Buddhist literature

[Anonymous No.22845097]

I'm having a hard time determining if I should follow the Theravada or Mahayana (including Vajrayana/Dzogchen) path. Is there comparative literature that can help me make an informed decision? I already know the concrete differences between the two branches but am drawn to aspects of both.

[Anonymous No.22845353]

>>22845253

[Anonymous No.22845356]

>>22845097
Theravada. But replace abhidhamma with madhyamaka

[Anonymous No.22845362]

The Dharmic faiths are the religions that you need to be least concerned about spiritual optimization. If you choose a sub-optimal path you will still make progress and can do better in the next life.

[Anonymous No.22845364]

>>22845097
Mahanya is the stage after Tribulation Transcendence Realm. The stage after Mahanya is Immortality.

[Anonymous No.22845370]

>>22845356
Is there anyone who did this and wrote/talked about it?

[Anonymous No.22845374]

>>22845356
>But replace abhidhamma with madhyamaka
or better, dump abhidhamma and madhyamaka

[Anonymous No.22845386]

>>22845374
Why?

[Anonymous No.22845393]

>>22845386
they were never needed in the first place, and confuse the teaching even more. Those books are the typical illustration of the good intention turned into a complete mess which does not help anybody at the end.

[Anonymous No.22845397]

>>22845393
Madhyamaka and Yogacara provide a solid framework though. Leaving everything unanswered is unsatisfying

[Anonymous No.22845406]

>>22845364
Elaborate

[Anonymous No.22845432]

>>22845097
the least delusional, the most philosophical/psychological, therefore Theravada,

[Anonymous No.22845473]

>>22845097
Zen.

[Anonymous No.22845474]

>>22845473
Zen leads nowhere.

[Anonymous No.22845486]

>>22845474
Where are you going?

[Anonymous No.22845516]

>>22845486
Nirvana

[Anonymous No.22845704]

What‘s like the basic bitch lit to learn about buddhism?

[Anonymous No.22845708]

>>22845704
What the Buddha Taught and In the Buddha's Words. There's a chart somewhere around here but those two will get you started.

[Anonymous No.22845714]

>>22845708
Thank you

[Anonymous No.22845745]

>>22845097
Theravada practice (satipatthana), complemented by Madhyamaka metaphysics and perhaps some complementary high level tantra (Six Yogas of Naropa) aiming to realize emptiness is the ideal path.
Theravada is too fixated on their vision of orthodoxy. Mahayana is all over the place and many are crypto-vedantists. Vajrayana's vision is often interesting but polluted, however I think there is value in these schools nonetheless.
Instead of rigidly fixating on one view, take what is good in all schools. This modern, Buddha-less age requires some kind of "Pratyekyayana" so to speak, imo

[Anonymous No.22846182]

>>22845708
>In the Buddha's Words
Great book. Focused on theravada though

[Anonymous No.22846201]

>>22846182
well it's the buddha's words

[Anonymous No.22846231]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKdkSsSK2v0
M-mahayanabros...?

[Anonymous No.22846376]

>>22846231
>Mara created Mahayana
In all objectivity this makes sense. I say this despite having a strong interest in Vajrayana

[Anonymous No.22846410]

>>22846231
isnt this the guy who claims to be alt-right and buddhist or something

[Anonymous No.22846444]

>>22846410
idk

[Anonymous No.22846631]

What are the best dhamma talks you've come across?

[Anonymous No.22846763]

>>22845704
The Foundations of Buddhism by Gethin.

[Anonymous No.22846771]

>>22845097
Hey man, I was just at a Theravada monastery for a month and a bit. Amaravati monastery @ England, it's a forest tradition originating from Thailand.

My meager recommendation is to visit monasteries and talk to the monks, or try to find lay practitioners to talk to (which you will also find in the monasteries).

>>22846631

I'm obviously biased but the 4 booklets on the divine abiding by Ajahn Amaro were fantastic. Also "the 4 noble truths" by Ajahn Sumidho was recommended by many in the monastery I was. I liked it as well.

[Anonymous No.22846789]

>>22846771
Thanks anon. The forest tradition is the Theravada branch I most often hear about, is it currently the main extant form of Theravada or are there others?

[Anonymous No.22846809]

>>22846771
What is the monastic life like?

[Anonymous No.22846816]

>>22846763
Seconded

[Anonymous No.22846829]

>>22846789
Not really, but it's really flourishing at the moment. Compared to mahayana in the west though it's nothing. Perhaps plum village is the most popular at the moment? I'm not sure and am wildly speculating.

I'll note that they have a strong orthodox tint and a strong intellectual rigor which I imagine makes them popular for people who go on 4ch. If you google sutta translations you find translations from their branch.

>>22846809

I should already be in bed but if you'd like I can do a small write up tomorrow anon, most likely by evening.

[Anonymous No.22846836]

>>22846829
I feel like the west used to be really into Zen, then focus shifted towards Vajrayana, and those two are currently the most popular branches of "western" Buddhism.
>intellectual rigor
Like focus on Abhidhamma literature and such?
What do you mean by orthodox tint?

