/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.2296942]

ITT: Things in History that made you shed a tear.

For me it was the fall of Constantinople.

[listserv !!Wqo2DQRkhKC No.2296952]

The fate of the library of Alexandria. [Seriously, look at how brilliant some of the works of science and math are - how profound Euclid's influence has been. And just think if we could actually READ the 100+ plays be Aeschylus and Sophocles and Euripides...]

[Anonymous No.2296958]

Attack Of The Clones (2002).

[Anonymous No.2296959]

>>2296952

This is another one that gets me. Definitely.

[Anonymous No.2296963]

>>2296942

Oh god.

They were betrayed and left to fall to the Turk by the very countries they had been shielding from Islam.

Fucking Venice, man. Fucking Venice.

[VelvetCrow !0kY4lKysPM No.2296966]

-The execution of Lavoisier as portrayed by my Chemistry proffesor
Lavoisier says he is a man of science, to which they reply "The Republic doesn't need men of science".
-Dissolution of the Nazi Party, Nuremberg Trials, Holocaust.
-Tlatelolco's Massacre. Oct 2, 1968.

[Anonymous No.2296971]

>ITT: We whine about muslims

[Anonymous No.2296979]

>>2296952

This one is near the top. When you start to think of all the lost brilliant works, it brings out a certain curious sadness.

[Anonymous No.2296990]

the Socrates' death...


;_;

[Anonymous No.2296992]

The fact that constantine didn't chose to eradicate all remaining christians :(

[Anonymous No.2296996]

in after holocaust

[Anonymous No.2296999]

>>2296992

Constantine I?

Yeah, the Empire should have remained Pagan. Too bad Julian II the Apostate wasn't successful in restoring paganism.

[VelvetCrow !0kY4lKysPM No.2297004]

>>2296990

THIS.

[Anonymous No.2297005]

The life and failures of Nikola Tesla

[Anonymous No.2297002]

>>2296996

No you're not.

[Anonymous No.2297026]

The death of the brilliant Marie Curie.

>The damaging effects of ionizing radiation were not then known, and much of her work had been carried out in a shed, without proper safety measures. She had carried test tubes containing radioactive isotopes in her pocket and stored them in her desk drawer, remarking on the pretty blue-green light that the substances gave off in the dark.

[Anonymous No.2297044]

When the filthy rebels won their war against the Empire and made a nation of fat ignorant lazy fucks.

[Anonymous No.2297071]

>>2297044
ha, fuck you.
STARS AND STRIPES FOREVER

[Anonymous No.2297077]

illegal assassination of osama bin laden

shoulda took 'em to court.

[jackpot !!CaSBHxbw8pz No.2297083]

Partitions of Poland. I also love Teddy Roosevelt so much I cry about it sometimes.

[Anonymous No.2297092]

The decline of city-states and the rise of massive, unified nations.

[Anonymous No.2297094]

Now it's Istanbul, not Constantinople.

[Anonymous No.2297095]

decline of hunter-gathering. shit was so wandrous back then

[Anonymous No.2297100]

FDR passing away before he could implement his Second Bill of Rights.

[Anonymous No.2297103]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jixnM7S9tLw

Two great losses

[Anonymous No.2297104]

The triumph of Roman Catholicism over Egyptian Gnosticism.

Fuck that.

[Anonymous No.2297115]

The decline of the Medici from brilliant, cunning, cultured statesmen like Lorenzo the Magnificent and Cosimo I to fat corrupt Grand Dukes like Gian Gastone. And the decline of Renaissance Florence with them.

[Anonymous No.2297122]

>>2297094

;_; Filthy Turks

[Anonymous No.2297126]

>>2297094

Fun fact - Istanbul is Turkish for Constantinople.

[Anonymous No.2297148]

The death of so many great men under the roman empire killed only for jealousy and suspicion.

Seneca and Cicero come to mind, but in the latter stages, anyone who had any bit of spine and were actually trying to help the dying empire was killed due to petty squables. It's sickening.

[Anonymous No.2297152]

>>2297126
>>2297094
It'll always be Byzantium to me

[Anonymous No.2297159]

>>2297115
This. So much this.

[Anonymous No.2297181]

>>2297152

Me, too.

[Anonymous No.2297283]

Constantine XI Palaiologos died in a desperate last stand with his most loyal soldiers defending the gates of Constantinople long enough for the citizens to escape. He cast off his insignias and symbols of office so that he could die as one of his men, in defence of Rome.

So fell the Last Roman Emperor.

[Anonymous No.2297289]

>>2297077
FUCKING THIS.

We should have given him his day in court, and then hung him from the statue of liberty.

[listserv !!Wqo2DQRkhKC No.2297292]

>>2297148
Oh, you just reminded me: the way Ovid was treated under Augustus has always seemed depressing to me. I don't know anyone who feels the same way though. Their much-merited love for Augustus seems always to provoke them to shrug it off. But I still for Ovid, man...

[Anonymous No.2297297]

The USSR becoming a police state.

[Anonymous No.2297426]

>>2297126
That's nobody's business but the Turks'.

[Anonymous No.2297459]

>>>When you start to think of all the lost brilliant works, it brings out a certain curious sadness.

I saw Susan Buck-Morss give a lecture on archives in which the destruction of libraries was central. It's funny people get all wrinkly eyed about Alexandria, but nobody knows about Alamut, which also had an impressive library and was sacked and burned. Sentimental bibliophiles (not a bad thing, just not my thing).

History weighs upon one like the earth upon Atlas' shoulders.

I get more broken up about Pinochet's coup, the carpet bombing of Cambodia, and the Middle Passage, the fall of the Paris Commune, Franco's victory in Spain, the defeat of the Mahknovists in Russia during the revolution, the death of Gustav Landauer.

[Anonymous No.2297463]

>>2297077
to hell with osama bin laden, illegal assassination of anwar al-awlaki

[Anonymous No.2297472]

The outbreak of World War I. So unnecessary & so destructive, not just in lives but in terms of the demise of a culture and in terms of the damage done to civilization, and of course in terms of the eventual outbreak of World War II with all that brought with it

Of course the Holocaust but that almost goes without saying.

[listserv !!Wqo2DQRkhKC No.2297477]

>>2297472
The Battle of Paschendale (I don't know how to spell it) baffles me every time I think about it: a bunch of people drowning in mud trying to kill each other - ending in a stalemate.

That war...

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.2297496]

>>2297094
>>2297126
It means "the city" So its just an unnameable place for them
>>2297152
That was just the little town it once was. Fine enough shorthand name, but its still Constantinople.

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.2297510]

>>2297463
Questionable assassination of Anwar al-Awlaki
But I'm still more concerned for our nutty nancy-boy national hero, Bradly Manning.

[Anonymous No.2297516]

>>2297510

This. If they kill him, it's out and into the streets for me.

[Anonymous No.2297522]

>>2296999

>Knows nothing about late paganism.
>Probably hasn't even read the remaining fragments of Julian's work.
>Wouldn't think Iamblichan neoplatonism was any cooler than Christianity.

[Anonymous No.2297523]

>>2297510
what precisely makes it even questionable?

[Anonymous No.2297530]

The holocaust

The ghost dance

The death of hypatia

the siege of munster, though thinking about it that was also kind of creepy and cool.

[Anonymous No.2297533]

Belisarius getting his eyes plucked out and forced to become a homeless beggar.

[Anonymous No.2297534]

>>2297516
There's no way in hell Manning will be killed. He'll rot in a prison cell for life and we will forget him.

[Anonymous No.2297536]

>>2297510
The gov't is being too lenient to him for betraying his country. He should be executed on the spot.

[Anonymous No.2297537]

>>2297533

There's absolutely no evidence of that until the high middle ages. Most modern historians believe it to be apocryphal, and based on the best Byzantine sources, I'd agree.

[Anonymous No.2297539]

Robert E. Lee's surrender in the Civil War. Not only did he have to give up his dignity to an army he left in favor of his homeland, but he lost absolutely everything. The American Civil War is just fucking crushing.

[Anonymous No.2297540]

>>2297522

>could possibly air his knowledge in a slightly less cunty fashion

[Anonymous No.2297546]

>>2297539

[Anonymous No.2297548]

>>2297534

At least he'll have access to all the cock he wants.

