/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22966317]

>you're bad just for being born

Thanks jesus

[Anonymous No.22966419]

>>22966317
The vanishing of the idea of the Original Sin is actually leading us to fascism. Read Augusto del Noce. But you probably won't because you're a midwife atheist.

[Anonymous No.22966424]

>>22966317
>muh Adam
wasn’t me
>muh carnal nature
wasn’t me
>muh free will
if you have free will, then why don’t you fucking prove it? Be perfect. You won’t. You can’t.

[Anonymous No.22966427]

>>22966419
nooooooo i just wanted to be trans and stuff

[Anonymous No.22966431]

>>22966424
>if you have a gun, then why don't you fucking prove it? Shoot everyone on Earth. You won't. You can't.

[Anonymous No.22966438]

>>22966424
>Be perfect. You won’t. You can’t.

I think you are perfect anon.
Prove me wrong. You won't. You can't.

[Anonymous No.22966439]

>>22966419
The main problem with original sin is how can Jesus redeem everyone by getting tortured to death once when people had been tortured to death in far more prolonged and painful ways both before and since he died

[Anonymous No.22966444]

>>22966431
You can shoot anything with a gun. But your argument is that we have the ability to be perfect if we simply choose to. So prove it. Until then biological determinism and evolution make much more sense. So I’ll be waiting on you to be perfect like Jesus. I mean, he used free will to be perfect, right? So why can’t a single Christian do the same?

[Anonymous No.22966450]

>>22966444
>anything
is not
>everything
perfection is totality

[Anonymous No.22966458]

>>22966439
In order to pay the penance for original sin required a man free of sin because adam was free of sin when he disobeyed God. This is impossible because Adam’s sin tainted all his descendants so God sent Him to pay the price that no one could.

[Anonymous No.22966468]

>>22966450
are you really sticking to this dumb gun analogy? I don’t have to shoot everything to prove I have a gun. Because the defining feature of a gun is not that it can shoot everything, but that it can shoot something. But free will is defined as the ability to make a choice in any situation, to always be able to resist temptation. This is in contrast to the idea that sometimes our temptations and sinful desires are simply stronger than our other desires, and we will simply do what we are predetermined to desire most. The probability of always choosing the good action for the rest of your life is extremely small in a deterministic worldview where everyone’s biology is wired to have urges to sin. Yet if we have free will, then this is possible. So why not prove it?

[Sage No.22966474]

>>22966317
>godless
>can't comprehend even basic Scriptural ideas
>communicates with a cartoon
Thanks for visually representing your mental retardation. Jannies, get rid of these trash threads already.

[Anonymous No.22966477]

>>22966419
>"Noooo, you can't criticize my cult of human sacrifice! You're guilty and that's why someone had to be tortured to death. It was all because you're guilty!"

[Anonymous No.22966488]

There are niggas who literally believe God is all powerful, created a perfect world, allowed it to be massively corrupted, blamed his perfect creation for the corruption, and then had his own son be born and then tortured and executed just so he could allow himself to forgive the creation that he made. Wild.

[Anonymous No.22966496]

>>22966458
Who made these rules about sin and stuff

[Anonymous No.22966504]

>>22966488
>but God can’t make perfect things! Only he is perfect!
yeah except all the insects and fish and other animals that are more or less perfectly suited to their environment, especially predators like sharks or alligators. The fact is humans are monkeys and we didn’t exactly evolve to live in a modern world with an abundance of food and internet porn and having to work all the time and seeing people that aren’t related to us etc. etc. God simply did not design us to handle this world, which is why we are so sinful. It is entirely his fault. But Christians will keep coping because that is their evolutionary strategy

[Anonymous No.22966510]

>>22966477
>You belong to a heckin cult, you christcuck!

[Anonymous No.22966511]

>>22966424
>Be perfect.
Too busy being myself

[Anonymous No.22966517]

>>22966504
>yeah except all the insects and fish and other animals that are more or less perfectly suited to their environment
??????

[Anonymous No.22966522]

>>22966419
>The vanishing of the idea of the Original Sin is actually leading us to fascism

[Anonymous No.22966525]

>>22966517
animals don’t complain all the time about how the world is meaningless and they are so sinful and boo hoo hoo they need to be saved.

[Anonymous No.22966533]

>>22966419
Holy based now I want the idea of the original sin to vanish forever

[Anonymous No.22966534]

>>22966510
>no you're a lame nerd
>no you're a lame nerd
damn theology is bussin fr

[Anonymous No.22966539]

>>22966525
they don't complain about anything, they don't talk, they just kill each other and die unceasingly

[Anonymous No.22966550]

>>22966534
All of your surface level objections to Christianity have been addressed in its 2000 year history, but of course an illiterate retard like you doesn't know this. Brimstone awaits you.