[Anonymous No.22846956]

>>22845097
Read Vasubandhu's Abhidharmakośa-Bhāsya so you can understand the underlying unity of all Buddhist vehicles

[Anonymous No.22846964]

>>22845745
>This modern, Buddha-less age
We're still in the age of Shakyamuni's dispensation of the Dharma, there can't be any Pratyekabuddhas

[Anonymous No.22846970]

>>22845356
>Theravada

Agreed!

>>22846410
Yes, but despite him being of attainment, I'd be wary of consuming his content unmindfully. He enjoys sensuality a little too much perhaps. I mean, he's bound for liberation, but craving is bitch and he's probably hoping he gets all seven lifetimes, if you know what I mean.

The Four Noble Truths
1. Suffering is inseparable from existence.
2. Craving is the root cause of suffering.
3. Suffering can be ended by ending craving.
4. There is a path to ending craving and suffering.

∞ archive.org/details/WhatTheBuddhaTaught_201606
∞ buddhanet.net/audio-lectures.htm

To gain merit and help others, take this info and spread it online! If it's not Theravada, it's heresy!

[Anonymous No.22847014]

>>22846970
>If it's not Theravada, it's heresy!
Explain the heretical beliefs of Mahayana

[Anonymous No.22847018]

>>22846970
What about the 17 other early schools, were they all heretics?

[Anonymous No.22847025]

One picture is an ugly lesbian sitting down.
The other is a transcendent sky god with telekinesis.
How tf is this even a question for you?

[Anonymous No.22847045]

>>22845097
Ditch the books and get into the actual practice. I can enter into the first few jhanas and I don't even know what the difference between Theravada or Mahayana is lmao, let alone studied Buddhist metaphysics in any real way. Lmao nigga just put the books down, stop jerking off, and concentrate on your meditation object until Samadhi is reached

[German Slav No.22847096]

>>22847014
The Buddha did not teach a path for everyone to become a Bodhisattva because being a Bodhisattva is not for everyone. If you want to try on your own, go ahead.

>>22847018
"Say something if it is true, useful, and it is the time and place."

It doesn't matter because that is not useful.

[Anonymous No.22847102]

>>22847014
The Buddha did not teach a path for everyone to become a Bodhisattva because being a Bodhisattva is not for everyone. If you want to try on your own, go ahead.

>>22847018
"Say something if it is true, useful, and it is the time and place."

It doesn't matter because that is not useful.

[Anonymous No.22847131]

>Beginning with the Tathatavada of Asvaghosa and the Vijnaptimatrata or the Abhutaparikalpa of Asanga and Vasubandhu, Buddhism was marching slowly but steadily towards the Upanisadic view of the Brahman as the Supreme Being. In the conception of the Vajrasattva and the Lord Srimahasuka of the Vajrayanists the monistic view of the Supreme Being is clearly established. In the conception of the Sahaja or the svabhavika-kaya (the body of the ultimate nature) of the Sahajiyas the same proclivity to conceptualize it in the image of the monistic Supreme Being cannot be ignored. Quite often, the Upanisadic portrayal of the Brahman as having hands and legs on all sides, having eyes, heads and faces on all sides, having ears in all the worlds on all sides and as pervading the whole universe, are all applied to this Sahaja.

>And this Sahaja is none but the self, and all the worlds are the transformations of this one Sahaja-self, all the universe is pervaded by the Sahaja-self, and nothing else is to be found anywhere. All the various phenomena produced by the deeds (karma) of the beings are nothing but the modes and modifications of the self-revealed Sahaja; but though they are Sahaja in the ultimate nature, they are created in their varieties through mentation as the subject and the object. The Sahaja is all itself the sustainer, the performer, the king, and the Lord. It is the life of the sentient, it is the supreme and immutable, it is all-pervading and inhabits all the bodies, it is the great life (the vital process) and the whole universe is imbued with it, all the existent and the non-existent and everything else ensue from it and it alone. It is the Being of the nature of pure consciousness, it is the eternal sovereign personality, it is the jiva (the individual personality), it is time, and it is the ego.

Shankara called, he said that it's okay that the Vajrayanists borrowed his homework, he says that they can keep it and he hopes that it helps them in their pursuit of enlightenment

[Anonymous No.22847198]

>>22847131
Dharmakaya isn't a "Supreme Being," it isn't a thing. It is the realization of the emptiness of mind, it is not a transpersonal, monistic mind substance.

