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22960658 No.22960658 [Reply] [Original]

Where does the sexual ethics "anything consensual is permissible" come from?

My knowledge of philosophy is mostly in 19th c. German thought, and the ancient and Enlightenment-era basics, and it sort of trails off into just a handful of names once we get to the 20th century.

It's obvious that this new ethic became popular in the 20th century, but I'm struggling to pinpoint when. It seems like the robust ethics of the Enlightenment and the 19th century are swallowed up by anomie by the time of Nietzsche and Heidegger, and then we just suddenly come out the other side with this extremely specific and limited idea of sexual ethics.

>> No.22960661

>>22960658
>Where does the sexual ethics "anything consensual is permissible" come from?
It's the default. It doesn't come from anywhere. All sexual restrictions come from dogma; mostly religious.

>> No.22960666

>>22960658
Seems like an extension of liberalism à la Mill's harm principle

>> No.22960668
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22960668

it's the oldest of sexual ethics, why wouldn't it be?

>> No.22960693

>>22960658
A misunderstanding of Mill's Harm Principle in popular morality.

According to Mill:
>"The only purpose for which power can be rightfully exercised over any member of a civilized community, against his will, is to prevent harm to others."

This is not a self evident truth, but his philosophy of liberalism. Also, notice this is about restraint of coercive power of society on individuals.

But anyway, this led some people to believe that:

>"As long as it doesn't hurt others directly, it is not morally wrong"

Which has led to many of the problems we have in society.

>> No.22960695

>>22960661
>It's the default
It very much isn't.

>> No.22960705

>>22960695
non-PIV sex was all over the ancient world dude. open homosexuality less so but still abundant.

>> No.22960707

>>22960668
Like this anon says, sexual restrictiveness is a jewish idea;it didn't exist in the egyptian and assyrian/mesopotamian and even greek traditions where priestesses had ritual sex with pilgrims who visited their temples and boys prostituted themselves to older men. Jews brought a lot of unnecessary autism to religion. But I think the idea of consensual sex arises out of the christian puritanicals who paved the way for feminism.

>> No.22960716

>>22960705
Pretty much every society have a different morality when it comes to sexual relations. Modern Western morality is not the default, you just think so due to a lack of knowledge.

You do know the Trojan War was started because a Trojan Prince had consensual sex with a Greek Princess and that was not really acceptable to the Greeks, including her husband. And also, the conflict in the Iliad was due to war bounty. By that, I mean slaves.

>> No.22960722

>>22960716
How is adultery consensual sex lmao, its like me killing your brother and calling it consensual murder.

>> No.22960726

>>22960716
Why do you mention adultery when replying to me? Adultery is still largely frowned upon today and has nothing to do with OP.

>> No.22960730

>>22960707
Anon, you are just showing your ignorance along with your anti-semitism.

The Greeks and Romans were not Jewish and they very much didn't believe consent was all that mattered in regards to sex.

Here is Musonius Rufus:
>Men who are not wantons or immoral are bound to consider sexual intercourse justified only when it occurs in marriage and is indulged in for the purpose of begetting children, since that is lawful, but unjust and unlawful when it is mere pleasure-seeking, even in marriage.

Here is Epicurus
>Sexual intercourse never helped anyone, and one must be satisfied if it has not harmed

Hindus and Eastern Asians traditionally also had their own sexual morality, which is not 21st century Tinder morality.

>> No.22960734

>>22960722
>>22960726

>How is adultery consensual sex
Paris and Helen are usually said to have consented.

I would also like to remind you that Athenian men very much expected their wives to be virgin women.
They didn't exactly think "oh, she had consensual sex with many men before marriage, that's not wrong"

>> No.22960737

>>22960730
you're really going to cite these two like they spoke for all greco-romans? you can just look at plato's symposium to see that the chaste were clearly minorities in society if socrates needs to advocate for temperance to the aristocratic class in the first place.

>> No.22960741

>>22960734
right but they could still fuck whores with little repercussion from peers, a wife and a whore being two different things completely. if that's what you meant in OP you should have just said it, it's kind of misleading.

>> No.22960749

>>22960737
Socrates also promoted restrictive sexual ethics, which also goes against your theory.
And the Athenians very much didn't think "as long as a sex act is consensual, it is OK". They very much wanted virgin brides for themselves and high born Athenian women didn't have contact with men outside their families.

>> No.22960753

>>22960695
>It very much isn't
Yeah dude that's why animals don't ever do anything gay or pedophilic
Fucktard

>> No.22960754

>>22960726
>Adultery is still largely frowned upon today
Only by members of dying and primitive religions.