Also, manning =useful idiot. The whole wikileaks thing has CIA grey ops propagranda written all over it

[Anonymous No.2297550]

The fall of the Spanish Republic to the fascists genuinely makes me sad, as does the defeat of the KPD in 1919

[Anonymous No.2297556]

>>2297540

>Probably sick & tired of people having no idea what they are talking about going HURR DURR JULIAN, MAN.
>Gets this all the time when people find out about his academic specialty.
>Can react on 4chan in a way that would be socially inappropriate at dinner parties.

[Anonymous No.2297558]

>>2297550

The post–civil war collective punishment of Catalonia was wrong, but damn if the Republicans weren't worse.

[Anonymous No.2297561]

WHEN SYMPATHY FOR ABORIGINALS 'HORRID' TREATMENT EVENTUATED IN THEM HOLDING OUR GOVERNMENT BY THE BALLS.

THEY NEVER HAVE TO WORK A DAY IN THEIR LIVES AND CAN GET BY JUST FINE

[Anonymous No.2297563]

>>2297539
that's he gets for supporting a tumor on america. and need i remind you that grant's surrender terms were generous as fuck

[Anonymous No.2297565]

>>2297563
that's what he gets*

[Anonymous No.2297571]

>>2297550

This.

[Anonymous No.2297572]

>>2297558
The republicans were worse if you're a priest or a landowner yeah but fuck the first and second estate anyway u feel me

[Anonymous No.2297575]

>>2297556

>dusty old book groper
>clearly jealous of Julian's swag and hot wife

[Anonymous No.2297576]

>>2297556
Julian was still pretty cool, even if late paganism was already over-bearingly neo-platonic, and very similar to christianity in many ways.

I would've loved an emperor like Marcus Aurelius towards the end of Rome, a firm promotor of stoicism against both late pagans and christians would've been interesting. Too bad even for a stoic he was awfully concerned for divination and sacrifice.

I think the saddest moment in roman history is when the bishop of Rome gained enough power to overshadow the emperor, all things went downhill very fast from there. Bye bye cohesion. I can't remember the Bishop nor the emperor, but there is one definite case, I think it's St. Atanasius who was involved in that. Maybe he was the bishop.

[Anonymous No.2297579]

>>2297576
>me again
No, it was Ambrose, Atanasius was in Alexandria.

[Anonymous No.2297584]

A lot of things from the second world war. what a waste, what a triumph, what a tragedy.

And hearing about the scope of the losses, this one excerpt from wikipedia really did it for me, right at the end.

"When forces of the German 6th Army launched their attack against the city centre of Stalingrad on 13 September 1942, Mamayev Kurgan (appearing in military maps as "Height 102.0") saw particularly fierce fighting between the German attackers and the defending soldiers of the Soviet 62nd Army. Control of the hill became vitally important, as it offered control over the city. To defend it, the Soviets had built strong defensive lines on the slopes of the hill, composed of trenches, barbed-wire and minefields. The Germans pushed forward against the hill, taking heavy casualties. When they finally captured the hill, they started firing on the city centre, as well as on the railway station Stalingrad-1 under the hill. They captured the railway station on 14 September 1942...

[Anonymous No.2297588]

>>2297584
cont.

"On the same day, the Soviet 13th Guards Rifle Division commanded by Alexander Rodimtsev arrived in the city from the east side of the river Volga under heavy German artillery fire. The division's 10,000 men immediately rushed into the battle. On 16 September they recaptured Mamayev Kurgan and kept fighting for the railway station, taking heavy losses. By the following day, almost all of them had died. The Soviets kept reinforcing their units in the city as fast as they could. The Germans assaulted up to twelve times a day, and the Soviets would respond with fierce counter-attacks.

The hill changed hands several times. By 27 September, the Germans again captured half of Mamayev Kurgan. The Soviets held their own positions on the slopes of the hill, as the 284th Rifle Division defended the key stronghold. The defenders held out until 26 January 1943, when the Soviet winter offensive relieved them, trapping and destroying the German forces inside Stalingrad.

When the battle ended, the soil on the hill had been so thoroughly churned by shellfire and mixed with metal fragments that it contained between 500 and 1,250 splinters of metal per square meter. The earth on the hill had remained black in the winter, as the snow kept melting in the many fires and explosions. In the following spring the hill would still remain black, as no grass grew on its scorched soil. The hill's formerly steep slopes had become flattened in months of intense shelling and bombardment. Even today, it is possible to find fragments of bone and metal still buried deep throughout the hill."

[Anonymous No.2297586]

the muslim conquest of persia or probably even the rise of islam. i can't help but wonder how much better the world would be without islam.

[Anonymous No.2297591]

>>2297576

Ambrose was in Milan, but he made Theodosius make a religious submission. Because maybe you should be barred from Church until you make penance for slaughtering 7,000 people.

The actual emergence of the Roman Church as a secular power didn't happen for centuries afterward.

The problem wasn't the neoplatonism, it was the lack of intellectual creativity and the confusion of philosophy with magical practice. Christianity, whatever else one might think of it, was able to preserve the independence (indeed, expand it) of philosophy in a way late paganism could not.

Even Plotinus and Porphyry were not as intellectually engaging as some contemporary Christians. Also, what is fascinating about Porphyry's work against the Christians is that he mostly offers specifically theological critiques. Critiques which, when he didn't misunderstand the existing answers, were given satisfying answers in the coming centuries. We like to imagine ancient philosophers as independent of religion in some sense, but the ancients saw them as complementary, as "sects" themselves. Even Stoicism, which had its own impact on Christianity, especially in the area of ethics. (Ambrose in particular shows the mark of a deep Stoic education.)

[Anonymous No.2297596]

>>2297586
Over the past 2000 years, more people have been killed in the name of the Christian god than the Islam god. Islam has only been shitting up the world for the past few hundred years.

[Anonymous No.2297600]

All things considered, I think >>2296952
is probably one of the greatest tragedies to ever occur.

[Anonymous No.2297603]

>>2297536
They tortured Manning...

[Anonymous No.2297604]

>>2297596
unfortunately those past few hundred years overlaps quite significantly with my life. it isn't like reading about dudes in the past slaying people in a desert far away from here, both in time and distance.

[Anonymous No.2297605]

>>2297596

Why are you distinguishing the god? They both worship the God of Abraham.

[Anonymous No.2297610]

I think about how much different the world would have been if something relatively small was changed, like if Trotsky took power instead of Stalin. USSR would have intervened (like Trotsky wanted) or at the very least sent supplies and soldiers to the German communists in their 1918 revolution, which means no Nazi party, no World War II, no state of Israel, no Arab-West conflict

The entire world would be different

[Anonymous No.2297613]

>>2297600

I'm not a big fan of the author, but this is great on understanding the modern myth versus the actuality:

The part beginning here is the relevant part: "The Great Library of Alexandria is one of the more fascinating mysteries of late antique civilization. It enters history already as something largely legendary."

My guess is that the library was something substantial, but probably had significant chunks given away as gifts and lost to normal wear throughout the Ptolemaic period.

[Anonymous No.2297614]

>>2297605

Religion can't be blamed for the bloodshed. The explicit teachings of Christianity are love your neighbour, turn the other cheek, do unto others etc and people have still managed to square that with war and murder

politics, power, and economics motivate wars.

GW Bush was bombing people to make them deomcratic and free within the last ten years. Secular humanism will serve just as well as a figleaf for butchery if the political will is there.

[Anonymous No.2297616]

>>2297605
Christians vehemently deny being in any way affiliated with Muslims and Muslims in turn look at Christians as infidels. Reading the 3 texts that each religion defines itself as portrays entirely different views of the same god.

>>2297604
Just pointing out from a historical standpoint, Christians have the title of biggest assholes to have ever lived.

[Anonymous No.2297617]

>>2297613
That's a good perspective on the Library. We miss it, and idealize it so much because we cannot see how mundane it is in reality.

[Anonymous No.2297619]

>>2297613

forgot the link: >>2297613

forgot the link: http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2010/06/the-perniciously-persistent-myths-of-hypatia-and-the-
great-library

[Anonymous No.2297621]

>>2297614

Obama was bombing people to be democratic and free within the last six months…

[Anonymous No.2297622]

>>2297610

If the Russians had intervened in germany there would have been a huge white reaction. Europe was destined for another war because the action in WWI didn't fully resolve any of the social or poltical issues that brought it about

[Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ No.2297624]

>>2297536
I don't know what country you think you're living in, buddy, but that man is a simple whistle blower on a horrible crime. You think Ellsberg should be killed too?