[Anonymous No.22847220]

>>22847131
Well I hope Nagarjuna's homework helped Shankara in his pursuit of enlightenment

[Anonymous No.22847339]

nigga, just be a good person, be aware of your surroundings and take a minute to reflect on yo damn self
shits crazy
shits caused by needing it
you can drop that shit by seein the above
gd nigga, this ain't rocket science

[Anonymous No.22847347]

>>22847045
How do I not break the nofap streak? Tentation is everywhere

[Anonymous No.22847380]

>>22847347
asubha

[Anonymous No.22847401]

>>22847380
Hot

[Anonymous No.22847406]

>>22847380
As a layman, I don't want to become impotent. Just deal with these desires skillfully

[Anonymous No.22847412]

>>22845097
>Vajrayana

[Anonymous No.22847482]

>>22845474
good

[Anonymous No.22847962]

>>22845097
I think it eill mainly depend on your physical options, i love theravada, but the best schools in my city are vajrayana, so that's what i'm practicing, also Nagarjuna is an amazing author and the tantric simbolism is cool

[Anonymous No.22848011]

>>22847131
Vajrayana uses tantric practices that are way older than advaita, and the dharmakaya is not brahman

[Anonymous No.22848340]

>>22847198
>Dharmakaya isn't a "Supreme Being
That post isn't talking about the Dharmakaya sweetie, it's talking about the Svabhavikakaya. The Svabhavikakaya represents the inseparability of the 3 kayas and is sometimes treated as a fourth kaya, but the different Tibetan schools have varying opinions about this. In the Kalachakra the 4 kayas are mapped out to the three states of waking with the Svabhavikakaya corresponding to the 4th state that pervades them all, the Turiya, which is an idea taken from the Mandukya Upanishad where Brahman corresponds to the 4th Turiya.

[Anonymous No.22848347]

>>22848340
*three states of waking, dream and dreamless sleep (+ Turiya as the 4th)

[Anonymous No.22848582]

>>22848340
The Svabhavikakaya is the harmony and interdependence of the 3 kayas, is not a 4th substantial self suficient body that could exist outside of this interdependence

[Anonymous No.22848593]

>>22846836
>Zen
Forest tradition is actually very close to Zen in spirit! Their practice was described to me as "relaxed zen" by one of the senior monks.
>orthodoxy
Theravada is the orthodox school - I mean it is the school most focused on tradition and keeping to the original texts, and the forest branch is the orthodox branch within Theravada. It is rare to see monasteries keeping the full Vinaya (monastic law), as more modern branches like mahayana adapt it to their living reality and even in Theravada schools a monastery keeping the full Vinaya is rare. Forest tradition keeps it.
Apparently, a joke in Thailand goes like this: If you see two monks walking, and they are frowning, then you know they're from the forest tradition!
This is not to say one is better than the other, simply noting the difference.
As for intellectual rigor, if you read Ajahn Thanissaro (he has a lot of texts on the net), the man writes like an engineer for spirituality. It's very inspiring for me. Amaravati monastery was actually not highly intellectual - Ajahn Cha (He's a very important figure which was the teacher of the founder of the western monasteries) emphasized practice over learning. But you will be hard pressed to find "voodoo" and such - the monks can be extremely intellectual (especially the western ones). They might believe that the Buddha could fly and that spirits exists and talk to them, but they won't try to make you believe it...
Many of the monks have degrees. A fair portion could have "made it" in lay life but chose to leave it for the practice.

[Anonymous No.22848628]

>>22848582
The second paragraph is basically repeating what the Hevajratantra says verbatim about it being the pure consciousness, Lord, performer and sustainer that pervades everything and which is the immutable source of everything.

[Anonymous No.22848655]

>>22848628
>The fact that the mind is by nature empty, that it is nevertheless the place where phenomena appear, and that it is beyond origination and is therefore unceasing-this inseparable union of the three kayas is called the Svabhavikakaya.
Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
>>22848340
The 4 states in the kalachacra weren't inspired by the saiva agamas of the tantric tradition, no advaita influence there

[Anonymous No.22848693]

>>22848655
Quoting one guy means nothing to me, I've already mentioned that the different Tibetan schools having *differing* interpretations of it. Dolpopa has his own interpretation that maps up with his Shentong. Tsongkhapa considers it to be a distinct kaya on its own and not merely the inseparability of the 3. I'm not saying that it maps 100% to Brahman anyways. If you have any familiarity with the source texts of both traditions however the Vedantic/Upanishadic evidence is obvious if you compare it to eg the Pali Canon. The Hevajra Tantra and other Tantras doesn't resemble Buddha's teaching at all but it's repeating stuff that comes from the Upanishads (everything from subtle bodies and vital force to the 4 states and one self-revealing reality that makes up everything and inhabits all bodies is found in the primary Upanishads and not the Pali Canon) and further repeating the vocabulary and metaphors and imagery of the Advaita gloss on the Upanishads but with an added gloss of emptiness.

>bro stfu it was revealed by Manjushri/Nagas who coincidentally are only coincidentally repeating all this stuff from the Upan-
please

>The 4 states in the kalachacra weren't inspired by the saiva agamas of the tantric tradition
I didn't say they came from the agamas but I clearly wrote that it comes from the Mandukya Upanishad which expounds the same idea and which predates the Buddhist tantras by centuries

[Anonymous No.22848750]

hey anons Let's not fling mud. The different views and opinions regarding the best way to study the Buddha are an important debate, so it should not be carried out with hostility.

