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/lit/ - Literature

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2319405 No.2319405 [Reply] [Original]

This motherfucker right here. Jorge Luis Fucking Borges.

How am I supossed to enjoy literature anymore if I already read the epitome of it? Content, language, style, depth, trascendence... the guy had everything.

His fascination to Shopenhauer only made his mindfuckery more deep, but still understandable enough to enjoy if you are not into philosophy.

Probably my favorite stories are The Immortal, The Aleph, The library of Babel and The book of sand. I've read Julio Cortazar and Italo Calvino, both of whom have a great style and played a lot with semiotics, but even them can top Borges depth.

He never won the Nobel, and when people asked about it he said: Not granting me the Nobel Prize has become a Scandinavian tradition; since I was born they have not been granting it to me.

Just wanted to tell you guys how awesome this motherfucker was.

>> No.2319411

>language

did you read him in spanish?

>> No.2319413

I bought Ficcones and Labyrinths, im looking forward to reading them.
Ive read a few of Julio Cortazars stories and i dont know what is going on.
Are they very similar?

>> No.2319430

>>2319411
Yes.

>>2319413
Quite, the labyrinthic writting is very similar, altough I like Borges better. I reccomend you read Invisible Cities from Italo Calvino too. The three of them had similar styles.

It's that kind of literature where you can read the stories a hundred times and you still get something out of it.

>> No.2319435

"lottery of babylon" for most underrated borges 2k12

>> No.2319507

>>2319405

>That feel when I am crashing through a list of books and he is at the end of it.

I hope you're not hyping this too much for me, OP.

>> No.2319511

There's still Bioy. He was an average-tier Borges, and his bro. Morel is pretty well known, but I'd recommend The Celestial Plot instead.

>> No.2319515
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2319515

>>2319430
>Quite

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFAG

>> No.2319526

What makes this guy ~so~ good? I read Labyrinths, enjoyed it a lot, was appropriately mindfucked, but didn't get what made it so "next level."

>> No.2319597

>>2319526
I believe it's his amazing way of jointing philosophy and writting.

For example, if you read The book of sand it's an entretaining story of something that aparently came out of this world. Something so strange that it's horrifying, it almost has a vibe like The color that came out of this world from Lovecraft

But if you're for the deep reading, it talks about how human perceive the infinity and how it's impossible for us to truly understand it. Infinity exist in the biggest space, yeah, but also in the smallest places.

A line is an infinite succession of points, each and every line, it doesnt matter it's size. So what if a book had an infinte succession of pages? And he kinds of explains it. You could never open it on the same page, you could never take one page alone, etc.

To be able to put this in a short story is incredible in my opinion.

His other works are similar. The aleph probably talks about the eye of God; Funes, the Memorious is about how we need to categorize because of our memory, how if there was something that had a perfect memory everything would be a single event for him; The library of Babylon is about the world of the ideas; etc.

>> No.2319600
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2319600

>mfw this is some meta timeloop infinite return Nietzschean X Borges mindfuckery of a thread

I've seen this OP 3 times in the last year.

>> No.2319612

>>2319597
In fact, I can't think of any story that was tedious, boring or simple.

>> No.2319622

>>2319612
I thought the Library of Babel was simple.

*waits for the lynch mob*

>> No.2319644

>>2319622

Youre wrong but he does have simple stories.
El Sur and that one story in the Aleph with that old crimelord who turns out to be the ultimate troll are pretty simple.

>> No.2319661
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2319661

>>2319622

Okay, the main idea. An enormous library so big as the combination of 26 (IIRC) characters that make sense can exist.

From this Borges makes you think if the library is infinite or not, give examples of how people die and live there, how the library exists...

But ultimately, you get all the substance from this story of you think of the books as ideas.

The ideas are almost infinite but that doesn't mean you can think them all, even if you get straight in a line of thought through your entire life (try to travel to the the edge of the library) you will die before knowing everything about it.

The search for The Catalog, the destiny of the books you can read where you are born (your time and placce), the zealots who burn books (but the idea persist); etc.

I don't think that story is simple at all.

>> No.2319669

>>2319661
That all just comes naturally and logically from the rather high-concept premise of a library where everything that could possibly be written exists.