>> No.22960757

>>22960749
>Socrates also promoted restrictive sexual ethics, which also goes against your theory.
no in fact it's exactly what I said, that for Socrates to advocate against wanton fucking would mean he viewed it as a problem in the first place and again, if this whole thread is about female chastity you should have said so in the OP, the answer is at the advent of birth control by the way, it completely changed the female attitude towards sex. Parents bear some responsibility too, often here in America parents will tell young girls not to be sexually active but then force their child on birth control; the paradox here is "I don't want you to be a whore, but I've accepted you will probably be one", to think this message is lost on a child is idiotic in my view.

>> No.22960761

>>22960754
r/cuckholdry is down the hall and to the left.

>> No.22960765

>>22960761
Most people engage in so-called "adultery", even members of aforementioned misanthropic, hateful, primitive, and decaying cults.

>> No.22960768

>>22960741
The discussion here is "did Ancient Athenians and Romans believe that as long as it is consensual, it is OK?"
And they didn't believe that.
Roman women were expected to marry virgin.

>> No.22960771

>>22960765
most mentally well people don't actually but plenty of deranged idiots like yourself everywhere unfortunately

>> No.22960772

>>22960768
Who cares? They are anything but examples of default humans.

>> No.22960774

>>22960753
We are talking about humans. Humans have something called culture and morality.

Also, I would like to remind you that many animals don't have consent in mind.

>> No.22960775

>>22960765
I just pity you.

>> No.22960776

>>22960771
Nope. 90% of people have sex before they marry and the percentage of kids born out of wedlock is approaching half.

>> No.22960779

>>22960768
yeah you should have been more specific this is a thread about female chastity and you mentioned it nowhere in the OP

>> No.22960786

>>22960774
>We are talking about humans.
Humans are just a genus of apes.
>Humans have something called culture and morality.
Yes, that's what I said.
>>22960661

>> No.22960794

>>22960776
i think we're using different definitions of adultery

>> No.22960797

>>22960757
This thread is about the modern era view of sexual morality where "as long as both consent, it is OK".
Someone (likely someone who didn't study history or learned about it from HBO series) argued that the current morality is the default and someone even made an anti-semitic conspiracy theory where the deviation from free sex came from them.

But this is not true. Athenians and Romans did have their sexual morality. They didn't believe "as long as both consent, that's OK". They had rules and moralities on sex.

Roman men were considered weak and effeminate if they were promiscuous, for example.

>> No.22960799

>>22960794
Adultery is sex outside of wedlock. That's literally what the word means.

>> No.22960801

>>22960772
>>22960779
Again, this discussion is if modern sexual morality is the default. The answer is "no, it isn't".

>> No.22960802

>>22960797
>Ancient Greece is the default of humanity
Absolute fucking retard.

>> No.22960805

>>22960801
Yes, it is. Actually, no, you're right, because "modern sexual morality" is still anti-pedophilia and anti-rape, whereas the default stance is that both are permitted.

>> No.22960813

>>22960658
Libertarianism

>> No.22960815

>>22960799
don't get uppity nigger it's legally defined in most places as an extramarital affair

>> No.22960819

>>22960801
Again, it's obvious what you really want to talk about, no need to play coy.

>> No.22960849

>>22960802
>>22960805
>>22960819
Again, the point is that current sexual morality is not the "default". I'm not arguing that Chinese, Greek, Indian morality is the default. But rather the easier, very easy to prove point that current sexual morality isn't the default.

>> No.22960855

>>22960849
there is no default state retard every society developed similar but distinct customs

>> No.22960883

>>22960855
That's my point.

>> No.22960911

>>22960776
>90% of people have sex
It's not the 90s anymore anon, a plurality of people in the west (well, men anyways) don't have sex, period.

>> No.22960972

>>22960753
Animals engaging in homosexual activity is a sign that something is very, very wrong. It's almost always due to extreme distress, severe disruption of their natural conditions, extended captivity etc. Homosexuality doesn't come naturally to them.

>> No.22961012

>>22960658
It's telos is in Christianity

>> No.22961025

>>22960707
Sexual restrictivness existed in all those societies you are misunderstanding the cultural dynamic. Certain cults comparable to subcultures today do not equate to the norm

>> No.22961038

>>22960911
>plurality of people in the west (well, men anyways) don't have sex, period
Do you have anything to back this up? The closest thing I can find is "1 in 4 Americans haven't had sex in the past year," which is by no means a "plurality," though it's still a rather depressing figure

>> No.22961048

>>22961025
Not in the same sense as today. There was no cultural sense of consent which is why there are so many laws in the west to ''protect" women from 'rape'. Talking about consent in cultures where might is right is retarded. As long as you were able to get away with it, you could. Heck, men went to war expecting to rape women and get away with it.

>> No.22961069

>>22960776
>sex before marriage
>adultery
How retarded can you get?

>> No.22961117

>>22960658
Consent with women ultimately doesn’t matter. The idea they’re even able to make value judgments on men is laughable.