[Anonymous No.22848782]

>>22848693
https://studybuddhism.com/en/glossary/svabhavakaya
Here you have the main deffinitions of svabhavakaya, none of them resemble brahman one bit

[Anonymous No.22848802]

>>22848782
>omniscience
>luminous awareness
>nondual
>two truths
so 0% buddhism, 100% post buddhist hinduism

[Anonymous No.22848819]

>>22848782
>none of them resemble brahman one bit
The description of it in hevajra as the Lord and source and pure consciousness which inhabits everything is basically copy and pasted from the Upanishads was the original point, this is what shows the obvious Upanishadic/Vedantic influence regardless of how later people interpret it. But even the descriptions listed in your link has obvious parallels in that the 3 kayas are said to be inseparable like how the triune of sat-chit-ananda or sat-jnana-ananta attributed to Brahman refers to an ineffable unobjectifiable unborn nature that is inseparable and which makes up ultimate reality, and which the relative is a display of without becoming something separate.

[Anonymous No.22848821]

>>22848802
All those terms are present in advaita because gaudapapa was heavily influenced by nagarjuna tho, so is to be expected a buddhist school has similar terms with a hindu school influenced by madhyamaka buddhism

[Anonymous No.22848827]

>>22845097
>I'm having a hard time determining if I should follow the Theravada or Mahayana (including Vajrayana/Dzogchen) path
Try them both out and see what works. For me it was vajrayana. This isn't all theoretical, there's a strong practical element as well

[Anonymous No.22848896]

>>22848821
>All those terms are present in advaita because gaudapapa was heavily influenced by nagarjuna tho
Wrong, they are already present in the Upanishads before buddha and almost a thousand years before Nagarjuna, and Gaudapada cites them as his source (they are in the Gita and Puranas and other Hindu texts too). Also the two-truths in Gaudapada and Nagarjuna mean two different things, Gaudapada follows the Upanishadic idea of it as an independent self-sufficient reality being the ultimate truth

[Anonymous No.22848911]

>>22848819
Hevajra tantra has tons of version with tons of translations each and as a tantric esoteric text can't be interpreted at face value, you need a guru to understand the book, so what you interpret of that text worth next to nothing, and as said before vajrayana uses the tantric system not the vedic philosophy, the 4 bodies in the kalachacra are inspired by the shavist agamas(with some agamas predating the vedas) and not advaita, advaita uses a lot of buddhist notions like reflexive awareness and luminous awareness a lot tho, shankara pretty much just adapted the vedas to a buddhist framework, that gave him his fame of crypto-buddhist in hindu circles

[Anonymous No.22848929]

>>22848911
>with some agamas predating the vedas)
lol, there is 0 evidence for that and plenty against it

>advaita uses a lot of buddhist notions like reflexive awareness and luminous awareness
Those aren't Buddhist notions but they are originally Hindu, they are mentioned in both pre- and -post Buddhist Upanishads. The Brihadaranyaka talks about the Self knowing itself and being 'immediate and direct' and being it's own light and the Katha talks about it being self-shining awareness

>shankara pretty much just adapted the vedas to a buddhist framework, that gave him his fame of crypto-buddhist in hindu circles
No he just gives a straight forward exegesis of the Upanishads but without any stuff added from apocraphal agamas or pancharatra

[Anonymous No.22848940]

>>22848911
Also, the part you said about the Guru is nonsense, the plain text description is what is carefully lifted from or inspired by the Upanishads, that sort of language is so unique that is shows up no where else is world literature EXCEPT the Upanishads and Hindu works derivative of the Upanishads (like Shaiva Agamas which present themselves as a continuation of Vedas/Upanishads) and then shows up in Buddhism over a thousand years after the first Upanishad.

You don't need a Guru to see that the plain text imagery is obviously inspired by it and no esoteric interpretation can change that, even if the esoteric interpretation explains away or disagrees with the surface meaning

[Anonymous No.22849028]

What‘s the tldr on all this stuff

[Anonymous No.22849180]

>>22849028
There is dissatisfaction, caused by craving which is caused by ignorance. Everything including "yourself" is impermanent, interdependent with other things, and cause for dissatisfaction. There is a way out of this, but it can't be described, so meditate

[Anonymous No.22849229]

What does sadha mean in Sanskrit?

[Anonymous No.22849271]

>>22848929
Nah the concept of Svasaṃvedana started with the sautantrika school, and was elaborated by a bunch of people like chandrakirti and dignana

[Anonymous No.22849479]

>>22849028
Buddhism is a way of life and philosophy devoted to finding and putting into practice the best way out of suffering, stress, age, death.

[Anonymous No.22849615]

>>22848940
I practice Dzogchen, if you read Dzogchen tantras like the Kunjed Gyalpo at face value you would think Dzogchen is monotheism, but that is completely incorrect. A statement like "before me there were no buddhas or sentient beings" is not describing a monotheistic creator, it is describing your own rigpa. The "All Creating King" isn't God, it is your own consciousness which reifies appearances into objects. The descriptions in other tantras should be interpreted the same way. They are intentionally obscure, because you need empowerment from a guru to do these practices, and you need instruction to understand these texts.

