Start with the Greeks

[Anonymous No.22731461]

>Whiteness was associated with femininity. Aristophanes’ Thesmophoriazeusae 191-192 has Euripides criticising Agathon as λευκος (white), γυναικοφωνος (woman-voiced), and ‘απαλος (soft). His Ecclesiazeusae 428 similarly has a young man described as λευκος proposing that women should rule the city. Xenophon’s Hellenica 3.4.19 records Spartan soldiers, on seeing that their enemies are λευκος, deciding that fighting against them would be ει γυναιξι δεοι μαχεσθαι (like having to fight women). Euripides’ Bacchae 457 has Pentheus describe Dionysus as λευκος, and also ουκ αμορφος […] ‘ως ες γυναικας (not ill-formed […] as unto women, 453-4). The association is quite consistent.
> Meanwhile, Aristotle’s Politics makes a ‘golden mean’ argument about geography and ethnicity, if not precisely skin colour, claiming that Europeans and people living in cold places are θυμοῦ μέν ἐστι πλήρη, διανοίας δὲ ἐνδεέστερα καὶ τέχνης (‘full of courage but lacking in intelligence and skill’), and thus are too disorganised to conquer their neighbours, whilst Asians are διανοητικὰ μὲν καὶ τεχνικὰ τὴν ψυχήν, ἄθυμα δέ (‘intelligent and skilful, but without courage’, Politics 7, 1327b), and that Greeks occupy the perfect mean between the two and thus have intelligence, skill, and courage. Pale-skinned northern Europeans, then, he represents as inferior.
> As with Ancient Egyptians, Mycenaean Greeks and Minoans generally depicted women with pale or white skin and men with dark brown or tanned skin. As a result, men with pale or light skin, leukochrōs (λευκόχρως, "white-skinned") could be considered weak and effeminate by Ancient Greek writers such as Plato and Aristotle.
> White skin was so strongly associated with women that Aristotle felt compelled to offer a biological explanation: women lose so much blood during menstruation, that it makes them pale.
> The examples given in LSJ indicate that leukos, meaning "white-skinned" (entries II.b and c), is "a sign of youth and beauty" (II.b) when applied to women, but means "weakly, womanish" (II.c) when applied to men.
> Furthermore, Agathon's effeminate good looks feature white skin (leukos, 191). Stehle notes that "His mask was probably white, the standard type for an effete male in Aristophanes"
> In Xenophon pale skin comes to signify 'physical debilitation,'
> Aristophanes’s schema is simple and essentialist: white skin = woman, tan skin = man, and suggesting the opposite = comedy.

[Anonymous No.22731465]

>>22731461
*slurp*
yes he's jokering in this year

[Anonymous No.22731467]

>>22731461
Chuds anally obliterated by this post

[Anonymous No.22731486]

>>22731461
Who's gonna tell him that they're talking about sun tans and principle of being an active, community-particapating member - who's out in the sun and thus gets a tan - vs the principle of being passive, akin to a woman - who was not allowed to leave her home as often and thus didn't get as tan as her male counterpart. They're literally dissing shut-in geeks and nerds who skipped out on working their bodies.

[Anonymous No.22731493]

It means lacking a tan because you stay inside all day. Same phenomenon in Indian and East Asian cultures, all the women want to be as white as possible because it means you aren't a laborer who spends all day in the sun, you are fair-skinned. It should be translated as fair in this context, not simply white, as that clashes with modern racial understandings. It basically means "lily-livered" when used in a martial context, probably combined with "green," recently arrived to the front, and maybe even "you stay in your tent all day, you are just out here playing soldier but you aren't a real soldier." This is actually proved by the quotes below the Aristotle quote, which all make the association explicit. Men who stay in the home or tent like women all day are shameful. Paleness is the opposite of tannedness, not "blackness" in the modern sense.

