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/lit/ - Literature

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23134616 No.23134616 [Reply] [Original]

odyssey -> iliad -> bible -> aeneid -> divine comedy -> complete works of shakespeare -> paradise lost -> moby-dick -> ulysses
is this correct for the bare essentials of literature (in order)?

>> No.23134629

>>23134616
Shakespeare has like 4 truly great works in total. Don’t read the whole thing. Iliad comes before Odyssey.

>> No.23134630

>>23134616
odyssey before iliad?

>> No.23134633

>>23134616
iliad, odyssey, quixote, later shakespeare.

>> No.23134635

>>23134616
Iliad odyssey plato aeneid Bible divine comedy Shakespeare

>> No.23134638

I'd read only ulysses and shakespeare out of that bunch. I remember trying to read odyssey it's was so boring. outdated and wordy. it's not that I can't read long books I've read brothers karamazov. I these books are overrated because of the historical context.

>> No.23134648

>>23134638
odyssey isn't boring though, it's like a fun adventure novel. little children like the odyssey.

>> No.23134649

>>23134616
>>23134629
aeneid is skippable. only do his major half.

paradise lost is skippable. moby dick and ulysses should be swapped for the brothers karamazov (or war and peace, but tolstoy is arguably too close in themes to shakespeare, while tbk gives a new layer of spiritual depth).

>> No.23134652

>>23134633
why is don quixote considered core, especially when few read its second half?

>> No.23134655

>>23134648
oh, then was it the iliad then? I got them both and just could not read it and gave it away.

also little children's tastes are different, they like long cartoon movies too, I would be bored to sit through such a film.

>> No.23134673

>>23134616
Nope, you need the Epic of Gilgamesh first

>> No.23134680

>>23134655
more likely the iliad

if the public goes out of its way to lose its childhood faculties, if it pretends to be an incredulous grown-up unable to slip into that sphere where the unreal becomes matter-of-fact, if it insists on hardening itself against the euphoria it is being offered then there’s nothing optimistic i could say about the future of literature

>> No.23134691

>>23134652
because it is very good

>> No.23134697

>>23134652
The second half is the best part and the one that’s most innovative. DQ is the first modern European novel.

>> No.23134700

>>23134680
I think you are too strict in your judgement. it's not like I don't enjoy fiction, I like fantastic and weird fiction too. point I was trying to make is I think that some books that people assume to be timeless are also prone to being outdated.

>> No.23134703

>>23134638
>>23134655
what translation/publisher? I have the translations by Anthony Verity and they’re good.

>> No.23134707

>>23134700
I don’t think art can be outdated. You either like it or you don’t.

>> No.23134711

>>23134691
Good how? It uses the novel form but plays second fiddle to Shakespeare due to its lower depth.

>>23134697
>The second half is the best part
No it's not and Cervantes' effort was falling apart, some sentences aren't even polished. >and the one that’s most innovative.
It isn't, it's a dull repeat of the first half. Which is why no one talks about scenes from the second half.

>> No.23134712

>>23134629
>Shakespeare has like 4 truly great works in total.
Have you really read all of his 38 plays?

>> No.23134715

>>23134712
Yes

>> No.23134720

>>23134711
Filtered

>> No.23134721

>>23134712
>>23134715
Lmao trick question.

And he most certainly has more than 4 truly great plays. Time to rape anon raw for terrible opinions.

>> No.23134722

>>23134703
I am ESL, did not read them in English. but I bought one that people told me was a good edition. but you are right in asking me the translation, many times I have witnessed they ruined good books.

maybe I should try to read them in English again some time.

>>23134707
there must be art that you used to like and no longer do, no?

>> No.23134726

>>23134720
I accept your concession.

No rebuttal, and you haven't even read DQ.

>> No.23134734

>>23134700
to unhistorically-minded readers. even children can feel at home in a mid-sixteenth-century english castle, or a bronze age galley, or late-eighteenth-century dublin thieves' kitchen

>> No.23134741

>>23134726
Retarded opinions are not worthy of elaboration.

>> No.23134745

>>23134721
> And he most certainly has more than 4 truly great plays
No, he doesn’t unless you overrate certain plays. I’m using the term “truly great” seriously.

>> No.23134747

>>23134711
>Good how?
it stands out as a powerful story, a character deeply seen into and judged with scrupulous fairness, all done with triumphant narrative skill, a wonderful eye and ear and unfailing humour. if some of these qualities have a familiar ring to them it is not because they are two a penny in the novels of its time or any other.

