/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22907840]

Thoughts on Christian Existentialism?

[Anonymous No.22907844]

>>22907840
Post bucci

[Anonymous No.22908008]

>>22907840
Materialists would never understand this

[Anonymous No.22908117]

>>22907840
Why do retarded Christians seemingly go out of their way to make themselves look so unhinged and stupid? Why give non-Christians such perfect fodder? "Look, this guy doesn't even care about truth. He only cares about his delusions!" Wow, nice job Fyodor. What a ridiculous situation he's thought up here. So you're telling me that if someone proved to you that THE Jesus Christ who claims that he is "THE Way, THE Truth, and THE Life", and that no man cometh unto the father but by him, was actually NOT what he said he was, and actually a liar, then you would still stand with the lying non-divine only human man Jesus over the Truth. Fyodor, you're a fucking idiot. Why even create such a bogus situation?

[Anonymous No.22908154]

>>22908117
See >>22908008

[Anonymous No.22908180]

>>22908154
Not relevant in any way to what I said. I'm not a materialist, let alone interested in philosophy. I read Plato because he's fun to read, and Aristotle because I enjoy deciphering his ridiculous obscurantist writing.

[Anonymous No.22908208]

>>22908117
Let me try and help you understand. He's saying that epistomologically, the message of Christ, once understood and accepted, transcends all other logic and empiricism and can no longer be displaced from your heart. The human mind is finally at rest in that state (and only in that), and nothing of the world can take it away from you.
>And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.

[Anonymous No.22908223]

>>22908208
Huh? I'm not reading this bullshit.

[Anonymous No.22908269]

>>22907840
Christian existentialists are very based. Even the protestant ones with maybe Bultmann as the only exception.

[Anonymous No.22908336]

>>22907840
They're delusional, as showcased in your quote. Existentialism is delusional to begin with, and the refuge of the narcissist.

[Anonymous No.22908377]

>>22908117
You absolute buffon. You are less than dirt under my fingers nails.
It is not the importance of Christ that matters in this context. Statements regarding Muhammed or any other religious figure would hold as much value.
The thing this man associates Chris with is hope and goodness, he therefore states that even if the existence of hope and goodness itself was disproven, he would still hold hope that such things are the driving force of one's life, even despite the fact that world is clearly an imperfect, disgusting place.
He made this statement as a way to show that even someone tried to strip his belief in perfection and goodness, he wasn't going to loose his hope. It's part of his identity, someone like you (assuming you are an atheist and therefore don't associate Chris with goodness) wouldn't share this sentiment.
Dosto was not an existentialist, he was an optimist.
The point here is not religious bias, the fact that you fail to acknowledge the walue a man has towards his identity and individuality shows you are a massive fag and suck cock.

[Anonymous No.22908394]

>>22907840
>>22908377
In my own life, Christian Existentialism only permitted me to reject Christianity and embrace Existentialism. It is the folly of man, as >>22908223's picture points out. It was an unpleasant road back, but I'm glad I didn't destroy myself more during those years.

[Anonymous No.22908396]

>>22908377
Why not say hope and goodness instead of Christ? Because that's not what Christ represents to him. Christ represents a cudgel that he can use to beat others over the head with. If I may paraphrase him
>if my self-perceived superiority was proven false, I would still cling on to it

[Anonymous No.22908412]

>>22908396
>>if my self-perceived superiority was proven false, I would still cling on to it
Dosto perceived himself as anything but superior, in his writing you can see a lot of self hatried

[Anonymous No.22908425]

>>22908412
That's kind of the Christian thing.
>I'm dirty, sinful and wretched, but I believe in Christ and you don't, and that makes me superior to you
The same trait can be seen in white anti-racists, and their rituals of self-flagellation.

