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/lit/ - Literature


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23189714 No.23189714 [Reply] [Original]

How is this not considered a fiction book?


>9 cases of literal unicorns
>hundreds of 900 year old men?
>talking snakes
>talking donkeys
>hundreds of examples of demonic possession and exorcism
>hundreds of resurrections
>Jesus cursing fig trees
>dragons
>Earth is 6000 years old

This all happened after Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Thucydides, Stoicism etc.

>> No.23189722

>>23189714
Christians don’t read anon, they’re literally the peasant masses.

>> No.23189801

because its categorized as a religious text

>> No.23189819

>>23189714
>fiction
>demonic possession and exorcism
I've experienced some strange shit in my family and can guarantee this is real

>> No.23189834

>>23189714
>How is this not considered a fiction book?
It isn't a single book.
It is two books.
Each comprised of other books.
Most of which are comprised of yet other books.
The Most Important of which are comprised of multiple oral traditions redacted in multiple books shoe horned independently into 11 or so "Books."

Also fiction has to be good.

>> No.23189851

>>23189714
The Bible was written as religious truth by people that believed it to be true, while modern Christians who are not /pol/schizos can recognize that Genesis's value lies not in a historical or scientific document but for its philosophical implications about the nature of humanity and free will.
The definition of fiction is work that was written with the intent of being a crafted story that the authors know didn't happen.
The definition of non-fiction is not "book that is true." The Communist Manifesto is non-fiction even if you are not a Marxist or agree with anything Marx says in that book.
The definition of non-fiction is literally "anything that is not fiction." And the Bible is not fiction.

>> No.23189859
File: 159 KB, 886x1200, 1040-1103-Nicolas-Bertin-The-Resurrection.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23189859

It's all real Anon, especially the Resurrection.

>> No.23189909

>>23189859
The earth is not 6000 years old

>> No.23189913
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23189913

>>23189909
The Nephilim were real, though. The giants, too. There might even still be a few of them around.

>> No.23189918

>>23189859
>>23189909
"Real" has a special technical meaning in humanities research due to Lacan. The Resurrection is an instance of "The Real" in that it is literally The Name of the Father or the Phallus. It didn't happen in the sense of scholarly history, but in the sense of the real it is a terrifying impossibility which makes you not-see your dad's penis.

>> No.23189923

>>23189714
It's fiction if you don't believe any of it happened. I believe all of it did.

>This all happened after Plato, Aristotle, Epicurus, Thucydides, Stoicism etc.

Now that is NOT true. Some of it did, such as the New Testament, but most of the Old Testament was either before or during.

>> No.23189925

>>23189859
Blessed lent, Christian brothers

>> No.23189927

>>23189923
So why didn't the Greeks write about all these things?

>> No.23189947

>>23189834
>It isn't a single book.
The Bible
>It is two books.
Old Testament and New Testament
>Each comprised of other books.
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, etc ... Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Revelation, etc.
>Most of which are comprised of yet other books.
HUH??? I literally don't follow. Please spell this layer out for me.

>> No.23189959

>>23189909
>The earth is not 6000 years old
I was watching some flat earth video that was asserting that the earth is only about 200 years old.
Part of it's evidence was photographs of a fully developed city in the middle of the day, when you would expect people to be walking all over the place, and yet the photographer was able to catch several photos of the entire city in daytime empty.
It made me think. It could be bullshit, but I don't know how you would photoshop or make a composite shot of several photographs from the same angle and remove the people from it, though perhaps it's possible.
I'm too busy trying to advance my career to deeply investigate flat earth shit as much more than an idle curiosity from time to time when I'm bored, and since I already distrust the government and the powers that be, and I am in no need for additional reasons to distrust them, nor would irrefutable evidence of the flat earth serve me much better than just spreading the word of shit normalfags already know about like Epstein and his girlfriend's father.
I do pick up little things like this from time to time, and wonder though.

