/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.23145126]

Nietzscheans have never recovered.

[Anonymous No.23145130]

True. Was the clear headed version of NEETchay. Even mogged him at music.

[Anonymous No.23145132]

>>23145126
The ultimate cultural white chad. Western civilization declined since his peak.

[Anonymous No.23145328]

>>23145126
Nietzsche himself never recovered. Could only get out from under the man's shadow after he died, how pathetic is that?

[Anonymous No.23145515]

>>23145126
Oh, didn't he? Funny, the supposed Wagnerian shitposting on this board is a recent phenomena and always pales in the shadow of countless Nietzsche threads. Seems like you're coping and are still mad Nietzsche BTFO'd both Wagner and Schopenhauer and moved on.

[Anonymous No.23145691]

>>23145515
>moved on
Taking everything into consideration, I could never have survived my youth without Wagnerian music. For I was condemned to the society of Germans. If a man wish to get rid of a feeling of insufferable oppression, he has to take to hashish. Well, I had to take to Wagner. Wagner is the counter-poison to everything essentially German—the fact that he is a poison too, I do not deny. From the moment that Tristan was arranged for the piano—all honour to you, Herr von Bülow!—I was a Wagnerite. Wagner's previous works seemed beneath me—they were too commonplace, too "German." ... But to this day I am still seeking for a work which would be a match to Tristan in dangerous fascination, and possess the same gruesome and dulcet quality of infinity; I seek among all the arts in vain. All the quaint features of Leonardo da Vinci's work lose their charm at the sound of the first bar in Tristan. This work is without question Wagner's non plus ultra; after its creation, the composition of the Mastersingers and of the Ring was a relaxation to him. To become more healthy—this in a nature like Wagner's amounts to going backwards. The curiosity of the psychologist is so great in me, that I regard it as quite a special privilege to have lived at the right time, and to have lived precisely among Germans, in order to be ripe for this work. The world must indeed be empty for him who has never been unhealthy enough for this "infernal voluptuousness": it is allowable, it is even imperative, to employ a mystic formula for this purpose. I suppose I know better than any one the prodigious feats of which Wagner was capable, the fifty worlds of strange ecstasies to which no one else had wings to soar; and as I am alive to-day and strong enough to turn even the most suspicious and most dangerous things to my own advantage, and thus to grow stronger, I declare Wagner to have been the greatest benefactor of my life. The bond which unites us is the fact that we have suffered greater agony, even at each other's hands, than most men are able to bear nowadays, and this will always keep our names associated in the minds of men. For, just as Wagner is merely a misunderstanding among Germans, so, in truth, am I, and ever will be. Ye lack two centuries of psychological and artistic discipline, my dear countrymen!... But ye can never recover the time lost.

[Anonymous No.23145710]

>>23145691
>>23145515
such a classic, Nietzscheans always like to say how Nietzsche "btfo" Wagner (which he never actually did), but always forget his praise for him.

[Anonymous No.23145921]

>>23145130
that pic is every neech poster on /lit/, no cap

[Anonymous No.23146013]

>>23145710
>but always forget his praise for him.
Preface to Richard Wagner addresses this, why do people like you pretend Nietzsche's early admiration for Wagner is some kind of gotcha? It isn't.

[Anonymous No.23146986]

>>23145126
What is up with his eye?

[Anonymous No.23146996]

>>23145126
How do I go about enjoying Wagner? Can I listen to the music on its own or do I have to watch the performance as well? Do I need to read translations, whether subtitles or text, while doing so?

[Anonymous No.23147004]

>>23146996
Listen to the overtures, then watch a full performance of the ones you liked the most (or read while listening, it depends on how good your imagination is). Translations are necessary for Wagner, since you need to understand the dialogue to fully appreciate what he's doing, it's not just about enjoyment of the music. But start with the overtures, I'd recommend Lohengrin and Tanhauser to start, but it's really down to personal taste.

[Anonymous No.23147018]

>>23147004
Thank you. I love classical, having gotten into it several years ago in my adulthood, but opera is a genre/form I have yet to try and tackle outside of some of Stravinsky's (some of which are ballets, now that I think about it). I have desperately desired to, though, especially with Wagner, just never knew how to go about it.

[Anonymous No.23147028]

>>23147004
Bullshit.

>>23146996
Listen to the full operas on spotify with just the sound. The plays are extremely overrated.

>>23147018
Don't listen to him.

[Anonymous No.23147033]

>>23147004
The truth is in the music. The story conceals the true pain and the true life lesson.

In other words the music lies less than Wagner's grandiose stories.

[Anonymous No.23147051]

>>23145126
Man, Wagner really is the weirdest looking composer. His looks are almost as enigmatic as his music. What the fuck is that neckbeard?

[Anonymous No.23147057]

>>23147028
>>23147033
I'm fine with just listening for the art of music but, and again I could be mistaken, from what I've read of Wagner (especially as it relates to OP, N. contra Wagner) it seems the moral philosophy, tragic themes, and dramatic content are fundamental aspects of his works, no? That I'd be missing an essential side of the artwork by only listening for the enjoyment of musical form? Again though I'm a novice here so I could be wrong.