[Anonymous No.22849648]

>>22848693
I have never encountered a discussion of turiya in any Vajrayana teaching

[Anonymous No.22849768]

>>22849615
>because you need empowerment from a guru
why? before me there were no buddhas or sentient beings :^)

[Anonymous No.22849944]

>>22849271
> Nah the concept of Svasaṃvedana started with the sautantrika schoo
That’s the beginning of it within Buddhism. The pre-Buddhist Upanishads like Brihadaranyaka were talking about it before Buddha even existed, much less abhidharma schools, kek.

[Anonymous No.22849957]

>>22849944
okay well then provide the pre-buddhist texts which go autistically into details about Svasaṃvedana , like brahmins have done for sanskrit and their shitty rituals for centuries.
It shouldn't be hard since over thousands of years before the buddha, hundreds of thousands of brahmins would have debated and written an enormous corpus of books about this supposed jewel of a teaching, the most important that only them understood.

[Anonymous No.22850017]

>>22849768
No, "you" are a sentient being, your rigpa existed before you failed to recognize appearances as expressions of your own state and became a deluded sentient being. Rigpa has to be pointed out by a guru.

[Anonymous No.22850065]

>>22849957
The Upanishads are the first texts to speak about it in all of world history and religion and they are aphoristic primordial revealed literature, they aren't written like an academic treatise.

The Brihadaranyaka speaks about the Self being its own light, after first setting up the idea of other things like sun etc being the light in previous verses, it then negates these and says that the Self is the root or base self-shining light that provides its own illumination, which is the same idea as saying it's self-revealing or self-disclosing (svaprakasha)

‘When the sun and the moon have both set, the fire has gone out, and speech has stopped, Yājñavalkya, what serves as the light for a man?’ ‘The self serves as his light. It is through the light of the self that he sits, goes out, works and returns.’ ‘Just so, Yājñavalkya.’
- Brihadaranyaka Verse 4.3.6:

There are also multiple verses (3.4.1, 3.4.2, 3.5.1) in the same Upanishad where the Self is said to be "immediate and direct", which refers to how reflexive awareness is the most immediate thing about empirical experience, i.e. it's always known and self-disclosing and all empirical knowledge becomes possible through the light provided by this, as Chitsuka says the Self is "immediate, yet not an object"

'Yajnavalkya,' said he, I explain to me the Brahman that is immediate and direct-the self that is within all.'
- Brihadaranyaka 3.4.2

The idea of the Self being inherently self-revealing is also expressed by the Upanishad when it talks about how the knowers function of knowing can never be lost because it's immortal, and that in dreamless sleep it's still fully present but there is nothing else for it to reveal; this communicates the Self as being intrinsically something that reveals things through its own self-disclosing presence, with the revealing of objects being contingent on if the objects are present and not related to any change in the Self since the Self is automatically a revealer through its light.

That it does not know in that state is because, although knowing then, it does not know; for the knower's function of knowing can never be lost, because it is immortal. But there is not that second thing separate from it which it can know.
Brihadaranyaka 4.3.30

A later primary Upanishad, the Svetasvatara, also talks about the Brahman-Atman being self-luminous, but here it's just expressing an idea already made clear by the Brihadaranyaka saying that the Self (that it calls Brahman) is Its own light

And when the yogi beholds the real nature of Brahman, through the Knowledge of the Self, radiant as a lamp, then, having known the unborn and immutable Lord, who is untouched by ignorance and its effects, he is freed from all fetters.
Svetasvatara 2.15

The Self−luminous Lord, who is fire, who is in water, who has entered into the whole world, who is in plants, who is in trees−to that Lord let there be adoration! Yea, let there be adoration!
Svetasvatara 2.17

[Anonymous No.22850079]

>>22849648
If you read the whole Kalachakra you'll find it

[Anonymous No.22850096]

>>22850065
He, the One and Undifferentiated, who by the manifold application of His powers produces,
in the beginning, different objects for a hidden purpose and, in the end, withdraws the
universe into Himself, is indeed the self−luminous−May He endow us with clear intellect!
- Svetasvatara 4.1

The Maker of all things, self−luminous and all−pervading, He dwells always in the hearts of men.
- Svetasvatara 4.17

As the sun shines, illumining all the quarters−above, below and across−so also God, self−resplendent, adorable and non−dual, controls all objects, which themselves possess the nature of a cause.
- Svetasvatara 5.4

Some learned men speak of the inherent nature of things and some speak of time, as the cause of the universe. They all, indeed, are deluded. It is the greatness of the self−luminous Lord that causes the Wheel of Brahman to revolve.
- Svetasvatara 6.1

We know Him who is the Supreme Lord of lords, the Supreme Deity of deities, the Ruler of rulers; who is higher than the imperishable prakriti and is the self−luminous, adorable Lord of the world.
- Svetasvatara 6.7

[Anonymous No.22850194]

>>22850065
The self being self revealing is not the same as awareness being reflexive, one implies a self the other doesn't also all the text you just post never adress the reflexive quality of awareness by some vague notion of the manifestation of the self, the one who saw reflexive awareness in the self was shankara because his guru gaudapapa was inspired by the buddhist teachigs of his time

[Anonymous No.22850341]

>>22850194
>The self being self revealing is not the same as awareness being reflexive
The Self being self-revealing automatically follows as a consequences of awareness being reflexive and vice versa if the Self is pure awareness, and if the root awareness is none other but the Self, and these two points are exactly what the position of the Upanishads is, the Brihadaranyaka very clearly establishes this by referring to the Self as the knower and the luminous light within the intellect, other Upanishads explicitly say its pure consciousness/awareness.