>> No.23190035
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23190035

>>23189947
>HUH??? I literally don't follow. Please spell this layer out for me.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Documentary_hypothesis

The Torah through Nehemiah (You activated THE LORD's trap engineer) are composed of multiple literary traditions. Genesis clearly reads as a slam compile of multiple prior texts each describable adequately as "A book." Some of which are comprised of prior textual traditions. Everything through to Nehemiah is compiled from multiple literary traditions, and Chronicles and Kings reference each other an other non-surviving texts.

It is textual transmissions all the way down.

>> No.23190040

>>23189714
>there were giants in the earth in those days
never elaborate

>> No.23190167

>>23189959
You are the dumbest fucking retard on the planet. Read about photography.

>Early cameras also had a very slow shutter speed, meaning that the shutter remained open exposing the plate to light for a longer period of time. Though early daguerreotype images required an exposure of around twenty minutes, by the early 1840s it had been reduced to about twenty seconds. Even so, photography subjects needed to remain completely still for long periods of time for the image to come out crisp and not blurred by their movement. Sometimes squirming children were put into restraints for the duration of the photo shoot. This need for stillness made posing for a picture a serious business, so the practice of smiling for the camera did not become standard until the 1920s, when technological advancements in camera production allowed for shortened exposure times.

https://dp.la/exhibitions/evolution-personal-camera/early-photography#

>> No.23190328

>>23189909
Please understand that the bible was a product of it's time, it was written by people chosen God who were trained for the task and the writers wrote how they see fit. So it isn't a scientific book nor it was the point to know irrelevant things such as how old the planet was etc.

Just take the bible for what it is and not what yo want it to be

>> No.23190380

>>23189819
Did it fo away when you took your meds?

>> No.23190390
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23190390

wtf you're right snakes don't actually talk. how did no one notice this for 2000 years? bro you should tell more people about this. guess i'm an atheist now.

>> No.23190401

>>23190390
I notice you all never try to explain the snake thing, when someone brings it up, you just make fun of people hoping they forget it.
Im not going to forget it, though.
So explain the taking snake, retard.
Your games are not going to work here.

>> No.23190404

>>23189819
That's called schizophrenia, anon, not possession. Even the modern Catholic Church will refer you to a psychiatrist first before consenting to an exorcism.

>> No.23190406

>>23190035
>chapters are now books

>> No.23190413

>>23190401
The serpent (the devil) wasn't "a snake" and the fruit wasn't "an apple." It's a cosmological story about free will and the origins of human consciousness.

It's insanely grating seeing atheists try to take the most watered-down Sunday-school amerimutt translation, take it at face value with no introspection, and smugly dismiss it.

>> No.23190422

>>23190413
If the bible is metaphors what are we supposed to take seriously? If we ask about the laws like not wearing two fabrics or not eating shellfish people say that doesn't count either.. what is supposed to count?

>> No.23190432

>>23190422
The Bible is not one unified text and its interpretation isn't independent of theology or tradition. You sound like a legitimate fourteen-year-old.
>If we ask about the laws like not wearing two fabrics or not eating shellfish people say that doesn't count either.
Those laws are from Moses. Christians believe Moses' laws were fulfilled and superseded by Jesus' laws. The way those laws change is very clearly illustrated in the New Testament and anxiety over the change is very clearly shown to be a dramatic and controversial thing even within the Bible itself.

>> No.23190453

>>23190432
NTA
>its interpretation isn't independent of theology or tradition.
So, it depends on a person's biases and cherry-picking? Got it.
>Christians believe Moses' laws were fulfilled and superseded by Jesus' laws.
Jesus himself says he wasn't here to abolish the old law.
>The way those laws change is very clearly illustrated in the New Testament
Yes... the way the laws are changed by Jesus' disciples after his death, not by Jesus himself. Some of the changes are literally just a compromise to let "pagans" in without offending old-school Jews too much.

>> No.23190458

>>23190432
So we are supposed to follow New Testament Laws correct?
Matthew 5:31-32
1 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.’[a] 32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

1 Corinthians 11:6

"For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head."

