/clg/ - Classical Languages General

[Anonymous No.22979449]

困而不學 edition

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>22957098

NOTE: replace ' dot ' with an actual dot to access the links below
>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

Feel free to write your thoughts/stories/etc... in your target language.

>Work in progress FAQ
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko
You are very welcome to suggest additions/changes/etc... especially for other classical languages

[Anonymous No.22979462]

Can we not shit this thread up with a bunch of discord trannies larping as pseud weebs pretending to learn Classical Chinese?

[Anonymous No.22979472]

>>22979462
You seem stressed out, perhaps learning the ways of ancient Chinese wisdom would help to calm you down.

[Anonymous No.22979473]

>>22979462
fuck off, sinanons are well behaved unlike some of you schizos

[Anonymous No.22979475]

>>22979462
>weeb
>chinese

[Anonymous No.22979479]

>>22979462
困而不學,民斯為下矣。

[Anonymous No.22979480]

>>22979449
>困而不學
I may be retarded but still I learn.

[Anonymous No.22979501]

人之初
性本善
性相近
習相遠
Is there anywhere I could get a nice poster of this with a translation? I want to hang it in my office

[Anonymous No.22979528]

>>22979501
How long did it take you to learn Chinese?

[Anonymous No.22979533]

>>22979528
I'll let you know when I can read, anon. I just started and like that poem. It seems powerful and true and different from what we grow up being told

[Anonymous No.22979642]

i liek lerning Grink an d.. L.at..in....

[Anonymous No.22979802]

So I tried using Duoloingo, LLPSI, and Wheelock's Latin.
>Duolingo is so gamified it barely feels like you're learning until you reach the units that require you to recognize and determine cases. You kind of just get blindsided by it since they haven't been preparing you for it hardly at all. They also don't let you access some of the necessary grammar explanations on the mobile app while making them available in the browser version.
>LLPSI feels more steadily rewarding since it's basically an inductive reasoning exercise in book form, but I can imagine the "high" of reading things you weren't sure you could read is going to quickly wear off after awhile. It says a lot about the Cambridge latin course that someone I know who'd taken two years of that course in high school was incapable of reading the Latin in the later chapters.
>Wheelock's feels like a real school textbook and makes you flip back and forth between pages repeatedly to translate sentences properly, but I can see how this approach would be flawed without buying the workbook and Latin reader to go along with the textbook itself. Translating individual sentences can only get you so far. You need input. Duolingo gives you more input than Wheelock's does without the accompanying reader.

so basically use them all, it'll probably be good for your brain to get pulled in that many directions

[Anonymous No.22979881]

>>22979802
Use them all but duolingo Let's be honest anon, it is a waste of time

[Anonymous No.22979919]

>>22979528
Sinoanon here. Less than a year for Mandarin—maybe like ten months—but am a native Japanese speaker. Took psycho-level obsession at first but got exponentially easier. Full vernacular Mandarin is pretty straightforward.
It's hard to put a timeframe on Classical Chinese because the ambiguities remain there forever.
The median for most Westerners I worked with in China w/o Asian language backgrounds seemed to be two and a half years. This is for decent written and spoken Chinese. I know white Westerners who are illiterate in Vernacular Mandarin and achieved spoken fluency as fast as or faster than me, and I know people who know Classical Chinese but no modern Chinese who manage it like any other classical language.
I always recommend Victor Mair on the subject. He gets his students at UPenn often from zero to decent reading competency in about a year.
https://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=42963

[Anonymous No.22979924]

>>22979802
Duolingo is pretty bad.

>>22979501
Calligraphic renderings are available everywhere. You could just take one and slap some English beside it.

[Anonymous No.22979954]

>>22979881
>>22979924
Duolingo is about as useful as the workbooks that come with LLSPI and Wheelock's. It's not nearly as useful as the main textbooks. It's a supplemental. Duolingo would benefit heavily from a reader mode with grammatical tips and reminders sprinkled throughout and a more lengthy multi-sentence translation mode. It would also benefit from using actual quotations from famous Latin texts and not just relying on sentences telling you about a man's daughters buying cookies from a market in New York. Those additions don't go well with gamification though, so they'll likely never be included.

I need to try Gwynne's and Henle's next to see how they compare.

[Anonymous No.22979965]

>>22979802
>>Cambridge latin course...incapable of reading the Latin in the later chapters.
>>LLPSI feels more steadily rewarding
>>Wheelock's has you flipping back and forth

It seems like only LLPSI with the pensum and supplemental work book gives you enough practice to have any hope of learning and "acquiring" Latin. Not learning the macrons feels especially frustrating, so I don't move to the next chapter until I've memorized them all. My current formula:

LLPSI + workbook + teacher's guide + LLPSI Companion (pic related) + a good anki deck (by LLPSI chapter)

workbook - ISBN# 978-1585102129
LLPSI companion - ISB# 978-1585108091
anki deck - https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/1043299987

[Anonymous No.22979996]

I find the LLPSI supplements to be some of the best parts of the series. Fabellae Latinae and Amphitryo and all that.

[Anonymous No.22980249]

>>22979965
>It seems like
the important thing is to formulate a strong opinion and rigidly adhere to it as a beginner with little to no experience

[Anonymous No.22980284]

Sacculus meus vacuus est

[Anonymous No.22980399]

When I try to go to Sinanon's infographic, it tells me I don't have authorization. Anyone else have this problem?

[Anonymous No.22980437]

>>22980399
reloading it works
but I may very well switch to some other image hosting site other than imgur, I thought when I first saw this problem that it was just temporary

[Anonymous No.22980457]

>>22978111
im a beginner so im going to try parse your post without looking anything up. I appreciate any corrections or help.

for? this brings many with? Roman(is this supposed to be a language? ie Latin? not sure what ist suffix means) and Greek? to converse with each other and the (work in?, working?) language with the (don't know these two words). the many? to not suspect us? being not of (don't know this word) to the many languages.

As you can see i don't get it, despite (likely incorrectly) recognizing many of the words. How do i get better at parsing bros.

[Anonymous No.22980464]

>>22979462
based get these chinks outta here

[Anonymous No.22980493]

>>22979679
What do you guys think about my little paragraph?

[Anonymous No.22980496]

>>22979462
I'll second this emotion.

It's okay but can we see other stuff??

[Anonymous No.22980501]

>>22980437
Thanks, this is great

[Anonymous No.22980507]

>>22980496
>can we see other stuff??
MAKE the other stuff, you drooling retard. You're not watching a movie here, you're watching the classical languages thread. If you want other stuff then merely post in or about another classical language.

[Anonymous No.22980508]

>>22980457
διὰ + acc. = for/on account of
διὰ τοῦτο = for this (reason) / on account of this
συμφέρει = it helps

Ῥωμαϊστὶ καὶ Ἑλληνιστὶ : the -ιστὶ is a regular adverb-forming ending meaning broadly "in the X way" with X whatever it's in front
just like in Latin, Greek uses an adverb to express the language being spoken, literally "to speak Latinly/Greekly"
ἀσκεῖν = practice/train
μεθερμένευσις = translating
ἐνεργός = active/operative(i.e unlike passive, like reading only)
μὴ ὑποπτεύσωσιν = lest (+ subj.) they suspect
οἱ πολλοὶ = normies / average people
κεκασμένους = this is mostly Homeric, meaning expert in + dat. of what, in this case old languages πάλαι(adv.) γλώσσαις

[Anonymous No.22980522]

>>22980507
>classical languages thread
You mean classical Chinese thread. You know God damned well you're going to bitch and whine about a real classical general thread if I make one rn.

[Anonymous No.22980523]

>>22980496
there's no magic force field made in China stopping anons from posting about other classical languages as you can see above, idk wtf is your(pl.) problem
most of OPs are about Greek and Latin related figures/things usually and (rightfully) nobody complains because those are going to be the most commonly learned so it's not like we have CC related OPs often

[Anonymous No.22980529]

>>22980508
Thank fuck you're here I actually need to know this stuff.

>>22980523
Fuk u motherfuk

[Anonymous No.22980536]

Classical = Latin, Greek, Sanskrit, Chinese + affiliates (Coptic, Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, etc.)

I don't see a problem

[Anonymous No.22980547]

>>22980536
You just posted the order of based to cringe and then in parentheses posted cringe to based.

[Anonymous No.22980564]

>>22980536
>no ANE cuneiform
>no hieroglyphics
are they just too old?

[Anonymous No.22980574]

>>22980529
It's always the first-years with the strong opinions, isn't it?

[Anonymous No.22980582]

>>22980496
Okay. What would you like to discuss? Post about it.

[Anonymous No.22980599]

>>22979462
Not a Chinese learning anon, but I don't really see a problem since this thread is for all classical languages. Unless you're racially motivated like >>22980464 Which is pretty stupid.

[Anonymous No.22980610]

Remember to memorize your poem of the day, regardless of what language you're studying.

[Anonymous No.22980637]

>>22980599
>complaining about racism
>4chan
note that pre-chink invasion this general had no problem with slurs and banter but as soon as CC anons showed up the crying about muh racism commenced
I don't even have a problem with CC here, just grow thicker skin and stop whining

[Anonymous No.22980653]

>>22980637
Just make another thread about how Jews put lines on your Greek or something Jesus Christ, sick of your retarded ass trying to bait the thread into retarded arguments.