[Anonymous No.22966567]

>>22966424
>>muh Adam
>wasn’t me
This. I'd strangle that fucking mongrel and his inbred wife if I could. Fucking retards.

[Anonymous No.22966593]

[Anonymous No.22966600]

>>22966424

[Anonymous No.22966613]

>>22966419
Good. I would do anything to see the collapse of the world-view that we are sick and wrong by design. We have done all we can do to remove ourselves from nature and it has ruined every aspect of life.

[Anonymous No.22966614]

>>22966600
I didn’t eat a magical fucking fruit, retard. However, it is the case that humans are retarded and short-sighted and selfish, which is exactly why we should fix God’s unintelligent design with eugenics and genetic engineering in the next few hundred years or so, when we have perfected the technology. God could have easily designed us all to be born existing like Adam, “free” to “choose” sin (why would we even desire it in the first place, though?), but instead though it would be funnier if we were all constantly tormented with temptations. God is one sick fuck.

[Anonymous No.22966617]

>>22966550
You lack the basic reading comprehension to see that youre both being called faggots, spare me the theological literature larp retard

[Anonymous No.22966618]

>>22966317
>>you're bad just for being born
Are you getting angry at the phantom of Calvin, OP? The idea has little to do with standard Christianity.

[Anonymous No.22966620]

>>22966618
how do you unironically respond to Romans 9?

[Anonymous No.22966630]

>>22966439
>far more prolonged and painful ways both before and since he died
No one else is an entity with perfect foresight and perfect memory. Jesus is eternally being crucified. Nothing can possibly be more prolonged. Perfect foresight and perfect memory essentially dislodge God from time, even God's incarnation. Every moment is eternally present to God at once. It isn't just one time being crucified, but an infinite amount of suffering.

[Anonymous No.22966638]

>>22966614
>why would we even desire it in the first place, though?
because you do.

[Anonymous No.22966646]

>>22966458
>do one sin in ignorance
>now all of your descendants are cursed to have dozens of sinful urges
your religion is a joke

[Anonymous No.22966647]

>>22966646
pretty funny joke tho desu

[Anonymous No.22966654]

>>22966638
do you desire to have gay sex as much as the homosexual? Do you desire to rape kids as much as the pedophile? Do you desire to murder and steal as much as the nigger? These desires don’t just originate from some sort of free will machine. They’re biological impulses that clearly differ from human to human. The implication is that they don’t have to exist at all, and God could have made all of us to be much more moral by design.

[Anonymous No.22966655]

>>22966630
so god feels pain? does he have a nervous system? how does a timeless nervous system work?

[Anonymous No.22966660]

>>22966593
I hope you remember to laugh when the demons take on the form of that blasphemous soijack when they rape and eat you over and over and over.

Of course, you probably won't be in a laughing mood after you variously been forced to eat all your family or have demons posing as them eat you, forced into the river of fire, boiled in flaming shit, etc.

But yeah, laugh it up now. Hell will be totally based! That's where all the interesting people are.

Enjoy taking all that BDC. I hear the bust lava and acid and have serrated and spiked dongs.

[Anonymous No.22966661]

>>22966655

[Anonymous No.22966670]

>>22966661
how about in you own words dr pseud

[Anonymous No.22966671]

>>22966660
does your seething fanfiction give you solace?

[Anonymous No.22966675]

>>22966670
God experiences time and pain via its creation.

[Anonymous No.22966677]

>>22966660
Bro was hard while writing this too

[Anonymous No.22966684]

>>22966660
>and just for using your brain you will burn in lava forever!!!!
lol. Muslims will say the same about you worshiping Jesus.

[Anonymous No.22966689]

>>22966675
Via what's creation?

[Anonymous No.22966691]

>>22966550
No, anon. They have not. Theology has had to be dragged in to every new development and discovery. Don't get me wrong, modernity is a shitshow. Further, the Nazi's has the right idea in removing the anti-life Semetic influences from Christianity in order to create a nativist ethnic creed that can support and grow a people.

As it stands now Christianity has failed, on evert metric to continuously improve people's life. It commands one to neglect the material world for the spiritual, while modernity demands you neglect the spiritual for the material. One needs to reconcile this. Postive Christianity was a chance at this.
>inb4 muh pagan, i despise those too

[Anonymous No.22966696]

>>22966684
People of the book (Christians and Jews) can go to heaven according to Muslim faith. I think it's the same across all three religions. If you're good you're good.

[Anonymous No.22966699]

>>22966671
>>22966660
>>22966684
>>22966677
The pleasure of the righteous in paradise will be enhanced by looking down at all the wicked and vicious in the Pit.