>>2297603
I don't think so, but being locked up for so long without charges is too too shady.

[Anonymous No.2297631]

>>2297616

>Christians have the title of biggest assholes to have ever lived.

Pound for pound the worst assholes have all been pagans or atheists imo.

My top 5:

1: The Aztecs
2: The Khmer Rouge
3: The Nazis
4: The Spartans
5: The Scythians

[Anonymous No.2297636]

>>2297631
My top 5 assholes of the world:

1. Mongols
2. Mongols
3. Mongols
4. Mongols
5. Mongols

[Anonymous No.2297639]

>>2297636
The Mongols were fucking awesome, actually

[Anonymous No.2297642]

>>2297616
>Christians have the title of biggest assholes to have ever lived.

To be fair, it had a 700 year head-start on Islam. Islam will catch it at this rate.

[Anonymous No.2297644]

Seconding Socrates' death and the loss of the Library of Alexandria. The loss of most of the Greek tragedies, most of Ab Urbe Condita, probably a lot more I haven't even heard of.
Shit sucks :/

[Anonymous No.2297647]

>>2297636


The mongols were warriors, not twisted psychopaths.

All those gooks wanted to do was ride

[Anonymous No.2297646]

>>2297631
The Aztecs were wiped out by Spanish Christian missionaries. Hell, most of the American peoples were wiped out by Christians. Hundreds of cultures destroyed because they didn't believe the same thing. Not familiar enough with the Khmer or Scythians to make any comment. Spartans were pretty shitty people. Hitler used Christianity in his rise to power. Specifically placing the blame of the death of Christ on the Jews.

And that's not counting the Crusades, the Inquisition and all the other atrocities committed in the name of Christianity.

[Anonymous No.2297648]

>>2297596
I don't think the people killed in the name of the Christian god are as important as, say, the part Christianity played in the downfall of Rome.

[Anonymous No.2297649]

>>2297644

Socrates, so noble.

But I gotta give Aristotle props when he leaves Athens, "lest the Athenians sin twice against philosophy".

[Anonymous No.2297650]

>>2297631
>3: The Nazis

Hold up there bro. I hope you aren't implying Nazi's were atheist.

[Anonymous No.2297651]

>>2297644
I can't see Socrates' death as a tragedy or wish that it hadn't happened. For one thing, he was quite old. For another thing, his death is one of the most important events in the history of Western philosophy.

[Anonymous No.2297653]

>>2297610

Funny I was going to write "the death of Trotsky" but I changed my mind. I was more sentimentally attached to Landauer, who was one of the leaders of Germany's 1918 almost revolution.

[Anonymous No.2297654]

>>2297647
>All those gooks wanted to do was ride

>China's face when those gooks kept riding over and trying to ineffectually run the middle kingdom

[Anonymous No.2297656]

I literally can't understand how anyone would dislike the Mongols. They were awesome as shit. Jesus, guys.

[Anonymous No.2297658]

>>2297646
>Hell, most of the American peoples were wiped out by Christians

Christians who go by the name of smallpox?

[Anonymous No.2297661]

>>2297646

>The Aztecs were wiped out by Spanish Christian missionaries.

They were wiped out by a combination of things. Crushed under the wheels of history.

Disease was the biggest killer of native americans.

What the christians did was horrible, exploitative etc. But qualitatively, the Aztecs treated their subject peoples worse.

[Anonymous No.2297667]

>>2297656
>Rape and pillage most of the known world multiple times
>Murder and torture innocent people by the tens of thousands
>Contribute almost nothing to science, engineering, literature or art in the process

I wonder why.

[Anonymous No.2297669]

>>2297658
Ok, so I exaggerated that one a bit. Regardless, hundreds of cultures were destroyed by conversion methods and the US government just being major dicks.

[Anonymous No.2297670]

>>2297650

They weren't Christian.

[Anonymous No.2297671]

>>2297651
Yes, he was old, but my understanding is that he was put to death under charges of "corrupting the youth" or something, essentially because the aristocracy didn't like what he had to say, even though he was quite reasonable. (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a little shaky on this.) I think those circumstances make his death tragic.

[Anonymous No.2297679]

>>2297661
Qualitatively, you're right. I'm looking at it through a quantitative scope. Over a longer range of time, Christianity has been the more negative of the two.

[Anonymous No.2297678]

I bet Mongolian people are proud that back in history their ancestors trolled pretty much the whole of Eurasia.

[Anonymous No.2297680]

>>2297622
I know but the KPD tried to resolve this social and political issue with revolution, and the Nazis used the bureaucratic way, I don't think World War II would have taken place without the Nazis. The Italians weren't too agitated they were just feeling ballsy, and I'm sure any conflict with Japan would just be local clashes with whatever native population Japan is colonizing. The US may have gotten involved but it would be a purely trade-related war and wouldn't have been as bloody as it was

[Anonymous No.2297682]

>>2297639
As a % of global population, Genghis Khan was the most prolific mass murderer in history.

[Anonymous No.2297683]

>>2297671
Tragic, but noble. And ultimately, in the scale of history, not much was lost, and the shape of history would have been much different if he had died peacefully

Also, the question of why precisely he was put to death is not as obvious as it seems. The charges were indeed something like corrupting the youth and not believing in the gods of the city. But the question of whether he was corrupting the youth, and what it means to corrupt the youth, and whether he believed in the gods of the city - all of these are basically questions about the philosophy of Socrates. It doesn't help that we have almost no record of his trial, certainly no reliable one, since those who recorded it (Plato and Xenophon) were both philosophically inclined friends of Socrates. So answering those questions is essentially a philosophical statement.

[Anonymous No.2297684]

>>2297661
Inca's were assholes too. The Inca emperor made his own brothers watch while his kids and wives were tortured, raped and killed in front of him before then killing him and making his scull into a drinking mug. Now that's an asshole.

[Anonymous No.2297685]

>>2297667
>>2297682
Yes, but they did it awesomely, and were upright, decent for the times, competent, egalitarian, extraordinarily brave, extraordinarily able.

[Anonymous No.2297686]

I don't get why people would be sad over Socrate's death. He basically martyred himself for a) the lulz and b) fame. He provoked the sentence, refused to flee when given the chance, etc. Fuck him. He wanted to die.

[Anonymous No.2297689]

The Cretan Bull.

Jesus wept.

[Anonymous No.2297690]

>>2297685
>Yes, but they did it awesomely, and were upright, decent for the times, competent, egalitarian, extraordinarily brave, extraordinarily able.

>decent for the times
>egalitarian
>mongol tribes

WHAT IN THE FUCK AM I READING.png.jpeg.tiff.gif

The Chinese were chilling out making porcelain, drinking tea, writing classical novels, and studying for their civil service exams in the 1200s.

The mongols were drinking the blood of their horses when they got thirsty.

[Anonymous No.2297692]

>>2297690
Yes. Like fucking ballers, not like elitist bureaucrat fucks.

[Anonymous No.2297693]

Women's Suffrage

Wrong on so many levels

[Anonymous No.2297694]

>>2297670
"The German census of May 1939 indicates that 54 percent of Germans considered themselves Protestant and 40 percent considered themselves Catholic, with only 3.5 percent claiming to be neo-pagan "believers in God," and 1.5 percent unbelievers. This census came more than six years into the Hitler era."

94% Christian. "God is with us" was on the buckles of the Nazi uniform.

[Anonymous No.2297695]

>>2297686

Yes, he was basically attention seeking.

[Anonymous No.2297697]

>>2297671
The charges were corrupting youth and insulting the gods or something like that. But they were actually politically motivated because one of Socrate's most prominent students Critias was one of the leaders of the thirty tyrants. The Athenians were obviously kinda pissed about that. Also he wanted it. He was a douche about the entire trial:

>Socrates, after expressing his surprise of the little amount he needed to be have been found innocent, jokingly suggested free meals at the Prytaneum, a particular honor held for city benefactors and winners at the Olympic Games

And then refused to escape when he could've.

Don't feel bad for Socrates.