[Anonymous No.22980657]

>>22980637
That's largely the others. I don't give a shit about racism. The average yellowman such as myself finds the topic boring. I definitely give a shit however about anti-intellctualism.

[Anonymous No.22980665]

>>22980637
>Can we not shit this thread up with a bunch of discord trannies larping as pseud weebs pretending to learn Classical Chinese?
>Can we not shit this thread up

[Anonymous No.22980670]

>>22980653
case in point
reread the following, it applies to you
>grow thicker skin and stop whining
>>22980657
>anti-intellctualism
While I agree, again this is 4chan. Digging through shit to find nuggets of gold is in its DNA.

[Anonymous No.22980684]

>>22980670
Fair. But there are graceful and a graceless ways to be a failure too.

[Anonymous No.22980692]

>>22980653
Post foreskin

[Anonymous No.22980716]

Friends, a good question for you:

At times, after some intellectual or demanding activity such as learning and practicing Greek and reading original stuff in Latin, or learning something like Maths, I feel that my brain is a little burnt out. So, I seek a lighter activity to cool off. Videogames, as I see it, are a waste of time, so I wanted some suggestions from the learned gentlemen such as yourselves.

[Anonymous No.22980737]

>>22980637
He didn't complain about it in the sense of acting hurt or sensitive, he said it's stupid, as in a stupid reason to categorically dismiss a literary tradition. You can do so if you wish but it is unquestionably a stupid thing to do.

[Anonymous No.22980749]

>>22980716
I don't have anything empirical for you, just anecdotes. If anyone has any research-supported ideas I'd love to hear them.
I don't see scrolling on a device or videogames or any such things as "light" or "cooling off." I'd wager that they are in fact extremely cognitively demanding in addition to being wastes of time. They go down easy, as junk food does, but practice monitoring how you feel. Do you feel good after video games or scrolling on your phone? I never have, for my part.
The big ones that very successful people around me have always espoused are meditation and/or physical activity. I am genuinely emotionally/psychologically tormented to the point where meditation is excruciating, but if that's not you then I would suggest giving it a shot. Swap it out for a version that fits your religious tradition of choice if so. You will feel better after.
Obviously any physical activity will confer corresponding mental benefits. It just takes discipline.
I play a lot of Go and sometimes Shogi or Chess. I don't describe them as rest because they're obviously cognitively demanding, but I'm often just on autopilot and therefore am 9k, never having yet broken 7k. That's probably not the most efficient way to cool off. It's probably another symptom of my burnt-out synapses.

[Anonymous No.22980757]

>>22980716
you're right about vidya, but there are very few low-intensity hobbies that are not wastes of time. maybe gardening (or something of that variety)

[Anonymous No.22980771]

>>22980757
It's fine for things to be "wastes of time." It's fine for things to serve no purpose other than themselves, because living a fully optimized life is terrible. The issue with vidya is that I am pretty sure it actively hurts your soul, or however you want to put it. I can actively feel my mental state change after I engage in it, just as with some hard drugs.

[Anonymous No.22980791]

>>22980716
In my opinion anything is fine, so long as you're having fun and don't end up wasting time instead of recuperating like you were supposed to. You have to understand that you can't be productive all the time, constantly hopping between learning this and that. If you're really insistent though, then I can recommend you some lighter sports, maybe something like running for a half hour or so?

[Anonymous No.22980813]

>>22980716
Exercise. I suggest a combination of calisthenics, weight training and cardio in any variation, whatever you enjoy.
Get outside and walk, preferably in nature though anywhere with greenery works. Even a stroll through the park is good for your mind. Gives you a chance to reflect on what you have learned or experienced as well.
Light reading, fiction, novels, scifi, whatever you enjoy. Guilty pleasures are fine in moderation.
Stimulating hobbies. Gardening as anon mentioned, calligraphy, painting, woodwork, quilting, sewing, etc. Something that is not too mentally taxing but requires a bit of concentration and exercises your creative abilities. You don't have to be the best in the world, just do your best, relax and enjoy the process.
Puzzles if you're into them. I consider puzzle games to fall in this category, things like Tetris or Puzzle Bobble. A ten minute Tetris break is surprisingly refreshing after long periods of study and ime does not produce the same type of stress as a shooter or action game.

[Anonymous No.22980826]

>>22980716
It bears mentioning that a number of great writers were prolific walkers.

[Anonymous No.22980863]

I had fallen into vice. Ne me eripiat Satana e paradiso. And the shores have covered the sand with tears of clouds. Will you rescue the wilting flower amidst the plastic? Minime, pulchritudo nunc undique non de natura sed de scientia. Non iam sumus juvenes. Repleti malitiis sumus senes. Nature cries in the forest; we rejoice in the city. sed de quo nunc canemus?

[Anonymous No.22980927]

>>22980508
okay let me try again

for this (reason), it helps a lot to converse (in) latin and greek with each other and to practice translating the active language (the language actively? im a grammarlet but is actively even an adjective in "the language actively"? if that is what is meant), (lest) not the masses suspect us being not experts in the old languages.

Its amazing how a couple of simple omissions like (reason) and (lest) completely destroy my ability to comprehend what is going on. How do you not get headshot by shit like this or do you have to just take it till you are exposed to all these constructions enough for it to sink it?

[Anonymous No.22980936]

>>22980437
How do I study hanzi if I want to study Mandarin and classical chinese?
Is it enough to just associate them with a single word?

[Anonymous No.22980951]

>>22980716
>i need an activity to waste some time
>but not video games because they are a waste of time
?

[Anonymous No.22980965]

>>22980716
Rubik's cubes. Your brain will hurt for a day or two and then it's just a glorified fidget toy.

[Anonymous No.22980994]

>>22980716
I'm gonna be honest my ritual is to get drunk one day a month, listen to Frank Sinatra, and go through a whole bottle of Sandeman. The grind picks up 5 AM tomorrow for running and then studies.

>>22979449
I want to apologize if I've been overly critical of you OP. I know we disagree about religion, and politics, and society, and a lot of other things but I'd miss you if you left. In vino veritas I guess.

(that night is tonight)

[Anonymous No.22981275]

>>22979462
What's with /clg/ and complaining about Classical Chinese learners lmao? I noticed the same thing happening a few months ago before taking a break from this place.

[Anonymous No.22981286]

>>22981275
Just people trying to shore up some worthless pseudo-identity they associate with using this shitty website.

[Anonymous No.22981313]

>>22981286
makes me long for reddit and discord desu

[Anonymous No.22981364]

>>22981313
Never said it was worse than those places, I'm sure they have an analogous dynamic where they pride themselves in belonging to the "approved" communities rather than le mean nasty 4chan den of iniquity. The difference is that here I am free to tell you what a massive pathetic faggot you are for telling yourself that you are special for posting here.

[Anonymous No.22981369]

>>22981275
It’s the yellow peril all over again.

[Anonymous No.22981388]

>οὐκ ἔχω σοι περὶ τούτου ἀντιλέγειν, ὦ Σώκρατες: ἀλλ᾽ ἐκεῖνο ἐμαυτῷ σύνοιδα, ὅτι περὶ Ὁμήρου κάλλιστ᾽ ἀνθρώπων λέγω καὶ εὐπορῶ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι πάντες μέ φασιν εὖ λέγειν, περὶ δὲ τῶν ἄλλων οὔ. καίτοι ὅρα τοῦτο τί ἔστιν.

[Anonymous No.22981501]

>>22979462
It's because you can't read the script at all, isn't it? Just looks like nothing to you. Hence you get bothered because you feel you've been robbed of content.

I find it pretty cool that the Chinese script was kind of designed to filter people, desu, what with that whole turbo-intellectual bureaucracy culture they had going on.

[Anonymous No.22981503]

>>22981501
I’m convinced they were just compensating for their cave man grammar.

[Anonymous No.22981514]

>>22980637
I'm interested in CC and don't care about racism.
I think it's a mistake to think that the people posting about CC are actually chinks. Do you also assume everybody posting Latin/Greek is a sweaty wop?

[Anonymous No.22981789]

>>22980927
that's pretty good anon
>(the language actively? im a grammarlet but is actively even an adjective in "the language actively"? if that is what is meant)
it just refers to passive usage of a language(listening, reading) vs active(writing, speaking), ἐνεργός could also translate as 'proactive'

>Its amazing how a couple of simple omissions like (reason) and (lest) completely destroy my ability to comprehend what is going on. How do you not get headshot by shit like this or do you have to just take it till you are exposed to all these constructions enough for it to sink it?
it's just lots of reading, yes, διὰ τοῦτο is wholly idiomatic just like english 'this means' where 'this' is understood from context, τοῦτο = this

[Anonymous No.22981988]

>>22979679
>>22980493
bretty good, especially the second part, but the first part sounds off albeit understandable, what construction did you have in mind with "caprae ovibusque tibi sunt tuendo"? also I don't think with pronominal adjectives like ullum you need the genitive, it should be ullum malum I think, whereas if you used e.g quicquam then it'd work

[Anonymous No.22982100]

>>22981988
Thanks, what I had in mind was "the goats and the sheep are yours to keep safe [for the purpose of keeping safe]". My thought with ullum mali was akin to using the genitive with nihil or something like that. Im pretty sure thats a thing, no?