I'll be sure to look you up and catch one of your daily doses of BDC.

[Anonymous No.22966702]

>>22966654
not as much, people aren't the same. but if something upsets you, it's an object of desire of the other in you.

[Anonymous No.22966708]

>>22966654
not as much, people aren't the same. but if something upsets you, it's an object of desire of the other in you.

[Anonymous No.22966709]

>>22966699
Do you think they will have themes for the viewer screen or you'll just have to stick with the default cloud border?

[Anonymous No.22966712]

>>22966630
>Jesus is eternally being crucified
He rose 3 days later anon, thus rendering any sacrifice moot. What redeemed humanity appears to be the Passion, the brutal and bloody torture and humiliation of an innocent being (Jesus being the epitome of this) and thus it is a barbaric semite way to obtain salvation.

[Anonymous No.22966719]

>>22966613
>I would do anything to see the collapse of the world-view that we are sick and wrong by design
This has basically led to horrors of communism and fascism. You put all your hope into political projects and it always backfires.

[Anonymous No.22966724]

>>22966708
So you admit people are unfairly made to have worse sinful desires than others. Imagine a human with the least amount of temptation, a person who doesn’t even have to try to not be sinful. They don’t even think about watching porn or wasting money or murdering etc. Why didn’t God just make everyone like that? I know you don’t have any serious responses

[Anonymous No.22966734]

>>22966719
>This has basically led to horrors of communism and fascism.
The leaders of Italian Fascism, Falangism, Legionaires State, National Socialism and almost every right-wing authoritarian state where Christian, normally Catholic, though in Codreanu's singular example Orthodox. You liberal larper.

The horrors inflicted by Fascism have always been upon the un-spiritual, the subverter and the materialist.

[Anonymous No.22966743]

>>22966699
>I rejoice in the suffering of others
>this makes me a good person
what did I ever do to you for you to hate me so?

[Anonymous No.22966755]

>>22966419
We still have the notion of original sin in modernity, ie. That we are just a product of our genetics and environment and that There’s no free will. Couple that with the false notion that we have evolved from barbaric animals and hey presto original sin is back.

[Anonymous No.22966757]

>>22966724
creation is perfectly fair. everyone is created just as they are.

[Anonymous No.22966760]

>>22966620
>chapter dedicated to dabbing on Jews and their chosenite mentality
I fail to see the problem or feel any need to respond anything but "based".
Since the thread is related to the subject of original sin (or rather a strawman of it) I assume you mention that chapter for the reference it has to the old oracle against Esau and his condemnation before being born which is not about original sin, a proof of which is easily seen in the fact that Jacob is not taken in it (but certainly is in original sin). And Esau is not condemned "for being born" either.

[Anonymous No.22966765]

>>22966504
> believing in evolution

[Anonymous No.22966771]

>>22966757
as I predicted
>>22966760
I don’t think you see the point. Paul is literally saying God can make us do anything, even sin and reject him and go to hell, and we can’t complain because God can do whatever he wants. Everything is his will.

[Anonymous No.22966775]

>>22966771
if it wasn't _your_ will, you would not have temptations.

[Anonymous No.22966776]

HEY EVERYONE, HAVE A GOOD FRIDAY AFTERNOON/NIGHT

[Anonymous No.22966792]

>>22966775
temptations are biological impulses. It’s why I am attracted to women with big tits while other men are attracted to men. You can’t just decide to be attracted to something. Your worldview is completely upside down, and it will eventually become obsolete because it denies reality.

[Anonymous No.22966816]

>>22966771
Calvinist reading comprehension of the same repeated two and a half verses, ending in a mixture of muslim tier Insha'Allah bullshit and monergist abomination going against the entire Christian religion.
Was it not enough to get called out by everyone from antiquity to the present day? Must we really have the same argument already settled a hundred times before?
Not only that but it isn't even directly related to original sin which is the point of the thread. Obviously once go down the spiritual black hole of monergism you can always brush it away as "Allah wants it" but that isn't part of serious discussion.

[Anonymous No.22966850]

>>22966419
Omg I love the vanishing of the idea of the Original Sin now

[Anonymous No.22966912]

>>22966771
No, Saint Paul is pointing out that God chose Israel, not the other way around. The line about Esau is a quote from Micah and it isn't talking about Esau and Jacob as individuals. Micah is talking about the fate of the Israelites and Edomites, and the Edomites are who are hated, for their abominations. Esau becomes rich and powerful and lives a long healthy life. His descendent, Job, is one of the very few people explicitly called righteous in the Bible.

Paul is pointing out that corporate election doesn't entail that God is being unfair by not forcing all Jews to recognize Christ while the Gentiles are "grafted into the vine of salvation."