Luke 12:33

33 Sell your possessions, and give to the needy. Provide yourselves with moneybags that do not grow old, with a treasure in the heavens that does not fail, where no thief approaches and no moth destroys.


Ephesians 6:5-8
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ. 6 Obey them not only to win their favor when their eye is on you, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from your heart. 7 Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, 8 because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free.


1 Timothy 6:1-2
6 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves.

1 Peter 2:18
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

>> No.23190460

>>23190422
People have been arguing about this for thousands of years

>> No.23190484
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23190484

>And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good.
>And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
>And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
what do they mean by this, he didn't know in advance it will be good? is he a fucking retard that he just winged the world creation and hoped for the best?

>> No.23190487

>>23190484
It's more like he was noting it was good so when it later becomes bad he can punish the people for ruining it. God was the first landlord

>> No.23190488

>>23189714
Cause enough people said it wasn't and then one of them was an emperor and it snowballed from there

>> No.23190490

>>23190413
The story is literally an explanation for why snakes lost their legs and slither as a punishment though, you disingenuous faggot.

>> No.23190491

>>23190487
oh shit I hope he doesn't turn the light off

>> No.23190504

>>23189851
Genesis is like a dream recounted, very blurry and vague.
There are scientists who are also apolegists and but haven’t read any.

>> No.23190508

>>23189714
It’s hyperbole, some even say 900 years is actually 900/12 actualy years.
But one thing im sure of is the gospels are reliable historical narratives, Jesus existed and walked in israel and died and resurrected.
Bart ehrman who is atheist says if we can’t know for sure that jesus died on the cross we can’t know anything about history.
It’s not that big of a step to also believe he resurrected since the reliability of the gospels is already established.

>> No.23190525

>>23190508
Seems silly to cite the credibility of a man for being an atheist when despite that he's still an atheist...

>> No.23190540

is there any religion that just has their god and nothing else? no miracles, no resurrections, water walking, nothing supernatural except the god himself

>> No.23190563

>>23189714
If you honestly want to learn more: don’t listen to some Baptist preacher, an evangelical nut job, a tradcath larper online, or something similar, read some biblical criticism.
Lutheran and Catholic academics are probably the ones to read, or even Jewish.

>> No.23190585

>>23189714
For all their talk of their "superior intellect", atheists read the Bible in a very superficial and literal way, without trying to understand it.

>>23190563
Academical Biblical studies are a pretty bad area, IMO.
That the "anonymous gospel authorship" theory became the mainstream view when all available evidence points to traditional authorship and when there has been zero evidence of anyone arguing for anonymous gospels for 1,800 years is not a sign of a good academic area.

It is about the same level as Shakespeare authorship controversy, with the same kind of arguments.

>> No.23190619

>>23190525
He’s an atheist for personal reasons, probably hurt and God hasn’t heard his prayers or whatever, he used to be Christian.

>> No.23190622

>>23190619
Yes I got it right, he became an atheist because of the problem of evil.

>> No.23190674
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23190674

>>23190585
>For all their talk of their "superior intellect", atheists read the Bible in a very superficial and literal way, without trying to understand it.
Everyone understand the moral subtext of Scripture. It's really not that profound to read between the lines if you're at all even literate. The difference is noone insists Aesop's Fables are literally real life historical accounts of talking animals just because the stories contain emotional truths.
For all your mockery of fedoras, your self-righteous insistence upon your own intelligence is ironic.

>> No.23190710

>>23190674
The Bible has many books of different genres.
Some were meant to be read figuratively, some were meant to be read as real life history accounts (for example, the Gospels, the Acts of the Apostles).

>> No.23190778

>>23190710
This distinction only depends on how far you're willing to suspend your disbelief as a modern. The common Christian never believed Genesis was any more than matter of fact account of the creation of Man. Retreating into esoterics about how the Tree of Knowledge was actually a metaphor for the agriculture revolution/evolution of consciousness/a psychedelic mushroom/the first orgasm is just coping with the fact that you actually have an education which contradicts mythology.