[Anonymous No.22982110]

I'm surprised that LLPSI pairs really well with a good grammar book and is about a third as boring as the usual translation and production exercises that are counterproductive. It's reminding me how fucked language education is and how it's become a for-profit scam.

[Anonymous No.22982111]

>>22982100
indeed, but why the dative(?) for tuendo and ovibus?
shouldn't you write 'caprae ovesque tibi sunt tuendae'?
>akin to using the genitive with nihil or something like that
with the latter yes for sure, but nihil is a noun, whereas ullus,-a,-um as an adjective IIRC doesn't need the noun it modifies to go in the genitive

[Anonymous No.22982258]

>>22982111
The dat.on ovibus is lack of attention on my part, but yeah ur right. Thanks

[Anonymous No.22982279]

>>22979802
Duolingo (the good tracks, with German as the standard meter of quality for tracks) is complimentary thing to your actual study structure. Not the whole of it.

Why does most critique of Duolingo assume / place it as the most important study tool, as if it would replace grammar and reading?

[Anonymous No.22982305]

>>22982279
Not OP but my criticism is that even as a supplement it is a waste of time compared to reading

[Anonymous No.22982349]

>>22982279
Duolingo is a decent supplement for the layman beginner. The issue is that it restricts itself to neither category.
This is the problem with gamification. I believe their research that shows that their results tend to be better than the typical gentle introductory college courses; I also think it's used for far more than that and is really quite inferior to those courses in that those courses at least end.

[Anonymous No.22982615]

>>22982349
I picked up German with it fast enough to read B1 texts and I am honestly pretty stupid.

[Anonymous No.22982664]

>>22977781
It wouldn't have been a completely unprecedented situation; 筆談 was a thing historically.

[Anonymous No.22982701]

>>22977989
>>22978469
>>22978484
>>22978974
I've said this before, but the notion that classical languages are only for reading ancient texts and not for writing is a pretty recent one. Latin was in all kinds of productive use in Europe into the 18th and 19th centuries. Hell, Classical Arabic (with some light modernizations) is still the language of literature and formal speech in the Arab world!

[Anonymous No.22982715]

>>22978258
Even if you do nail tones, something like yi4 is still the pronunciation of a couple dozen common characters. (It's less of a problem in Cantonese, in which Mandarin yi4 corresponds to about nine different syllables, and even less of a problem if you use a reconstructed pronunciation. I think Cantonese is probably the best compromise between preserved distinctions and availability of audio materials and other resources.)

[Anonymous No.22982724]

>>22979475
At least for me I initially got interested in kanbun via Japanese, and I know at least one friend for whom it's the same

[Anonymous No.22982733]

>>22980564
The common denominator seems to be that the ones they mentioned are all part of a continuous tradition surviving to the present day, as opposed to their use having died out and having been deciphered again.

[Anonymous No.22982749]

>>22980716
You could do some solo physical activity, like running or paddleball. You could also try playing music or something.

[Anonymous No.22982753]

>>22980771
To be clear, are we talking about old vidya here, or modern vidya that's basically a digital casino with a game built around it?

[Anonymous No.22982759]

>>22980936
Reading lots of phonetically annotated text seems to be the main method I've heard recommended.

[Anonymous No.22982765]

>>22981503
Nah, logographic or semi-logographic scripts are just the default for a culture that's inventing writing independently- first you have pictures, then you start using them as rebuses. There's a reason why Sumerian, Egyptian, and Mayan writing are all basically logographic or semi-logographic too. Chinese just never got replaced by another script.

[Anonymous No.22982788]

Learning ancient Latin and Greek, that which people studied up until the 19th century, puts you among the elites that built entire high cultures. It is not a wasted measure by any means, you actually learn what language with meaning is.

[Anonymous No.22982793]

>>22982765
You can say whatever you want about "accessibility" or whatever (which is not always a good thing, btw) but the fact of the matter is that Chinese characters look really aesthetic. I remember watching an anime about calligraphy and it had me thinking that we don't really have anything capable of serving that function. I know there's "calligraphy" in Roman script, too, but it's not really the same.
This macdonalds mass-production egalitarian point of view where everything must submit to the standard of being navigable for a 70 IQ sex offender bothers me. Let the Chinese enjoy their 10000 characters.
(tenuous connection to your post, I know)

[Anonymous No.22982798]

>>22982793
I think Roman calligraphy can be plenty pretty in its own right. There are some other alphabets that can go even prettier, like Arabic (have you seen nastaliq?) or Mongolian.

[Anonymous No.22982805]

>>22982788
>language with meaning
Elaborate. What do you mean by this phrase?

[Anonymous No.22982814]

>>22982615
Its German course is a high mark to be sure

[Anonymous No.22982819]

>>22982753
Either. I played a ton of fighting games as a teen, which ruined other games for me because they were just more cognitively engaging. But even they feel unhealthy these days.

[Anonymous No.22982827]

>>22982798
Nastaliq does look very good, indeed. Mongolian (and Tibetan, for that matter) as well.
Roman, Greek and Cyrillic look terribly mundane to me. Undoubtedly has something to do with habituation, to be sure. Makes me wonder what a Japanese person sees when he sees Roman script for the first time.

[Anonymous No.22982840]

>>22982827
Even really pretty ornamented Latin cursive or other calligraphy?

[Anonymous No.22982847]

>>22982798
Burmese is underrated.

[Anonymous No.22982910]

>>22982827
Probably not very much anymore, given how it's basically everywhere now.
This is how I feel with Cyrillic. Looking at older manuscripts, Cyrillic is extremely beautiful and ornate but modern typefaces make it look soulless and robotic.

[Anonymous No.22982929]

>>22982793
>Chinese characters look really aesthetic
traditional only, but maybe that's implicit in this general.

[Anonymous No.22982937]

>>22982929
Simplified characters aren't as pretty, but they still have an aesthetic of their own. (Though if we're honest, second round simplified characters look better than first round, because they at least apply the 'simplified' aesthetic consistently instead of looking like a weird halfway point.)

[Anonymous No.22982949]

>>22982937
Honestly they all just look shit to me. Especially when they're next to traditional characters and stick out plain as day.
On the other hand, traditional characters are so sexy that I just want to lick them all over. I find that this sentiment is quite common among Japanese(And possibly Chinese?) learners who have reached a certain level of proficiency in the language.

[Anonymous No.22982962]

>>22982949
Can we at least agree that shinjitai don't depart as badly from the aesthetic of traditional characters as PRC simplified forms do?

[Anonymous No.22982973]

>>22982949
> so sexy that I just want to lick them all over. I find that this sentiment is quite common among Japanese

[Anonymous No.22982989]

The sin of Simplified isn't the variation in number of strokes. I think balanced variation is one of the nicest aesthetic features of traditional characters. See Tangut for an example of a script with low variation of stroke count. Illegible.
The sin is poor aesthetics for print. Most simplifications originate in handwriting abbreviations. Shinjitai is the best compromise, but even that is a step too far for my taste.

[Anonymous No.22982993]

>>22982989
What would you think of a variant that adopts all the structural simplifications but not the cursive based ones?

[Anonymous No.22983020]

>>22982993
I'm against half-measures. I happen to be against full measures on this issue too. The script is what it is.

[Anonymous No.22983026]

>>22983020
What about just replacing it outright? The Dungans managed okay. It's pretty, but you have to admit it's not very practical.

[Anonymous No.22983041]

>>22983026
With digital input and search it's increasingly a non-issue for the users themselves, though it's admittedly a large issue when they (especially the less literate types) try to write things by hand.
I think I once heard that Japanese kanji usage has actually increased since the advent of the internet, reversing the previous trend.
I of course agree that partial or full phoneticization would make more sense than turning a complicated system into an ugly and complicated system via any character simplification scheme. But the loss to culture would be immeasurable.

[Anonymous No.22983049]

>>22983041
I think the biggest issue is how long it takes for them to learn to read and write.
>But the loss to culture would be immeasurable.
Eh, Vietnam and Korea seem to have managed okay.

[Anonymous No.22983064]

>>22983049
I know a good deal of Vietnamese and Koreans who would beg to differ. Many Vietnamese take it as a shameful but hard to reverse symbol of their subjugation under the French, and I've heard it said that the average Korean's vocabulary has tanked post-hangulization. I don't know either of those languages for myself, so far be it from me to say.
I think the Japanese practice and increasing trend in Chinese schools of allowing phonetic substitution in assignments is good enough.

[Anonymous No.22983070]

>>22982847
Looks nice in a neon light type of aesthetic. Similarly roundish-looking scripts are Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, and Georgian.

[Anonymous No.22983074]

Speaking of pretty yet impractical, I would pay dearly for a facsimile of one of these editions.

[Anonymous No.22983087]

>>22983064
>Many Vietnamese take it as a shameful but hard to reverse symbol of their subjugation under the French
As opposed to a symbol of their subjugation under the Chinese? Both scripts are colonial.

