Punctuation

[Anonymous No.2275824]

As you might infer, I am foreign (and by that I mean my mother language is NOT english). This is, perhaps, not the most adequate place to ask this, but I'll do it anyway.

This question is mostly directed to americans, but feel free to answer. Are you, in school, taught how to properly use commas, colons and etc, with a series of "MUST OBEY" rules or what?

I ask this because my mother language, portuguese, is quite bossy about punctuations. There are seeeeveeralll rules that must be followed and are treated as vital. And I don't really see that here. They are different languages, I now, but it has become a habit to use my country's punctuation rules even when I'm not actually using it.

Secondary question, quite related: has my punctuation bothered you in some way?

[Anonymous No.2275831]

As long as you use the correct form of to, your, and there...I will never complain.

[Anonymous No.2275830]

Punctuation is functional. It is used to clarify meaning, but, in English, it's also used to try and mimic speech patterns.

The easiest is example is the questioning inflection teenaged girls have when they talk. In text, an author "could have them talking like this? So that the lingering last syllable? Comes through?"

It simply must be the same in Portuguese, no?

[Anonymous No.2275835]

>Are you, in school, taught how to properly use commas, colons and etc, with a series of "MUST OBEY" rules or what?
Canadian here, yes. We have mandatory English classes from the start of our education, all the way to the end of our secondary schooling. I was only taught punctuation rules during my first five years of grade school, and from there, it was all essay writing.
>has my punctuation bothered you in some way?
No, not at all. Getting fussy over grammar and punctuation over the internet is silly, since not everyone can type properly. Especially those 'Wh0 Tip3 li3k DizZ!1'.

[Anonymous No.2275836]

We general are taught strict rules in elementary school for structure. I think most educated Americans realize that English grammar isn't so set in stone once in college.

Your punctuation hasn't bothered me, but I noticed you used many more commas than most people would.

[Anonymous No.2275839]

>Are you, in school, taught how to properly use commas, colons and etc, with a series of "MUST OBEY" rules or what?

We should be, but most English teachers are so bad that they fail to teach them poor chilluns anything. The rules of punctuation can be bent a bit, but anything too extraordinary will not read well.

>Secondary question, quite related: has my punctuation bothered you in some way?

No, probably because I'm used to people not being able to use punctuation properly.

[Anonymous No.2275848]

OP, does the Portuguese language have an authority that regulates the rules of your language?

I know the French do, and I think it's quite insecure to regulate a language. The rules used in a language are completely arbitrary and agreed upon by usage convention. It's not like these authorities can do anything about changing conventions, anyway.

[Anonymous No.2275888]

"seeeeveeralll" made me laugh

[Anonymous No.2275899]

Caralhos voadores, são sempre os brasileiros macacos querendo aparecer falando do próprio país. Adoram gritar pro mundo todo que são brasileiros, isso porque chupam rola de gringos quando eles estão no Brasil.

"I am foreign", você é estrangeiro num fórum internacional? É claro que fodendo não, que se foda a sua língua mãe, você está aqui de igual pra igual com americanos, poloneses, alemães e o que quer que seja. Ou você faz isso para aparecer, dando aquela impressão de "país exótico e bacana" ou faz isso com um certo sentimento de auto-piedade.

Stealth, cara. Não precisava falar porra nenhuma do seu país nessa thread. Não estou falando de esconder, mas é notável o seu desespero e o desespero de tantos outros para essas coisas, acho inacreditável essa macaquice.

>seeeeveeralll
Avoid this. Try to articulate your phrases and vocabulary without having to resort to this kind of thing.

And you're fine, geez, it's the same fucking thing for punctuation, more or less. You just have to get used to it a little more, but you have no problems and everyone can read you just fine. Be a little more confident.

[Anonymous No.2275901]

>>2275848
Yes, they have rules like everyone else, but the problem is that the system pays too much attention to it. During the authoritarian right-wing dictatorship in Brazil they ruined public education in terms of social sciences and language, focusing on things like grammar in detriment of literature for example. We are still feeling the after effects of that.