>> No.2319670

The Library of Babel isn't even a story. It's a thought-experiment in the manner of Escher. Just description. NOTHING HAPPENS.

Borges does these a lot. The Garden of Forking Paths: that's a story.

>> No.2319686
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2319686

>>2319669

That something can be thought logically, doesn't makes it simple.

What I put there were already some of my deductions and I already gave the story some thought process. You can compare it with Plato's ideas or deduct a million things from what he wrote if you want. It's not simple at all.

I have to get some rest. Sorry if I don't make any sense.

>> No.2319689

>>2319686
>That something can be thought logically, doesn't makes it simple.

When we're dealing with these kind of premises of course it does.

>You can compare it with Plato's ideas

That doesn't demonstrate any inherent complexity in the text.

>> No.2319706
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2319706

Fucking Captcha reading my mind.

>> No.2319714

>>2319405

u must be stupid.
any authors who believe in concept of God is a stupid author.

>> No.2319717

I feel privileged of being a Spanish native and have the joy of reading Borges on the original. It seems his work it's very respected here on /lit/.

>>2319405
>He never won the Nobel, and when people asked about it he said: Not granting me the Nobel Prize has become a Scandinavian tradition; since I was born they have not been granting it to me.
The Nobel has always been left-leaning. Borges was too right-wing for the Academy.

>> No.2319720

>>2319714
>any authors who believe in concept of God is a stupid author.
Read "Three Versions of Judas".

>> No.2319721
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2319721

>>2319689
We are arguing over nothing.

Just how many thought process will you be willing to admit it takes to make something complex?

That story, as almost everything from him, can be understood with just one reading but to get the real essence you have to analyze it a lot of times.

If you are sure The library is just the physical entity described there, well, I can conveince you to think it's a complex idea.

>> No.2319725

>>2319714
Thanks for the information, it has been duly noted.

>> No.2319726

>>2319717
>I feel privileged of being a Spanish native and have the joy of reading Borges on the original. It seems his work it's very respected here on /lit/.
Pity none of the authors of my country (Chile) are nowhere near as awesome as Borges was. Two Nobels on garbage poetry.

>> No.2319729

>>2319721
Why are you so determined in asserting its complexity? It's simple but profound, there's nothing wrong with that.

>Just how many thought process will you be willing to admit it takes to make something complex?

How do you measure "thought process"?

Nothing about the story is particularly complex.

>> No.2319731

>>2319726
Fucking Nobels, how do they work?

I just read Herta Mueller, 2011 Nobel and it was complete garbage. But she has a really political stand against communism so probably that's why she got it. Winston Churchil is also a Literature Laurate WTF.

>> No.2319734

>>2319731
>Winston Churchil is also a Literature Laurate WTF.
"The Second World War"

>> No.2319737

>>2319731
Nobels are the Oscars of literature.

>mfw no nobel for pynchon
>mfw i have no face

>> No.2319743

>>2319737
>>mfw i have no face
Neither does Pynchon. At least he's a sensible choice. I'm tired of the bickering of "Nobel 4 Rob Zimmerman pl0x" all around the Internet.

>> No.2319750
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2319750

>>2319731

Thomas Transtomer won it last year, Mueller won it a few years ago - 2008 or 9.

>> No.2319754

>>2319737
>>2319743

Pynchon just isn't good enough.


>>2319731
>>2319734

Churchill won the literature prize because the Nobel committee wanted to honour him, and they obviously couldn't give him the peace prize because: all the fighting. So they gave him the literature prize.

>> No.2319756

>Learn to read Spanish
>Enjoy on whole new level

>> No.2319758

>>2319600
repost this fucking image

>> No.2319773

>>2319754
>isn't good enough

Shut the fuck up, you don't know what the fuck you're saying

>> No.2319778

>>2319773

Suit yourself, but Pynchon will never win the Nobel. Someone like Don DeLillo has a much better chance, but it will be a while before an American wins it again so you'll have to wait and see who's alive then.

unless they do end up giving the fucking thing to Bob Dylan just to troll everybody

Haruki Murakami was one of the favourites with the bookies last year, and 19Q4 might just put him over the top this time. Japan have only won it twice, and I think the committee will give it to Japan this time round.

>> No.2319801

>>2319778

Or they'll find some random scando that nobody ever heard of to give it to.

