/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22780360]

Who was right?

[Anonymous No.22780367]

Reality is the appearance

[Anonymous No.22780369]

>>22780360
Plato was right, Schopenhauer was a closeted gnostic

[Anonymous No.22780378]

>>22780367
t. hylic

[Anonymous No.22780387]

>>22780369
But gnostics would agree that reality is better than the appearance.

[Anonymous No.22780396]

Reality just is.
As a biologist I think I’d side with Schoppy though. Life is just endless suffering

[Anonymous No.22780439]

>>22780396
You must imagine endless suffering as a good time.

[Anonymous No.22780446]

Schopenhauer obviously. Life is horrifyingly ugly. We can only withstand it because we are under the influence of our illusions in our daily lives. Only a monster would like what for what it truly is which is cruel battle for survival.

[Anonymous No.22780447]

>>22780360
Plato is right, Schopenhauer is so depressing

[Anonymous No.22780448]

>>22780360
Both

[Anonymous No.22780449]

>>22780439
I really don’t

[Anonymous No.22780486]

>>22780439

[Anonymous No.22780513]

>>22780387
both see what is responsible for our empirical experience as being bad in some way

[Anonymous No.22780515]

>>22780387
Gnostics would agree that this “reality” is a false reality created by a false god demiurge who thrives on suffering. The platonic demiurge was just a craftsman, and believed him to be good, since the “world was good.” Circular logic

[Anonymous No.22780534]

>>22780515
Yes, but the core salvific opportunity offered by Gnosticism is direct knowledge of the hidden true Godhead or higher realities through Christ, emissary of the Godhead or Monad. The divine spark in us is liberated and returns to the divine reality (or the pleroma) through gnosis in Gnosticism. So it’s as much salvific or offering hope in a greater reality as it is focused on “condemnation of the world” (which I find is both overrated in people’s discussions here of Gnosticism, while they simultaneously underrate how similar attitudes are found in the New Testament and in many other mainstream religious traditions, of viewing our incarnate embodied life as having something inherently corrupt in it).

[Anonymous No.22780622]

>>22780360
Schopenhauer is on the right side.
This didn't need a tread, OP.

[Anonymous No.22780640]

>>22780360
Appearance is initial perception
Reality is indifferent to your interpretations

>>22780439
You focus on the changes of reality as "suffering".

[Anonymous No.22780849]

>>22780360

[Anonymous No.22780861]

>>22780360
Schopenhauer
World is a fucked up place, a giant open sewer.

[Anonymous No.22780875]

>>22780360
They hated Schopy because he told them the truth.

[Anonymous No.22780898]

>>22780360
Things are beautiful to see, but dreadful to be. That's what Schopenhauer says. Not irreconcilable with Plato.

[Anonymous No.22780911]

Every scientist agrees that the model they are building only relates to reality with the lowercase r. Reality with a capital r will always be outside of our grasp due to the inherent limits placed on us via the 5 sensory organs, which are in themselves limited with the range of data they can process. With technology, we can explore a bit more but we will forever remain ignorant of the timeless beings that float within the interstices.

Scream yourself to sleep.

[Anonymous No.22780914]

>>22780360
Schopenhauer LITERALLY said the appearances of things is much worse than true reality.

[Anonymous No.22780927]

>>22780911
Good one

[Anonymous No.22781406]

>>22780914
Post the quote

[Anonymous No.22781434]

>>22780360
Neither
Read Derrida

[Anonymous No.22781441]

>>22781406
It's fundamental to his entire philosophy. How do you think Schopenhauer resembles Eastern religion? What a retarded, high school-tier thread.

[Anonymous No.22781449]

>>22781441
So you can't find the quote?

[Anonymous No.22781813]

>>22780360
schoppy for sure especially if you're concerned with the material world alone

[Anonymous No.22781824]

>>22780360
Neither, there is no reality without the appearance. That being said, plato was a cuck and schoppy was based.

[Anonymous No.22781844]

>>22781449
Name literally any aspect of Schopenhauer’s philosophy and the principle I stated is described in it.