[Anonymous No.22983114]

>>22983087
Sure, pick your poison in that case. All I know is that I've met a few who are upset over the loss of nom. Such things once changed are really difficult to reverse.

[Anonymous No.22983130]

Quippe ubi semper dicit unam non satis unciam,
Heu! quare illius saepe novem fruitur?

[Anonymous No.22983137]

>>22983074
A replica might be nicer.

[Anonymous No.22983161]

>>22983137
Those are lovely too. I enjoy Garamond's calligraphic Greek though.

[Anonymous No.22983210]

>>22983161
Seems they go for the retail price of a flagship phone.
https://www.biblicalheritageexhibit.com/pages/shop-the-bhe

[Anonymous No.22983819]

>>22982793
>I know there's "calligraphy" in Roman script, too, but it's not really the same.

[Anonymous No.22983839]

>>22983074
https://www.apmanuscripts.com
Dearly indeed, they do custom orders but I'd imagine starting at $3-500 or so

[Anonymous No.22983876]

>>22983210
>damn that's a lot
>bet you can get an original cheaper
>abebooks
>welp

[Anonymous No.22984069]

>>22983819
Most xenophiles have rather large cultural blind spots. You don’t fetishize foreigners nearly as much if you know your own culture well.

[Anonymous No.22984355]

I kinda just want to do a print on demand service so that I can just have physical copies of texts to read. These book prices are bullshit.

[Anonymous No.22984393]

>>22984355
Print on demand quality is horrendous. My steadman books are nearly disposable. (Don't laugh I'm new to this and it makes Anabasis and Herodotus easy)

[Anonymous No.22984394]

>>22984355
If you just want to read then no need for an Estienne Gospel.
If you want an edition with that specific typeface then you're going to have to pay. PoD from grainy pdf files is not going to come out the way you want it to. It will end up a blurry mess.
You might be better off getting a cheap tablet, though staring at a screen for hours on end is not good at all.

[Anonymous No.22984398]

>>22980716

chess.

[Anonymous No.22984410]

>>22984393
Nothing wrong with those, Anon, as long as you attempt to achieve smooth, continuous reading. They're good tools and I have a pipe dream of making my own for some Chinese texts some day. (If I do this, top candidates are something from 古文觀止, or the core chapters of the Analects. What would people here prefer?)

>>22984398
I'll plug Go here. I find it a lot more fulfilling and fun to study. There are simply more ways to improve your game than with chess.

[Anonymous No.22984482]

>>22984410
>chinkaboo can't mention Go without disparaging chess

[Anonymous No.22984494]

>>22984482
I'm not disparaging chess: I like that game too. I'm just offering an alternative and describing my own feeling about it and a mathematical truth. I wish more people tried it.

[Anonymous No.22985219]

So what’s the general reasoning for the diminished emphasis on the classics in modern education? Seems to have been a thing since the mid 20th century. It’s like all of a sudden western academia decided they were too good for civilization or something. Is it just the postmodernist anti-culture boogeyman like Jordan Peterson says?

[Anonymous No.22985223]

>>22982701
exactly. Hebrew changed a lot during it's revival, but modern religious Hebrew (the language used to write religious literature) is a continuation of older traditions, while modern Hebrew influences it as much as Yidish was influencing Ashkenazi writers.

[Anonymous No.22985228]

any akkadianons here?
I know some Akkadian and I want to make some akkadian tattoos, have you got any?
Or any other tattoos in classical languages?
I'm translating and correcting tattoos in Hebrew as a side job, but I can do it for you bros for free if you are interested in making some.

[Anonymous No.22985247]

>>22985219
I'm not going to pretend I'm an expert on this but I believe the emergence of China as a global trading power is partly to blame. Colleges prefer Mandarin over Latin, so high schools and community colleges have course corrected. Pun not intended. Anyways, that's just my two cents.

[Anonymous No.22985260]

>>22985219
The people that control the media, book publishers and modern academia, aren't big fans of Greco-Roman notions of aesthetics, honor, duty and honesty. They instinctively know these ancient people would have a strong disdain for their values and behavior.

[Anonymous No.22985356]

>>22985228
>tattoos in Hebrew
for what purpose
the Mosaic law forbids tattoos

[Anonymous No.22985397]

>>22985247
the abandoning of classics far predates china's (re)emergence as an economic powerhouse though and where I'm from colleges sure as hell don't prefer mandarin over latin: they care about neither

[Anonymous No.22985539]

>>22985219
Modernism rejected tradition nearly as vociferously as postmodernism has. The fall began with industrialization. Uncle Ted was right about some shit.

[Anonymous No.22985561]

>>22985219
The crisis of the university inevitably brought upon by opening it up to the masses. Classical "liberal education" for everyone is an untenable ideal. Thus begins the transformation of colleges into trade schools. There are ghouls in there who will even try to turn every Pure Math major into an Accounting major and shutter the Medicine department for Massage Therapy.

>>22985247
This trend predates the rise of China as a trading power of any kind.

>>22985260
Translations of Greek and Latin classics still sell like hotcakes, and "classical culture" courses have high enrollment.

[Anonymous No.22985594]

>>22985561
Those coursesare not without bias and they don't really teach what a 19th century student would learn about the ancients. They also make a stop and do not go into the early fathers from what i know. Your average student enrolls for things like Sappho

[Anonymous No.22985610]

>>22982840
Yeah, so that makes me think it's basically just habituation.
I write in cursive myself, and seeing pretty cursive handwriting is just "nice" without really making me feel like it's art or anything. However, I feel there to be a sharp distinction whenever the typeface is so alien as to be basically illegible, like certain forms of blackletter. Here, I more clearly see the "aesthetic" side to it, rather than perceiving it as cold and utilitarian.
An actual issue, perhaps, with Roman script is that, especially nowadays, not much ornamentation is allowed in the sense that people can basically not even read cursive readily anymore. Now, you can probably say the same thing for any script, especially after the advent of mass literacy, but Chinese characters do have the advantage of being 1: extremely copious and 2: often rather complex, and I find that these qualities keep them "fresh", so to speak. Maybe this is conducive to the degree to which they've historically been "played with", like how calligraphy was not just seen as a "nice" thing but actually as one of the main forms of traditional art altogether.

>>22982929
I have, indeed, seen quite a few nice looking characters murdered by simplification.
How useful is simplification even, really? Have any studies been done on e.g. how quickly a child picks up reading and writing in traditional vs simplified? I feel like the 20th century Chinese attempts to blame various traditional things (script, Confucius) for the lack of modernization and literacy etc. may well be based on fallacious thinking. Smells too much like a cope to me.
I read the other day that Chinese/Japanese children only take a few extra months to master writing than western ones do; seeing as we're talking about a difference of literally thousands of extra characters to be learned, what difference does a paltry few extra strokes even make? Plus, East Asians are intelligent. I don't know whether the sacrifice is worth it.

[Anonymous No.22985620]

>>22985356
nta but evangelical american boomers?

[Anonymous No.22985641]

>>22985594
The same things are true for language courses.
Take a second to think about your own difficulties with Greek and Latin. Think of how you would put everyone through that. Think of how you'd explain it to them. I wish there were more people to talk to intelligently about these things, but would not instate such a thing.
I wish everyone simply got a better course of pure reading and math than they now do. If that were the case, more people would naturally go for the classics and other interesting subjects. Even that would require a social transformation.

[Anonymous No.22986119]

>>22985356
Who says everyone who speaks Hebrew is an observant Orthodox Jew?

[Anonymous No.22986140]

>>22985594
What's wrong with Sappho? They don't call her the tenth Muse for nothing.

[Anonymous No.22986255]

>>22985610
>I read the other day that Chinese/Japanese children only take a few extra months to master writing than western ones do
By 'western' do they mean English children or, say, Finnish ones?

[Anonymous No.22986351]

>>22986255
picrel, I looked up the quote for you.
I did think it was unfair that he compares a few of the highest IQ ethnicities in the world to the US, which has more than a few issues in the ethnic department, at least when it comes to illiteracy and test scores. It would be more interesting to compare e.g. Taiwanese to White Americans specifically.

[Anonymous No.22986356]

>>22986351
>>22986255
damn

[Anonymous No.22986370]

>>22986356
>To do so, however, would eliminate the increment of universal intelligibility which exists in China
This part is bullshit. Speakers of different Chinese languages can't understand each other in writing because Chinese characters are ideograms, they can understand each other in writing because they learn a common written language (Classical Chinese historically, Mandarin-based Standard Written Chinese today). If you actually write vernacular Cantonese or vernacular Hokkien in Chinese characters, a monolingual Mandarin speaker will understand more than they would spoken, but still far from everything.

[Anonymous No.22986429]

>>22983137
When did you learn Coptic?

[Anonymous No.22986454]

>>22985356
If you are a Christian you don't care about mosaic law, the same for secular Jews.

[Anonymous No.22986470]

>>22986370
It's really jarring to hear Standard Chinese in Canto. It's like hearing English grammar transposed into French, or vice-versa.

[Anonymous No.22986477]

>>22986470
Yeah, it's a shame there isn't more music in actual Cantonese. As far as I've seen it's mostly humorous songs and rap.

