving nature than killing millions of people; such as creating park reservations, planting trees, saving animals from going extinct either through biological manipulation or through laws that protect animals in danger etc. And thirdly even if genociding billions of people was a plausable solution, there isn't a single person on the planet save for a handful of antisocial autists who would agree to that happening so you might as well make an effort to come up with a plan B because plan A us obviously not going to be an option.

[Anonymous No.23204983]

What even is nature? It is just a bunching up of species competing and cooperating just to reproduce and/or survive.

[Anonymous No.23204995]

>>23204962
Context matters. By nature I obviously mean it in the biodiverse fashion, undisturbed by humans. Have you hiked in national parks? If you don't have the /out/ type of ethos, you can disregard Linkola. You however cannot deny the fact that humans destroy ecologies to suit our gain, which in turn makes them unlivable for majority of species. You should embrace this "industrialization" of natural habitat, and accept that lowering and genocide of species is something unavoidable for humans to prosper with growing populations.

[Anonymous No.23205016]

>>23204979
>such as creating park reservations, planting trees, saving animals from going extinct either through biological manipulation or through laws that protect animals in danger etc.
These methods just slow the decay, the root problem remains. As for the population growth reversing, it's a possibility. Very, very hopeful one.

[Anonymous No.23205021]

>>23205016
Anyone who wants to end the human race in order to save the planet and doesn't start with themselves is, in my opinion, a complete an utter hypocrite.

[Anonymous No.23205026]

>>23204995
>undisturbed by humans
Read Marris or Pearce

[Anonymous No.23205040]

>>23205021
I don't think it's about ending it, just keeping it under control. I'll also let you know that I'm playing devil's advocate here. Proper non-sugarcoated environmentalism like this has ultimately no room for acceptance, but their takes are absolutely correct in that there's a split path here.

[Anonymous No.23205046]

>>23204271
Very based man, took academics to the cleaners and made adultery a capital offense.

>>23204273
Not really but I've read some proto works like Civil Disobedience.

[Anonymous No.23205049]

>>23204277
I admit got a little excited when he said that

[Anonymous No.23205056]

>>23204283
>yeah that shit made me really aware of the unconcious bias we all have, on the gentic level that it should be men that die on mass only
Its ingrained in all men to be a useful idiot for females. I've countered this argument in writings of my own.

[Anonymous No.23205140]

>>23204836
It's not idiotic in his view. He would want women to be more rare as he wants the rate of fertility to plummet.

[Anonymous No.23205146]

>>23204796
>>23204878

Your key mistake is thinking that capitalism, the industrial revolution, etc... are the disease and not symptoms. Capitalism did not just magically poof into existence one day to torment humanity. They made it. Because they wanted to consume more.

[Anonymous No.23205156]

>>23205146
literally demons.

[Anonymous No.23205207]

>>23204833
Hell even Nazi Germany promised the people a certain level of consumerism and certainly did want economic growth. Quite simply:
>Everyone wants to consume to at least comfortable leves which, as technology advances, requires more and more resources over time.
>Economic growth, besides increasing the possible welfare of the people, also promotes the power and influence a nation can have.
>Population growth, which is also required for long term economic growth, causes a further increase of resource consumption
All of these mean that basically every ideology will want people to consume, the economy and thus als the population to grow. Any nation that doesn't will quite simply be outcompeted. For example Linkola's agrarian state would be easily overrun by Russia since it doesn't have modern technology, logistics and industrial capability.

[Anonymous No.23205459]

>>23205146
You're right about that in a sense. But the current state of capitalism has become a desease and environmental and societal destruction is the symptom.

[Anonymous No.23205507]

>>23205459
You're too fixated on one thing, like an idealogue.

[Anonymous No.23205702]

>>23205507
Well capitalism is kind of like the "big thing" in modern day society in case you weren't aware. There was a whole cold war going on a while back which it happened to win. So it's less me being "fixated " and more so incapable of ignoring it.

[Anonymous No.23205763]

Counter Currents has good resources for deep ecology. Derrick Jensen was interviewed by them:
https://counter-currents.com/2019/10/ten-questions-for-radical-environmentalist-derrick-jensen-part-i/

The editor of Kaczynski's books, David Srkbina, did an interview as well:
https://counter-currents.com/2023/06/counter-currents-radio-podcast-no-536-david-skrbina-on-ted-kaczynski/

Here's a useful introduction to Pentti Linkola, and some of his writings too:
https://counter-currents.com/2022/12/remembering-pentti-linkola-3/

Savitri Devi:
>Thus, in a world utterly given over to American hedonistic capitalism and Soviet anthropocentric tyranny, she could see nothing to do but: . . .to aid all beautiful minorities attacked by the agents of chaos; to resist, even if that should delay only a few decades the disappearance of the last aristocrats among men, animals, or trees. There is nothing else that one can do, if not, perhaps, to curse in one’s heart, day and night, today’s humanity (apart from very rare exceptions), and to work with all one’s efforts for its destruction.
https://counter-currents.com/2021/10/savitri-devi-traditionalism-nature-religion/
https://counter-currents.com/2022/09/remembering-savitri-devi-13/

