/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22699806]

Admit it he was more profound than muh Nietzsche

[Anonymous No.22699811]

>>22699806
He was, but also too patrician. Don't expect /lit/ posters to appreciate him.

[Anonymous No.22699817]

>>22699806
What does he say that isn’t just Copenhauer, chrisrcuckery, and popular German nationalism? Every quote you post from him is utterly insipid.

[Anonymous No.22699841]

>>22699817
Still more profound than nietzsche. Muh existentialism, muh ubermensch. Nigga go read another philosopher for once. Nietzsche is pseud trash.

[Anonymous No.22699851]

>>22699841
He wrote like 10 books and you're attempting to whittle his thought down to two concepts you don't even understand. Try again.

[Anonymous No.22699860]

>>22699851
Stop being so defensive of your daddy figure, it makes you seem weak and insecure.

[Anonymous No.22699863]

>>22699851
>meanwhile whittles Wagner down to "Copenhauer, chrisrcuckery, and popular German nationalism"
The idiocy of Nietzscheans knows no bounds.

[Anonymous No.22699887]

>>22699806
It's not a competition.

[Anonymous No.22700368]

>>22699887
OP posts bait
Nitzschean superchuds get agravated and have to come and defend papa edgelord.
meanwhile your worldview is that everything is competition and there are the wimps who cooperate and the total kool guys who win at life. are you having some slave morality over this thread?

[Anonymous No.22700417]

>>22699806
Of course he was, it's undeniable. Even without his actual written works, his operas blow Nietzsche out of the water.

[Anonymous No.22700421]

>>22699806
Literal neckbeard

[Anonymous No.22700429]

>>22699806
He was an artistic genius who intuited certain truths about the world and the nature of art and Eros through his operas, but it took acquaintance with Schopenhauer's works for him to fully crystallize these intuitions into a coherent worldview. And we should not forget that he spent countless hours talking to Nietzsche while the latter was still a Schopenhauer disciple, he got the equivalent of hundreds of hours of private tutoring from the most luminary philologist at that time, who was an expert on Greek culture and Schopenhauerian philosophy. Their friendship was mutually beneficial (until it wasn't) and both men influenced each other.
Wagner's completely unique invention, the Gesamtkunstwerk, was a project that he abandoned under the influence of Schopenhauer halfway through the Ring cycle, when he decided that yes music is the supreme art after all instead of being the primus inter pares as it should be in the perfect Gesamtkunstwerk.
Anything truly profound Wagner wrote down (I'm talking about his essays from the Parsifal era, where he discusses how art should relate itself to religion) is simply a continuation of Schopenhauer.

[Anonymous No.22700446]

>>22699806
Hot take: Nietzsche was a deranged schizo and his writings are only worthwhile thanks to his sister.

[Anonymous No.22700457]

>>22700446
yeah well, Newton and Tesla were deranged schizos too

[Anonymous No.22700485]

>>22700446
mentally stable people make for mediocre writers

[Anonymous No.22700491]

>>22699806
Absolutely, for 95% of his career. The last few years and Parsifal however, Nietzsche was absolutely right about. Should have found a less spergy way to respond to, but was still right about.

[Anonymous No.22700526]

>>22700485
>mentally stable people make for mediocre writers
same seems to apply to all of the arts.

[Anonymous No.22700536]

>>22700457
>Tesla were deranged schizos too
tesla probably had undiagnosed autism but it's hard to say exactly as tesla was prone to exaggeration of his own life.

[Anonymous No.22700564]

>>22699860
Fr. When did this board become filled with these guys who are gay for Nietzsche?

[Anonymous No.22700617]

>>22700429
>And we should not forget that he spent countless hours talking to Nietzsche while the latter was still a Schopenhauer disciple, he got the equivalent of hundreds of hours of private tutoring
It was the other way around. In all their correspondences Nietzsche only ever writes of learning new things and Wagner never describes learning something from Nietzsche. At least not until The Birth of Tragedy. Wagner had written countless works of philosophy, had a systematic grasp of Schopenhauer (compared with Nietzsche's more existentialist interest) and in his Beethoven essay fully expounds his new Schopenhauerian philosophy.