>> No.2320234

>Churchill won the literature prize because the Nobel committee wanted to honour him

I can understand that, but that's only against the image of the Nobels. They won't give it to you if you contribute to literature but more based on your political views and achievements.

>> No.2320252

>>2319778
OVER THE TOP WITH THAT PILE OF GARBAGE???!?!?!?!?
seriously fuck you, he ruined his chances forever with that tryhard nobel-begging pile of turds

>> No.2320293
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2320293

people actually care if an author got the nobel prize?

>> No.2320385
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2320385

Borges sort of is the epitome of literature in a way...I think he mastered allegory and philosophical fiction.

>> No.2320512

>>2320385

Not to mention literary theory and criticism.

>> No.2320558

Yes, I love Borges.

On the other hand, everybody who's made it through a college-level lit class with a grade higher than C also loves Borges. So this thread is kinda like saying "HAY GUISE! There's this band called The Beatles and I think they're just the gorilla's dicknipples! Why oh why are they so awesome!?"

Pro: Everyone will agree with you.
Con: Everyone will agree with you.

>> No.2320611

>>2320558
The Beatles fucking suck.

>> No.2320719

>>2320611
This thread is now about why the Beatles suck. It's a much more interesting subject.

>> No.2320722

>>2320719
http://www.scaruffi.com/vol1/beatles.html

>> No.2320752

>>2320719
In all honesty I just find the Beatles a bit bland and boring. Their music seems completely devoid of edge or grit, I just think "Oh, that's quite a nice, inoffensive song" when I listen to them.

>> No.2320917

>>2319720
oh yeah! I love that story

>> No.2320922

>>2319405
Read the non-fiction stuff. It's actually better than the short stories. Only a small part of his writings has been translated (he wrote over 1500 pieces), but the stuff in "The Total Library: Non-Fiction 1922-1986" is absolutely fascinating.

>> No.2320926

>>2320922
I like the stories that start in a book of 1958 (for example) and continue in a book of 1975

>> No.2320981

>>2319526
Well, Borges is good for so many reasons that this is a bit tough to explain. Here are some of the major points:

His influence on 20th century literature and literary criticism is absolutely gigantic. Barthes and Derrida basically copy-pasted Borges to a large extent (note that Pierre Menard came out in 1939, half-serious and half-parody of an idea that would only be established 3 decades later). Baudrillard, Deleuze and Foucault were heavily influenced. Pynchon, Calvino, Eco, Bolano, Fuentes, Pamuk, DFW, PKD, Gibson were all affected by Borges in big ways.

His view of philosophy simultaneously as a serious and important pursuit and as part of fantastic literature is highly unique and the fact that you can never tell if he's joking or being serious when fucking around with all these philosophical ideas is part of the charm.

He's really funny. The wit is ridiculously dry so it's easy to miss at times, but a close reading reveals really great humor in many of his stories.

Borges was one of the best-read people to have lived, ever. This obviously rubs off on his writing. And he read things nobody else read.

His style is completely unique and I think the closest any prose writer has come to perfection. The attention to detail is absolutely astounding and with a bit of digging it's possible to uncover marvelous things. He plays etymological games all the time for example. It's not only incredibly concise and multi-layered and highly effective at communicating Borges' dense subject matter, but it also has tons of character.

His criticism is fucking amazing. His writings on the Divine Comedy for example are absolutely fantastic (there's a series of essays called Nine Dantesque Essays that you should try to find). He was also a great film critic.

>> No.2320999

>>>Borges was one of the best-read people to have lived, ever.

This. Ezra Pound has to be in this discussion as well.

>> No.2321012

>>2320981
>He was also a great film critic.

What films did he like?

>> No.2321016

Superb craftsman of language who offers the reader an endless series of enigmas and twisting paradoxs leading down to a state of utter unknowing. The one thing he forgot to do was give anybody even a modicum of hope that they'll figure out what in this universe true joy is. Other than feeling intellectually superior of course.

>> No.2321030

Oh! I like when he mix religion, Sherlok Holmes and Schopenhauer in one story

>> No.2321062

Funes, The Memorious is one of many favorites in Ficciones.
I really have to pick up Aleph.