[Anonymous No.23147065]

>>23147018
Happy to help. You should keep in mind though that Wagner's operas are very different from most others, he explicitly does his own thing blending both the narrative and music together into a "music-drama" (as he put it) so don't expect the same thing from other operas. But Wagner is excellent.

>>23147033
Even if that were true, I still think the stories are worth listening to/understanding. The overtures and some of the finales contain the essence of the whole thing anyway.

[Anonymous No.23147069]

>>23147057
Don't listen to them. You're right, and everything is important in Wagner. He though of himself as a composer, playwright, and poet in equal parts. Sadly, most stagings are far from perfect because no director has ever followed his instructions precisely. It's fine to start off listening to overtures and stuff, but eventually you should take a look, they're operas after all.

[Anonymous No.23147076]

>>23145126
This board is so fucking stupid and shit. Every thread is either this half baked contrarian bait or the most pseudo-intellectual debate about nothing ever. You are all gay retards.

[Anonymous No.23147082]

>>23147057
>>23147065
>>23147069
Meistersinger is the only one with a sense of reality. It does enhance the music and has genuine feeling.

The others are basically the same story over and over and a self aggrandizement of Wagner. The music too but like I said; it lies less.

[Anonymous No.23147084]

>>23147076
Thankfully, we were graced by your superiority. Thank you for enlightening us with your high quality post.

[Anonymous No.23147089]

>>23147082
>The others are basically the same story over and over
Huh? The Ring and Tristan are like night and day, narrative-wise.

[Anonymous No.23147101]

>>23147076
>>23147084
Nietzsche critiques of Wagner are genuine or almost.

>>23147089
No. It's the same thing. It's about redemption through love. But the thing is Wagner can never love himself and thinks that love should come from the outside.

[Anonymous No.23147120]

>Nietzsche fucking loves Wagner
>Wagner doesn't cares at all by that fucking pole retard
>Somehow, the horsefucker beat Wagner at anything
Does this board even read?

[Anonymous No.23147123]

>>23147101
Ring cycle doesn‘t even really use the redemption through love theme. Its primary lovers are beset by overbearing social circumstances and deception which lead to a death and rebirth of the world at large.

[Anonymous No.23147129]

>>23147101
>No. It's the same thing. It's about redemption through love.
That, and a hundred other things that happen before, especially in The Ring, and the way you get to this conclusion is vastly different in both works. So no, not really "the same thing".

[Anonymous No.23147133]

>>23147123
That's because he's fucking stupid. Death and rebirth happen within; it's the toxic people you leave behind. Nietzsche almost understood this.

>>23147129
He fails both times.

[Anonymous No.23147142]

>>23147133
>He fails both times.
He fails what exactly? You fail at explaining how it's "the same story over and over again".

[Anonymous No.23147151]

>>23147142
Redemption. He fails at redeeming himself because he can't love himself.

>>23147142
>the same story over and over again
It is. From his very first opera.

[Anonymous No.23147189]

>>23147151
>He fails at redeeming himself because he can't love himself.
Proofs? Wagner was happily married to Cosima with a big family and lots of friends (even if he did divorce his first wife). Sounds like major projection on Nietzsche's part.

[Anonymous No.23147214]

>>23147189
My goodness are you ignorant. Read his letters, he had suicidal thoughts all his life.

He had a horrible life.

[Anonymous No.23147241]

>>23147189
>>23147214
He also threatened to kill Minna Planer. He was seriously deranged.

[Anonymous No.23147275]

>>23147241
Justified, she was a bitch.

[Anonymous No.23147304]

>>23147275
Aren't they all. You still don't threaten to kill them.

Wagner could never survive today. He'd be in jail.

[Anonymous No.23147316]

>>23147241
>>23147304
I have never heard any suggestion of this in anything that I've read from or about him, and since I'm not wagneranon I will have to be furnished better proof than some other anons word. So please, provide some excerpts.

[Anonymous No.23147329]

>>23147316
"This girl would no longer be touched in her heart—only by a sharp knife."

She was a cold hearted bitch, but Wagner too.

[Anonymous No.23147346]

>>23147304
Spirit too strong for the gay 21st century

[Anonymous No.23147356]

>>23147346
Too weak. Today's BPD bitches would eat him alive.

[Anonymous No.23147382]

>>23147356
>strength is being an entitled hole

Tits or gtfo

[Anonymous No.23147388]

>>23147382
Strength is having the support of the system.

[Anonymous No.23147668]

>>23146013
>early admiration
Once again proving Nietzscheans don't read Nietzsche. His praise for Wagner is evident at the end of his life.

[Anonymous No.23147686]

>>23147668
He says his ability to express his emotions is admirable but that he's stupid.

[Anonymous No.23147690]

>>23147686
Which is very true. Nietzsche got a lot right.