>> No.23134771

>>23134745
pick an arbritary figure. 12. name 12 plays which could be called great. of that 12 at least 9, which is another arbitrary figure, are by shakespeare. that leaves 3 on our list, for all the other writers who ever lived. raise it to 5 you can't go higher than that, and shakespeare remains immortally number 1. among all dramatists the first, the greatest poet, in terms of sheer accomplishment, very possibly our greatest man.

>> No.23134783

>>23134741
And that's why you didn't elaborate on your own.

>>23134747
You're right.

Thank you for elaborating on your intelligent opinion.

Its humor has lasted the centuries where something is lost in the orthodoxy to retain Shakespeare's archaisms, or the not very good humor in Ulysses. And it is a successful novel which ranks near Shakespeare, so it as a fiction is distinguished. Tolstoy may arguably be appended to these ranks, but Dostoevsky is comparatively more necessary as a development.

>> No.23134789

>>23134771
> the greatest poet
Not even top 5. And the complete works of Shakespeare are not bare essentials for literature. 2-4 plays is what’s fair.

>> No.23134792

>>23134616
Don't get cocky, kid

>> No.23134798

>>23134792
It’s the mulatto Angloid from the other threads The British school system was a mistake.

>> No.23134803

>>23134789
does anyone who speaks like this have any real feeling for art

>> No.23134811

>>23134803
Bardolatry is cancer.

>> No.23134827

>>23134803
And he still hasn't specified which plays. The essentials for literature's great themes that Shakespeare produced post-medieval age would require at least 7, and it's really higher.

>> No.23134847

Plays are not even literature

>> No.23134873

>>23134789
Talking about numbers of great plays with Shakespeare is weird because of H4. Are you counting it as two or one? Anyway the true indisputables are H4, Hamlet, Lear, MND and JC so that's already more than four, and you could make convincing cases for quite a few others. I agree that calling the complete works essential is highly excessive though.
Also for the love of god please nobody respond to post number 23134847, I cannot think of anything more mind-numbingly dull than that kind of debate.

>> No.23134923

>>23134616
I would maybe put canterbury tales in there

>> No.23134947

>>23134873
>I cannot think of anything more mind-numbingly dull than that kind of debate
cosign

>> No.23134955

>>23134923
Decameron is better

>> No.23134974

>>23134629
...And all of them are The Henriad.

>> No.23135003

>>23134873
>MND and JC
reddit choices

>> No.23135006

>>23134947
Plays are still not literature, thoughbeit.

>> No.23135010

>>23134873
>Also for the love of god please nobody respond to post number 23134847, I cannot think of anything more mind-numbingly dull than that kind of debate.
i wasnt going to ive already blocked it because its a bot post only npcs answer

>> No.23135050

I have found the Achilles’ heel.

>> No.23135059

>>23134616
Isn't Paradise Lost heretic?
Paradise Lost and Ulysses should be replaced by War and Peace and Brothers Karamazov.

>> No.23135065

>>23135059
i mean so is divine comedy

>> No.23135069

>>23135003
What does that even mean in this context? I'm absolutely fascinated to know how your mind works, please elaborate.

>> No.23135075

lit newfag here, I started with blood meridian but have not enjoyed it much. Should I try Iliad and Odyssey next?

>> No.23135078

>>23135065
What?
The Divine Comedy seems OK. Of course it is not a theological work, but it is not bad.
Dante was a good Catholic boy.

>> No.23135082

>>23135075
Literally any other book mentioned ITT is better than Blood Redditian

>> No.23135084

>>23135069
why do you think theyre essential

>> No.23135089

>>23134616
Add Don Quixote, either Boccaccio or Chaucer, the Gilgamesh fragments or Arabian Nights if you'd like, and perhaps Beowulf. Either War and Peace or Anna K.
>>23135078
nta but Dante was choosing to play with fire and got excommunicated. If you read the Ulysses canto and some of his thoughts as he encounters the prideful in Purgatorio he's reckoning with his own arrogance at writing poetry about things so far beyond mankind

>> No.23135095

>>23134616
> complete works of shakespeare -> paradise lost -> moby-dick -> ulysses
Might as well add the entire Burger King menu.

>> No.23135097

>>23135089
Also I prefer the Metamorphoses/Ovid (Tristia, etc.) over the Aeneid but your list skews towards epics and emblems of national traditions.

>> No.23135101

>>23134745
Hamlet, Tempest, Othello, Julius Caesar, Midsummer Night's Dream, Macbeth, King Lear, Henriad plays, there's 10.