[Anonymous No.2297698]

>>2297686
>>2297697
socrates' martyring himself was basically a philosophical action, it wasn't attention seeking. i don't know how you can get on a dude for attempting to live by the principles he espoused.

[Anonymous No.2297700]

The crucifixion of Jesus.

[Anonymous No.2297705]

>>2297694

>94% Christian.

That's Germany, not the NASDAP

>"God is with us" was on the buckles of the Nazi uniform.

And they wrote "work make free" above the gates at Auschwitz and called themselves socialists too.

The Nazis weren't clearly this, that or anything except ruthless, power crazy, paranoid and death obsessed. Their ideology was chameleonic.

[Anonymous No.2297708]

>>2297698
Maybe because his principles were mainly to be a cock to others

[Anonymous No.2297713]

>>2297705
at the same time, the odds make it extremely likely that most nsdap members were christians, of a sort. indeed, it seems likely that hitler was a christian of a particular, heterodox, mystical / theosophist sort. ofc, attributing their enormous crimes either to their atheism or religiousness is idiotic. whether they were religious or not does not matter. it was not at the root of their crimes.

[Anonymous No.2297716]

>>2297708
>try to determine what the good is through discussion with others, and live well
>abide by the law, not only when it's convenient to you

what are you talking about mate

[Anonymous No.2297724]

>>2297713

>attributing their enormous crimes either to their atheism or religiousness is idiotic.

Yes, but anon said Christians were the biggest assholes in history and I'd be hesitant to put the Nazis in the Christian bracket. Like the French revolutionaries and the Soviets they strike me as post-Christian, ideologically.

>whether they were religious or not does not matter. it was not at the root of their crimes.

Yes. Absolutely.

[Anonymous No.2297727]

>>2297724
its more complicated w/ the nazis than with the french or the soviets, because the latter groups were explicitly, almost radically, atheistic. the nazis, however, frequently at least claimed to be religious or christian, even tho none of their philosophy was particularly christian. i would accept your characterization, more or less.

[Anonymous No.2297728]

>>2297705
>The Nazis weren't clearly this, that or anything except ruthless, power crazy, paranoid and death obsessed.

Are you really using the, "they weren't Christians because they were bad" argument? In 2012? Get the fuck out.

[Anonymous No.2297729]

>>2297724
The point I was making is that Hitler used religion as a means to his ends. Had the Germans not been such a religious group of people, he would've had to rely on something else to come to power.

[Anonymous No.2297732]

>>2297729
Haha.

[Anonymous No.2297735]

>>2297729
i don't think religiosity or christianity was a particularly significant part of hitler's appeal in post-war germany at all, actually. it had much more to do with extreme nationalism and things like the stab-in-the-back myth than with any kind of religious motivation. what's your source for this claim?

[Anonymous No.2297738]

>>2297728

>Are you really using the, "they weren't Christians because they were bad" argument?

No, I'm not. You read that into my post.

[Anonymous No.2297739]

>>2297735
>>2297735
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_views
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_aspects_of_Nazism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism_and_religion

Yeah, yeah I know Wikipedia is a bad source, but check out the references and notes.

[listserv !!Wqo2DQRkhKC No.2297741]

>>2297735
This. Germans have always had a strong national identity embedded into their culture. Christianity wasn't much of a unifying force in Germany. Hell, the Grimm brothers were probably more effective in getting the Germans worked up. Hitler played at that sort of pride as well as being able to use Jews as scapegoats for Germany's problems.

[Anonymous No.2297744]

This thread was fun until it turned into a gay argument about Nazis.

[listserv !!Wqo2DQRkhKC No.2297750]

>>2297739
Yes, most of the Germans were Christian. And Hitler was Catholic, I believe. But their religion was not much of a key characteristic during the Nazi movement. I mean, this is the early 20th century so anything in Europe involves Christianity. But it certainly wasn't one of the most important factors in the development of Nazi Germany.

[Anonymous No.2297751]

>>2297739
first, wikipedia is a particularly bad source for any position that atheists or apologists might want to advocate, just sayin

second, i'm not asking whether or not national socialism had religious characteristics, i'm asking if those characteristics were a significant part of the reason people voted for them. i think the christianness or un-christianness of the nsdap was fairly immaterial; their appeal was for other reasons. in other words, it's wrong to say that hitler was appealing to religious sentiments. it's a misunderstanding of the nature of national socialist ideology.

[Anonymous No.2297753]

>>2297727

YEs, it's always mnore complicated with the Nazis. Very diffifult to cleatrly pigeonhole them. They were authoritarian and hated jews, but much beyond that things get muddy. Revolutionary, yet conservative. Mass based, but backed by the elite. Left wing in some ways, in others right. In some respects religious; atheistic, or at least non-Christian in others.

[listserv !!Wqo2DQRkhKC No.2297757]

>>2297744
Wow, I just scrolled up. That's been going on for a while, huh?

[Anonymous No.2297758]

>>2297751

This.

And let that be a line under the Nazi debate.

This thread is now about other assholes:

[Anonymous No.2297759]

>>2297753
they're harder to categorize than to comprehend, and the difficulty of categorizing them has more to do with the insufficiency of our categories than anything else imo

in other words, it's not that they're so hard to categorize, it's more that we're using really shitty categories. usually built around false dichotomies.

[Anonymous No.2297761]

>>2297744
Rule 1 of /lit/: if you gather them all into a room, the conversation will always (ALWAYS) degenerate into an argument about Hitler being a good guy

[Anonymous No.2297764]

>>2297759

interesting point. how would you categorize them?

[Anonymous No.2297769]

>>2297764
we're so far off topic honestly that the only thing i'm going to say here is Read Hannah Arendt

someone make a post about something that's tragic or regrettable in human history, quick

[Anonymous No.2297780]

Hai guys. What's happening here?

[Anonymous No.2297783]

BACK ON TOPIC

The Gallipoli Campaign is one of the biggest fuck–ups of the biggest fuck–up in European history, WWI.

Rather than let Russia gain the post–war advantage of controlling the Bosporus, Britain prevented Russian naval help during the campaign (fearing they'd take Constantinople and never give it back) and doomed the operation to failure, cutting off Russia from Black Sea supplies, causing the shortages that helped spark the Revolution and prevent a conclusive ending to the war in general and to top it all off FUCKING AIRPLANES WERE GONNA MAKE THE MEDITERRANEAN AND THE BLACK SEA NEAR–IRRELEVANT IN A FEW YEARS, ANYHOW YOU LIMEY DICKSLAPS, THE WRITING WAS ON THE GODDAMN WALL.

[Anonymous No.2297788]

>>2297783
Wasn't Gallipoli Churchill's baby?

[Anonymous No.2297789]

>>2297788

Yup. From the terrible operational support down to the diplomatic gaming of the Russkies.

[Anonymous No.2297791]

>>2297789
Yeah, the whole thing with the Russians really seems like Churchill's style.

[Anonymous No.2297792]

I've heard it said that leaving aside the horrors of WWI the Belgian Congo was as close as it has ever come to hell on earth, but imo the goings on there were pretty armless.

[Anonymous No.2297794]

>>2297791

The Russians really should have said, "Fuck you, let's win this thing", but, well, you know…

[Anonymous No.2297797]

I wonder what China would have been like under Chiang Kai Shek instead of Mao. Would it just have been like Taiwan?

No cultural revolution, no Sino-Soviet split, no need for ping pong diplomacy; just about 80 years head start on capitalism and democracy.

[Anonymous No.2297803]

>>2297797
wasn't taiwan pretty terrible for a long time, though? like, basically a rightist military dictatorship until the mid-80s. the nationalists in china were hardly awesome dudes. not as bad as mao probably, but not exemplars of virtue.

[Anonymous No.2297807]

>>2297803
You're correct, but those nationalists perpetrated a lot of their initial hostility upon the natives that inhabited Taiwan, partially in frustration at losing their grip of the mainland. The rightist military dictatorship thing can also be explained by its diminished position as a splinter cell. Sort of an insecurity born out of being the size of Taiwan next to a country the size of China.

[Anonymous No.2297810]

The kiling of Archimedes.

All he wanted was to maths

[Anonymous No.2297812]

>>2297810
He was graffiti-ing the fucking Earth. That's a pretty dick move.

[Anonymous No.2297814]

>>2297810
;_;

Young man, you are stepping on my circle.