>> No.23190810

>>23189714
The Holy Bible has different registers. In nearly all instances a metaphorical cosmological model is being implemented but at times it is only this and not a literal or a literal and not a metaphorical. For example, genetic studies show that our most recent common ancestor dates to 5,000-10,000 years ago or to Abraham and we all have one biological set of ancestors (one Adam and one Eve) and these are dogmas of the faith but there's likely 80-90,000 years between these two figures and as such we see Genesis as us going below the surface of the human pysche, spiritual texture, fallenness, and embodiment more generally. It's acknowledged by the Church that the first 11 chapters of Genesis are likely not to be read literally historically.
>>23190404
>before
Yeah and then what about after?
>>23190401
See Meditation on the Tarot for more but the snake is evolution without grace and the Church is evolution via grace or with grace depending on your preference.

>> No.23190820

>>23190453
>biases
No. Tradition is run by the baptized in communion with the Church in a state of grace. It's a technical theological state of being that then creates a community of faithful which guards, lives out, and develops the deposit of Faith.

>> No.23190824

>>23190585
None of what I've read goes for anonymous gospel autorship.
Most controversial I've heard was that Gospel of St. John and Book of Revelations were written by different Johns, both followers of Christ.

>> No.23190828

>>23190778
>The common Christian never believed Genesis was any more than matter of fact account of the creation of Man.
This is just a sophisticated way of saying that Canadians are uneducated so the educated Canadians are wrong or anything else. The "modern" brain is just pretending that you need to be fundamentally in a state of metaphysical doubt while never actually acting like it. I've yet to see a post-modernist get confused by a restaurant menu and fretting what a cheeseburger is and yet they would argue a cheeseburger doesn't exist as it's a cultural artifact and not a real entity. Genetic science is basically statistical guesswork and evolution is definitively a guided process. It really just boils down to the fact that most people have had a self-induced orgasm and not a powerful spiritual experience and as such they think spiritual folks who say self-abuse is a grave sin (it is a homosexual act so it is) they just can't relate to and think they're crazy and thus they believe the body over their reason.

>> No.23190834

>>23190674
I ask you this if the resurrection of christ is real, then why shouldn’t talking animals be real.

>> No.23190841

>>23190834
Animals can't receive the Gospel and talking is a function of an ensouled being of a certain bodily maturity. Also, keep in mind, if you have a pet then you do believe animals "speak" or communicate but obviously it's a matter of degree. The serpent is a symbol for the following:
>half the double hylix of DNA
>foot steps versus shapes (God is footsteps of prophets and Satan uses the fashions of the world with constantly changing cuts)
>false Trinity of the ouroborus which is the idea that life swallows itself

>> No.23190842

>>23190778
This is not a modern thing.
Origen and Augustine taught Christians to read some books allegorically from the very beginning...

>> No.23190845

>>23190842
Exactly this. See: Revelation! Angels don't have scrolls

>> No.23190853

>>23189714
you think demons don't exist?
go to peru, ayahuasca sesh, and see for yourself.

motherfuckers think evil is fiction
go touch grass you stupid fucking cunt

>> No.23190885

>>23190810
>dogmas
Correction - only Adam and Eve being real first humans are dogma. Keep in mind, we forget something that evolutiom tries to cover up, if a new species of animals emegres you need a male and a female of that species at the same time that can co-breed. Abraham is a historical person from Sumer, Ur. Apologies for the mistake.

>> No.23190887

>>23190853
>consume a psychedelic and induce a schizo hallucination
>checkmate, GAYtheists!

>> No.23190894

>>23190887
Pyschedelics just turn up the volume on the imagination and allow you to access things that are beneath the surface. They do allow demons to exploit you but also they don't. I saw heaven and the Holy Catholic Church on shrooms and trust me when I say I am absolutely certain - more than of my name. This isn't to encourage drugs but I do think pyschedelics, specifically of natural origin, may be less harmful than you can imagine.