The author exploits further ambiguities in saying "Asian," when she knows full well that the Greeks meant Eastern Mediterraneans and Near Easterners. Also, Aristotle is obviously referring to northern barbarians like the Celts and Germanics, but also undoubtedly "Asiatics" in another sense, i.e. Steppe Scythians and Hunnics. In fact he is probably saying partly the opposite of what this person wants him to be saying here. In any event, he's making a typically ancient humoral and climatological hypothesis about temperament, nothing racial. Extremely tendentious reading of this by the author here, and reveals (if read carefully) that she (not Aristotle) meant Europe by "cold places" and non-Europe by "Asia," an East/West division, where Aristotle in fact meant a north/south (or more likely: middle vs. antipodes) division, which would include a lot of "non-whites" in the "lacking in intelligence" category.

Also if you want to make the weird race-obsessed case that the ancients weren't whites or hated whites or whatever, you should include the Herodotus quote about Ethiopians being beautiful.

[Anonymous No.22731494]

>>22731486
/thread

[Anonymous No.22731496]

>>22731486
You read the OP. Very cool.

[Anonymous No.22731516]

>>22731461
Απόλυτα ορθόν μάι νίγγα

[Anonymous No.22731526]

>>22731467
Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Persians and others were the chuds though

>>22731486
Correct, they had no examples of pale people being admirable

[Anonymous No.22731583]

[Anonymous No.22731614]

>>22731583
>90-144 CE
Also whats the original?

[Anonymous No.22731639]

>>22731496
People like the OP are stupid so they're going to assume Greeks were olive skinned when this is talking about spending time outside, doing things. Take a look at Swedes in summer sometime, they turn deep gold.
>>22731583
Essentially Germanic.

[Anonymous No.22731646]

>>22731639
The Greeks were olive skinned. They’re Meds.

[Anonymous No.22731647]

>>22731526
Alexander the Great was pale(Plutarch).
The skin of the Homeric heroes is described as white(leukos).
>>22731614
Polemon is the author, the work comes to us through Arabic copists so the editio princeps is in Arabic.

[Anonymous No.22731678]

>>22731461
I don't think such perception has changed. Tan men are still considered more attractive than pale men, possibly because they are seen as more masculine.

[Anonymous No.22731686]

>>22731678
OP is one of those resentful manlets from /his/ who I guess thinks ancient Greeks were such a peculiar race that the women were neutrally pale but the men were neutrally brown, and it's totally not a matter of socially enforced sexual dimorphism through tanning.

[Anonymous No.22731687]

If they could tan well they were probably type 3, 4, or 5 in the Fitzpatrick scale. Not really Germanic, just regular Meds.

[Anonymous No.22731718]

>>22731647
The conception and perception of colors was much different in antiquity. Some colors we consider normal were never seen by normal people outside of some flowers in a field. You simply cannot translate colors in ancient texts with a naive term like 'red' or 'white' today. Leukos, if referred to skin, meant either not tanned, as in no time spent under the sun, or sickly pale depending on the context.

Both OP and you are miguided.

[Anonymous No.22731732]

>>22731639
>Greeks were olive skinned
They were. Intermediate skin specifically, we got DNA samples from Mycenaean times to Archaic
>Take a look at Swedes in summer sometime, they turn deep gold.
They turn yellow-orange due to sunburns. Melanin is not yellow
helpadane.com

>>22731647
Thus this "paleness" (which you don't post original excerpts of) were darker than their women and med women are generally darker than northern european men. Otherwise why associate paleness with inferiority?
Babby's first color relativism? Or do you think Egyptians were black as Herodotus says?

Yes I know Polemon who lived in the second century CE at a time when Greece was full of immigrants is the author. I was asking for the original word and context he used. Too bad we don't have it

[Anonymous No.22731743]

>>22731686
Pretty sure he takes a piss at people like you. I'm euro med and have never ever seen anyone calling ancient greeks brown, or their women irish-like pale
In fact modern greeks are a bit more generically northern than the ancients, and they are with typical med light olive skin and green (not pink) undertone
Also human males of all races are naturally darker than the females, more melanin. Look it up

[Anonymous No.22731750]

>>22731687
ii and iii yeah. i have encountered iv sometimes but only in few people in the summer, and they lose the tan in the winter

[Anonymous No.22731794]