[Anonymous No.23147775]

>>23147101
>It's about redemption through love.
Cliched statement, has almost no meaning now, was only popularised because it was falsely conflated with a prosaic 19th century-romantic notion of love, and thus seemed to offer something to the common person. The significance of 'love' in Wagner is philosophically highly complex, but how many of middling intelligence now believe they understand Wagner in toto just because they think 'it's about redemption through love'--without, of course, actually explaining to themselves what that could possibly mean. With Wagner it seems people lose their basic criteria for the authentic judgement of art very quickly, and instead of looking at the artwork itself, they look to popular cliches.

>Wagner can never love himself and thinks that love should come from the outside
If you think the Ring cycle should be a sappy moral tale about learning to love yourself then maybe you should stick to anime.

>>23147133
>toxic people you leave behind
Please kill yourself you retard. Does your entire intellectual life revolve around self-help manuals?

[Anonymous No.23147779]

>>23147214
EARLY in his life. Before he read Schopenhauer, met Cosima and settled into a cosy family life and successful artistic career with the funding of King Ludwig.

[Anonymous No.23147814]

>>23147028
>>23147033
So tired of people getting filtered by Wagnerian drama. The music and drama are one and the same. If you didn't understand one, then in all likelihood you didn't understand the other.

[Anonymous No.23147833]

Enoch Powell on his love for Wagner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUMdhTJ6zfk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzWHsmEkbfI

[Anonymous No.23148024]

>>23147814
>"This girl would no longer be touched in her heart—only by a sharp knife."
That's you you old cunt. Wagner was a good musician and a horrible poet.

[Anonymous No.23148029]

>>23147779
All his life.

[Anonymous No.23148031]

>>23147775
Problems are always more internal and Wagner could only externalize. He was too narcissistic to admit it too - that's why he glorifies stupidity with Siegfried.

[Anonymous No.23148213]

>>23148024
>>23148031
Where are these resentful dwarfs coming from? What holes, from dusty Nibelheim, do they scurry out of? Alas, the age old insecurity drives them out. Some people just feel inferior when faced with genius. On the one hand someone smearing Wagner's personality in a desperate attempt to dim his art, the other spitefully insulting heroism as if to justify his meagre intelligence. Used so many times they have lost their effect. What of Baudelaire and Hauptmann and Eliot's praise for Wagner's poetry, and countless other cultural luminaries? And what of the late Wagner's embrace of a mysticism of the inner life: 'The mystic is the man for me…the man who feels the urge to ignite for himself the inner light in contrast to the outer brightness which shows him nothing'? Of course, no reply can be given. Because these criticisms are not driven by reason, but resentment.

[Anonymous No.23148219]

>>23148213
They are purely logical facts. Wagner killed Germany.

[Anonymous No.23148240]

>>23148029
He had paroxysms of depression (and every other emotion) all his life, sure. But unlike his younger self the result was not storm and stress, but resignation and transcendence. He even said the reason Liszt was depressed in his old age was because he didn't look forward to death, as a mystical revelation, as he himself did.

[Anonymous No.23148615]

>>23148240
He was intolerable.

[Anonymous No.23148629]

>>23148615
You mad

[Anonymous No.23148632]

>>23145126
Who the fuck is even this faggot?

[Anonymous No.23148635]

>>23148632
Turn on your monitor.

[Anonymous No.23148636]

>>23148635
I literally never seen this dude in my life.

[Anonymous No.23148637]

>>23147033
This is true for music in general and is why I prefer listening to either instrumental or, in rarer cases, music in languages I don't understand.

[Anonymous No.23148816]

What is it about Wagner that causes such seething on this board? I really don't understand.

[Anonymous No.23148833]

>>23148636
You've never seen him, but you have heard him.

[Anonymous No.23148837]

>>23148816
I'm not seeing it either it.

[Anonymous No.23148853]

>>23148816
He's the most controversial artist of all time. It's not something unique to this board, a certain type of person just turns crazy whenever he's discussed.

[Anonymous No.23148876]

>>23147686
Quite literally not what Nietzsche said. Have you even read Ecce Homo or any of his letters? In BG&E he praises the character of Siegfried.

[Anonymous No.23148878]

>>23148853
kindly elaborate, I'm genuinely curious. What's so controversial about him?

[Anonymous No.23148885]

>>23148878
Hitler liked him.

[Anonymous No.23148932]

>>23148885
That's just another excuse. Wagner has been almost as controversial as he is now since his own day. There was the dispute with the musical conservatives, the dispute with the Jews, with the French, with newspapers, with academia, with Nietzsche, and then it gained a new life post-Hitler, and then the Russian militia naming itself after him hasn't done him any favours either. Almost everyone in modern history has framed themselves either for or against Wagner in ideological, moral, artistic or political terms. There's no logic for why Wagner should be so controversial across so many fields, he just is. And people will continue to find new ways to somehow blame him and new things to blame him for.

[Anonymous No.23149027]

>>23145126
Can't have your atavistic German paganism and your vanilla churchianity too.

[Anonymous No.23149272]

>>23145126
Very true

[Anonymous No.23150296]

>>23149272
It's funny how much Wagner made Nietzsche (and by extension, Nietzscheans) seethe.

[Anonymous No.23150760]

>>23149027
Yes you can