>> No.23190897

>>23190894
What an absolutely reddit perception of divinity

>> No.23190904
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23190904

>>23190404
>That's called schizophrenia, anon, not possess-ACK

>> No.23190905

>>23190897
There's an irony to your post

>> No.23190924

>>23190905
>BRO JUST TAKE SHROOMS AND SEE GOD DUDE

>> No.23190927

>>23190904
All of these faggots look completely like the average burger sans the couple with face tattoos. Post physique.

>> No.23190969
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23190969

anon, you must not believe in 'fiction'.
anon, only the materialistic, non-metaphysical is right.
anon, you must trust the 60 kilo scientists, that look like the product of 500 years of incest.

>> No.23191013

>>23190969
>le orthodox chad wojak
15 years old tops

>> No.23191129

>>23189714
you're under hostile occupation by war criminals who made magic a secret so they can have gay sex in underground bases, you dumb ape

>> No.23191155

>>23190401
Yes, the snake talked, Mary had jesus without intercourse, and the water was really turned into wine.

Christians who claim to believe in God and question those things are pathetic.
They're not metaphors.
Why would they need to be metaphors? If God is omniscient and omnipotent, he's capable of many miracles, why couldn't the water be turned into wine?

The snake talked.
If you're willing to believe that the entire universe started from nothing for no reason, and you don't deeply understand all the scientific literature behind the big bang, then you're just like those who believe in the talking snake. You believe, you don't know. And even the scientists cannot truly know, they can only infer with a certain degree of probability.
You navigate through life by belief. You believe that you're going to wake up tomorrow, and I'm sure your life is full of planned events for the future. Yet you may die tonight. Humanity believes, we cannot live without faith and belief.

>> No.23191524

>>23190390
Alright well do yourself a favour and assume the entire Bible is metaphorical

>> No.23191530

>>23190490
Dude it's a metaphor for... uh... worms losing their arms for tempting Eve to eat an orange

>> No.23191546

>>23189913
Source?

>> No.23191548

>>23191155
>Yes, the snake talked.
????
And i am supposed to believe that?
Why dosen't god make snakes talk temporarily nowadays so it's easier for mankind to believe in it?

>> No.23191588

>>23189714
It would be opening a massive can of worms to shove that into the fiction section. Do you want every little New Age book tossed into the fiction section too? Discredited shit like psychoanalysis? What about all the books based on old scientific claims that turned out to be wrong?

>> No.23191598

>>23189959
With Photoshop that's possible, but it could also be arranged photographs, the photographer or photographa picking his or her moment, people being at work, the covid-19-sars-2 epidemic lockdown, among other things.

>> No.23191983

>>23190413
So, basically fiction? You have to understand that your "interpretation" of the Biblical story is a very modern take and would have been branded capital heresy for most of the history of Christianity. You can literally thank enlightenment atheists for your ability to hold that view and not be punished by the authorities.

>> No.23192143

>>23191548
Because God is not at your disposal, and God wants you to believe, not to know. Knowing requires nothing but proof, believing takes faith and love.
If God wanted people to know he existed, he would have told everyone.
Besides, there are chances that even if snakes spoke to you, you would find a way to argue God out of the equation.

>> No.23192155

>>23189722
fpbp

>> No.23192506

>>23190453
Fulfilled =/= abolished.

The entire Sermon on the Mount is literally Jesus saying "Moses' law said [X], but I SAY [Y]" over and over.

>>23191983
I guess Origen and Augustine were "enlightenment atheists" huh

>> No.23192524

>>23189722
Truth

>> No.23192530

>>23189714
World is full of idiots that need to believe in something. It doesn’t really bother me until they start spouting off weird bullshit.

>> No.23192543
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23192543

>>23189714
powerful

>> No.23192556

>>23189722
Same with Muslims and their Koran. These books are designed to not be accessible. They work because the vast majority do not read. Even if they tried to read, they would fail to grasp thr true meaning.

>> No.23192939

>>23189714
>unicorns
When KJV translators used this, it was another term for a rhino. They even made a marginal note for it

>> No.23193056

>>23190406
>zoomer hasn't read any books older than a thousand years.
Yes. Chapters were books in those days, you fucking idiot.