[Anonymous No.22986501]

>>22986140
Nothing, I like her. I mean that a lot of people get into the Classics for the wrong reasons, Sappho here representing homossexuality

>>22985641
Fair. One thing is for certain: whereas an educared person in centuries past would be a good critical thinker, an educated person today is not very discernible from a parrot

[Anonymous No.22986505]

>>22986501
What's wrong with being interested in homosexuality in the ancient world? There's something nice about knowing that we've always been here and aren't going anywhere.

[Anonymous No.22986509]

>>22985228
I have a story about the subject of Akkadian tattoos. My professor, a charismatic asshole, taught a world religions class. He was talking about cuneiform and mentioned the dingir. He said that someone should get a dinger tattoo and go up to women at bars, offering to show his dingir. One student did the very same, and the first woman he tried it on married him. It's a funny story that's plausible. Whether or not it really happened, I don't know. One of his TAs, a friend of mine and an older (than typical, not old old) student of his, confirmed the story but never knew the guy.
After looking for pic rel, tatts seem common.

[Anonymous No.22986519]

>>22986501
I don't think that's for certain at all, anon. Most people are educated in all ages and cultures are educated into being parrots for their class and background. Time just filters out the mass of mediocre voices.

[Anonymous No.22986522]

>>22985561
>The crisis of the university inevitably brought upon by opening it up to the masses. Classical "liberal education" for everyone is an untenable ideal. Thus begins the transformation of colleges into trade schools. There are ghouls in there who will even try to turn every Pure Math major into an Accounting major and shutter the Medicine department for Massage Therapy.
I'm saving this. Thank you.

[Anonymous No.22986528]

>>22986519
Precisely- we only think about the few who didn't end up as parrots because the parrots didn't leave behind anything that's worth reading centuries later.

[Anonymous No.22986540]

>>22986370
Exactly but his whole essay is bullshit. It ends with trying to imply that Chinese characters influenced the development of calculus.

[Anonymous No.22986561]

>>22986505
You don't get it, anon. Nor am I one to claim that you shouldn't exist

>>22986519
>>22986528
Right, but consider that it is much easier for a modern student to fall for subversive manipulation and propaganda, than it was for some student in the 18th century who grew up with Plato and Augustine. Something about knowing one's origins and that of your civilization: Chesterton's fence and all that

[Anonymous No.22986569]

>>22986561
Is it really? I'd argue that the 18th century students were just as propagandized, just for a different ideology.

[Anonymous No.22986620]

>>22986569
Yes, it is. Once you don't know why things are there, how they got there, who made it and why, you can believe all sorts of things that you're fed with. Our school systems create obedient bureaucrats and teacher's pets, but fail to create people with a passing knowledge of what is really important. This would not be the case then, not anywhere near as much.


I would even wager that the Trivium and Quadrivium were much better than even those systems of the 18th century, but that's another story. In any case, I don't see how having to learn about the reproductive acts of snakes and memorizing certain functions of certain groups of trees is a justifyable replacement to learning Latin and Greek.

[Anonymous No.22986627]

>>22986501
There is nothing wrong with approaching the classics out of curiosity for ancient mores. I think it's even a good entry point, so long as we remember that the ancients can always surprise us.

[Anonymous No.22986722]

>>22986370
Yes, that does seem dubious. Sounds like how every German knows how to write High German even if their dialect is mutually unintelligible with it.

>>22986540
It's from the introduction of "Reading and Writing Chinese" by William McNaughton.
It seems to be a rather ubiquitous thing to talk the language and culture up in ways particularly relevant to westerners when it comes to introductory textbooks and such things. I expect Leibniz probably made some comment somewhere and then this fellow blew it out of proportion.
You should hear some of the things they say about Sanskrit, although that one's especially warped because a good portion of its users are religiously obliged to think its somehow a perfect language. Perfect grammar and the root of all languages, the language of the gods, and so on. Saying Chinese characters may have been inspiration to some polymath sometime sounds fairly humble in comparison to that.

[Anonymous No.22986781]

>>22986505
>>22986627
The classics reflect our vices back onto us.
Works more easily portrayed as condoning homo poopsex sell like hotcakes? Vice.
Women being promoted as translators for no reason other than vagina? Vice.
Not understanding that ancient peoples genuinely believed in their gods? Vice.
Treating the ancient pantheons as little more an antiquated version of the avengers? Vice.
Ignoring the Romans while fetishizing the superior intellectuality of the Greeks? Vice.
Ignoring the Greeks while fetishizing the superior diligence and militarism of the Romans? Vice.
Completely ignoring the works of Christianity? Vice.
Massive amounts of historical revisionism? Vice.

The common strain of thought in western civilization is a focus on the classics.
What an era says about the classics tells us a lot about that particular era.

[Anonymous No.22986805]

>>22986781
>condoning homo poopsex
The Greeks would never!

[Anonymous No.22986843]

>>22985223
> modern religious Hebrew (the language used to write religious literature) is a continuation of older traditions
That's interesting.

In the 1970s, there was this guy, Yosef Qafih, who translated The Guide for the Perplexed into Hebrew.
There's a book chapter, "Yosef Qafih's Modern Medieval Translation of Maimonides' Guide of the Perplexed", but it I don't see it mention what exactly it is that makes his translation "Modern Medieval".
Are you (or one of >>22985228 and >>22986119) maybe familiar with it, could his translation be classified as Rabbinical Hebrew? Or is it still Modern Hebrew, and the medieval part comes refers to his translation style? Or is the style of his language another category still?

[Anonymous No.22986862]

/clg/ ain't ready for this crossover

[Anonymous No.22986990]

can anyone with a good Attic pronunciation record a vocaroo saying αἰσχρός for me please? I don't think I'm pronouncing this right

[Anonymous No.22987032]

>>22986990
What about /ai̯skʰrós/ is so hard?

[Anonymous No.22987097]

>>22986990
pro-tip: https://forvo.com/languages/grc/
it won't have necessarily all ancient Greek words you are looking for but it has many, including αἰσχρός
the first one is basically how I'd say it, the second one has the /o/ a bit more open than it should be I guess

[Anonymous No.22987156]

>>22980508
Why did you write οντας? I don't think you need two participles there.

[Anonymous No.22987157]

>>22980536
Classical = IE, i.e only the first 3
Bing fong show is not a language, much less a classical one.

[Anonymous No.22987181]

>>22987157
Fuck off back to /pol/.

[Anonymous No.22987190]

>>22981388
ἐγώ αὐτος

[Anonymous No.22987214]

>>22985594
>Christcuck hating on Sappho and her beautiful poetry
>wants us to learn Greek to read da jesus book and Morotatos' 400 page exegesis of the 3rd sentence of Mark
kys

[Anonymous No.22987230]

>>22986781
Christianity goes to >>>/x/ gtfo.

[Anonymous No.22987236]

>>22987156
hypercorrection

[Anonymous No.22987262]

If we're learning bug languages itt, anyone tackled Classical Ant?

[Anonymous No.22987267]

>>22987230
>>22987214
there was a time in which the study of the classics was made for the sake of reason, beauty, appreciation, understanding. Now, it seems, the study of the classics happens because the Greeks and Romans were... le gay!

> hating on Sappho
I said I like her. You would know if you bothered to read

[Anonymous No.22987306]

>>22987262
I prefer Classical Beetle.

[Anonymous No.22987334]

>>22984069
based

[Anonymous No.22987354]

>>22987230
You fuck off fedora tipper

[Anonymous No.22987356]

>>22987267
Massive oversimplification. You know the past through books, and so you're hearing from the best of it. Most people studied classical languages because it was their homework, full stop. Latin had the place that math now occupies as the subject that most schoolchildren find boring, difficult, and useless. Of course there were also more people studying it for reason, beauty, appreciation, and understanding because there were numerically more people studying it.
I also don't know anyone who chooses to take up a massive understanding like learning Greek and Latin just because le gay. If that sparks interest, then that's a fine thing. As an only reason? Never heard of that.

[Anonymous No.22987358]

>>22987230
Hating on classical religions in a classical language thread is amusing.

[Anonymous No.22987376]

>>22987358
Xtianity is not a "classical religion", it destroyed the classical religions.
>>22987354
>anyone who dislikes Xschizoism is...LE r/ATHEISM USER

[Anonymous No.22987383]

>>22987376
>Xtianity
Can't even say Christ.

[Anonymous No.22987397]

>>22987356
I will admit that was just for the sake of the comic. I disagree with your point in a sense. A subject being boring says nothing about it, really, and is not a good basis for judgement. Math may be boring to some, but to others it is incredible; also, it is a necessary subject to be taught. Same can be said for the classical languages, friend.

[Anonymous No.22987399]

>>22987376
>it destroyed classical religions
wait until anon finds out that the ancients willingly converted to Christianity

[Anonymous No.22987401]

>>22987383
'X' for 'Christ' just originated as a scribal abbreviation.

[Anonymous No.22987409]

>>22987399
Depends a lot on the time and place. We have plenty of records of historical penal laws forbidding pagan religious practices, suggesting there were people who weren't willing to go along with the new religion.