So, even though Buddhists interpret reflexive awareness in their own selfless way hundreds of years after the Upanishads already did, the Upanishads even before Buddha as well as after Buddha were already talking about an Atman-Brahman Self of self-revealing pure awareness.

>you just post never adress the reflexive quality of awareness by some vague notion of the manifestation of the self,
No, its not vague, the Upanishad very clearly specifies that the Self provides its own illumination, and it further says that this revealing capacity is inherent to the Self and never lost

> the one who saw reflexive awareness in the self was shankara because his guru gaudapapa was inspired by the buddhist teachigs of his time
Laughable cope, the Upanishads say the the Brahman-Atman provides its own illumination before Buddha was even born.

[Anonymous No.22850592]

>>22850341
Again provide countless examples of this most powerful teaching. Provide a book as long as the Rigged Veda hammering that the Self provides its own illumination.

[Anonymous No.22850645]

Surely the most important teaching in Hindusim and therefore the world has more than one lousy cryptic line in a book.

[Anonymous No.22850705]

>>22845097
All you need to read OP.

[Anonymous No.22851171]

>>22846809
>>22846829
Hey anon are you back?

[Anonymous No.22851188]

>>22845356
Everytime I see these indian words it looks like "ablooblooblahblah" to me

[Anonymous No.22851193]

>>22845704
Buddhism For Dummies

[Anonymous No.22851476]

Are abhidhamma subjects of meditation (like kasina etc) worth anything?

[Anonymous No.22851750]

>>22851476
Anapanasati alone will literally take you to Nibbana. Nothing more is needed.

[Anonymous No.22851929]

>>22851476

[Anonymous No.22851932]

>>22851929
So which meditation method leads to enlightenment? Is it really as simple as >>22851750?

[Anonymous No.22851990]

>>22851932
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQNHLO7s1N4

[Anonymous No.22852873]

[Anonymous No.22852890]

If you were born in to a traditional Buddhist time and place, then you would follow that type. As a westerner you can pick and choose.
As for me, I am interested in Japanese culture and language so zen appeals to me. But I started out by reading
<Awakening the Buddha Within
By Lama Surya Das>
If you are going to join a Buddhist meditation group then the decision might be made for you according to which is accessible to you.

[Anonymous No.22852930]

>>22850341
>No, its not vague, the Upanishad very clearly specifies that the Self provides its own illumination
The idea of self being self revealing is on itself vague, "the self" can be interpretated in tons of different ways, even between vedantic philosophies, the fact that you choose to link it with buddhist reflective awareness just show your crypto-buddhist advaita bias

[Anonymous No.22853188]

where is the anon who claims to have found some inconsistencies in the book ''what the buddha taught'' ?

[Anonymous No.22853403]

>>22851171
oh no one told me they'd like a write up so I didn't write one. today is a bit busy but I promise to do so by the weekend (I can open a new thread if this one will close)

[Anonymous No.22853414]

mahayana in general is very popular in the west, plum village in particular

[Anonymous No.22853449]

>>22845097
Most actual Buddhists don't think this hard about it unless they are becoming monks

[Anonymous No.22853458]

>>22853403
Thanks friend

[Anonymous No.22853577]

>>22853403
how old are you and what was your motivation to join a monastery?

[Anonymous No.22854130]

>>22853449
Most "actual" practitioners of religion do it culturally and have no actual involvement in the tradition past a superficial ritualistic habit

[Anonymous No.22854390]

>>22845097

Take a globe, find your city. Now take a piece of string, thread, or fiber and extend it to 1.) Thailand, and cut it so you can see how long it is. The next step is, take another piece of string, thread, or fiber and extend it to 2.) Tibet. Cut the string. Which one is longer? The shorter string is the more direct way, for you.

Share this message with at least five of your followers or you will suffer the Buddha's curse. My cousin Jeffrey ignored this message, now he has colon cancer.

[Anonymous No.22854561]

>>22851990
I don't get what he's getting at in many of his videos.

[Anonymous No.22854795]

>>22854561
But did you understand what he's getting at in that video? I found him as the most lucid comentator on Buddhism, atleast to my western mind.