Arminians and Calvinists have overdosed on modernity and want to see election as an individual thing. God picking individuals because everything is about the individual, me. MacIntyre's "After Virtue," is a good case study in just how alien the focus on individuality is to the ancient mind. The polis (or tribe for Israel) is prior to the individual. The individual only is who they are because of their childhood, their upbringing, their social role, etc.

Salvation is corporate in the Bible, something some Protestants get (even Evangelicals like the Baptists) but which the Reformed completely miss. Who is foreknown? The members of the Body of Christ. Who is justified? The members of the Body. Who is glorified? The Bride, the Church.

To understand the stuff with pharaoh you have to understand that ancient understanding of destiny and fate is not like modern materialist determinism. Who you are and what you choose to do is part of your fate.

Nothing exists outside God creating and sustaining it. "All things hold together," in Christ, the Divine Logos. Man does absolutely nothing without God because man is not self creating.

Calvinism errs by foisting a modern nature/miracle distinction on to things, such that man can never come to have faith through "nature," but instead requires a "miracle," as if all of created existence wasn't one giant theophany.

This is apparent when Saint Paul is talking about how no one should boast. The gendering of the phrases makes it clear that Paul is referring to "salvation" as "not your doing," but Calvinists use European language translations to try to claim that "faith" is what is being referred to. This is where the idea that "all faith requires a miracle," comes from. But it contradicts Romans 1, where Paul explicitly says nature gives evidence to God.

If a man learns about God through choosing to study theology and philosophy, that isn't man saving himself. Man is not self creating. Everything is God. That's the original context of Romans 9, a world where God is in every process, a panentheistic God without limit, not one who sits outside existence and only interacts with "magic."

Your choice can be yours, and free (or as free as any choice can be, we are all influenced by external factors). But God still sits behind those choices, making them possible.

[Anonymous No.22966959]

>>22966912
You can also flip back to Romans 7 to understand the context of classical fatalism. Paul talks about being "dead in sin." This clearly isn't a biological death, but a death of personhood as he is determined by instinct, desire, circumstance, and accident. Essentially, he is a mere effect of his own disordered desires. He is "at war with the members of [his] body," because he is disordered by sin, unable to go after God, the desire of his "inner heart."

This is exactly the sort of conception of freedom as reflexive self-determination one finds in Plato or the Stoics.

Paul is "given over," to his desires. We could even say that God has given him over. That doesn't mean they aren't his desires he is chosing to go after.

But, to be self-determining means to be rightly ordered in respect to the desires and the external world. Man's authentic, rightly ordered self is oriented to God. But only Christ, the Divine Logos, rationality itself, can guide the soul upwards.

Man is finite and fallible so he can never climb out of Plato's Cave. But against the Cave we have the Virgin Womb, God coming down to rescue us. As Saint Bonneventure says, a ladder we can chose to climb, lowered through grace.

Pharaoh having his heart hardened to reveal God in history, the pagans being "given over" to their corrupt desires, these are not incomenserate with coherent ideas of freedom in the ancient world.

It is modern libertarian free will that is more incoherent. What does it mean to have your actions completely undetermined? This would just make them random. They could be based on your preferences and memories, because those exist prior to action. It's nonsense, as Leibniz pointed out.

[Anonymous No.22966972]

>>22966419
>NOOOO YOU WERE BORN HECKIN EVIL AND THE ONLY WAY TO NOT BE EVIL IS TO WORSHIP THE THING TELLING YOU YOU WERE BORN EVIL!
Holy stockholm syndrome, Batman!

[Anonymous No.22966983]

>>22966444
>But your argument is that we have the ability to be perfect if we simply choose to.
What the fuck lmao? The entire point of original sin is that man without God's assistance can will no good -- only God is good (Matthew 19:17). Man must become a slave to righteousness (Romans 6:22) and a co-worker of God (1 Corinthians 3:9; Hebrews 3:17), for while everything good created is good and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving (1 Timothy 4:4), the creation of mankind is still ongoing -- we are but unfinished pots subjected to the suffering of this world which as fire hardens and perfects us.

>I mean, he used free will to be perfect, right?
Jesus Christ was the Word, who was in the beginning with God and was God (John 1:1), the one and only Son of God (John 1:18) through Whom all things were made and without Whom nothing was made that has been made (John 1:3), the the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation (Colossians 1:15), being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to His own advantage but rather made Himself nothing by taking the very nature of a servant (Philippians 2:6-7) so sacrificed for our sins once for all when He offered Himself (Hebrews 7:27), in so doing cleansoing our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God! (Hebrews 9:14)

Once again, atheists show themselves illiterate on matters of basic theology.

[Anonymous No.22966997]

>>22966972
It is a self-evident truth human beings are evil and depraved. Kill yourself.