[Anonymous No.22987410]

>>22987399
>the ancients willingly converted to Christianity
christdogs' ability to come up with these hilarious euphemisms will never cease to amaze

[Anonymous No.22987418]

>>22987356
>>22987397
Discussion can't be had without distinguishing between public education and the old system. I.e. it's part of something bigger and talking about it as an isolated phenomenon leads nowhere.

[Anonymous No.22987455]

>>22987383
>Follower of Yeshua and Saul calling others Jews
Never gets old
>>22987399
They were at most 10% of the population of the empire by the time of Constantine. If you call "willingly converted" either being massively pressured and incentivized by the government or being forced then you're a retard

[Anonymous No.22987468]

>>22987409
early Christianity, of course
>>22987455
>>22987410
You can sure convince yourselves of the contrary, and also that 10% thing is silly

[Anonymous No.22987483]

>>22987468
Some people converted willingly. Some people converted under great pressure.

[Anonymous No.22987496]

>>22987483
Yes but that already dispels the notion of it destroying ancient religions. Christianity was also greatly persecuted by those same religions

[Anonymous No.22987509]

>>22987496
How did it not? It supplanted them, and some of the conversions were under pressure. If everyone had been given the freedom to continue practicing whatever religion they liked with no pressure, those ancient religions would likely still exist alongside Christianity.

[Anonymous No.22987529]

Preme S ut conspuas Nazarenum.

[Anonymous No.22987531]

>>22987509
Given the rate of adoption of Christianity, I find that doubtful. But I'm mainly fighting against the motion of some anons here blaming christianity for doing to the pagans the same as the pagans did to it

[Anonymous No.22987535]

>>22987509
well christobolsheviks may have decreed the extirpation of pagan practice within the limits of the empire but like the mafia, you're "free" to not pay :^), something may happen afterwards but it's your choice :^)

[Anonymous No.22987543]

>>22987529
S? cur non X? tenes :D?

[Anonymous No.22987544]

>>22987543
hahae

[Anonymous No.22987545]

>>22987531
They kinda did once they had power, though. They made pagan practices illegal, closed down pagan temples by force of law...

[Anonymous No.22987556]

>>22987545
refer back to
> I'm mainly fighting against the motion of some anons here blaming christianity for doing to the pagans the same as the pagans did to it

[Anonymous No.22987561]

>>22987556
Are you saying they didn't make pagan practices illegal and close pagan temples by force of law? You can find that stuff in any history book.

[Anonymous No.22987590]

ἡμεῖς δ᾽ οὐ μόνον τούτοις ὑπολειπόμεθ᾽, ὦ ἄνδρες Ἀθηναῖοι, ἀλλ᾽ οὐδ᾽ ἀνεγερθῆναι δυνάμεθα, ἀλλὰ μανδραγόραν πεπωκόσιν ἤ τι φάρμακον ἄλλο τοιοῦτον ἐοίκαμεν ἀνθρώποις

[Anonymous No.22987694]

>>22987561
no dude, read it again
> blaming christianity for doing to the pagans the same as the pagans did to it

[Anonymous No.22988050]

>>22987545
>>22987561
jew mindset
>treat others like shit
>tables turn
>why do they persecute me so
>oy vey doing to me what I did to you is wrong
>Golden Rule doesn't apply to goyim

[Anonymous No.22988095]

>>22988050
It’s also pretty silly to assume the people who persecuted the Christians weren’t the ancestors of the people who persecuted the pagans. Your lineage doesn’t magically change just because grandpa was a good pagan and now you’re a good Christian convert. No one is surprised when college kids who bay for Russian blood today are the grandchildren of people who were preaching against the red menace back in the 1950s, so why treat the classical era differently? We shouldn’t blame any ideology for the actions of a state that’d already proven itself to have been trigger happy with regard to the persecution of unsanctioned religious practice.

[Anonymous No.22989100]

bunp

[Anonymous No.22989146]

does μῑ΄κρα (adj.) have a long accent on the alpha as well? In all the inflected forms? Mastronarde only shows the nominative with a macron.

[Anonymous No.22989149]

>>22989146
Macrons didn't exist silly

[Anonymous No.22989150]

>>22989149
ok nigga you get the point

[Anonymous No.22989158]

>>22989150
I'm serious. I'm not using accents. I'm sorry, I'm just not haha

[Anonymous No.22989161]

>>22989146
The feminine does; the neuter doesn't.

[Anonymous No.22989162]

>>22989161
Lmfao

[Anonymous No.22989172]

>>22989158
I'm asking if it is long or not, I thought that was clear. The macron here representing a long vowel

>>22989161
Now I don't know if this is a genuine reply because the other anon laughed, but I'll take it as such. Thanks

[Anonymous No.22989173]

>>22987468
>and also that 10% thing is silly
Ok so what's your estimate? No historian will deny they were a small minority mostly concentrated in Rome and eastern cities

[Anonymous No.22989176]

>>22989172
actually one more thing: does the long iota always remain long there? Or is vowel length liable to change in different inflections?

[Anonymous No.22989183]

>>22989172
the other anon is a ethnic clown who likes to get utterly demolished on the matter of ancient Greek phonology, ignore him, he doesn't even know the language
the α is always long for the feminine singular terminations and regularly would be η but because the root ends in ρ in Attic it stays ᾱ, whereas in Ionic ᾱ changes regularly to η
>>22989176
the iota in this case is part of the root, so it doesn't change its length

[Anonymous No.22989187]

>>22989172
It's genuine. Don't mind him: there's a schizo in these threads who thinks long vowels are some kind of conspiracy and is willing to ignore all sorts of evidence to push this point.
The α in μίκρα (f.nom.) is another realization of the η ending. Where this happens varies by dialect but it happens pretty consistently after ρ. The neuter α ending by contrast is short. Interestingly, this makes μίκρα (f.nom.) and μίκρα (n.nom.) a minimal pair.

[Anonymous No.22989189]

>>22987694
The pagan "persecutions" are a meme invented by Christcuck historians. Their track record with other religions showed that they only persecuted Druidism and Judaism since they were political threats. They (rightly) viewed Christianity as just a sect of Judaism so the persecutions were just spillover from any persecutions of Judaism.
The difference is that Xtians persecuted pagans for theological reasons once they got in power, since Xtianity denies that any other religions can be real, while Roman paganism never did (remember that they viewed Xtians as atheists for this reason). Did boomers in the Platonic academy really threaten Justinian? No. The pagans weren't a political force after Julian, or maybe Valentinian. He sent the Christcuck Cheka to shut it down because of his schizo religion.

[Anonymous No.22989191]

>>22989183
Righto, thanks anon

[Anonymous No.22989225]

>Iulius non solus, sed cum Aeimilia et cum magna familia in villa habitat.
>Aemilia viro suo osculum dat. Iulius Aemiliae osculum dat.
Fuck you.

[Anonymous No.22989233]

https://www.thelatinlibrary.com/decl.html

wish there was a greek version of this

[Anonymous No.22989271]

>>22989233
if you can handle a bit of Italian this is kinda similar http://www.poesialatina.it/_ns/Greek/html/Sost2aTT.html

[Anonymous No.22989358]

>>22989189
Thirdie detected. This site has been ruined by the derangement of the third world.

[Anonymous No.22989488]

God, being able to read Latin feels so good. It's all simple sentences that sound retarded to people who are fluent in the language, sure, but it's nice nevertheless. What should I read after going through the two LLPSI books? Also, so far I've been going through them without the supplementary books. What are those like?

[Anonymous No.22989503]

>>22989488
>Posterō diē ut lūdōrum spectācula vidērem ad Circum Māximum mē contulī. Per tōtum hunc circum longa spīna, ut mūrus, quattuor pedēs alta, medium dīvidit spatium; apud utrumque fīnem stat mēta prope quam aurīgae currūs vertere solent.
Look up Latin readers (e.g. puer romanus) by Appleton & Jones. They wrote "easy" Latin readers but today they are on the level of post FR. Above is a taste of the level.

[Anonymous No.22989505]

Pons Tironum
Breviarium Historiae Romae
De Amicitia
De Senectute

[Anonymous No.22989506]

>>22989505
Meant to reply to >>22989488

[Anonymous No.22989512]

>>22989488
time for you to graduate into Latin manhood and start with "GALLIA EST OMNIS DIVISA IN PARTES TRES...."

[Anonymous No.22989547]

>>22989488
>>22989503
Why would you go from one reader to another? Read real Latin. The sooner you get started the sooner you will improve

[Anonymous No.22989598]

The standard for 'knowing' Latin (and Greek) is so low. To 'know' Latin, you just have to be able to hack through a text with a dictionary and it pretty much seems that this is all grad programs expect.

[Anonymous No.22989620]

>>22989598
That is true but knowing how to translate Latin and knowing all the grammar complexities is a skill by itself. Even if you might not 'know' Latin after a classics degree, you will know more about Latin than Caesar probably ever did.
Both are valuable skills.