>> No.23135108

>>23135089
>Don Quixote, ... the Gilgamesh fragments
These are good additions, DQ for the novel form, Gilgamesh as a focused heroic story (Homer is wider) setting literature's great basic themes.

>Boccaccio or Chaucer
Themes covered by Shakespeare. Good but not as a bare essential.
>Arabian Nights
Interesting but covered by the Odyssey
>Beowulf
Covered by Gilgamesh

>Either War and Peace or Anna K.
No, if you add DQ and Shakespeare, you already have essentials of literature that Tolstoy made contributions for but is redundant to.

>> No.23135115

>>23135108
What do you even mean by essential? If you’re this reductive you might as well not read at all and just watch YouTube summaries.

>> No.23135118

>>23135082
>Blood Redditian
But it was recommended to me by /lit/...

>> No.23135121
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23135121

>>23135108
I'm a sucker for picaresque fiction I suppose. Ha
Might as well have thrown Rabelais on. I do think at least one of the decameron/canterbury/arabian nights would be good to have because of the frame structure. I've never been partial to Beowulf amongst the heroic stories so no disagreement there. Someone who has read the russians in russian might have a more substantial rebuttal to you than I do

>> No.23135128

>>23135121
What is this meme referencing?

>> No.23135131

>>23135101
Plays like Othello or Julius Caesar can’t seriously compete against Iliad or the Divine Comedy. It’s the cheerleader effect but a bunch of plays instead of girls. They’re good, but not truly great.

>> No.23135137

>>23135118
We have reddit tourists who fanatically defend that book.

>> No.23135138
File: 306 KB, 1200x1505, dv.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
23135138

>>23135128
I normally loathe spoonfeeding but the divine comedy is my favorite work of literature with some of the finest legitimate artwork and memes in all of the canon so here. Bouguereau mid 19th century.

>> No.23135145

>>23134616
>bare essentials
Just the Bible

>> No.23135147

>>23135089
Oh yeah for sure it was definitely for purely philosophical reasons that Dante was excommunicated. Nothing to do with him absolutely tearing into the pope.

>>23135084
They epitomize particular categories, MND for comedy and JC for classical/political tragedy.

>> No.23135153

>>23135138
Thanks
>the divine comedy
Would you recommend it for a /lit/ beginner?

>> No.23135161

>>23135121
>Someone who has read the russians in russian might have a more substantial rebuttal to you than I do
I don't think the Russians other than Dosto add something truly new and essential to literature, at least as a bare essential list like OP is going for. DQ is already in high literary style, and Shakespeare already has Tolstoyan depth. If Tolstoy is to be added, as you said, someone has to point out why.

>> No.23135166

>>23135137
Must be a lot of tourists here considering it's near the top of all the top 100 lists in the sticky

>> No.23135174

>>23135161
Shakespeare wrote plays, that is, not literature.
Tolstoy produced actual literature. If you’re making a list of cinema essentials, you don’t add Archie comics.

>> No.23135194

Faust?

>> No.23135199

>>23135153
Read the big books that came before it first, including Homer (dante didn't read him but w/e), Virgil, Ovid, the bible, and the Vita Nuova. You want a solid background and an edition with good notes. The Hollander translation has the Italian on the facing page and I was generally impressed with their glosses.
>>23135147
just a little Florentine prank bro just guys being dudes

>> No.23135201

23135174
this guy is DYING to talk about semantics

>> No.23135216

>>23135194
what does faust add that other great literature doesnt?

the answer is nothing tb h

>> No.23135231

>>23135216
He improved Shakespeare’s and Moliere’s approach at playwriting and transformed it into proper literature. If you must include a play as essential it must be Faust.

>> No.23135357

>>23135231
oh youre the retard, bye. opinion discarded.

>> No.23135428

>>23135131
I gave you 10 because you said there weren't even five. Take those away and there are still 8.

>> No.23135474

>>23135357
take your meds

>> No.23135489

>>23134616
Hesiod first, then the Iliad, then the odyssey, then herodotus, then Sophocles, Aeschylus, and Euripides, the aeneid, THE METAMORPHOSES YOU FUCKING RETARD, the bible, the gospel of Nicodemus (extremely important don't question me on this you pleb), cynewulf, the romances, then piers plowman, Chaucer, and the mystery plays, then on to Marlowe, Spenser, and shakespeare, then paradise lost.

>> No.23135490

>>23135095
Fucking kek

>> No.23135514

>>23135489
depressing

>extremely important
importance isn't important

>> No.23135559

>>23135489
>THE METAMORPHOSES YOU FUCKING RETARD
Is it really important enough to merit this reaction?
>the romances
All of them? Every romance written in the medieval era, regardless of quality?