[Anonymous No.22908428]

>>22908377
>he therefore states that even if the existence of hope and goodness itself was disproven, he would still hold hope that such things are the driving force of one's life, even despite the fact that world is clearly an imperfect, disgusting place.
You are reading so damn much into what he said. Go read the quote again and see how ridiculous you're acting.
>The thing this man associates Chris with is hope and goodness
And not Truth? Even though Jesus Christ himself said he was THE Truth? Come on man.
>someone like you (assuming you are an atheist and therefore don't associate Chris with goodness) wouldn't share this sentiment.
I'm a Christian just like you presumably are, anon. Don't think that everyone who criticizes the stupid things Christians do must necessarily be a non-Christian. Christians who try to make arguments like this are already being put to their "last trumps". Reminds me of Pascal's Wager.

[Anonymous No.22908454]

>>22908425
That's true. There is a lot of egoism when religion gets involved.
It's easy to form a sense of superiority when diving deep into religion.
Many Christians do try to force their law onto others. They often form a bipolar type of self image where on one hand they themselves are sinful, but at the same time try to force their beliefs on others.
Dosto doesn't seem that way. All he is doing is stating loyalty towards his beliefs, this loyalty is a good thing regardless of whatever the individual beliefs.

[Anonymous No.22908461]

>>22908428
>>22908377
To make it more clear: Fyodor has created an imaginary scenario where Christ (THE Truth itself) could be separated from Truth, and then proceeded to say that if Christ (Truth) were to be separated from Truth, then he'd still follow Christ (Truth). It's completely nonsensical, but taken at face value, he's already arguing on the terms of a fictional nonbeliever and not on his own, or really on Christ's own terms.

[Anonymous No.22908479]

>>22908428
>You are reading so damn much into what he said. Go read the quote again and see how ridiculous you're acting.
You might be correct. Can't help it, I really like Dosto
>And not Truth? Even though Jesus Christ himself said he was THE Truth? Come on man.
Good point, let's say then that he associated Christ with truth.
My point stands.
>I'm a Christian just like you presumably are, anon. Don't think that everyone who criticizes the stupid things Christians do must necessarily be a non-Christian
Don't care when people criticise Christians, don't like most of them either. I just don't like when people criticise a man with strong conviction and belief in his ideas,regardless of what they are.

[Anonymous No.22908482]

>>22907840
Christians would choose to stay plugged in the matrix. Is anyone surprised that people would opt from internal bliss over reality? Do you masochists enjoy suffering or something?

[Anonymous No.22908506]

>>22908454
I guess my deeper point on Dosto is that none of his books find the humor in life. It's always taken to an absurd emotional pitch in order to prove a point, to preach something to the reader. I find that tendency and his world view pathetic. All of it stems from his Christianity, Russianness and desire to be a great writer.

[Anonymous No.22908526]

>>22908482
lol, lmao even

[Anonymous No.22908527]

>>22908506
>It's always taken to an absurd emotional pitch in order to prove a point, to preach something to the reader
Probably just lack of self-esteem, but can you blame him?
He wanted to be a good man but couldn't.
Don't you have something you want really bad and get upset once you can't get it?

[Anonymous No.22908535]

>>22907840
Christ literally IS truth. Did that really go over Dostoevsky's head?

[Anonymous No.22908554]

>>22908527
Indeed, but now look at the quote in the OP. Is that a man filled with self-doubt, or a self-righteous man? Dostoevsky is the underground man, and we, the readers, are the prostitute.

[Anonymous No.22908585]

>>22908554
>Dostoevsky is the underground man, and we, the readers, are the prostitute.
Very good way to put it.
I guess the question then is, how does one go from being a bad man into become a good man?
My personal bias is to blindly read the scripture and not question the ideas in it too much, since once you start questioning your ideas you become self conscious of them, becoming a man who lacks conviction and goodness.
That wraps back to the statement Dosto is making in op pic.
It's better to be a righteous fool, than a smart man who lacks conviction.

[Anonymous No.22908592]

>>22907840
This is the same sentiment that Paul already takes, so it's nothing new.