[Anonymous No.22989675]

>>22989173
The Christian closing of pagan temples and whatnot happened around 390 with Theodosius. By then, Christianity was around half the people in the empire, it seems. Also, let it be known that we only know of the ancients and their religions today because CHRISTIAN SCRIBES preserved their writings. Moreover, you're acting as if some grand virtue was lost with those pagan religions. To which I say >picrel

[Anonymous No.22989697]

>>22989675
Usual jewish iconoclasm to subvert living traditions then claim virtue in passing on orally what they were (filtered through jewish value sets)

[Anonymous No.22989716]

>>22989697
Sorry bud but tree over there doesn't have magic powers. Also, the ritualistic depravity will stop. I understand this makes some upset. Christ loves you though, and so do I. I will be praying for your enlightenment.

[Anonymous No.22989725]

>>22989716
golem, you are brown and cringe, take your foreskin worship religion to some third world imageboard where it belongs and stop shitting up this thread

[Anonymous No.22989736]

>>22989725
Unfortunately for you, the Classics are inherently tied to Christianity. You may cope about this, ignore it for all you like, you may even convince yourself of the contrary, but alas, you will be living a silly little lie. This can be seen by my addressing of your points and your default response of diversion. It sucks to know that muh based ancestors were devout Christians, I know, but it is what it is, friend. You could learn a lot from the peoples of the past if you were interested in history :)

[Anonymous No.22989746]

How the hell do Sanskritists memorize all the conjunct consonants?

[Anonymous No.22989767]

>>22989736
keep telling yourself that and make sure to make an epic chungus meme on your discord about it, but do so in a third world imageboard with your brothers, not here, hop hop, off you go, ἀνασταυρώθητι

[Anonymous No.22989863]

>>22989746
by memorizing thousands of lines of verse. memorizing morphology is easy once you've trained your memory.

[Anonymous No.22989897]

>>22989675
I said by the time of CONSTANTINE
>Christian Scribes
Admirable for them but doesn't really have anything to do with Christianity, the respect for Latin and Greek was really a Pagan holdover. There were just as many Xtian scribes who wrote their schizo stories over classic Latin works which they erased to get the paper, and hardcore Christians have always criticized the influence of classics on Christian morality, like Tertullian. If paganism survived we'd probably have even more works.

[Anonymous No.22989903]

>>22989358
>3rdie
The only Xtiantards on here are Chicanos and Filipinos lol

[Anonymous No.22989913]

>>22989736
Christianity and the Classics will be the same if you post one more gigachad meme made by a 300 lb tradcath Hispanic

[Anonymous No.22989914]

>>22989863
>memorizing thousands of lines of verse.
I keep hearing this a lot but I still don't understand how it works. Sure, you memorized a lot of sentences or works of poetry or whatever, but how does this actually help you learn the language?

[Anonymous No.22989919]

>>22989914
if you have a good memory, you are able to memorize things easier yes? which is a large part of learning a language yes?

[Anonymous No.22989925]

>>22989914
feel it out, nigger

[Anonymous No.22989954]

>>22989767
Heh, the irony in you saying that.

>>22989897
By the time of Constantine, I'm not sure. But considering that the pagans only started being persecuted around 390, and by then it was the religion of half the people in the empire, we can correctly point out that, if it was indeed 10% by the time of Contstantine, and 50% by the end of the 4th century, then it does not defeat my point that people converted willingly at that time. In fact, it strengthens my point: what kind of weak religiosity must you have if you're willing to convert to a religion because your emperor converted to it? Surely you must not think too highly of paganism, or you must see the truth of Christianity, or else there is no explanation. In either case, I don't see how you can win this arguement.

Also, what's funnier, and what shows you have little knowledge of the topic, is that Constantine made Christianity LEGAL, as in, it made it so it was fine to practice Christianity, meaning that more people weren't converting simply because it was illegal and out of fear of persecution. Constantine didn't impose the religion. He didn't persecute anyone. Just made it legal. Your argument falls apart no matter what, and I mean, just look at the rate of adoption of it.

>>22989913
Not a tradcath, not Hispanic. Just thought it was funny and it correctly points out some of the sillyness of these people defending ancient religions in lieu of Christianity.

[Anonymous No.22990515]

>>22989620
>you will know more about Latin than Caesar probably ever did.
There are plenty of virgins who have a better knowledge of the reproductive system than sex havers as well. We just need to admit that the goal isn't to speak latin fluently or learn it naturally. The goal is to treat it like a puzzle and force people to develop problem solving skills to be able to solve said puzzle. That's how we treat many university math courses today.

[Anonymous No.22990570]

>>22989954
Where did I say that Constantine persecuted pagans? I know he didn't make it the only state religion.

[Anonymous No.22990684]

>>22990515
Sure, I'm a physicist and I really quite hate how school treats math.
The problem with this is that we confuse learning Latin with learning linguistics through Latin as an example.
If you actually want to read Latin or Greek, the traditional way fails completely.
Although, that isn't the purpose. If you want to improve your English by comparing it to Latin and if you want to know more about roots and suffixes and what a dative or a gerund are, learning traditionally is obviously superior.
Speaking fluent Latin is a bit of a meme nowadays but some Dane in the 50s didn't discover how to learn languages, it's tiresome to see retards on the internet think they know better.

[Anonymous No.22990753]

>>22988050
I don't approve of the persecution of Christians either though. I think both were wrong.

[Anonymous No.22990770]

>>22989736
Texts from the classical period were generally written by pagans.

[Anonymous No.22990774]

>>22989914
Try learning song lyrics when learning modern languages (or classical languages for that matter). You'll find it helps with remembering the words and grammar in those texts.

[Anonymous No.22990847]

>>22990570
But you see how the point that Christianity destroyed the ancient religions is not withstanding, then?

[Anonymous No.22990988]

[Anonymous No.22991007]

>>22979462
Are you happy, now it's being shit up by trannies arguing about Christianity instead of, you know. Classical languages.

[Anonymous No.22991031]

>>22990847
Not really, even if paganism was going to die anyway (which is debatable, I've read historians who claim that the 4th century was a renaissance for paganism, and its survival into the 6th or 7th century in the Eastern Empire despite persecution shows it still had some strength), Christianity ended up delivering the killing blow.

[Anonymous No.22991044]

>>22990988
Literally nobody but the most retarded of Reddit atheists claims that monks didn't copy texts. σκιαμαχείς

[Anonymous No.22991057]

>>22991044
wow man how do you not see the obvious crystal clear relationship between an apocalyptic cult born in judaea in the first century and Europeans copying down things Greeks and Romans wrote? smfh, obviously, we owe the continued literacy in the WRE to said apocalyptic cult, you have to thank Saul the jew from Tarsus for raising us filthy gentiles from the mud

[Anonymous No.22991059]

>>22991031
Tbf it more or less survived in all the saints and shit, no? Protestantism was the real shift in the popular spiritual conception/experience.

[Anonymous No.22991066]

>>22979449
How many works of classical chinese texts are left after the cultural revolution went around the country destroying most related to past china? I hear a lot of ancient china fans become disillusioned with modern china when they visit it to further their studies.

[Anonymous No.22991072]

>>22991066
None were lost and we've discovered far more classical chinese manuscripts since then

[Anonymous No.22991094]

>>22991072
Well at least it good to hear their literature was spared, though highly doubt everything survived. I've been meaning to read those five famous classical chinese novels.

[Anonymous No.22991150]

>>22991066
The cultural revolution was an attack on intellectuals and public, visible symbols. The illiterate kids didn't even know the first thing about the classics in order to attack them.
The disillusionment of sinaboos comes from the stagnant, materialistic, extremely petty culture. What such people have often failed to realize before leaving home is that the 老百姓 of China have never been an enlightened bunch, and that Classical Chinese literary culture is one of the most elitist cultures ever to have existed. The PRC, with its mandarins far removed from a large, passive population, is not all that different from that historical Chinese culture. Just like then, it's probably the wisest move there to fuck off to the mountains and write poems.
God I miss my vacations in Yunnan.

[Anonymous No.22991154]

>>22991094
Heads up: 三國演義 is the only one in anything slightly classical. The rest are in something that my might justifiably be compared to Chaucerian English.

[Anonymous No.22991155]

>>22991057
>the continued literacy in the WRE
Are we supposed to believe that Romanized pre-Christian Iberians, Gauls, and Germanic tribesmen were as dedicated to the preservation of the written word as the Christian monks of the late classical and early medieval period? Is there any evidence to even back up such an assumption? Have we just completely rejected the idea that literacy was pushed into the Roman hinterlands by Christianity via the reading of Bible? Are we still falling for 19th century polemics that assert laymen weren’t allowed to read scripture until the 16th century?

[Anonymous No.22991162]

>>22991155
>Iberians, Gauls, and Germanic tribesmen were the only people in western Rome
>literacy? yup, they could only get that from converting to this hip new urban cult from judaea
total complete terminal brainrot, literally unable to understand the difference between a condition 'sine qua non' and an accidental one

[Anonymous No.22991206]

>>22991154
Don't some of them have elements of 半文半白?

[Anonymous No.22991240]

>>22991206
They all do, to some extent, but 三國 is the only one with what parses to me as mostly classical grammar.