[Anonymous No.22781861]

>>22780849
glass is neither half full nor half empty
glass is twice as large as it should be

[Anonymous No.22781869]

>>22780360
Schoppy obviously, reality only becomes nastier the more it's observed. Take something like prion diseases, for example. The more we learn about them, the more horrific we learn they are.

[Anonymous No.22781890]

>>22780360
Left is correct, if "reality" is considered as what is "real", and what is real is considered what has a fundamental existence, then reality is much better than appearance. Appearance is an inferior projection of reality.

[Anonymous No.22782922]

>>22780360
Buddha agrees with Schopenhauer, people live under illusions to make life more palatable, reality like the truth is ugly. Plato is just doing what the normies do by creating another illusion but by doing so he acknowledges that the physical world is ugly, thus he needs cope.

[Anonymous No.22782943]

>>22780446
Those illusions are what makes life so ugly in our perception.

[Anonymous No.22782953]

>>22782943
You chase them because they are beautiful but yes they can cause suffering because what you are chasing is ultimately false.

[Anonymous No.22782986]

>>22781869
>diseases
that’s an appearance though

[Anonymous No.22782998]

>>22782986
The reality is that you are a helpless animal who is going to die.

The cope, illusion or "reality" would be that you are going to a good place called heaven.

[Anonymous No.22782999]

>>22782998
I don’t appreciate your rotten attitude.

[Anonymous No.22783000]

>>22782986
>sir I'm sorry to inform but you have a major brain tumor
>don't worry Doc, tumors are merely appearances, or as we in philosophy say, phenomena, and have no teleological signifier. I will simply think it away.

[Anonymous No.22783005]

>>22780360
They don't contradict each other

[Anonymous No.22783060]

>>22783000
Kek’d

[Anonymous No.22783179]

>>22782922
>no, no you don't get it, nirvana is totally different from the wold of the forms!

[Anonymous No.22783182]

>>22780360
If reality was better than the appearance then it wouldn't have necessitated the distortion of reality in the first place.

[Anonymous No.22783215]

>>22783179
Nirvana is Samsara.

[Anonymous No.22783245]

>>22783215
Nice cope.

[Anonymous No.22783248]

>>22783245
What form did Buddha attribute to Nirvana?

[Anonymous No.22783253]

>>22783248
Let me guess, you think the Forms are literal physical objects and that 'observation' of them is just like observing an object? Have you read Plato AT ALL?

[Anonymous No.22783258]

>>22783253
It's not a hard concept to grasp, retard. Answer the question.

[Anonymous No.22783277]

>>22782999
>rotten attitude

the brain rejects it anyways, you're going to be fine anon, totally life will be awesome and sweet!!

[Anonymous No.22783395]

>>22783248
>>22783253
>>22783258
Nirvana is a vegetative state. A celery probably.

[Anonymous No.22783421]

>>22780360
Neither, because both "much better" and "much worse" depend upon the vibration of consciousness in a dual mode, aka judgement,

Though given plato understood that by noesis man could possess the vision of God, which is properly "non-dual" and therefore "unknowable" it is still "better" and "the Good"

Schopenhauer if I understand correctly is a crypto-bodhisattva or really a true nihilist who imagined his own hell, given his theory of "will" I dont think he was really such a pessimist, he probably rested in the will of God, also that the appearance is a contingent non-eternal illusion which is attended by misery and suffering is clear, but this is the first step, once the bodhisattva has comprehended the pain of existence and is awakened to compassion, bodhicitta, he then heeds the words of the buddha to subhuti, "deny the attribute, and the denial of the attribute" giving way to prajna "wisdom" which leada to full nondual buddhahood.

Of course the level of compassion of each man, is really something which depends upon his life experience, he doesnt even need to learn about it, same with wisdom, also you can have some wisdom but when it is not connected to compassion, all you get is "fear" of this horrible existence.

Amen

[Anonymous No.22783424]

>>22783395
Yes nirvana is a celery.