[Anonymous No.2297844]

What is everyone in this threads favorite history course to take? I want to get into history and know nothing about it. I feel like I would benefit more from being forced to learn it than flexibly

[Anonymous No.2297846]

Joan of Arc, especially when Leonard Cohen talks about her.

[Anonymous No.2297857]

>>2297636
Butthurt sandnigger/chink detected

[Anonymous No.2297859]

>>2297844
ive never taken a history course

wait i tell a lie i took a course on italian humanism, it was cool. but most of this i just pick up from reading a bunch.

[Stradlater !!iwUBihX3yR3 No.2297866]

The execution of St Thomas More. I always sympathize with him.

[Anonymous No.2297874]

the entire retardation of today's youth. seeing children depresses me because i know they're all going to grow up to be pieces of shit

[Anonymous No.2297879]

>>2297636
YEA FUCKIN RIGHT BRO MONGOLS WERE THE BEST. their decline into shit makes me sad
well not really a decline, just a lack of progress into the modern age

[Anonymous No.2297891]

The destruction of The Grand Library of Baghdad. The Fall of Yugoslavia from a personal standpoint. The Conversion of Pagans into Christianity.

[Anonymous No.2297898]

>spent most of my undergraduate studies immersed in the holocaust and the armenian genocide
>intensively researched the Huguenot Massacres and persecutions for my PhD.
>had a nervous breakdown in the third year of my PhD, couldn't do anything for a year. Quit history forever.

True story. I'm not the only one either - my PhD supervisor now specialises in the history of food, says he's done his tour of duty.

[Anonymous No.2297902]

>>2297898
>spent most of my childhood immersed in the holocaust
>intensively survived the gassing and persecutions for my life.
>had a nervous breakdown in the third year of Auschwitz, couldn't do anything for a year. Quit death camp forever.

[Anonymous No.2297907]

>>2297902
10/10

[Anonymous No.2297919]

>>2297902

You're hilarious.

I think what actually tipped me over was when I found paperwork for a load of people who had the same name as my grandmother who were rounded up in Holland a year before the end of the war. None of them got out of the camps.

The idea that if my gran hadn't fallen out with her family in the 1930s and gone to Britain, she'd have been with them in sobibor was pretty mindfucking.

Carry on with the holocaust gags though - maybe you'll know one I haven't heard before.

[Anonymous No.2297923]

>The Nazis
> Atheist

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[Anonymous No.2297924]

>>2297919
Saddest moment for me is when Hitler didn't get to kill more filthy jews.

[Anonymous No.2297928]

>>2297924

>thinks my family are jews.
>imagines anyone will be butthurt by such shit-tier trolling

have another go. I've got about quarter of an hour.

[Anonymous No.2297929]

An old Jewish fellow wins 1.5 million on the lottery. He is being interviewed on TV, when he asked what he plans to do with the money.
"Well," he says, "Half a million I'm going to give to my synagogue as it needs some work doing to it."
The interviewer asks, "What about the rest?"
The old Jew says, "Another half a million I'm going to give to a local Jewish summer camp, so the kids can have a nice place to stay in the summer."
The interviewer asks, "Great! And what about the rest?"
"Oh, I'm going to give that to the nazi party!" he replied.
"What? Why would a Jew give money to the nazi party?"
The old Jew rolled up his sleeve, points to a tattoo and say's, "Zey are the ones that gave me my lucky numbers!"

Thank you, thank you. I'm here all week. Tip your waiter

[Anonymous No.2297931]

>>2297919
So you had an emotional breakdown because some people who you didn't even know, who might have been distantly related to you, died in the holocaust?

And to be fair, the guy you're replying to isn't really making a holocaust gag, he's simply pointing out silly you sound.

[Anonymous No.2297932]

>>2297919
A tragedy she didn't go.

[Anonymous No.2297938]

>>2297928
you still do me proud my child.

[Anonymous No.2297940]

>>2297929

Hehe, that's actually pretty funny.

>>2297931

Yup - and I'm not the only one either. I know a chick who works in the translation booths in the Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, and loads of them have suffered with PTSD from the stuff they've been translating. They have an on-site shrink, and really strict rules about how much work they can do on any one thing.

When you deal all day every day in the numbers and the realities of what happened, it gets under your skin. Plus when you're doing a PhD you're working far too hard for far too long anyway (a lot of people flip out during graduate studies), then it becomes to much.

No idea why I'm giving anyone on 4chan a serious answer, I must be tired.

[Anonymous No.2297942]

>>2297932

Possibly, although she was a midwife, so all the mothers she helped during labour may disagree.

And you can stop the jew stuff - my family were Dutch communists and they were gassed for participation in the resistance. My gran's uncle shot a nazi and they took the whole family.

[Anonymous No.2297943]

I bawwed like a faggot walking round the jewish museum in Vienna. they rounded up all these nice, normal, talented middleclass people and kiled them. When you see their pictures and personal effects close up it hits home what happened. It wasn;t like they were savages out there or anything, just normal white first world people. Frightening business. Especially when you consider how nice the Germans generally are on a personal basis.

Still, WWII was so bad it really cannot happen again.

[Anonymous No.2297945]

>>2297940

[Anonymous No.2297948]

>>2297940
Show bellybutton and go to bed, anon.

[Anonymous No.2297949]

>>2297942
Too bad. So sad.

[Anonymous No.2297951]

>>2297943
But it will. What do you think everybody said about WWI? About Rwanda? We got WWII and the Holocaust, and the Congo War, which, I'll have you know, is happening right now.

It'll happen.

[Anonymous No.2297952]

>>2297942

[Anonymous No.2297956]

>>2297951

You missed out yugoslavia - it's happened in Europe in the last 20 years.

[Anonymous No.2297958]

>>2297956
>>2297951

[Anonymous No.2297961]

>>2297951

Africa =/= Europe.

Yugoslavia was miniscule in scale compared to WWII.

[Anonymous No.2297966]

>>2297961
Human atrocity on a massive scale=Human atrocity on a massive scale.

This isn't a top ten list.

[Anonymous No.2297968]

>>2297951

DRC isn't too bad now. Well, relative to how it was. I was there for my work last year, and things are trying to normalise.

Sudan is a nightmare, but nobody can organise themselves enough to get a proper genocide going. The worst thing is that these things always seem to come up in the unlikeliest places. Rwanda seemed fine until some lunatic came on the radio talking about cockroaches and the next thing you know, they're macheteing kids in the street.

Same with Germany. Pre-hitler, France and Britain were far more anti-semitic. Nobody would have expected the germans to target the jews. This is why there were so many jews in the country: jews fleeing persecution elsewhere thought that Germany was the safest haven.

I'm glad god didn't choose my people. Cos he seems to proper enjoy trolling the hebrews.

[Anonymous No.2297975]

>>2297968
tomorrow's headline: Samoans rounded up for mass killing by Canadian military.

[Anonymous No.2297976]

>>2297966

Yes, but humanity is moving past massacre and genocide and moving into a new age. WWII was the paroxysm that marked the end of era. Nuclear weapons are the aegis beneath which world peace will be built. Though it will take a few hundred years.

Africa is backward in every respect and will take longer to get there.

What happened in yugoslavia was fall out from pre-Soviet times. Tito's influence put the conflict there in glaciation for 40 years. Much of the strength of the emnity there was fall out from stuff that happened in WWII..

[Anonymous No.2297977]

The assassination of Leon Trotsky

[Anonymous No.2297980]

>>2297976
>Nuclear weapons are the aegis beneath which world peace will be built.
>???
>proliferation

[Anonymous No.2297981]

>>2297975

Maybe not THAT unlikely. But the French had a go at rounding up gypsies last year.

[Anonymous No.2297984]

>>2297961
Africa is much more backwards than europe. Africa is going to have about a century more of tribal violence before their society advances

[Anonymous No.2297985]

Nuclear weapons haven't brought any kind of peace. If you're american and under 40, your country has been at war for your entire life.

[Anonymous No.2297989]

>>2297984

>Africa is much more backwards than europe.
>tribal violence

You ever been to Belfast, bro? It's not only africans who are susceptible to tribalism. See also Dagestan, North Africa, Indonesia, India.

