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/lit/ - Literature

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23199538 No.23199538 [Reply] [Original]

Hippothales was Lysis' mentor, r-right bros?

>> No.23199847

I don't like all this 'handsome boys' talk in Lysis. Could it be a translation issue? Did the Greeks really fuck teenage boys on the side? Did Plato approve of this and denounce it later in life? Where the "greatest Greek thinkers", Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle pedophiles or not??

I haven't yet read all of Plato, just came across Lysis and saw this. It says its a member of his early works, but in what later works does Plato denounce it? because I haven't seen that yet

>> No.23199864
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23199864

>>23199538
>MFW IWN have an older man love me the way Hippothales loves Lysis

>> No.23200128

>>23199847
If you pay close attention, Socrates does make a suggestive comment to Lysis but he doesn’t act on it.

>> No.23200208

>>23200128
Yeah but what if somebody added this work later on to make Plato look like a fag... it just seems so out of place.

>> No.23200214

>>23200208
i know this is probably cope, but i wasn't expecting to find a whole dialogue revolving around pederasty

>> No.23200238

>>23200208
There are tons of dialogues which are considered spurious but Lysis is not one of them. Lysis is aporetic- a question is asked and all answers given are not suitable. It is clearly from the early era and can be easily placed alongside Laches and both Hippias.

>> No.23200247

>>23200238
>aporetic- a question is asked and all answers given are not suitable
damn, if we cant define friend how can we ever define something like State?
tons of dialogues which are considered spurious but Lysis is not one of them
rather disappointing, but is it true that Plato denounces this later?

>> No.23200258

>>23200247
No, the point of the dialogue isn’t to get Hippothales in Lysis pants as you so clearly misunderstand. It is to get you thinking of the nature of friendship and of unrequited love. Just because one “friend” doesn’t think of the other one and the same way does that signal an end of the “friendship?” Socrates’ answer is optimistic. The love the lover feels is still there unaffected much like how a body improves from medicine. It’s not about getting the two of the boys together but showing them that love and friendship are multifaceted. Cute, simple dialogue you can read in a half hour.

>> No.23200274

>>23200258
That may not be the point of the dialogue, but its clear that the relationship between Lysis and Hippothales is more than something "platonic." Are you saying the relationship between them was student/mentor? It seems rather sexual and inappropriate to me, unless there is some problem with the translation.

>> No.23200282
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23200282

>>23200274
Okay, Hippothales likes Lysis in “that way” and Lysis is clearly disgusted by him and tries to ignore him when he prattles on with his dumb poems. That is the scenario Socrates is working with. He is working to push them towards platonic ideal of love.

“It’s okay if Lysis doesn’t feel the same way because Lysis’ beautiful form gives you pleasure and that means you benefit”
Hippothales barely even likes Lysis at all besides being physically attracted to him and Socrates is attempting to show Hippothales that relationships are more than about just that aspect. It doesn’t end with the two of them sleeping together or anything so it’s not like Socrates pushed him into Lysis’ bed. He made them agree they are both just friends but that they share platonic love.

If you need that explained any further just search secondary lit on Lysis.

>> No.23200291

>>23200282
Although I think a better ending would have been Socrates clobbering Hippothales in front of everyone, I'd say you make a fair point.

>> No.23200298

>>23200214
Most of Phaedrus revolves around speeches concerning love within tbe context of eromenos-erastes relationships (i.e. pederasty)

>> No.23200305

>>23200291
Socrates was himself attracted to Lysis too hence the Cydias quote about the lion devouring the fawn when he peered into his robe. He just had self-restraint and knew that unbridled lust leads nowhere.

>> No.23200525

>>23200208
>I don't want this to be true so I will just pretend it isn't
Sums out our current society.

>> No.23200534

>>23200298
Yeah but that's under Plato's ideal of the relationship, with no sexual acts involved.