[Anonymous No.22783431]

>>22783421
莫逐有縁 Do not pursue Being and entanglements;
勿住空忍 Do not dwell in Emptiness and sufferance.
一種平懷 When the mind is at peace in Oneness, 泯然自盡 Thus are these eliminated, and naturally fade away.
止動歸止 When you try to stop activity to return to stillness, 止更彌動 This stillness further increases activity. 唯滯兩邊 If you are always caught in one side or the otherA, 寧知一種 How can you know Oneness?
一種不通 When Oneness is not understood completely, 兩處失功 Both of these viewpoints lose their usefulness :
遣有沒有 To reject Being is to merely lose Being;
從空背空 To embrace Emptiness is to merely be burdened by Emptiness

[Anonymous No.22783562]

>>22780367
Appearence is reality

[Anonymous No.22784056]

>>22783562
Logos uncovers reality. Appearance can be a rock that obscures reality. Logos is what uncovers.

[Anonymous No.22784577]

>>22780911
*destroys the noumena-phenomena distinction*

[Anonymous No.22784616]

>>22780360
>Who was right?

[Anonymous No.22784621]

>>22780378
Berkeley said the same thing. Matter does not exist

[Anonymous No.22784737]

affirmative reality is a finite judgment and as a consequence will always be the domain of the actual, or namely it only has one modality, being true. appearance as a modality is prior and presents the world from which things are determined to be true. appearance is just being with identity, difference, and ground; being has no reality and you can't premise a judgment on being. reality can be good or bad, appearance can be worse or better, so questioning whether reality is worse or better than appearance is a bit of a weird presentation. you likely wouldn't feel a thing if someone got published for saying "apples are healthy is worse or better than anything but apples", because it would be basically amount to something like, if you think, "reading Infinite Jest in public is good, because, if i didn't then i wouldn't know who likes Infinite Jest, which is better than knowing who like anything but Infinite Jest"
in minecraft of course

[Anonymous No.22784803]

>>22784621
>Matter does not exist
Berkeley never said this.

[Anonymous No.22784885]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington%27s_disease
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffuse_intrinsic_pontine_glioma
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_insomnia
Uh... idealistsisters? Our response?

[Anonymous No.22785049]

>>22782922
Moron, buddhism 101 is the cessation of ignorance and thus rebirth. What do you think ignorance means if not grasping at appearances that make you suffer instead of accepting reality? Understanding reality is a positive thing, it's not ugly, its because we are ignorant that we don't understand this and thus are subject to samsara.

[Anonymous No.22785120]

>>22785049
Is Nirvana beautiful?

[Anonymous No.22785176]

>>22785049
The fact that you’re clinging to doctrine means you haven’t got a fucking clue what reality is.

[Anonymous No.22787001]

>>22780360
Schopy

[Anonymous No.22787023]

>>22780360
Reality is reality, the appearance is the appearance.

[Anonymous No.22787025]

>>22785176
What's your argument? There are good desires in buddhism, desire for liberation is a good thing, clinging to doctrine in so far as it gets you to the other side is a good thing, you have to rely on doctrine before you can let it go too. I literally have no clue what you're responding to.
>>22785120
I don't think I've ever recalled it referred to as beautiful, platonically, ultimate reality could be referred to as "perfect", but I do recall the buddha saying how horrible samsara is, and samsara isn't "reality", because reality means what is REAL, samsara is illusory, it doesn't have a fundamental existence, it is not reality. Seeing through illusion, ie appearances, is always a positive in buddhism, if not central to it.

[Anonymous No.22787058]

>>22787025
Why are you relying on the Buddha, you tell me what reality is, since I am a moron.

[Anonymous No.22787106]

>>22780439
That's just called coping. What makes more sense is if you imagine suffering as meaningful.

[Anonymous No.22787115]

>>22787058
Because it was in response to the original post, moron. I wouldn't be talking about buddhism otherwise, whether it's buddhism or something else the truth remains the same.
>Buddha agrees with Schopenhauer, people live under illusions to make life more palatable, reality like the truth is ugly. Plato is just doing what the normies do by creating another illusion but by doing so he acknowledges that the physical world is ugly, thus he needs cope.
Then I respond to this post by correcting the misunderstanding of buddhism, fucking hell where's your reading comprehension.

[Anonymous No.22787117]

>>22780367
perception of reality manifests as appearance. There is no objective appearance as all perception is subjective.

[Anonymous No.22787118]

>>22780360
If appearance corresponds to the total sum of all the factors that affects one's perception of reality, then yes Plato is correct (Seneca).