>> No.22961160

>>22960722
Achilles stops fighting because his rape slave is taken from him and it is his pouting and not fighting, not his raping that is frowned upon. The idea of consent being essential isn't much of a thing in the ancient world.

>> No.22961170

>>22960776
Fornication is not adultery. Both are bad though .

>> No.22961227

>>22960707
Umm pretty sure this view of a hyper sexually permissive ancient world is a product of Jewish academics

>> No.22961249

>>22961160
It was important among family members. No one would stand for their wife, sister, of mother getting raped. There were laws against it. Men would arrange for their female relatives' marriages with their 'consent' in mind, usually. But for captives and slaves, yeah, no one cared.

>> No.22961259

>>22961048
The anon you are answering is talking about sexual restrictiveness.

>> No.22961298
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22961298

>>22960658
Wow half the people in this thread are really fucking retarded. OP asks a question about the origin of modern consent ethics and a bunch of retards with no knowledge of societies other than their own outside of reddit posts and memes bumble in and start declaring that what they believe/is current is the natural and obvious thing for humans and everything else is and that has existed in the rest of history a perversion of that in the same way a dogmatic religious or ideologue philosopher would so therefore it is all the other sexual traditions of history that must have been invented whereas their way is 'natural'. Would get more insightfulness from some puritan zealot with a loaded musket or a jihadi.

Now the entire thread has turned into a retard slap fight instead of actually addressing what OP said.

>> No.22961458

>>22961259
The idea that a govt/kingdom would be able to restrict sex in antiquity with numerous people being pagans is ridiculous. Sure there were laws but its hardly likely that anyone would be able to enforce them. Unless you are talking about adultery which is self enforceable, no one likes their wife being fucked. That restriction has existed probably even before cities became a thing.

>> No.22961472

>>22961227
The computer you are typing on is a product of jewish science.

>> No.22961491

>>22961472
Yes, and it's made the world objectively worse. If for no other reason than the fact that I can post my inner thoughts here for you to read.

>> No.22961502

>>22961458
Anon, some Pagans have a very restrictive view on sex. A pagan is just someone who doesn't follow an Abrahamic religion.
Platonic and Stoic philosophers were Pagans.

>> No.22961510

>>22961458
Also, this is not even about governments. This might be surprising to you, but in many cultures over indulgence in sex is considered morally wrong. And they are right, by the way.

>> No.22961517

>>22961502
I was mainly talking about the greeks in homer's time not the athenians or spartans, that's why i included it as the last one after the egyptians and assyrians.

>> No.22961530

>>22961510
Again, this view is jewish in nature. Sex in most pagan cultures was used as a form of exchange. In some african cultures, planting a spear in another man's hut means you are fucking his wife and should come back when the spear is gone. Why do you think the colonialists called the colonized savages or barbarians if not for practice like this? The germanics and nordics had these practices too even the romans, the athenians and spartans are a very rare exception because they developed philosophy.

>> No.22961533

>>22960774
>Humans have something called culture and morality.
These are very recent things in human history, and they don't always lead to sexual restrictions anyway.

>> No.22961534

>>22961530
got any citations bub?

>> No.22961587

>>22961530
>The germanics
Were a very puritan group, at least those close to Rome.

>Thus with their virtue protected they live uncorrupted by the allurements of public shows or the stimulant of feastings. Clandestine correspondence is equally unknown to men and women. Very rare for so numerous a population is adultery, the punishment for which is prompt, and in the husband's power. Having cut off the hair of the adulteress and stripped her naked, he expels her from the house in the presence of her kinsfolk, and then flogs her through the whole village. The loss of chastity meets with no indulgence; neither beauty, youth, nor wealth will procure the culprit a husband.

This is Tacitus, by the way. One of the greatest historians of antiquity.

I would also like to mention that most Buddhists do have a sexual ethic that is not permissive either.
Will you continue with your silly anti-semitism?

>> No.22961596

By the way, in some German tribes, even widowed women wouldn't marry again

>Still better is the condition of those states in which only maidens are given in marriage, and where the hopes and expectations of a bride are then finally terminated. They receive one husband, as having one body and one life, that they may have no thoughts beyond, no further-reaching desires, that they may love not so much the husband as the married state.

>> No.22961647

>>22960658
Plato’s dialogue Hipparchus basically pushes this viewpoint but in general rather than merely the sexual. If something is good then you can’t have too much of it.

>> No.22961653

>>22961502
Wrong, pagans were whores

>> No.22961671

>>22961587
Of course you had to mention buddhists and omit hindus, the largest group of pagans today who still have no conception of sexual morality. In india rape is hardly a crime, there's a webm of a teenager that was raped and men all around her are filming her instead of helping her. And of course the celtics were famously liberal with sex.

>> No.22961768

>>22961671
You do know that Hindus view sex outside marriage as immoral, right?