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/lit/ - Literature

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22701791 No.22701791 [Reply] [Original]

Criticize this character /lit/.
What's wrong with him? Could John Ronald R. Tolkien have wrote him better?

>> No.22701799

>>22701791
Should have fucked Eowyn when he had the chance. Kinda comes across as a simp for Elfoids

>> No.22701804

>>22701791
He might not be a good king cuz he's too idealistic to be redpilled about what dumbass commoners actually want. Imagine his first day as king and he's like "We shall teach the people the old stories..." bruh the "people" just want to drink beer and watch cockfights

>> No.22701821

>>22701791
I can't. He is perfect. My western mind cannot envision a better man.

>> No.22701879

>>22701804
And what do the people of Arnor and Gondor NEED?

>> No.22701889

Very bland Mary Sue.
>very old yet very good-looking
>everyone loves him
>super skilled elf tactics
>long lost line of Kings
At least he isn't obnoxious about it but he's certainly not interesting.

>> No.22701900

>>22701889
That's not what a Mary Sue is.

>> No.22701906

>>22701879
This line of thinking is what's led to more death and destruction than any other line of thought in history
>The people NEED to be brought to the revolution
>The people NEED to learn the benefits of our system
>The people NEED to be kept from thinking bad thoughts

>> No.22701910

>>22701900
Even if it's not the perfect definition, you know what I mean.

>> No.22701935

>>22701910
He's a hero in a traditional story not a basement dweller in a 19th century Russian novel. Calling him a Mary Sue makes no sense.

>> No.22701959

>>22701935
IDK what you mean by that. He has no real flaws, and the rest of the characters don't give him shit except when they're about to be proven wrong. The rest praise him and love him.

>> No.22701964

>>22701959
Yeah one of Aragorn's flaws is that he's helpless against sarcasm. If you put Wormtongue and Aragorn in a room together for 48 hours, and there's nothing they can do but talk, then Wormtongue has a good chance of winning

>> No.22701970

>>22701791
He's too much of a cliché. It would give him way more depth if it was revealed he was actually extremely power hungry and the whole right to the throne shit went to his head.

>> No.22701978

>>22701959
A Mary Sue is an author'd self insert character added to an existing IP who is inexplicably smarter, more attractive, and braver than all the former main characters, who in turn endlessly praise the Mary Sue.

You people don't even know what the term means anymore lmfao

>> No.22701980

>>22701978
That's not correct.

>> No.22701987

>>22701791
He should have killed an innocent man who stood in his way

>> No.22701991

>>22701980
It's twice correct bitch

>> No.22701999

>>22701959
Every traditional hero is a Mary Sue under your definition which makes it a stupid definition.

>> No.22702012

>>22701999
Not necessarily. Traditional heroes can have flaws, and you don't need to move out of Middle Earth.
Bilbo, for example, is both a casual liar and too curious/greedy for his own good. But he's still a hero.
And if Bilbo is not a traditional hero, then maybe if you narrow the definition too much all 'traditional heroes' might be Mary Sues.
But I don't think they have to be. Heracles had plenty of flaws as well.

>> No.22702020

>>22701999
All the great traditional heroes had very timeless human flaws. Most were violent alcoholic coomers whose narcissism led to their downfall.

>> No.22702022

>>22702012
The Baggins are fairy tale heroes, not the same kind of tradition as Aragorn.
See:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragorn#Romantic_hero
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroism_in_The_Lord_of_the_Rings#Contrasted_heroes
>>22702020
Not true because those cultures viewed those qualities as positive not negative, so they weren't flawed.

>> No.22702028

>>22701987
What for, and when?

>> No.22702030

>>22701991
I checked. You are right right. It is an (usually female) idealised author self-insert. Masturbation in front of a mirror.

>> No.22702246

>>22701791
He doesn't do an amazing job convincing the hobbits he's on their side in Bree (until Frodo reads the letter from Gandalf)

>> No.22702252

>>22701906
Do you live in a hippie fantasyland where people need nothing but to fulfill their wants?

>> No.22702274

>>22701970
I get your point, but I think this is just such a modern critique. Like some anon said earlier in the thread, he’s a traditional hero, and like traditional heroes, he’s basically just a paragon of virtue. He’s not meant to be a complex psychological portrait of a flawed man; he’s the Good King.

>> No.22702289

>>22702274
And what are the other examples of such 'Good Kings'? Hammurabi? Who else, maybe someone in fiction?
What I think is that this 'traditional hero' garbage is some made up thing. Even Arthur or Lancelot were not this fucking bland.

>> No.22702291

He has no arc, he already wants the throne basically, and it stays stagnant the whole story. I can understand why, as it's more of an homage to the medieval knights of old, but he is seriously a boring character. Not mentioning how annoying he can be sometimes; he fucking whines in the book a lot.

>> No.22702300

Does a character need to have flaws to be interesting?

>> No.22702301

>>22702289
Actually, Arthur is, as I recall. Maybe I’m forgetting something, but I can’t think of any flaws he has. Lancelot is of course a different story, as is Gawain, but they are more akin to Frodo and Sam, who do have faults. Arthur basically stands in the background and the model Christian king., and his knights are more complex characters.

>> No.22702314

>>22702301
Depends on the story, but Arthur almost always has a serious lack of foresight.

>> No.22702452

>>22701906
Yeah, cuz what people want is inherently good and innocent.
People are vile by nature and need paternalism to keep them in line.