>>22731732
>Ἀπελλῆς δὲ γράφων αὐτὸν κεραυνοφόρον, οὐκ ἐμιμήσατο τὴν χρόαν, ἀλλὰ φαιότερον καὶ πεπινωμένον ἐποίησεν. ἦν δὲ λευκός, ὥς φασιν· ἡ δὲ λευκότης ἐπεφοίνισσεν αὐτοῦ περὶ τὸ στῆθος μάλιστα καὶ τὸ πρόσωπον
leukos again, literally the color of milk and bones, but keep coping
pic should be the original Arabic but I only read Latin and Greek
Polemon also clarifies that, when dealing about skin, black(You) is the color of cowardice. He only says that "whiteness of surpassing whiteness" is weakness. Nothing surprising, as you'd get similar comments anywhere in the western world until the other day when dealing with people too pasty.

[Anonymous No.22731801]

>>22731743
nah I know /his/ and I'm almost certain I know the poster I'm dealing with
meds have an understandable massive inferiority complex towards their northern neighbors so they try to "get back" with these little online feminine displays, nothing new, I've been long enough on 4chan

[Anonymous No.22731803]

>>22731732
>Um actually my science says that you are wrong

[Anonymous No.22731804]

>>22731794
See >>22731718

[Anonymous No.22731812]

>>22731804
your cope can be ignored as it's just that, cope
leukos is the color of bone and milk in ancient Greek, that suffices to understand what kind of color it is

[Anonymous No.22731816]

>>22731801
> meds have an understandable massive inferiority complex towards their northern neighbors
Don’t insult the Greeks.

[Anonymous No.22731823]

>>22731812
I have had classic training for many years. I know I am right and you are wrong.

[Anonymous No.22731830]

>>22731823
my dad is the greatest living ancient Greek scholar so I'm sorry to inform you I'm right and you are wrong

[Anonymous No.22731837]

>>22731461
ITT: barbarians with no culture or heritage fighting over who is less inferior to me

[Anonymous No.22731851]

>>22731837
without barbarians deciding to autistically dig up the ruins your lowly kind was blissfully squatting upon, we wouldn't even know about Mycenaean Greek
stick to gyros and other activities more befitting to your kind

[Anonymous No.22731853]

>>22731794
Coping about what, Greeks being light skinned? We already knew that
Not sure why you think they literally had the color of milk and bones though, since nobody in the world does. Not even albinos
>He only says that "whiteness of surpassing whiteness" is weakness.
Perfectly in line with OP. Women were paler than the men, and northern men were paler than the med women
>Nothing surprising
Entirely agree

>>22731801
Why would meds have an inferiority complex about? Not having as many african and muslim immigrants or not having to pay 90% of their salary to taxes and rent? you sound very envious anon

>>22731803
If you are saying that Greeks were pale yes. Light intermediate is darker

>>22731812
>that suffices to understand what kind of color it is
Of bone and milk, a color unrelated to skin and thus something OP's writers knew obviously, yet wrote what they did. Why do you think the two contradict each other? They don't

[Anonymous No.22731860]

>>22731851
>We did your job for you!
Thanks for being our servants I guess? Lol
Do it more often

[Anonymous No.22731867]

>>22731837
The sad part is that barbars do have their own heritage but don't care about it a lot. They've been brainwashed into being romanboos

[Anonymous No.22731875]

>>22731486
It’s just low level anti-sperg sentiment

[Anonymous No.22731884]

>>22731853
there are some ancient adjectives related to color that can indeed be less clear, especially if they are non fundamental colors or with weird hard to reconstruct roots or poorly attested: leukos isn't one of them, both due to attested usage for things we can definitely know the color of, as mentioned, as well as its indo-european root, very trivially related to Latin lux = light
hence the translation as "white" is hardly arguable, unless dealing with internet medcel copers
we can see exactly what you are doing, since this isn't the first time you make this exact thread

[Anonymous No.22731901]

>>22731461
Another nigger demoralization thread.

[Anonymous No.22731909]

>>22731816
>Don't HECKIN' insult the Greekerinos!!!
Why? You threw the first punch, faggot.