[Anonymous No.2297990]

>>2297968
>Rwanda seemed fine until some lunatic came on the radio talking about cockroaches
NO. No, no, no. The Rwandan genocide was a direct consequence of the Belgian Congo and the Belgian policy of divide and conquer amongst the Hutu and Tutsi. Before the colonization, they existed fine. Then come Les Belgiques and introduce notions that the tall, thin Tutsis were superior to the shorter, stocker Hutus. ID cards. Phrenologists. Favors to Tutsis in gov't. When they 'freed' Rwanda in the early 70's, Belgian liberals, feeling guilt over the imperialist policies, urged the Hutus to revolt against their Tutsi brethren, which led to a massacre that was shut down by mining companies and white South African mercenaries. Bad blood lingers. Fast forward to the 90's, and a plane gets shot down. You know the rest.

[Anonymous No.2297992]

>>2297984
Africans never industrialized mass human killings ala the death camp systems. Which is the more barbaric?

[Anonymous No.2297993]

>>2297985

Yes, but US was the great power after WWII. Great powers have always been at war. But US and USSR could not sqaure off directly because of nukes. That's the first time in history that great powers have been forced to confront each other through proxies.

[Anonymous No.2297997]

Jack Layton passing away, although very recent, may at least have some historical value in the so very well known Canadian textbooks.
tl;dr honest politician dies in Canada.

[Anonymous No.2297999]

>>2297990

Mostly true regarding the colonial background to the conflict, particularly the division of the hutus and tutsis. The Belgians were basically the biggest cunts in africa.

My point's the same though - nobody expected Rwanda to break out in such frenzied violence. The whole world was watching Somalia and to some extent Nigeria (another country which could go up any minute).

The genocides never seem to happen where expected, was my point.

If you're really interested, I recommend Guns over Kigali by Henry Kwami Anyidoho. It's a very good first-hand account from an African UN peacekeeper. Standard reading for anyone in the field.

Despite quitting my PhD like a fag, I still went back to the same area of work for the UN. I'm a glutton for this stuff, obviously.

[Anonymous No.2298000]

>>2297993
Why don't you save your breath and say, 'Yes.'

[Anonymous No.2298003]

>>2297999

> Works for the UN

Hey, do you know this Hispanic guy, who would have been involved in the UN work after Yugoslavia and Rwanda? Fuck, I can't remember his name now, but he's recently married...

[Anonymous No.2298007]

>>2297992
Murder is murder. It doesn't matter whether or not it's done methodically in a camp or haphazardly with melee weapons. The intention is the same.

[Anonymous No.2298010]

>>2298000


I don't understand your meaning there.

[Anonymous No.2298012]

>>2298010
You agreed with him.

[Anonymous No.2298015]

>>2298000
nice trips.

[Anonymous No.2298016]

>>2298012

But I didn't. Perhaps I wasn't clear - the cold war was relatively peaceful as a direct consequence of the existence of the nuclear threat.

[Anonymous No.2298017]

>>2297999
Any more recommendations?

[Anonymous No.2298020]

>>2298003

What, Jorge? Course I do man, we're totally bros.

You realise that's like me asking you "hey, did you know that one guy, he works in a gas station in Missouri. Brown hair, moustache. You know him right?"

[Anonymous No.2298023]

>>2298020

I realize this, so badly. Fuck. Anyways, he is a bro.

[Anonymous No.2298025]

>>2298016
>cold war was relatively peaceful
>war
>peaceful

[Anonymous No.2298027]

>>2298023

Yeah man. How could anyone not like Jorge?

[Anonymous No.2298029]

>>2298020
no need to be a prick man Jorge is probably chill as fuck.

[Anonymous No.2298030]

>>2298017

For Rwanda, nothing specific - I only went once, and Africa isn't my beat anymore. Africa: Altered States, Ordinary Miracles by Richard Dowden is quite insightful.

Madame Prosecutor is OK, if a little self-serving. Carla del Ponte covered most of the worst atrocities in Africa, but she's got a prosecutor's eye and that's got to be balanced.

For Yugoslavia, I recommend a book called Travesty, all about the Milosovic trial and how badly the UN fucked the whole thing up. Can't remember the author.

That's all the stuff that's on my shelf at the moment - I get most of my books from the library at work.

[Anonymous No.2298031]

>>2298025

Don't be silly. I didn't say it was peaceful. But considering the US and the USSR had the two biggest military forces ever assembled and were in conflict for half a century there was remarkably little blood shed. Not that that is any consolation for the Koreans, Vietnamese, Afghani's etc. But it is true.

[Anonymous No.2298035]

>>2298029

I wasn't trying to be a prick, actually. Just pointing out there's a lot of hispanic guys in the UN.

And for the record, the Jorge I know is a complete prick. He works for Luis Moreno Ocampo, who is an even bigger prick.

[Anonymous No.2298036]

>>2298031
>cold war was relatively peaceful
>i didn't say it was peaceful
>don't be silly

[Anonymous No.2298040]

>>2298036

Christ what is up with you?

Relatively peaceful = more peaceful than could be expected

And the reason for that was the nuclear threat.

That doesn't seem like a controversial opinion tbh.

[Anonymous No.2298043]

>>2298040
itt: ignore this pic

[Anonymous No.2298049]

>>2298043

How many people died in the cuban missile crisis?

[Anonymous No.2298052]

If it wasn't relatively peaceful it wouldn't be called the cold war. It would be called the war.

Doesn't seem very controversial to me either, but /lit/ is shockingly badly educated and riddled with trolls that it is often difficult to distinguish between stupid and troll.

[Anonymous No.2298056]

>>2298049

Actually, if you bundle up all the counter-insurgencies, bay of pigs style fiascos and general mad shit, probably quite a few.

Far less than if Soviet and American tanks had met up on the East German border though.

[Anonymous No.2298066]

Seeing Alain Locke's great vision of the New Negro become the disgusting reality of ghetto hoes, gang warfare, crack addiction, fatherless homes, poor test scores, high crime rates, and AIDS.

We could do so much, but we settle for so little.

[Anonymous No.2298086]

>>2298066

On the plus though - dat pimp style gave the world Iceberg Slim and Snoop Dogg, and provided material for Chappelle's Show.

[Anonymous No.2298341]

>scroll scroll scroll
>no way, no one mentions hitler's failure
>maybe /lit/ is indeed e/lit/e after all
>oh..yep, here it is
>ctrl+w

[ϟ Ｋ Ｏ Ｚ ϟ !Ry9qSW42No No.2298353]

>>2298341

NICE LYRICS.

[Anonymous No.2299103]

>>2297083
Why the partitions?

[Anonymous No.2299147]

Reading the last letters of people that were executed during the French Revolution, especially for ridiculous shit like mentioning "there is no bread in Paris, when the commitees and tribunals meet, they feast like kings" in a letter.

[Anonymous No.2299150]

>>2299147
Did you know that the Russian Revolution broke out because of angry peasant women who had gathered in lines for bread rations only to discover that there was no bread to be had?

>not ensuring your populace has bread on the table
>expecting there not to be a revolution (outside of North Korea)

ISHYGDDT

[Anonymous No.2299155]

>>2299150
What gets me is that the French Revolution was ~for the people~ and yet... the revolutionary government executed those people for not being happy with the government... which is what started the revolution in the first place. I guess you're only allowed to hate kings, not dictators.

[Anonymous No.2299166]

>>2299155
I think it's more that people who have power are often reluctant to give it up.

[Anonymous110 No.2299180]

Massacre of the innocents.

[OP !!Azy0YxF+XA9 No.2299188]

>>2299166

[Anonymous No.2299194]

>>2299180
That didn't actually happen bro.

[Master Exploder !/AOM61dVGE No.2299195]

For me it is the deaths of Carl Seagan, Chuck Schuldiner, Bill Hicks, and Harry Houdini. Though their influences on society were monumental and still well alive today, they will be missed.

[Anonymous No.2299201]

>>2297459
Today I learned history hipsters exist.

[Anonymous No.2299205]

The Death of Enkidu. Fuck, that made me start bawling.

[Anonymous No.2299208]

>>2299201
I was sad about Alamut before it was cool

[Anonymous110 No.2299209]

>>2299194
But there are pictures.

[Anonymous No.2299245]

For me it was the death of Steve Jobs. He was a genius and master innovator.

[Anonymous No.2299248]

The defeat of the CNT/FAI during the Spanish Civil War by Stalinist traitors.