[Anonymous No.22787122]

>>22787115
Literally no different than a Christian and yes that's an insult.

>thinks his religion is gospel truth
>has no actual spiritual experience
>thinks life is hell and nirvana is heaven
>so certain of his borrowed knowledge that he insults others

[Anonymous No.22787129]

>>22780911
how can you know it exists if it is unknowable?

[Anonymous No.22787143]

>>22782943
wrong. One example is the olfactory senses. We've evolved to get used to our own (stinky) smell, without it we would've gone insane from smelling ourselves.

[Anonymous No.22787169]

>>22787122
Who are you talking to, I literally never say any of this. The whole chain is just me correcting someone that says the buddha would agree with Schopenhauer. To reiterate
>Buddha agrees with Schopenhauer, people live under illusions to make life more palatable, reality like the truth is ugly
This is wrong, reality is defined as what is real, in other words what has a fundamental existence. Living in illusion is literally what samsara is, people do not live under illusion to make life more palatable, but because they are ignorant. The buddha would never say reality, or the truth is ugly, wisdom is always a positive thing, illusions are always a negative thing. This is literally it, this is literally all I was saying, that this is what buddhism teaches, not that I think buddhism is the gospel, but that what the anon said was not true, that it wasn't true the buddha would agree with schopenhauer, THAT'S IT. I don't believe in religion, I don't think life is hell and nirvana is heaven, nirvana isn't even defined as a place anyhow, but when some moron says shit that isn't true they should be called out for it.

[Anonymous No.22787183]

>>22787169
That anon may be wrong but so are you. Reality has no attributes. Maybe humble yourself a little and rid yourself of your own ignorance before asserting what reality is or isn't.

[Anonymous No.22787442]

>>22787129
>germs didnt exist until the microscope was invented
retard

[Anonymous No.22787507]

>>22787442
Germs does not fall into the 'unkowable' category, since it can be perceived by the five senses, moron.

[Anonymous No.22787883]

>>22787129
just like we cant know all the digits of pi but we still know that they are there

[Anonymous No.22787892]

>>22780360
Left is what I tell the ladies.

[Anonymous No.22787896]

>>22783421
>>22783431
>>22784737
fucking pseuds on this site
they're a plague

[Anonymous No.22788335]

>>22787507
With the aid of an instrument, retard

[Anonymous No.22788341]

>>22780367
Fool that you are!

[Anonymous No.22788357]

>>22783431
Madhyamakaniggers BTFO!

[Anonymous No.22788369]

>>22784621
> Berkeley said the same thing
In his system the ‘reality’ is God, who he considers as being indeed more real than empirical phenomena

[Anonymous No.22788373]

>>22784885
>ummm if idealism is true then you should be able to think away diseases
Nobody claims this

[Anonymous No.22789605]

>>22787143
I'm a sperg and life is a lot more difficult when you think everyone stinks. I'm kind of used to my own, but for example, I don't get how guys think women smell good. It's all just different kinds of stinky BO.

[Anonymous No.22789658]

>>22785330
He embraced nihilism in the Fichtean rather than the Schopenhauerian sense. Nietzsche didn't really solve "nihilism" per se. It could be said that he also embraced active nihilism, as complete destruction of the "thou shalt" according to his notes.

Here is an essay expounding the topic. Feel free to share your thoughts. Sorry for the camscanner link, i dont know what formats are compatible with 4chan and long image pdf dont work.

https://cscan.co/3eZBL02hzYb

[Anonymous No.22789783]

I often spend entire days internally seething about normalfags but schope threads and other internet pessimists usually make me have the other reaction. I guess mostly because they advocate for voluntary antinatalism or some other method of depopulation that's too quick and easy for what humanity actually deserves

[Anonymous No.22789789]

>>22789783
You think people deserve to suffer, yet you, a person, avoid suffering. Curious!

[Anonymous No.22789809]

>>22789789
False, I injure and sabotage myself constantly

[Anonymous No.22789814]

>>22787896
Hyli...How are you...

[Anonymous No.22789822]

>>22787896
Also I did the 2 first posts I dont claim the 3rd

[Anonymous No.22791124]

>>22787892
underrated post