[Anonymous No.22731918]

>>22731851
Blah blah blah empty insults and barbarian spear chucking
Reminds me of that British retard who did archaeological excavation by blowing up the sites. How can someone be so stupid?
>>22731867
Most of these people are terminally online Brits or Yankees living with their families. No heritage whatsoever, they have no clue where they come from.
It’s like a chihuahua. Their shrieking glare tells you they know there’s something fucked up about where their wretched selves come from but don’t know what it is.

[Anonymous No.22731928]

>>22731801
> meds have an understandable massive inferiority
I’d say Nordic projection but odds are that you’re an amerimutt or some brown haired crooked teeth brit
gVerification not requir- ACK!

[Anonymous No.22731935]

>>22731918
>dae le spears
that's right, here's one of our spears, bit better than whatever the fuck your iron age slaver society came up with at its peak

[Anonymous No.22731934]

>>22731853
>Why would meds have an inferiority complex about? Not having as many african and muslim immigrants or not having to pay 90% of their salary to taxes and rent? you sound very envious anon
Are you a retard or do you actually think modern day Greece isn't poor as fuck?

[Anonymous No.22731942]

>>22731935
>our spears
>nazi German and Ashkenazi scientists
Good guy. Now go pay your taxes. Iron dome needs fixing

[Anonymous No.22731947]

>>22731928
what's to project? in 1000 years Germanic civilization puts anything your diseased manlet ancestors did to shame, while you live desperately through the ruins you squatted upon until those barbarians often decided to dig them up

[Anonymous No.22731955]

>>22731888
Who got the trips

[Anonymous No.22731959]

>>22731947
Ok? So why are you larping as us if you’re so accomplished lmao

[Anonymous No.22731976]

>>22731959
I'm just pointing our the raison d'etre of this thread, which is hardly an objective inquiry into ancient Hellenic physiognomy and you know it.

[Anonymous No.22732044]

>>22731976
Every genetic and archaeological analysis confirms ancient Greeks’ only descendants and closest genetic matchup are modern Greeks. Your “physiognomy inquiry” is barbarian cope stemming from lack-of-ancient-history-disorder.

[Anonymous No.22732070]

>>22732044
lol just as I predicted above, it's that one modern obsessed gayreek who thinks his halfassed understanding of genetics is anything but laughable
and he has the nerve to call anyone "terminally online"

[Anonymous No.22732075]

>>22732070
>it’s that one
I’m not even Greek. You’re mentally ill and will not breed.

[Anonymous No.22732247]

>>22731884
Literally nobody is arguing that Greeks did not have light skin, you are retarded
White skin refers to northerners now though. Or rather it belongs to them I'd say
In the past sure, that's why an ancient writer calling Greeks λευκούς especially in contrast to darker Levantine immigrants while also preserving the notion of pale = feminine/weak is not contradictory
>>22731918
Oh in that case yeah it makes sense. It's mostly Germans French and Scandis with the cool history

[Anonymous No.22732274]

>>22731934
All med countries are fine tho, even after bankruptcies
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Mean_wealth_Europe_2021_Credit_Suisse.png/800px-Mean_wealth_Europe_2021_Credit_Suisse.png
Keep in mind the much lower cost of living too

[Anonymous No.22732281]

>>22732274
No one is clambering to live in Greece over Iceland.

[Anonymous No.22732291]

>>22732070
He is correct though. In fact ancient Greek physiognomy was darker than today after the mini Ice Age in Europe

[Anonymous No.22732294]

>>22731461
muh agora to academy equivocation

[Anonymous No.22732295]

>>22732281
Yes, Iceland is much more accepting of foreign immigrants than Greece is
As is Sweden for example

[Anonymous No.22733654]

>>22731461
I don't take what homosexuals say seriously.

[Anonymous No.22733656]

>>22733654
bill: bounty

[Anonymous No.22734627]

>>22731486
>>22731493
Lmao buttblasted snowbois built for Achean BVLLS

[Anonymous No.22734674]

>>22734627
>reality: "bull" in the bottom right, snowboi in the middle, circa 400AD, colorized

[Anonymous No.22735633]

>>22731461
Pretty sure "Whiteness" as in "pale" and opposed to "tanned" .