[Anonymous No.2299249]

Nothing else could have happened.

[Anonymous No.2299251]

The Maccabean Revolt when the Judaism triumphed over Hellenism and we got the gigantic shitstain on the pages of history that is Christianity.

[Anonymous No.2299257]

>>2299147
>>2299147
Can you link to any?

[Anonymous No.2299260]

>>2299249

Determinism isn't supported by science bro

[Anonymous No.2299265]

>>2299260
explain the mechanism for free will

[Anonymous No.2299269]

>>2299265
lol go back to reddit you idiot

[Anonymous No.2299274]

>>2299269
>i don't know the answer so I'm going to tell him to go back to reddit and he will be mad at that

no im not mad ur mad

[Anonymous No.2299283]

>>2299265
>>2299274

I cannot, current neuroscience cannot.

However, particle and quantum physics shows that fundamental particles *do not behave in deterministic ways*. Particles move *utterly randomly*.

I don't know about human conscioueness, but *reality* is not predetermined.

[Anonymous No.2299284]

Franco winning the Spanish Civil War. Seriously, fuck that guy.
Also the Treaty of Versailles. Those fucking French man.

[Anonymous No.2299288]

>>2299257
I don't know of any places with online collections, but check out "Last Letters: Prisons & Prisoners of the French Revolution," by Olivier Blanc. The last 100-120 pages of the book are last letters, and the first 90 pages has a lot of snippets. I could write out one or two short letters if you're interested, though!

[Anonymous No.2299289]

>>2299284
American commie lover detected. Hurr durr Hemingway Orwell oh how romantic.

[Anonymous No.2299291]

>>2299274
> i'm a neckbeard
> someone calls me a neckbeard and i say "I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I?

Take a shower, go read some simple-minded Dawkins and stop mouth-breathing all over this thread.

[Anonymous No.2299293]

>>2299283

It isn't predetermined but there is no free will. You only have a perceived choice when making a decision but in reality you have none. Your decisions will always be based of your nature, nurture, and chance, not because you used your willpower.

So if you were some higher being and were able to take into account every single variable you could predict the future.

[Anonymous No.2299294]

>>2299291

>2012
>implying everyone reads dawkins

I don't know man, it sounds like ur mad, you want some tears with that? Why don't you go crying to your mommy and let the big boys talk.

[Anonymous No.2299299]

>>2299294
> he doesn't even know how to troll

0/10

[Anonymous No.2299300]

>>2299294
aw shit, change everyone to anyone

[Anonymous No.2299301]

>>2299289
>implying the communists were in control of the Spanish Republic prior to the Civil War
>implying the Versailles Treaty was anything but terrible
I don't think having a treaty that blames Germany for starting the war, then levies the cost of all combatants on Germany is particularly fair. Neither did anybody BESIDES the French, strangely enough.

[Anonymous No.2299302]

>>2299299
>2012
>trying to hide your mad

ishygddt

[Anonymous No.2299313]

I am genuinely pissed that humans ever gained sapience. Ignorance is bliss.

To a lesser extent, why the fuck did nobody think to save Diogenes' writings? Guy was fucking hilarious.

[Anonymous No.2299320]

>>2299260
I know. It certainly /feels/ like it could have been different even we'll never know for sure.

[Anonymous No.2299336]

haha I've enjoyed this thread. If there was a book for 'everything humanity got wrong' how many volumes would it be?

[Anonymous No.2299337]

>>2299293
I think what you say is probably true, but this debate is neccesarily philosophical and unscientific. We cannot *know*, so maybe biased agnosticism is the right choice?

Gotta take unction with the 2nd part though - the most basic particles are inherently unmeasurable. Like, if you try to measure one, you stop its effect or make it impossible to measure in other ways.

quantum fissix is so cool!

[Anonymous No.2299338]

>>2299336
Depends on the font size. I imagine it would take longer to write it than humanity has left.

[Anonymous No.2299342]

>>2299293

Free will either the real choice or the perceived choice. So either way it exists. It's all the same.

The influence of nature and nurture is already acknowledged. it doesn't affect the conclusion.

[Anonymous No.2299518]

>>2299284

Agreed, studying Versailles these days in full context feels like a fucking car crash in slow motion, now knowing where all their petty squabbles would eventually lead to.

[Anonymous No.2299534]

The bombing of Dresden. So fucking unnecessary. Such a fucking waste.

[Anonymous No.2299565]

>>2299534
It was worth it. If they hadn't bombed Dresden then Slaughter House Five would never be written. It's not like it was a ground breaking piece of literature but I enjoyed it so it was totally worth it to kill all those people.

[Anonymous No.2299589]

>>2297576
Honorious. He was the one who told Britain to "Look to your own defense..." and thus banished england to 400 years of darkness.

[Anonymous No.2299590]

Japanese vivisection and chemical weapon experimentation on captured civilians and prisoners of war.

[Anonymous No.2299594]

>>2297561

I know this was yesterday but I'll bite because I'm in the mood for a good rant.

Your notion is based on the ignorance of 3 things:

- of government policy implementation, which though usually incompetent and half-arsed (regardless of who is actually in power) has never ever just given houses and truly liveable pensions to all Aboriginals (generalisations are fun) as an apology and when they've done anything that smells like that it's usually so flawed (houses unsuited to conditions, needs and with no input from stakeholders) or riddled with caveats that they've been practically moot.

- of the complex and VARIABLE socio-economic issues surrounding indigenous people as a result of rigidly conservative, hunter-gatherers coming into conflict with the victims of British poor governance scraping out a new country under hostile conditions and incidentally consigning "the niggers" to a state of limbo whilst constructing a state of institutionalised oppression. Shit was "horrid" and as much as there's a minority that trivialises it with a victim complex, that doesn't change that shit happened and that Australian society has to actually deal with the results instead of rambling thinking Aboriginals will magically become white, middle class suburbanites and that history never happened outside of Gallipoli, Bradman's test average and Menzies' fucking eyebrows.

[Anonymous No.2299595]

>>2297617
See the carl sagan video

[Anonymous No.2299596]

>>2299594


- of the fact that the people with a real testicular grip on Australian governments are the usual array of media (both corrupt and incapable), entrenched business and sometimes union interests (the same) and the Americans, with the lower ranks made up of a terror of the Asia-Pacific and the election time fear of outer-suburban lower middle class (our Aussie battlers, our "working families") with downwards envy thanks to reforms/privatisation of infrastructure hitting their back pockets, making them scared of joining the great unwashed they used to be a part of.

I expect this kind of silliness from the reactionary Ausfags on /int/&/pol/ who want to differentiate themselves from politically-correct teachers and those socialist Arts students at uni by being more insufferable than they bloody are. I'm disappointed.

[Anonymous No.2299600]

Bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

(inb4 "but it was necessary to end the war")

[Anonymous E Pollock No.2299610]

Children's Crusade.
All these kids march to the Ocean, ready to slay some other kids.
Slave ships appear.
Every kid is sold into slavery.

[Anonymous No.2299616]

>>2299600
it didn't even end the war.

[Anonymous No.2299619]

Franz Ferdinand's assassination.
Part of it was really fucking hilarious. But then him and his wife got shot, and the way he pleaded for her to not die made me pretty fucking sad.
>Sophie, Sophie! Don't die! Live for our children!

[Anonymous No.2299620]

Khmer Rouge genocide.

[Anonymous No.2299624]

Oh i dno maybe when michael jackson died. that was sad :'( or saddam hussein. he was such a cute man with his beard and hat

[Anonymous No.2299630]

>>2299565
So it goes.

[Anonymous No.2299644]

the sack and near complete eradication of my hometown Magdeburg by the Catholic League in 1631
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sack_of_Magdeburg

[Anonymous No.2299659]

>>2299619
This. I've always been interested in WW1 as opposed to everyone else who likes WW2 better, and the assassination of Franz and his wife is tragic.

[Anonymous No.2299663]

>>2299600

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

Two nukes was merciful.

[Anonymous No.2299666]

European colonization/slaughter of the new world

[Anonymous No.2299670]

>>2299663
US killed something like a million Japanese civilians, between firebombing & nukes. No military purpose. Ain't no call for that. Those civilians weren't experimenting on people or raping Nanjing.