[Anonymous No.22854855]

>>22854795
Not really. Honestly, his manner of speaking doesn't resonate much with me. As far as Dhamma talks go, I prefer Thanissaro or Vimalaramsi

[Anonymous No.22855002]

>>22854855
Nyanamoli approaches buddhism through late Ven Nanavira's writings and western philosophy, like Heidegger and Kierkegaard. He is very matter of fact and practical. Thanissaro is way too vague for my taste. But you should listen to whoever works for you, just be mindful not to be mislead.

[Anonymous No.22855428]

>>22853414
Feels like, to me, we are in a dawning new age of Theravada for western Buddhism thanks to a couple skilled white convert monks disseminating their takes. But maybe I'm biased because one of the local temples to me is Thanissaro Bhikkhu's, and I've grown to admire the Thai forest monks.

t. dabbler

[Anonymous No.22855621]

>>22855002
>mislead
How do you know if teachings are corrupted?

[Anonymous No.22855697]

>>22855621
By becoming Sotapanna. There is no other way. Or you can atleast get a teacher who is a Sotappana. Also sticking to texts which are recognized to be Buddha's word. That would be original Vinaya and Sutta pitaka, Abhidhamma's authenticity and usefulness is questionable. A Puthujjhana's practice is sadly one giant stumbling trial end error.

[Anonymous No.22855759]

Honestly don't just dive into one tradition autistically, but get benefits and see the downsides of all traditions. Theravada has good points, so does Tibetan, Zen, etc.

The Buddhist scene is hopelessly infested with hucksters who want your money and cargo cult idiots who want to recreate Tibetan culture in Western countries.The best thing is to keep an independent mind and steer your own course by getting the best information from all sides. Buddhism can get very wordy and convoluted but for myself I've narrowed it down to a few basic points which help me in life.

[Anonymous No.22855807]

>>22853414
plum village mixes in a bit of theravada in it tho

[Anonymous No.22856037]

>>22845097
I decided to practice Vajrayana because I saw a vajra and thought it looked cool

[Anonymous No.22856092]

Mahyana. Only low IQ south Asians are theravadas

[Anonymous No.22856218]

>>22856037
I picked it because one book told me vajra was a secret code word for penis

[Anonymous No.22856360]

>>22855697
Abhidharma is what allows you to determine whether a teaching is Buddhist, it's very useful

[Anonymous No.22856681]

>>22853577
>>22846809

I am 24. I was visiting England to visit a good friend of mine and was informed that there are monasteries there in the forest tradition of which I was exploring for about a year by my own - reading Ajahn Thanissaro's text and watching Ajahn Brahm's videos.
I was motivated by suffering. I don't deal well with this modern life. I stay in my shell, have a tendency to contempt and arrogance, frequently anxious. I also wanted to see the monks. For a year I built up an image in my head of a monk as some half holy being and I wanted to go see how they are actually.

Chithurst is beautiful. It's a film. The monks there are noisy! many young men, bolsterous. There was a box of protein powder on the breakfast table which they said was donated half jokingly. There was a gym near the workshop which the laity and the monks would use. I regret that I was only there for a week.

in Amaravati I was longer. It was going to be just a week as well, but I'm an israeli and the troubles of October happened, so I decided to stay longer - stayed with some family friends, then came for another 10 days in Amaravati, which was kindly extended for another month as someone else cancelled their stay.

Amaravati is much larger. ~40 monks and ~20 nuns, and ~20 laity on full days. There is not much contact with the monks themselves there because of this - a senior monks stays around after lunch to talk, and you can talk to the monks in the work period, but generally the monks disappear into their practice after lunch. (There are private areas in the monastery where the laity are not allowed to go).

>The monastery life

Now for what you are actually interested in :)
These monasteries are very lax. You wake at ~5, go to a chanting session and meditation with the monks, do a few chores, eat breakfast, work period till lunch, lunch, and then you're free. At 5 there is a tea session for the laity which is not mandatory (it's like a sanity break) and at 7 there is another chanting and meditation session.
Meditation sessions are silent - there is no spoken instruction. Once a week there (tends to be) a Dhamma talk from a senior monk, and maybe a Q&A for the laity (for which people around the monastery comes to). At moon days (empty, half, and full moons) there is a chant to take the 8 precepts and a group sitting till midnight, which is not mandatory for the lay.

All this to say, that it's not a "meditation retreat". You can basically do whatever you want... As long as you follow the 8 precepts. That, dear friends, means no entertainment (a light book is ok). Life is very empty there.

I need to take breakfast and prepare for going with my pa to the market.
Not to leave you hanging, it was very good for me. All in all, going back to existing in the mind I had before this experience is repugnant. I'll write more later.