Also check out Bramwell's famous book Hitler's Green Party, often accused of being an apologia for National Socialism. And "How Green were the Nazis?" is a good, short book. Others:
https://counter-currents.com/2018/04/jorian-jenks-farmer-and-fascist/
https://counter-currents.com/2010/08/henry-williamson-natures-visionary/
https://counter-currents.com/2020/04/ecofascism-resurgent/

Some rogue German "greens" have recently turned toward revisionism regarding National Socialism, which they recognize as having had actual environmentalist policies unlike the pseudo-green movements under liberal democracy. Particularly Rolf Peter Sieferle, who wrote on both right-wing and green movements, and recently wrote Finis Germania and then committed suicide:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolf_Peter_Sieferle

[Anonymous No.23206117]

>>23205763
holy

[Anonymous No.23206407]

>>23206117
…I want more

[Anonymous No.23206450]

>>23204763
Christchurch livestream shooter, he referenced ecofascism in his manifesto but was only a reference

[Anonymous No.23206634]

>>23204566
I actually have an Ellul book but the constant shilling of him here turned me off

[Anonymous No.23206741]

>>23204251
>I have been on this website for over 13 years, so not much shocks me, but parts of this book LITERALLY made my jaw drop.

[Anonymous No.23206804]

>>23204274
the one slightly naive part is the assumption that all this is an accident and not a deliberate strategy by the ruling class. increase population + forcibly reduce living standards, then reduce population radically but maintain low living standards for the survivors (along with total control)

[Anonymous No.23206808]

>>23204796
human population rises to meet the available food supply. there is nothing else to control it

[Anonymous No.23207110]

>>23204251
I prefer Ludwig Klages since he gets the spirit of the issue.
>>23204274
You ignored how he doesn't like industrialized modernized Western countries either.
Linkola is not as bad as a /pol/tard "pepe race war now" fag. He'd probably like a deep ecologist childless non-white more than someone like a far-right white technophile who popped out 5-10 kids or something.

[Anonymous No.23207307]

>>23207110
Thoughts on John Zerzan or Derrick Jensen?

[Anonymous No.23207993]

Does deep ecology pair with social ecology or are they completely separate schools of thought?

[Anonymous No.23208191]

>>23204350
>Hes the logial end point 'humans are just another species that occurs in nature, and is a 'pest species'
I disagree, that belief is self-contradictory.
And I doubt Linkola truly believed it. Given that he then advocates for humanity to take action against these pests (a form of stewardship).
"Humanity is just another species of fauna—specifically an invasive one; therefore it must cull itself and others to protect the world ecosystem" is a contradiction.
In my opinion, at least.
>>23204251
No, I don't have any. I'm sorry.

[Anonymous No.23208203]

>>23208191
Nearly unrelated, but I'm starting to note a sort of profile among these people. Lonely, generally kind of anti-social outdoorsmen types and spiritualists. It's not surprising but I think it poisons the well of deep ecology with a very particular slant.

[Anonymous No.23208215]

Some of Linkola's claims were false, for example:

>"The annual volume increment of the forests of Finland increased from 57 to 108 mill. m3 a-1 from the 1960s to the 2010s (Official statistics of Finland, 2023a"

I found the book to be disappointing. He spergs about the fact that when he was a kid you ate fish fresh from the water, but now they are frozen and sold in supermarkets. He spergs about the fact that cats should be exterminated because they are hunting birds, etc. The boat analogy is fine but the book overall was mediocre.

[Anonymous No.23208221]

>>23207307
Not that guy, but wasn't Zerzan the guy who cut ties with Ted after Ted wrote his criticism of Anprim?

[Anonymous No.23208224]

>>23208203
And also hurts their social solutions because someone like Ted K or to a lesser extent Linkola probably won't have the best notion of how humans operate in society. Especially beyond the family unit.

[Anonymous No.23208228]

>>23208215
Potential problem with that stat is that it just counts total forest mass, with no distinction between new and old growth. Linkola doesn’t just complain about deforestation; he laments the fact that so many of the “forests” in Finland now are populated with trees no thicker than your wrist, while old growth forest are being cleared.

[Anonymous No.23208248]

>>23208215
Those points he “speeds” about are legitimate. It takes a ton more resources and energy to produce the frozen fish in the market, contributing to environmental degradation, putting pressure on local merchants, and alienating the consumer from the processes of production. His point about cats isn’t just that cats are hunting birds, but that cats are devastating populations, which is true.

[Anonymous No.23208249]

>>23208228
Fair point.

[Anonymous No.23208519]

>>23204277
>>23204283
Can you say which essay this is? I don't want to read the whole book but this intrigues me.

[Anonymous No.23208591]

>>23208221
Yeah I think so

[Anonymous No.23208599]

>>23208519
It’s in the essay titled “A Perspective on the State of the World, or The ABC of the Deep Ecologist — Part Two,” specifically the section titled “War.”

[Anonymous No.23208861]

>>23208599
Thanks man

[Anonymous No.23208865]

>>23208861
No problem. I’d be curious to hear your thoughts after you’ve read it.

[Anonymous No.23210237]

This is one of those books that gives you a higher priority on a watchlist, isn't it?

[Anonymous No.23210250]

>>23210237
Yeah likely. Idgaf though

[Anonymous No.23210255]

>>23204962
>poor people
Well, it was nice knowing you guys