>17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins.
>18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
>19 If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.
>20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.
>21 For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead.
>22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive.

Basically you're already too committed and so imagining it's all false is like being dead anyway. So Christ and the resurrection becomes the only possible hope.

[Anonymous No.22908609]

>>22908526
Yeah right, like you'd do it differently.

[Anonymous No.22908615]

>>22908535
Yes. It also makes you a cuck.

[Anonymous No.22908634]

>>22908592
>Basically you're already too committed and so imagining it's all false is like being dead anyway. So Christ and the resurrection becomes the only possible hope.
That is not what Paul was saying. You're boiling it all down to some lame early Church Pascal's Wager. Paul was reprimanding people who claimed to be Christian yet denied resurrection.
>Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

[Anonymous No.22908636]

>>22908585
I tend to believe in a cosmic thread of fate that is completely inescapable. A Calvinist view of things, if you would like to put it in Christian terms. You are either one of the elect, or you are not. And all effort to the contrary will be farcical at best.

To be a righteous fool or a smart man without conviction misses the point in my opinion, because the man is still the man.

[Anonymous No.22908664]

>>22908636
>You are either one of the elect, or you are not. And all effort to the contrary will be farcical at best.
In that case, what can a man who was destined to not be good enough do?
All he can do is have blind hope.
If a bad man does not have that hope he might as well accept his fate and hang himself.

[Anonymous No.22908666]

>>22907840
It's silly. The Church has consistently condemned Fideism. The too-clever-by-half, however, who are wont to bite off more than they can chew and thereby confused by philosophical and theological niceties would do well to drop the books, though, and leave such things to finer minds.

[Anonymous No.22908725]

>>22908664
>If a bad man does not have that hope he might as well accept his fate and hang himself.
Don't you feel relief knowing that no matter what you do, your fate is sealed? This is the true wisdom of the fool.

[Anonymous No.22908744]

>>22907840
Impossible because a Christian would never resign themself to anything existential.
Being obsessed with salvation precludes you from accepting anything about reality or human nature.
Good luck.

[Anonymous No.22908762]

>>22908725
>Don't you feel relief knowing that no matter what you do, your fate is sealed?
No.
Living the life of a failure and dying isn't the most pleasant.

[Anonymous No.22908793]

>>22908117
Fyodor’s ideas are more gnostic than christian by the quote, but it is a real cosmological criteria by both beliefs. God being beyond everything. Even Truth and Reality, and Logic. Is a reaccuring throughout most religion today.

[Anonymous No.22908796]

>>22908793
Without any proof of existence it's the only thing they can fall back on.

[Anonymous No.22908817]

>>22908762
Wish you the best bro. But let's face it, the demiurge is a sadistic son of a bitch. And you will strive and improve, but it will be in a way that is satanically ironic. Because that's the way the world works. Been there, done that. Now I'm just sitting here waiting for death.

[Anonymous No.22908859]

>>22908817
Thank you.
Will try my best.
Good luck to you too.

[Anonymous No.22908970]

>>22908793
>in such moments I have formulated my creed, wherein all is clear and holy to me. This creed is extremely simple; here it is: I believe that there is nothing lovelier, deeper, more sympathetic, more rational, more manly, and more perfect than the Saviour; I say to myself with jealous love that not only is there no one else like Him, but that there could be no one.

It's the opposite of Gnostic. He's saying he doesn't even care about discovering greater levels of truth because faith in the better story wins out.

>God being beyond everything. Even Truth and Reality, and Logic.
Yes, that's how it has to be. It just gets weird with the various ways religions express that and adjust for the introduction of new paradigms over the centuries.

[Anonymous No.22908987]

>>22907840
damn... i was in this same bind but i sided with the truth and now i'm miserable, scared, and alone...

[Anonymous No.22909560]

>>22908394
yeah but you're a faggot who spends his days viciously debating on /lit/

[Anonymous No.22909569]

>>22908117
Because without God, there is only nihilism, which seems like riding a tricycle off a 500 foot clif for humanity. Perhaps it is better to remain deluded.