>> No.2321070

>>2321012
I don't have the texts available to look into it in more detail but I remember he liked Hitchcock and Welles. Not a big Chaplin fan. He also wrote a great little piece on dubbing (http://southerncrossreview.org/65/borges-dubbing.htm).).

>> No.2321183

>>2319726
Sabe ud. que era un anglófono?
>>2319717
Vas a dejar de Chile como Bolaño?

>> No.2321702
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2321702

>>2320999

Hate to disagree with trips, but the fact that he WAS FUCKING BLIND for a lot of his life means that he wasn't all that well read. I bet he never got the raw, visceral impact of DFW or Tao Lin, direct in the eyeball from the holy god-given book of paper, right in his lap. I BET HE NEVER HAD THAT FUCKING FEEL.

Blind people = beneath your contempt.

>> No.2321711

>>2321702

Ezra Pound wins!

>> No.2321718

>>2321012


Apparently, he wrote this story, back in 1932 where he was really into some movie called Inception, and then the actor who played the lead in the movie woke up one day and realised that he was trapped in the movie, and that HE WAS REALLY FUCKING FAT AND SWEATY AND WTF LEO?

>> No.2321724
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2321724

Sweden and Norway have won 11 nobel prizes for literature between them.

The USA has also won 11

The UK 10

Just saiyan.

>> No.2321734

I got his complete fictions and I've flipped through a few stories and I really liked them. Very fascinating. Will get to it all someday.

>> No.2321747

>>2321724
No country had as many great authors as the United States during the 20th century.

>> No.2321752

>>2321747
lol good one unless youre talking purely about quantity and including poets

>> No.2321764

>>2321724
Why didn't you start with USA having 11 nobels? Nobody gives a fuck if two countries combined got 11, either name only one or don't, bro.

>> No.2321765

>>2321747
>Samuel Langhorne Clemens (November 30, 1835 – April 21, 1910)
That's one (1). Even a European backwater like Castalia could rustle up one.

>> No.2321766

>>2321747

So why do two countries with populations less than 12m people keep pwning you in the nobel prize, ameritard.

And I'm not even including the Finnish or the Danes, because the Finnish are largely animals who should be exterminated, and the Danes are tough and scary.

>> No.2321780

>>2321766
>implying the nobel committee is impartial
>iignoring the real impressive stat in this thread: the UK has one less Nobel than America, yet 1/5 of the population

>> No.2321862

>>2321780

Don't your two points kinda cancel one another out?

>> No.2321959

>>2321862
Why would they? The Committee is staffed by Scandinavians and the awards are handed out in Oslo and Stockholm. I doubt anyone could succesfully argue that the combined literary establishment of Norway and Sweden is the greatest in the world. Thus their combined total of 11 prizes is obviously biased.

I'm merely stating that it's impressive that the UK has a near equal share of the relatively unbiased prizes when the United States has a population 4.9 times larger.

>> No.2321966

>>2321959
Though I suppose one could argue that the Committee's bias extends towards other European countries at a lesser degree.

>> No.2321974

>>2321959
Still I don't understand how Churchil trascended in the world of literature.

>> No.2321978

>>2321966
Also, it is very biased towards english language.

>> No.2321993

>>2321974

For all his historical writing which is cited as "masterful" or some shit in the nobel citation, and also for oratorical defeat of THE ENTIRE FUCKING NAZI PARTY.

You want to complain about giving Winston Churchill a proze for literature ? When Barry Obama got one for [insert reason here, because I don't know]

>> No.2322009

>>2321978

France = 15 nobel laureates for literature.

rest of le monde = le told.

>> No.2322010

>>2321974

Have you read Marlborough? Its one of my favorite books, and one of the greatest works of military history and biography ever. His memoirs of the second world war are along with schirers rise and fall the most important books of the era, and the history of the english speaking peoples is a great work for general audiences. His ww1 books sucked, because he was basically saying sorry for gallipoli while he should have been discussing the Somme but still...

Churchill deserved his accolades

>> No.2322014

>>2322009
c'est plus facile etre un bon ecrivain si tu ecrit on francais, la langue est elle-meme belle

>> No.2323336

>>2319778
>19Q4 might just put him over the top this time.
Haha, no. This is coming from an otherwise fan.