>> No.23135566

>>23134649
kill yourself

>> No.23135578

>>23135559
> Is it really important enough to merit this reaction?
It’s more important than Paradise lost and 95% of Shakespeare

>> No.23135581

>>23135559
>Is it really important enough to merit this reaction?
Yes.
>all of them
You should gain a familiarity with the genre.

>> No.23135610

>>23135581
>>23135578
I just get the sense that it is, and was basically always considered, a relatively "light" work that doesn't really belong in the category OP is asking about. Same goes for things like Spenser and Chaucer - they're great and immensely enjoyable to read but they aren't necessary to an understanding of The Big Important Books Of All Time.
>You should gain a familiarity with the genre.
Fine, just seems lazy to recommend an obscure genre without giving examples although I guess Chaucer's would be the obvious ones (since you seem to be focused on English, the real meat of the genre is of course in French and to a lesser extent German). And what I said above applies severalfold here, even to the most important romances.
Your list is great for a certain stream running alongside the central canon, it's just a different sort of sensibility.

>> No.23135617

>>23135610
> they're great and immensely enjoyable to read but they aren't necessary to an understanding of The Big Important Books Of All Time.
In that case you just need Homer and the Bible. All the rest is superfluous

>> No.23135629

>>23135617
I'd say Homer, Shakespeare, and maybe Dante, but I agree the list could be pared down. I just think you're more interested in promoting your own taste than actually providing the sort of thing OP is looking for.

>> No.23135633
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23135633

>>23134616
As far as pure fiction/storytelling goes this is not bad. Youve nailed all the epics, at least.

I'm struggling of anything to fit in that wouldn't just be increasing specialization. Like, there's something that tells me there ought to be something between Paradise Lost and Moby-Dick, but I can't think what it would be.

I also feel like something should be after Ulysses, just to close out the 20th Century. Maybe Blood Meridian?

>> No.23135638

>>23135629
I think OP’s premise is flawed. Essential to whom or under what metrics? God only knows

>> No.23135653

>>23134616
This is correct but switch Iliad and Odyssey. Just add Don Quixote before the complete works of Shakespeare.

>> No.23135661

>>23135610
>I just get the sense that it is, and was basically always considered, a relatively "light" work that doesn't really belong in the category OP is asking about.
It is one of the most influential literary works ever.
>obscure genre
Honestly I was assuming from the way that anon went straight from the classics to exclusively English language works he actually wants a history of ENGLISH literature and not a general one (hence me stressing the gospel of nicodemus and mystery plays since the English harrowing tradition is particularly strong although you should read nicodemus as it is the reason that inferno exists) This of course would shape the romance recommendations. Degare, guy of warwick, gawain and the green knight, malory, chretien, wolfram Von eschenbach, Marie de france, absolutely mind boggling that you would suggest these are obscure.

>> No.23135671

>>23135633
shit opinions

>> No.23135681

>>23135095
ikr

>> No.23135699

>>23135633
>I also feel like something should be after Ulysses, just to close out the 20th Century. Maybe Blood Meridian?
house of leaves

>> No.23135701

>>23135638
It's certainly not an unprecedented enterprise, plenty of effort has gone into doing this sort of thing over the years. The core quality of importance is sublime humanity. And to be fair that obviously exists in the Bible as well, it's just such a weird heterogeneous case that it's hard to make any kind of statement about it unequivocally.

>>23135653
>It is one of the most influential literary works ever.
Sure, but its influence is primarily felt in other lighter works.
>he actually wants a history
He doesn't want a history of anything, he wants a list of essentials.
>absolutely mind boggling that you would suggest these are obscure.
OP is obviously new. They're extremely obscure relative to the very shallow depth of knowledge implied by his post.

>>23135699
heh, got his ass

>> No.23135715

>>23135701
> It's certainly not an unprecedented enterprise, plenty of effort has gone into doing this sort of thing over the years
He doesn’t want a canon. He wants the bare essentials. That’s Homer and the Bible. They are the most influential works.

>> No.23135719

>>23135653
>>23134633

>> No.23136181

>>23135581
>You should gain a familiarity with the genre.
what is meant by 'the romances'. where to start?

>> No.23136451

>>23135715
There is room for a middle ground between this and >>23135489's list, as evidenced by the existence of the original post of this thread.

>> No.23136453

>>23136451
OK

>> No.23137950

>>23134630
reduces the amount of people getting filtered