And the rules are in constant change, but they seem to just get worse. Recently there was a major reform in the Portuguese language, like there was in the 70s and in the 40s before that, if I'm not mistaken. It was a bitch to see the discussion between Portugal, Angola and Brazil on the subject, over something so small (imagine a large scale fight on whether "colour" or "color" should stay, same thing). The Brazillian Academy of Letters decided a few things based on what is more "practical" according to them, but truth is they were absolutely arbritary about certain things, deciding on what would change and what would stay the same just from their own instinct. They are trying to simplify language by creating more rules and more exceptions. I don't see the point in any of this, I already find fucking wrong to have an authority deciding this shit. This changes mean past documents are becoming harder to read faster than they should be. As far as I know, last time the English language changed like this was to abandon "thou" for "you", we had about four major changes like this in the twentieth century.

[Anonymous No.2275909]

>>2275831
>>2275831
>>2275831
>>2275831
>>2275831

[Anonymous No.2275923]

since it seems some brazilfags are here tonight:

could you gentlemen translate this sentence for me please?

Capoeira que é bom não cai
Mas se um dia ele cai, cai bem
Capoeira me mandou dizer que já chegou
Chegou para lutar
Berimbau me confirmou vai ter briga de amor
Tristeza, camará

thank you

[Anonymous No.2275930]

>>2275899
this nigga

[Anonymous No.2275934]

>Are you, in school, taught how to properly use commas, colons and etc, with a series of "MUST OBEY" rules or what?

Yes. This is actually not the optimal way to teach English — English is simply a matter of conventions of grammar, spelling and definition between native speakers — but then again a high school class that encourages the class to create their own dialect instead of learning more universal basics wouldn't be too useful.

I doubt many (I include myself here) remember whichever set of rules concerning the semicolon they once memorized, however. The general rule, as in all things English, is to use the conventions you're comfortable with as a native English speaker. (Probably why non-native speakers like you have to ask strangers for help.)

>I ask this because my mother language, portuguese, is quite bossy about punctuations. There are seeeeveeralll rules that must be followed and are treated as vital. And I don't really see that here.

There are competing sets of rules for just about everything, including semi-colons, so even if every English speaker followed "the rules," you'd get a myriad of punctuation schemes.

>has my punctuation bothered you in some way?
No. But you haven't really done anything complicated, like lists within lists or whatnot.

So long as you don't learn grammar from reading Thoreau you'll be fine. (Dashes everywhere.)

[Anonymous No.2275944]

>>2275848

You clearly haven't spent a night in French Language Jail.

[Anonymous No.2275946]

>>2275824
>This question is mostly directed to americans
>Are you, in school, taught how to properly use commas, colons and etc
No. Public schools sucks.

[Anonymous No.2275948]

This reminds me of when the Germans bought the nuclear power plant in the Simpsons

'I must have phrased that bad. My English is, how you say, inelegant.'

[Anonymous No.2275960]

>>2275923

Capoeira who is good, doesn't fall!
But if he falls, falls well

Capoeira told me
To tell you he is here
He is here to fight
Berimbau confirmed me
There will be a fight for love
Sadness, comrade.

Capoeira is the dance/fight, but here it's short for "capoeirista", the dancer/fighter himself.
Berimbau is the instrument they play during the fight, google it.
"Camará" is short for camarada, or comrade.

It sounds very weird translated.

[Anonymous No.2275968]

>>2275960

thanks!

here is the song if you were wondering

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA83H3-o9uM

[Anonymous No.2276000]

There are no 'correct' forms of English, as such. There are, however, a number of rules based on common usage in academic writing.

More than several, there are thousands. They range from idiomatic usage (different from or different to) to punctuation (it's or its). Most style guides are against plain prescription - if someone wants to use ain't as a shortened form of are not, they should be able to. However, the rules are there because they often sound better, have clarity or show brevity.

There are a number of books on the subject. The one I recommend is called 'Mind the Gaffe'; it's an introductory text to academic 'correct' usage of the language, but for British readers.

[Anonymous No.2276029]

Not really.

I mean, we have "comma splices", but that's really just incorrect use of a comma. As for semicolons, I don't think most English-speakers know what they are or how to use them.