>> No.22702454

>>22701910
Silly me. Mary Sue is "female character I dislike for doing things male characters do all the time"

>> No.22702478

>>22701791
He didn’t spell out his tax policy

>> No.22702855

>>22701959
Honestly Gandalf is way more of a mary sue than Aragorn when you think about it

>> No.22702860

>>22702454
Women can be competent, but the most competent character in a series should never be a woman. There needs to be a man who mogs her so that she can have a happy romance ending too. I learned this from reading female authors

>> No.22702953

>>22702022
>wikipedia

>> No.22702977

>>22702953
Great observation, Sherlock.

>> No.22703014

>>22701791
>that one part where he threatens to kill the innocent guard at Rohan if he touches his magic king sword

I get it but its still funny to me. So Christ like Tolkien lol

>> No.22703122

>>22702855
Gandalf is a personification of divine will, he's not so much a character.

>> No.22703133

>>22703122
He's still very much a character, he's just not a person

>> No.22703144

>>22703133
He's a person but not human.

>> No.22703150

>>22703144
I think we have some very different definitions of what person and character mean

>> No.22703162

>>22703150
How is he not a person?

>> No.22703174

>>22703162
Learn to agree to disagree man. There's no greater waste of time than a back and forth where the main issue in dispute is semantics

>> No.22703177

>>22703174
Are you busy? Just say how he's not a person.

>> No.22703181

>>22703177
Yeah, I got shit to do. Explain how he's not a character and feel free to pretend that I conceded defeat

>> No.22703186

>>22703181
I didn't say he's not a character. He's both a character and a person. It's not hard to be either. A rock could be a character (but not a person unless it has consciousness).

>> No.22703187
File: 968 KB, 220x208, IMG_1479.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
22703187

>>22703122

>> No.22703193

>>22703181
Also I'm a different anon. Gabdald is a good character imo

>> No.22703194

>>22703193
I'm not familiar with this Gabdald fellow but I'll take your word for it

>> No.22703198

>>22701791
>shirks his duty to be a forest ranger

>> No.22703215

>>22701791
He really could use having a flaw or two, as he was kinda flat and boring for me in the books. It doesn't need to be anything big, just something to make him more of a person and less Majesty That Walks On Two Legs.

>>22702274
>he’s a traditional hero, and like traditional heroes, he’s basically just a paragon of virtue
Yeah, everyone knows those flawless traditional paragons of virtue like
>Achilles
>Odysseus
>Aeneas
>Orestes
>Oedipus
>Hercules
>Beowulf
>Arthur
>Lancelot
>Gawain
>Sigurd
>Gunnarr
>Robin Hood
You know, those perfect virtuous heroes, from those blessed times when people realized that complexity and humanity only ruins characters.

>> No.22703219

>>22702022
>Not true because those cultures viewed those qualities as positive not negative, so they weren't flawed.
I think you might be clinically retarded.

>> No.22703221

>>22703219
Why are you projecting?

>> No.22703231

>>22701791
I feel like the story focuses a lot on him. It should've been the hobbits adventures, but instead half of book 2 and almost all book 3 is about him.

>> No.22703241

>>22703221
Take Iliad

First line of the Iliad:
>Sing, O goddess, the rage of Achilles son of Peleus, that brought countless ills upon the Achaeans.
Middle of Iliad:
>Achilles himself is deeply ashamed of his spiteful that lead to the death of his dearest friend, rips out his own hair and covers his head with ashes
End of Iliad:
>Achilles has processed his flaws and learned from it, and directly makes amends with the victim of his wrongdoing while going against the wishes and needs of his compatriots and superiors, while still accepting that he has doomed himself with his folly.

Anon:
>"Durr those were all positives he dindu nuffin rong"

Do I need to get into figures like Odysseus or Beowulf?

>> No.22703251

>>22703241
I was referring to the northern heroic tradition that Tolkien was influenced by, like in The Battle of Maldon.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Homecoming_of_Beorhtnoth_Beorhthelm%27s_Son#Critical_discussion

>> No.22703256

>>22703215
He does have flaws. You can just Google "Aragorn flaws" and see people point them out. Is that too hard for you?

>> No.22703263

>>22703251
>Freyr
>Beowulf
>Ægil
You know the drill.

>> No.22703292

>>22703263
You're right. My statement was literally wrong, but it was stated after I said his definition of Mary Sue was bad. I don't actually think all heroes are flawless. I should've said Aragorn actually has flaws because I think he does, as do most heroes in tradition, albeit in different ways because Tolkien was criticizing the Northern pride, greed and gluttony. I said that out of frustration trying to defend against the Mary Sue claim.

>> No.22703301

>>22703292
I understand, the Mary Sue whining has gotten out of hand.

>> No.22703872

>>22702291
>he fucking whines in the book a lot
This.

>> No.22703937

>>22701791
> Could have wrote

You're disqualified from all literary discussion for a lifetime.

>> No.22705108

>>22703937
Please, I beg you, lower the sentence.

>> No.22705556

>>22701799
>some random stinky horse lady
or
>literal elfin queen
Yeah ok retard

>> No.22705681

>>22705556
>or
He's a cuck

>> No.22705767

>>22701791
Supposed to be a "kind hearted valorous knight" AKA beta pussy faggot and also great warrior and king. These two are like saying smart woman (contradictory, does not exist)