>> No.23193058

>>23190540
Deism sects

>> No.23193069

>>23191598
>With Photoshop that's possible, but it could also be arranged photographs, the photographer or photographa picking his or her moment, people being at work, the covid-19-sars-2 epidemic lockdown, among other things.
I forgot to mention. All the photos were black and white photos from about the 1800's.

>> No.23193115
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23193115

I've been reading this lately. Not sure how I feel about it. The central premise seems to be 'silly modern people, expecting religion to have answers or say things about the nature of reality, or existence of the supernatural. It was never for that. It was always just a cope.'

Which, sure, ancient people thought differently. But I can't imagine that they were willing to fight and die over things they didn't take literally or seriously.

>> No.23193204

>>23190487
Typical landlord scratching up the wooden floor and blaming the tenant

>> No.23193257

>>23190484
You can't like something before it exists. Which for a Christian subtly reinforces the uncreated nature of the Persons of the Trinity, which are connected in unity rather than being created things like the rest of creation.

>> No.23194475

https://youtu.be/ZB3I52KfS_w?si=Ah84MKbQs2vWC3tw

>> No.23194501

>>23192543
LAWDY, I SHO' LOVES THE SCIENCE. EVERY CIVILIZATION BUT DIS ONE KNEW DA URF WERE FLAT, AND WE IS CLEARLY THE MOST ADVANCED. WHAT DEM ARYAN HONKIES KNOW, ANYWAY? PASS ME THAT CRUNK, COADJUTOR TYRONE. HEY, WHAT DAT BEEP?

>> No.23194503

>>23189714
Why would any of that be false? You seem to be approaching the Bible from a materialistic POV which makes no sense. I do believe that the supernatural can enter reality and produce miracles (either good or evil), therefore that a demonically-possesed serpent talks or a donkey does presents no problem for my worldview at all. Even less so resurrection, that I see as the most important of all christian miracles.

Ridicule isn't an argument, anon.

>> No.23194579

>>23194503
just a regular demon posession proves miracles exist. demonic posession is a very strong case, since those that do claim they have it will have to go through psychiatric and medical examinations to be able to arrange an exhorcism. meaning that probably an exhorcism that is arranged nowadays happens because the state of the patient is inexplicable otherwise.

>> No.23194584

>>23194579
not to mention vivid accurate NDEs where the mind is not supposed to be even imagine the most vague images at all (during clinical death).

I remember two years ago I had an operation and I literally don't remember anything that was happening to me, the liquid in my body had a strong scent and I could smell even though it was in my body, after like 1 minute it got me unconscious.
I think I was dreaming during the time but the dream was very vague and I didn't remember anythign of the dream the second I woke up.

>> No.23194798

>>23192506
>Origen and Augustine
Neither of them meaningfully contributed to the idea of free speech or free thought and Origen was literally condemned for heresy by the church both during his life and years later. A thousand years later and the Christian church was burning people at the stake for heresy. It wasn't until the Enlightenment atheists came along that the barbarous power of the church was put to bed and the just rule of the secular state came to supremacy, and it is this rule which allows you to have any interpretation of holy works that you please.

>> No.23195007

>>23190035
>The Torah through Nehemiah
I don't follow. What is the Nehemiah?
>(You activated THE LORD's trap engineer)
huh?
>are composed of multiple literary traditions. Genesis clearly reads as a slam compile of multiple prior texts each describable adequately as "A book."
I know that there are alternating stories of Genesis, and alternating stories of the flood. "2 of each animal" vs "7 of each animal," but are there more than two different texts in Genesis slammed together? What is the evidence of this, and which chapters/verses highlight this?
>Some of which are comprised of prior textual traditions. Everything through to Nehemiah is compiled from multiple literary traditions, and Chronicles and Kings reference each other and other non-surviving texts.
sauce?
>It is textual transmissions all the way down.
Wasn't it verbal transmission in the really early stages though?

>> No.23196092

>>23194798
There were no "enlightenment atheists"; even the most vicious anti-Christians of the enlightenment were all deists you brainwashed redditor.