The Nobel's not going to be awarded to an American any time soon, and I'm fine with that. Most of the past few winners (with the exception of Llosa) were awarded the prize on primarily political terms -not true literary merit. If that's how you win that award, well then fuck that. And if there does happen to be an American winner sometime soon PYNCHON, I hope he or she pulls a Sartre and passes.

>> No.2323423

Would it be a waste to read his work in English?

>> No.2323425

>>2323423

n

>> No.2323436

>>2323336

Pynchon hasn't a chance. Questions of quality and ability aside, the committee will never ever give it to him.

Because they're afraid he'll refuse to show up and will turn it down

>> No.2323453

>>2322010
What is Marlborough?

>> No.2324453

>>2323423
No, while his use of spanish is master level and a real reason to read it, the english translation keeps the feeling and all the impact Borges try to transmit.

>> No.2324485
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2324485

>>2319405

Can't argue with you OP. You are win.

>> No.2324489

I am also a huge biggest Borges fan.

But to be fair he does have his weakness. For instance, Borges is not really concerned with creating psychologically complex characters. Just wasn't his thing.

>> No.2324492

>>2320611
And so does Borges.

>> No.2324501

>>2320722

>I can only name religious fundamentalists as annoying (and as threatening) as Beatles fans and as persevering in sabotaging anyone who dares express an alternative opinion on their faith.

I like this scaruffi guy, he's cool.

>> No.2324506

>>2319405
He only wrote nonsense and stupid shit. Absolutely nothing worth reading.
He was a /b/-class writer. Also, many people mocked him because he, like the pussy he was, never spoke against the dictatorships.

I really don't understand how he could get away with publishing such garbage.

>> No.2324569
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2324569

>>2324492
Picture very related.

>> No.2324574

>>2324506
He didn't speak against dictatorships because HE WAS A FUCKING WRITTER, he didn't have to speak against anything just to appeal to the amerifat gobernment like writters and musicians do.

Also, if you read Deutsch Requiem, maybe he was a pro-nazi. Either that or he called the USA and his allies nazis. But I don't want to spoil the story to you, so go ahead and read it.

>> No.2324578

>>2324574
*like other writters

>> No.2324583

I'm only slightly fluent in Spanish. Would it be a mistake to try to read him in Spanish?

>> No.2324590

>>2324583
It will be very hard, I would reccommend having a dictionary on hand.

>> No.2324594

>>2324590
In that case, I think I'll stick with English for now, and try building my skills with some simpler Spanish lit.

>> No.2324595

>>2324583

Yeah dude has a pretty subtle style so if your vocabulary and comprehension aren't too good you might miss something huge. Big risk of that considering the short stuff he wrote.

>> No.2324631

>>2319600


maybe it's not the thread. maybe it's you who's having the meta Nietzsche infinite return timeloop

>> No.2324731

It's time for Kafka and Kobo Abe.

>> No.2324733

Also, Beckett

>> No.2326298

>>2324583
As >>2324595 points out you run the risk of too much whizzing over your head for the experience to be worthwhile. I recommend you build your Spanish muscles first, with authors like Carlos Ruiz Zafon, Arturo Perez-Reverte, et al., and tackle Borges when he's only slightly above your ability.

You may also find it helpful to read Spanish-language versions of your favorite books, or translations of authors whose work you are familiar with in your native language.

>> No.2327275

>>2324583
On that subject I want to add that Borjes is difficult even for spanish native speakers.

>> No.2328073

>>2327275
indeed. he really pushes into using all the resources the Spanish language haves, who is enormous.

if someone wants ebook versions of some of Borges works, here's a nice link:

http://epubgratis.me/?q=taxonomy/term/499

>> No.2329207

 

>> No.2329225
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2329225

>>2324733
my nigga. borges and beckett are 2 of my favourite 3 writers. the other one is lowry, hes somewhere between borges and joyce.

>> No.2331167

>>2329207
Five stars post.

>> No.2331180

>>2329207
this niga

>> No.2331192 [DELETED] 

>>2320252

Fuck yes. They won't give the Nobel to some

cocksucker who writes the same goofy character

that likes spaghetti, has a cat, and screws

mysterious cunts.

>> No.2331196

Haruki Murakami has nowhere near the stature required to win the Nobel, it would be a fucking terrible choice and basically the end of any kind of respect for the lit prize