[Anonymous No.22857078]

>>22856681
As Ajahn Sundara told me, the best benefit of the monastery is that you have the time to look at yourself. It's a very protected location - All the necessities are provided, supporters arrive regularly to give food and help, and everyone is trying their best.
Still, by the end of the stay I felt terrible. I just wanted to come back home (even with the war), so I could... what? masturbate? eat a taco? drink a beer? ( I don't drink in regular life anyway). To step away from the monastery. Trying to narrow the issue down to bare words feels vulgar and unhinged, like an analyzee's wild speculation.
I read a lot. I read two thirds of hamlet, two thirds of stoner, a random communist manifesto from sari lanka, two thirds of a thick Steven Pinker tome. The library at both monasteries was excellent and showed great taste (I am not very literary in persuasion).
People are interesting in there. The protection and the general striving in the air causes, i think, a freedom to express and experiment. They will call B.S. on things, or stay silent, or cry... And a strong sense of connection, as it is living in a community. I did think of the Amish when we were setting up some huge tent, lol. The senior monks are all very different from each others. The young monks are all very serious and striving, except when they're not.
Ajahn Amaro is ridiculously intense. Is it him or his status as the Abbot? Or my hero worship? who knows. He talks to someone, and there's 3-4 people in line, and I never feel he's even aware of them. He just talks, and when he's done with one conversation, he starts another. Ajahn Sundara got a phone call when we were talking, and she thought it was her sister. It was a teleprompter, and she shouted "NOT INTERESTED" and hung up. That was pretty funny. She also said, I quote "I don't want to die, if someone would kill me, I'd probably kick him, I mean, but i'm not afraid"
The monks are just people in the end.

pic related is from monastery. Had to cut quality to get file-size down, sorry.

[Anonymous No.22857081]

>>22857078
And have the parami (virtue) of the day

They give out little collections of these cards there.

[Anonymous No.22857142]

How do I meditate in order to fall asleep? I read many people complain they fall asleep, but I just can't. I have to lie on bed for at least one hour everyday to wait until the intrusive thoughts die out.

[Anonymous No.22857145]

>>22856681
can you describe the lay audience? are they old and how good do they claim to be at following the precepts?

[Anonymous No.22857160]

>>22857081
so the nuns and monks live together? that seems weird

[Anonymous No.22857171]

>>22857142
well first you have to cut out any activities several hours before sleep, so no lifting and no coffee and no bright lights

then the sleeping time must be very regular

you can try herbal teas for sleeping, just double the dosage the first few days

then there's really no trick beyond basic reverse psychology given the basic facts that:
-the more you try to stay awake the more you fall asleep
-the more you try to fall asleep the more you stay wake

[Anonymous No.22857190]

>>22856681
>>22857078
This makes it sounds like a relaxed community focused on introspection, and honestly quite comfy if a little austere

[Anonymous No.22857192]

>>22857078
Yeah if you have nothing to gain from the civilian society, you may as well stay comfortable in monasteries or just become a Neet in the countryside if there is no place available.

[Anonymous No.22857403]

>>22857145
>audience
Wide age variety, male and female.
Wide variety in devotion as well as the "strictness" in which they take the precepts. Precepts are viewed as training laws, so everyone takes them a bit differently. Personally I broke down near the end and masturbated haha so you know.
There were around 5-7 lay people who were waiting to become a monk/nun, and a few lay men/women who were committed enough to stay for the winter retreat, a 3 month long retreat in which almost no contact with the outside world is made.
on the other side of the spectrum there were people who were there to try it out, there was a guy who would nip down to the pub (about an hour's walk) to have a beer once in a while, and those who were there because they didn't have anything better to do really.

The monks don't mind. If you don't fit they'll tell you and won't have you for longer, but generally if you contribute to the atmosphere and do your share of the work you can stay. It only takes an email to reserve a place and no pay is ever asked for.

>>22857160
Separate dwelling and areas for monks and nuns, separate dwelling and areas for male and female guests. One or two rooms for special guests who are couples.
>>22857142
Wait but isn't the intrusive thoughts dying out helping you sleep?
>>22857190
:)
>>22857192
For sure. Some people do this: They go to one monastery, then go to another, then another... There are "long term" guests who stay for a year or even more and have a more involved role in the monastery. Groundskeepers will stay for years sometimes.

[Anonymous No.22858162]

>>22849648
It's a really obscure concept in some particular practices, but the vajrayana turiya is completly different from the vedic one, is not a substance that creates or sustain the other bodies, but the emptiness shared by each of the bodies, or in other words, the idea that there's no substantial difference between the sambogakaya,the dharmakaya and the nirmakaya

[Anonymous No.22858177]

>>22848940
Both vajrayana and vedanta inspired their symbols from the pre-vedic cults of the region, what's important is the core teaching in the practices, and vajrayana and vedanta practices are incredible different even if they share some names or images, trying to argue about which one draw the first blue dude with a lot of arms is shallow and childish

[Anonymous No.22858663]

>>22845708
Anyone got the chart?

[Anonymous No.22858834]

>>22846182
Everything in it is from the sutta-pitaka. "Theravada" orthodoxy is not represented, i.e. there's nothing from abhidhamma, Buddhaghosa, etc. Most of what's in that book is also found in the agamas in the Chinese and Tibetan canons, so it can also be used as a basic framework to get into later maha/vajrayana.

[Anonymous No.22858847]

>>22858663

[Anonymous No.22858973]

>>22858847
Thanks alot anon