[Anonymous No.22909603]

>>22908117
Maybe their values are above you?

[Anonymous No.22909604]

>>22909569
uh no? there is also hedonism. maybe more idc but doing drugs and having tons of sex isn't like riding a trike off a cliff

[Anonymous No.22909614]

>>22909603
Read the thread.

[Anonymous No.22909629]

>>22909603
Sounds like you're beneath us.

[Anonymous No.22909630]

>>22909629
*tips*

[Anonymous No.22909662]

>>22909629
THIS. So much THIS. You just destroyed that Christian with facts AND logic! go back home christianity, you're drunk. take my updoot happy cake day kind stranger

[Anonymous No.22909719]

>>22907840
This quote fuels my theory that Dostoevsky was an atheist in denial.

[Anonymous No.22910003]

>>22908117
you will spend your whole life trying to understand what you can only know by feel.

good luck anon.

[Anonymous No.22911349]

>>22909719
they all were. tolstoy went to church and pretended to believe wine was the blood of christ. to an as intelligent a man as him that's obviously ridiculous, but tolstoy made the same argument as dostoevsky here, that the information of life lied not in rationality but belief.

this is insanity you may say and neither dostoevsky nor tolstoy would disagree with you. they simply realized there was no rational defense for life possible because if life is the unending evil the only logical thing to do is to kill yourself. from there they opted out of rationality and simply preferred insanity. in this quote dostoevsky is not saying directly that he chose christ because christianity made sense, it's a testament to how far he intends to his insanity just to stay alive and not to commit suicide.

19th century russia was bleak.

[Anonymous No.22911382]

>>22911349
This
Also Kant proved that it's impossible to prove the existence of God rationally so you have to rely on faith.

[Anonymous No.22911398]

>>22911382
You can also not prove mathematics reasonably so you have to rely on faith. Sure you can tell me that 1 + 1 = 2 but if you dig in deeper you will arrive at the conclusion that "we don't know how we know this" and there is no reason behind it other than taking it as an axiom.

Reason and religion have the same basis

[Anonymous No.22911404]

>>22911398
with that logic everything that exists has the same basis, thus bringing us back to square one

[Anonymous No.22911409]

>>22911404
Yet we define mathematics as being the basis of rationality whence we can know things objectively. If you agree with that, then you have no reason to speak against religion

[Anonymous No.22911414]

>>22911398
>we don't know how we know this
We know it through observation, but we cannot provide an inductive reason that covers all use cases. That's a standard of proof that religion does not even come close to.

[Anonymous No.22911428]

>>22911414
And why does your observation work? Apply the Socratic method to whatever response you come up with and you will inevitably have to rely on faith

Anyway basing your entire worldview in being sure that there is nothing outside of what you see and not ever questioning seems silly, and is a dead-end. We can discuss this for hours as is so common in this board but we will arrive in the same place we left off: one goes home being a Christian and the other an atheist, repeating it all tomorrow

[Anonymous No.22911444]

>>22911409
it's stupid not to compare the coherence of things just because we can never totally know everything. considering mathematics is more convincing than christ being the son of god one could have all sorts of objections against religion.

[Anonymous No.22911451]

>>22911428
Doesn't matter if you're Christian or not, you shouldn't use Godel's theorem to try to prove a larger principle about life. It's dishonest at best.

[Anonymous No.22911683]

>>22911382
>>22911349
>>22909719
> intelligent man being a Christian? Impossible, he must have been one of us!
In the same vein as those nazi larpers that think Genghis Khan was somehow a blonde aryan

[Anonymous No.22911688]

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with Christian existentialism.

[Anonymous No.22911761]

>>22911683
>christcuck can't read between the lines
Many such cases.

[Anonymous No.22911772]

>>22911761
You're the type to find plastic whilst looking for gold and call it a diamon