[Anonymous No.2299673]

>>2299659
>WW1

>No nukes
>Barely any genocide
>No Hitler or Nazi's
>No Stalin

WW2 is just the best war.

[Anonymous No.2299678]

>>2297631

Actually the Aztecs weer not assholes at all. They were demonized and made to look much worse than they were by the Spanish in an attempt to justify their slaughter and forced conversion to Christianity.

Their ritual sacrifice were no more common that Christian burnings, and a whole lot quicker and less painful.

[Anonymous No.2299680]

>>2299670
>No military purpose.

[Anonymous No.2299689]

>>2299673
Eh, that's all overblown.

WW2 is interesting, but I like the whole idea that WW1 was basically the world's first event like it. A whole lot of new technology (planes, tanks, gasses) were used too. It was the first modern war, basically.

[Anonymous No.2299690]

>>2299680
what military justification are you talking about bb

[Anonymous No.2299696]

>>2299670
Both of the nukes were dropped near massive facilities that produced guns, ammo, vehicles, and all other sorts of supplies for the Japanese military. Presumably the same was done with firebombings.

This, obviously served a military purpose.

>Lrn 2 history

[Anonymous No.2299704]

>>2299180
But then we wouldn't have gotten this delicious piece of music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy1l1PAvXCA

[Anonymous No.2299706]

>>2299596

And if we're talking sad moments in Australian history:

-The Fall of Singapore to Japs on bicycles with Australians stuck making a token defence for an ungrateful Britain and then being subject to some of the cruellest P.O.W. treatment ever seen.

- Whitlam standing by and letting the American-backed Indonesians take East Timor despite the East Timorese government being one of the few surprisingly competent post-colonial socialist regimes, and the fact that it led to a massive body count on our front-doorstep including Australian citizens and actually undermined regional stability contrary to why Whitlam stood by in the first place.

- Whitlam's dismissal and his inability to sell his government's successes at the subsequent election because his government was average with their economic credentials.

Some would bring up the Eureka Stockade but that was losing a battle but getting everything you wanted afterwards.

>>2299620

Pol Pot: the hands-on history teacher you wish you had.

>>2299666

I'd argue if there's anything that's worse than colonisation, it's fucking rapid decolonisation. Thank fuck for the Chinese who, for all their ruthless pragmatism and moral bankruptcy, are accidentally doing something about it in some countries with infrastructure investment whilst everybody else just sells arms and takes in a couple of refugees with heaps of hand-wringing.

>>2299673

Mustard gas, flamethrowers and pointless loss of life due to outdated military tactics. What's not to love.

[Anonymous No.2299707]

>>2299689
Arguably one of the Punic Wars (the second I believe) was the first world war. Carthage hired mercenaries from all over the Mediterranean and fighting was done all around the Mediterranean.

[Anonymous No.2299729]

>>2299670
>1million

88,000 - 100,000 during Tokyo firebombings
90,000–166,000 for Hiroshima
60,000–80,000 in Nagasaki

There were more, but getting a figure of 1,000,000 just doesn't seem possible.

>No military purpose.

Get them to surrender.

>Those civilians weren't experimenting on people or raping Nanjing.

Maybe not, but many definitely supported it.

"In 1937, the Osaka Mainichi Shimbun and its sister newspaper the Tokyo Nichi Nichi Shimbun covered a "contest" between two Japanese officers, Toshiaki Mukai (向井敏明?) and Tsuyoshi Noda (野田毅?), in which the two men were described as vying with one another to be the first to kill 100 people with a sword. The competition supposedly took place en route to Nanking, directly prior to the infamous "Nanking Massacre", and was covered in four articles, from November 30 to December 13, 1937."

This is referring to a contest being help to see who could be first to decapitate 100 civilians. Many of the Japanese population followed this kind of stuff with zeal.

[Anonymous No.2299732]

>>2299689
WW2 did have more civilian and guerrilla fighting, though.

[Anonymous No.2299735]

>>2299732
That it did. Forgot to mention for ww1
>flamethrowers

[Anonymous No.2299737]

>>2299706
>Chinese are morally bankrupt and accidentally doing something about decolonizing other countries

I think you misread Chinese intentions. It's absolutely colonialism. What's different about China's interventions in Latin America and Africa and, hell, most of the world, let's be honest, is that their economics do not come with political strings attached. Ruthlessly pragmatic, I'll accept, but morally bankrupt? How do you get off characterizing purely economic aid as morally bankrupt, in comparison to US "aid" which always comes with blah blah blah bolstering corrupt regimes in the Middle East, fostering civil unrest etc.

I think China is trying to write a new page in history. They have clearly stated over and over that they do NOT want to have to become the world police. In other words, let money flow, let a hundred flowers bloom, and let a hundred schools of thought contend. I find the US ideology of "our way or the highway" to be far more morally bankrupt, because their citizens believe so naively that they are being morally correct. China has no illusions. It's totally refreshing.

[Anonymous No.2299739]

>>2299696
the japanese, by that point of the war, had almost no manufacturing base to speak of. they had almost no raw materials to speak of - the us navy had an enormously effective blockade of the home islands. the japanese were not producing war material in any quantity to speak of by that point, in hiroshima, in nagasaki, or anywhere else. what you're referring to here is that hiroshima and nagasaki were the two largest japanese cities untouched by the massive allied firebombing campaign on japan (the firebombing of tokyo killed more people in one night than died immediately in nagasaki) but they weren't producing any significant amount of military supplies. they didn't have the raw materials to do it with.

[Anonymous No.2299749]

>>2299729
there is some truth to the idea of bringing an end to the war, but that's not a military purpose in the same direct way that bombing a military outpost is, i hope you understand what i mean. and it is open to debate what precisely led the japanese to surrender. that said, i don't wish to castigate the allies for the firebombing - they felt that it was necessary & their motives were mostly involved with bringing an end to the war, which makes people do terrible things. but i think it's important to remember that the narrative of WWII is not simply "allies are great, nazis are evil." i mean, the nazis were evil. but understanding history requires resisting easy narratives.

[Anonymous No.2299761]

>>2299739
It was the nail in the coffin.

[Anonymous No.2299971]

>>2299737

That's what I kind of meant, they're solving the problems of the West's decolonisation/practical abandonment (mainly in Africa) through what you point out is basically a better form of neo-colonialism than the Americans and the West in general have been peddling. Although to be fair they're just as willing to prop up dictators with arms as they subtly did in Burma up until recently when they had a bit of a re-think or god-knows-what. They're not just ambivalent money lenders.

I think there's also a danger of considering the Chinese as not having their own ideological quirks though when they have international shitfits all the time over One China and Tibet (other than lebensraum, I've never understood the point of them taking Tibet. Surely it would have been better as a buffer state?) which is far more than just quibbles over territorial integrity. Christ, the amount of cash they waste having face-related pissing contests in the Pacific with their "rogue province" is ridiculous.

But yes, it certainly is refreshing although as an Australian and so living on the outskirts of their neighbourhood one has to have a natural concern with them - particularly since the Americans spent basically the last decade building sand castles out of dry sand so we've been left on our own playing both ally and counter-weight to China as a middle-power with lots of awkwardness over imprisoned Chinese-Australian businessmen for their "costs of doing business" miscalculations or practically buying the great failed 80s Western economics test case that is New Zealand.

We live in interesting times.

[Anonymous No.2300073]

>>2299706
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPFjToKuZQM

Why dig for it? You have it made.

[Anonymous No.2300208]

>>2298066
>>2297874
agreed.

[Anonymous No.2300531]

>>2297459

>the defeat of the Mahknovists in Russia during the revolution

But they were a pack of bandits who committed their fare share of atrocities and pogroms

[Anonymous No.2300572]

>>2299678

>Their ritual sacrifice were no more common that Christian burnings,

That's nonsense old boy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_sacrifice_in_Aztec_culture#Estimates_of_the_scope_of_the_sacrific
es

(and yes I know it's a wiki link, but the books I've read say the same thing. The Aztecs were an absolute shower of tossers).

[Anonymous No.2301188]

>>2299673

Absolutely reminded me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oo0Pz0wTSZw

[Anonymous No.2301189]

>>2297846
This...

[Anonymous No.2301226]

As someone mentioned above, the fact that no one saved Diogenes' writing is terribly sad. He was just so cool.