[Anonymous No.22991248]

>>22991162
>pilpul this terrible
Cmon senpai.
The scribal tradition of half a dozen cities within the province of Italia is in no way comparable to the scribal tradition of medieval Christianity throughout all of Western Europe. You deliberately name dropped the WRE to distract from the fact that Italia was the only province in the WRE with a vibrant pre-Christian scribal tradition comparable to that of medieval Christendom. I’m not going to say the Romans didn’t attempt to enculturate their scribal obsessions onto the other western provinces. I’ve seen no evidence of that. What I will say is that Christianity is what ended up succeeding in accomplishing that feat. It’s reasonable to assert that Christianity ended up romanizing the WRE outside of Italia more than the Roman state ever did, and thus we ought to thank it for spreading the Classics farther than Rome ever could.

[Anonymous No.22991261]

>>22991248
>he still doesn't get the basic fucking point
just don't bother replying to me anymore, I can't stand down syndromed kids, I won't reply further either
I wonder if Arabs when talking to Iranians are also this arrogant claiming that the only reason why Persian texts survived is because of Muhammad(pbuh) and thus they owe them

[Anonymous No.22991313]

>>22991261
I accept your concession.

[Anonymous No.22991399]

>>22991007
>Are you happy, now it's being shit up by trannies arguing about Christianity instead of, you know. Classical languages.

Tremendously. It's tiresome scrolling past the CCP bug chasers' misty-eyed circle jerks over Ching Chang's "Romance of the Hidden Chamber".

[Anonymous No.22991420]

Boring

[Anonymous No.22991808]

I am personally a big fan of the /pol/-tier history arguments and shitty baiting of /clg/. Really gives me the feeling of being the sole sane man surrounded by retards.

[Anonymous No.22992104]

Christianity and its consequences have been a disaster for the west. It has made us weak and cucked. Just look at liberals undermining national security and border sovereignty because some mexican criminals might get cut on a barbed wire fence. Chistianity is a fucking disease, no other world culture acts like this towards its enemies. We should be ruthlessly slaughtering muslims and their families wholesale every time they launch a rocket at our ships. Instead christianity mind virus infected westerners cry about human rights. Why do show mercy when our enemies certainly wouldn't give us any if they had the power.

[Anonymous No.22992236]

>>22989746
no need to memorize. figure out the distinct shapes of each character and be able to recall them well.

[Anonymous No.22992346]

>>22991808
I knew this thread was going to be garbage from the moment the anti-chinese comment appeared.

[Anonymous No.22992509]

>>22992346
Cum liceret in hoc filo anglice scribere, tunc omnia bella passa est.

[Anonymous No.22992529]

>>22992509
don't you mean passa sunt?

[Anonymous No.22992552]

>>22992529
Graeci solunt hoc modo scribere, fortasse nimis graeciter est tibi, sed ut credo non prave sit

[Anonymous No.22992610]

>>22992552
patet te non graece loqui sed latine; in praecepta aliae linguae transponendo, ostendis quam cinaedior sis supervacuoque ostentas

[Anonymous No.22992614]

>>22992610
Si volo, hellenizo
Nos omnes non sunt Latii neque rustici

[Anonymous No.22992746]

>>22992509
I don't know Latin, yet I understood what you meant with no difficulties at all.
Composing in Greek is a pain, though.
Nevidha kusalam assa aññāya bhāsāya lekhitum na hi koci kiñci pajāneyya, Latinakovidā yeva kho ca alam honti kathāya ca panāham na imassa kovidomhi. Antamaso ettha ca me gavesitabbāni ahosi padāni na ca tāva imesam padānam attho paññātam bhavissati kissaci. Na hidam me attho bhavissati.

[Anonymous No.22992769]

>>22991059
Yeah I agree there was a sort of popular Christian-Paganism especially in the North but it didn't really have anything to do with Christianity on any theological level

[Anonymous No.22992790]

Greekanons, a question: is this the correct Attic pronunciation? It seems like he is not raising the pitch, but just applying stress to the vowels

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3tlBO3agFU

I don't know IPA but in diphthongs like οῖ he pronounces it like 'o - i' where I would pronounce it like 'oh - i'. It doesn't feel like there is any pitch at play in this video, or maybe I'm getting the wrong idea of pitch. My basis is like that of portuguese 'o' vs 'ó' for the non-accented vs acute differentiation.

[Anonymous No.22992802]

how do I improve my greek prose composition skills without a tutor? i would especially like to hear from anons who sometimes post here in greek.

[Anonymous No.22992808]

>>22992790
Podium Arts is the only decent audio resource I've been able to find on Attic Greek pronunciation. Also, there is a pitch, just a very subtle one. The problem with Daitz or Ranieri is that they completely overdo it.

[Anonymous No.22992812]

>>22992614
quanto magis graecaris tanto magis cinaedus fieris

[Anonymous No.22992822]

>>22992790
Portuguese accented vowels have different quality no?
ó is wider than unaccented o which is reduced to something closer to u
Shouldn't Attic vowel quality be independent of accent?

[Anonymous No.22992838]

>>22992790
I can see what you are saying in that it's not overdone or overdrawn, but the pitch is there and I think it's reasonably done. Not sure about οι, sounds fine to me.

[Anonymous No.22992842]

>>22986843
Any Hebros around? I only know a bit of Biblical and am in no position to answer that question myself.

[Anonymous No.22993182]

>>22992802
follow the models as closely as possible. it is not yet the time to be creative. Heinrich Schliemann said that he learned languages in such a way, even ancient Greek, and if a scholar had something to bad to say, he would refer them to the construction he used in a classical author.

[Anonymous No.22993223]

>>22992802
we ought to figure out a way to stimulate writing ITT using classical languages apart from isolated comments

[Anonymous No.22993289]

>>22993223
ὁμολογέω σἑ, ὦ Ἄνον.

[Anonymous No.22993298]

>>22993223
The problem is that this thread attracts only beginners. Once people learn enough to be able to read actual texts they leave the thread because it no longer has anything to offer them

[Anonymous No.22993326]

>>22993298
nah that ain't true, or it doesn't have to be so, the beginners come here because there's people with more experience and already at a good level who hang around and can teach them something or give tips, I see /clg/ as an agorá both for beginners and non beginners to share and chat about stuff; in this particularly case though it would be nice if non-beginners who are interested in composition could somewhat get a steady type of conversation of exercise going between themselves if anything

[Anonymous No.22993415]

>Stare iubes semper nostrum tibi, Lesbia, penem:
>crede mihi, non est mentula quod digitus.
>Tu licet et manibus blandis et uocibus instes,
>te contra facies imperiosa tua est
<You always order my penis to stand up for you, Lesbia. Believe me, a dick is not the same as a finger. You may try to force it with your sensual hands and words, but your bossy face is against you.
Martial is WILD and this isn't even his most savage one

[Anonymous No.22993527]

>>22993415
ayo wtf he do be like that tho

[Anonymous No.22993528]

>>22992838
>>22992822
>>22992808
Thanks, I can hear the difference more or less, and I think it makes sense. Seems I was really overdoing it. One thing I found a little weird was this:

> https://youtu.be/k3tlBO3agFU?si=T1Tw-UnXIlOHpnUH&t=52

Is he having too much fun or is this really how they would have pronounced it? I find it a little hard to believe in this particular phrase

[Anonymous No.22993557]

>>22993528
I think he's also trying to add a certain oratory style and 'impact' to it in line with what is being said. So maybe they did sound like that when trying to put emphasis on something. He's clearly not reciting neutrally but he's attempting to sound as if he were Socrates defending himself.

[Anonymous No.22993625]

>>22993415
Based. Can you post more?

[Anonymous No.22993659]

>Os et labra tibi lingit, Manneia, catellus.
>Non miror merdas si libet ēsse cani.
Your puppy licks your mouth and lips, Manneia. No wonder, dogs like to eat shit.

[Anonymous No.22993908]

>>22993557
I thought so, thanks. It just sounded a bit funny the first time

[Anonymous No.22994007]

In oppido Infinitus, ego et canem meum celer circum ambulamus oppidum dum ego aire olfacio.

"Cornelius," ego dico, "hodie, ierimus necare vir homosexualis."

"βαά!"

[Anonymous No.22994024]

>>22994007
You can reduce this greatly by seeing what is unnessary.
For example it is not necessary to say ego dico, because the form of dico is already first person, dico means ego dico, so you can just simply say dico

[Anonymous No.22994038]

>>22994024
Thank you anon. I'm currently learning Latin, so I can write my short story in that language.

[Anonymous No.22994039]

>>22994007
>"Cornelius," ego dico, "hodie, ierimus necare vir homosexualis."
You called your dog gay

[Anonymous No.22994089]

NOVVM
>>22994087
>>22994087
>>22994087

[Anonymous No.22994612]

Just a note for all you inductive exclusivists. Using inductive learning exclusively completely bars you from studying linguistics. Linguistics is all about terminology, grammar, dense textbooks, charts, science, etc. Linguistics, by the way, is how we know about etymology, the sound of the language at a certain time, etc.

[Anonymous No.22994712]

>>22993223
>>22993326
Nothing is stopping you from writing in Greek or Latin or what have you. If you want to then do it
You will not compel others to do so though. If you want Greek-only messaging go somewhere else.