>the Gesamtkunstwerk, was a project that he abandoned under the influence of Schopenhauer halfway through the Ring cycle, when he decided that yes music is the supreme art after all
This isn't entirely true. Music and drama became for him equals, mutually expressing the other, rather than music only being a composite within the drama. The aim becomes that of bringing out the music of an object in our existence, and thereby its underlying essence. And being the fertile element to the creation of all (or at least most) art, some painters can be described as musicians. And he often described Beethoven as a dramatist. These are all decidedly 'gesamt' in their view of aesthetic experience and is only a maturation under Schopenhauer of the Gesamtkunstwerk idea. You are severely underrating Wagner's philosophical insight, even from before reading Schopenhauer. In 1873 he said Art and Revolution, The Artwork of the Future and Opera and Drama were his most important writings, because they contain the kernel of all his thought.

[Anonymous No.22700649]

>>22700617
>It was the other way around.
Because Nietzsche was starstruck and considered Wagner his Ersatz-father and Wagner was too much of an egomaniac to ever admit to learning something from a guy in his 20s. Do you really think in hundreds of hours of conversation, Wagner never learned anything from Nietzsche?

>This isn't entirely true.
It doesn't matter what Wagner himself thought or said in theory. His Gesamtkunstwerk ideal was most perfectly realized in Das Rheingold, considered by many to be the weakest part of the Ring (perhaps after Siegfried). Die Walküre already departs from the Gesamtkunstwerk idea: lots of free reign for music untethered by dialogue. Götterdämmerung is basically just grand opera again. It's when Wagner allows music to be sovereign again that he makes his best work, and that's when he abandons the ideal of the Gesamtkunstwerk, and he did so because he became convinced, following Schopenhauer, that music stands "quite alone above other arts" as Schop put it.
Simply compare Das Rheingold to Parsifal. They are completely different works. Parsifal is not a continuation of what was accomplished in Rheingold, it was refutation.

[Anonymous No.22700817]

>>22700649
>Do you really think in hundreds of hours of conversation, Wagner never learned anything from Nietzsche?
Not anything pertaining to systematic philosophy. I think more than an influence Nietzsche was an intellectual stimulus. You have to remember Nietzsche was only at the very beginning of his philosophical development, the Birth of Tragedy was a work that belongs to Wagner's cultural project, most of the ideas in it (however tenuous it is to speak of the abstract ideas of an existentialist text) are only re-framings of Wagner's ideas in writings like Beethoven. And Wagner praised Nietzsche exorbitantly, his ego never stopped him from giving someone their dues.

>His Gesamtkunstwerk ideal was most perfectly realized in Das Rheingold
According to you. Yes, it is closest to the practical description of the Gesamtkunstwerk given by him in Opera and Drama, but in many ways it already departs from that, showing that Wagner never attached his Gesamtkunstwerk ideal very closely to that outline, and in the most important things it resembles all of his later works. They are all essentially and structurally the same type of artwork: Gesamtkunstwerk, music drama, stage-festival-play, call it what you will. The essence of the Gesamtkunstwerk is laid out in Opera and Drama and maintained from then on. For example, the idea of dramatic motifs being the building blocks for everything in the music is first presented in Opera and Drama and seen still in Parsifal. Compare Gotterdammerung, whose resemblance to grand opera is superficial, to Rheingold and Les Huguenots and see which it resembles more. It is also quite arrogant to think Wagner's opinion on the construction of his own works does not matter.

[Anonymous No.22701211]

>>22699806
Why did he signed off all his last letters as Dionysus? Was it syphilis or just bitterness developed through years of rejection and obscurity?

[Anonymous No.22701227]

>>22701211
He was about to troon out just like in the Dionysos myth.

[Anonymous No.22701321]

>>22699806
based Nietzsche destroying christcucks and making grifters listen to classical music

[Anonymous No.22701325]

>>22699806
I can hold two thoughts in my head at the same time. I like both Wagner and Nietzsche.

[Anonymous No.22701432]

Every man with a healthy will and instinct leading to power likes Wagner, thinks about Rome, codes microcontrollers and is platonically gay for Nietzsche. All you discord trannies can't change that fact.

[Anonymous No.22701439]

>>22701432
This post will get so many updoots on reddit and ifunny. I tip my Trachtenhut to you, gentleherr.

[Anonymous No.22701456]

>>22701439
Reddit also likes drinking water to survive. The structure of your thought process is flawed gentlesir. You should listen to some Feynman lectures and watch Cosmos with Carl Sagan.

[Anonymous No.22701477]

I enjoy both.

[Anonymous No.22701534]

>>22701477
Stop enjoying things

[Anonymous No.22701818]

>>22700457
Newton and Tesla made many scientific contributions that shaped the modern world. Nietzsche wrote books about his opinions.

[Anonymous No.22701827]

test