Colons always come before a list, and a list is separated by commas(with an "and" before the last clause). But yeah, those are the only rigid "rules" of mid-sentence punctuation. At least, off the top of my head.

Mostly comma/semicolon use is dictated by writer preference, and whether their use makes sense within the sentence.

I guess what I'm trying to say is there are *wrong* ways to use punctuation in English - but there are no *right* ways (for the most part).

[Anonymous No.2276030]

>>2275824
>seeeeveeralll

Don't be a faggot. Portuguese punctuation boils down to avoid being a fucking retard and slicing down clauses. You won't be probably using anything more than commas in your life.

Punctuation seems rare in English language because written English is less winding than written Portuguese, as we tend to write much longer sentences and paragraphs as well use a much larger number of connectives.

>>2275899
Pare de jogar o seu complexo de vira-lata para cima dos outros e ganhe alguns anos a mais de vida.

[Anonymous No.2276099]

>>2276030
Isto aqui. Ache o que quiser,>>2275899, mas não foi com essa intenção que criei esta thread. As pessoas não podem perguntar coisas na internet por interesse próprio? É por raiva e ignorância como essas que abandonei o /b/. Não quer brincar direitinho, ou troca de creche ou continua aqui(mas não garanto que tenha companhia). E acho graça da sua coragem em dizer que chamo atenção para o fato de que sou brasileiro sendo que você foi o primeiro palhaço a se vestir de amarelo, verde e azul e agitar a festa gritando em português. Stealth, né?

E sim, concordo, as regras de pontuação do português são baseadas em poucos conceitos que acabam por ter cada forma de uso especificada como regra. Como eu disse, entendo que são linguagens diferentes e que a simples estrutura frasal é diferenciada, mas o meu interesse é diretamente focado na maneira em que eles aprendem a pontuação. Aqui no Brasil é um conteúdo extremamente formal, de tal forma que duvido muito que alguém passe pelo EM sem ver pontuação. A várzea tem que ser muito grande, nesse caso. Com as respostas desses caras, estou satisfeito.


Thank you, fellow neo/lit/hical writers and readers! My question has been answered.

[Anonymous No.2276724]

>>2275968
I know the song and I love Baden Powell!

>>2276030
>>2276099
Que resistência, apenas comentei. Acredite, fui mais sutil falando português no meio de um tópico do que criando um com o mapa mundi selecionando o Brasil. Não é minha intenção dar uma de vira-lata ou nada do tipo, pelo contrário, acho que sem perceber é isso o que me parece nesse tópico. Sei que não criou a thread pensando nisso, mas acho que isso está marcado na nossa cultura e o fazemos quase sem querer, por isso alertei.

[Anonymous No.2276781]

>>2276099
>>2276030
>>2276724

Where exactly in Brazil do you come from, if I may ask?

Somewhat related: I've found it quite useful to learn German on what comes to proper punctuation. If you're thinking Portuguese is complicated, you should see how strict the rules for comma usage are in the German language.

[Anonymous No.2276861]

>>2276781

>>2276724
>>2275960
>>2275901
>>2275899
Here.

São Paulo.

[Anonymous No.2276877]

>Secondary question, quite related: has my punctuation bothered you in some way?

No.

[Anonymous No.2276883]

>>2275848

Yes they kan. Languaj reforms hav hapened many times, eeven for major languajes. In fakt, Portugees has resently been reformed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reforms_of_Portuguese_orthography

-

Languaj reform without a languaj kounsil wil be hard or imposible. I supose the politicians kud make a law about the mater and fors all government bodys to folow the new rules. This inkludes publik skools.

[Anonymous No.2276885]

>>2276883
Listen, language reform guy. The only effective and necessary changes in a language are brought about organically. If a language doesn't change it's because there is no need for it to change.

[Anonymous No.2276893]

>>2276885

I think u shud avoid using loaded/misleeding terminolojy like "organic".

Besides, wat u stand is fals, and eesyly demonstrateably so.

[Anonymous No.2276927]

I went to a Catholic school in the U.S. It did little for my moral compass and was generally a bit of a waste of money, but I had an English teacher who was the original Grammar Nazi and so gestapo'd the rules into us.

>>2275944
I would love to do this.