/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22693844]

Tolkien sisters this is perhaps my most laborious read in recent memory. I thought criticism of Tolkien’s prose was overstated but this is quite dire stuff. Does he change the style in Lord of the Rings? I understand this is aimed at children while Lord of the Rings is, er, not somehow?

>And of course they did none of these dreadful things, and everything was cleaned and put away safe as quick as lightning, while the hobbit was turning round and round in the middle of the kitchen trying to see what they were doing.

[Anonymous No.22693853]

>>22693844
The style is the same in LotR, but it is much better because Tolkien leans into his autism instead of trying to appeal to young kids.
However, if you can't appreciate the light of tism peaking through the cracks of the Hobbit, you're going to hate being blinded by the spotlight that is LotR.

[Anonymous No.22693854]

OP is a troon, post kino
>Now news came to Hithlum that Dorthonion was lost and the sons of Finarfin overthrown, and that the sons of Fëanor were driven from their lands. Then Fingolfin beheld... the utter ruin of the Noldor, and the defeat beyond redress of all their houses; and filled with wrath and despair he mounted upon Rochallor his great horse and rode forth alone, and none might restrain him. He passed over Dor-nu-Fauglith like a wind amid the dust, and all that beheld his onset fled in amaze, thinking that Oromë himself was come: for a great madness of rage was upon him, so that his eyes shone like the eyes of the Valar. Thus he came alone to Angband's gates, and he sounded his horn, and smote once more upon the brazen doors, and challenged Morgoth to come forth to single combat. And Morgoth came.

>That was the last time in those wars that he passed the doors of his stronghold, and it is said that he took not the challenge willingly; for... alone of the Valar he knew fear. But he could not now deny the challenge before the face of his captains; for... Fingolfin named Morgoth craven.... Therefore Morgoth... issued forth clad in black armour; and he stood before the King like a tower, iron-crowned, and his vast shield, sable unblazoned, cast a shadow over him like a stormcloud. But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice.

[Anonymous No.22693868]

>>22693854
Is this Lord of the Rings? This little excerpt is genuinely awful. I’m being completely serious. I wonder what the rest reads like if this is his most kino writing…

[Anonymous No.22693872]

>>22693854
Gotta have muh Rohirrim
>But at that same moment there was a flash, as if lightning had sprung from the earth beneath the City. For a searing second it stood dazzling far off in black and white, its topmost tower like a glittering needle: and then as the darkness closed again there came rolling over the fields a great boom.

>At that sound the bent shape of the king sprang suddenly erect. Tall and proud he seemed again; and rising in his stirrups he cried in a loud voice, more clear than any there had ever heard a mortal man achieve before: Arise, arise, Riders of Théoden! Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter! spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises! Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor! With that he seized a great horn from Guthláf his banner-bearer, and he blew such a blast upon it that it burst asunder. And straightway all the horns in the host were lifted up in music, and the blowing of the horns of Rohan in that hour was like a storm upon the plain and a thunder in the mountains. Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor! Suddenly the king cried to Snowmane and the horse sprang away. Behind him his banner blew in the wind, white horse upon a field of green, but he outpaced it. After him thundered the knights of his house, but he was ever before them. Éomer rode there, the white horsetail on his helm floating in his speed, and the front of the first éored roared like a breaker foaming to the shore, but Théoden could not be overtaken. Fey he seemed, or the battle-fury of his fathers ran like new fire in his veins, and he was borne up on Snowmane like a god of old, even as Oromë the Great in the battle of the Valar when the world was young. His golden shield was uncovered, and lo! it shone like an image of the Sun, and the grass flamed into green about the white feet of his steed. For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; and the darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed, and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them. And then all the host of Rohan burst into song, and they sang as they slew, for the joy of battle was on them, and the sound of their singing that was fair and terrible came even to the City.

[Anonymous No.22693874]

>>22693868
thanks for your in-depth review you anhedonic fuck
>In that hour Lúthien came, and standing upon the bridge that led to Sauron's isle she sang a song that no walls of stone could hinder. ...Then Sauron yielded himself, and Lúthien took the mastery of the isle and all that was there... Lúthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare.

[Anonymous No.22693876]

>>22693868
It's a book for d&d playing dweebs who get stuffed in high school lockers literally what did you expect

[Anonymous No.22693878]

"Farewell sweet earth and northern sky
for ever blest, since here did lie,
and here with lissom limbs did run
beneath the moon, beneath the sun,
Lúthien Tinúviel
more fair than mortal tongue can tell.
Though all to ruin fell the world
and were dissolved and backward hurled
unmade into the old abyss,
yet were its making good, for this -
the dawn, the dusk, the earth, the sea -
that Lúthien on a time should be!"

[Anonymous No.22693881]

Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,
neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,
dread nor danger, not Doom itself,
shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor's kin,
whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
finding keepeth or afar casteth
a Silmaril. This swear we all:
death we will deal him ere Day's ending,
woe unto world's end! Our word hear thou,
Eru Allfather! To the everlasting
Darkness doom us if our deed faileth.
On the holy mountain hear in witness
and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!

[Anonymous No.22693882]

>>22693876
>literally what did you expect
A classic of English literature?

[Anonymous No.22693885]

>>22693882
>tolkien
>classic
lmao

[Anonymous No.22693892]

Eärendil was a mariner
that tarried in Arvernien;
he built a boat of timber felled
in Nimbrethil to journey in;
her sails he wove of silver fair,
of silver were her lanterns made,
her prow was fashioned like a swan,
and light upon her banners laid.

In panoply of ancient kings,
in chainéd rings he armoured him;
his shining shield was scored with runes
to ward all wounds and harm from him;
his bow was made of dragon-horn,
his arrows shorn of ebony;
of silver was his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony;
his sword of steel was valiant,
of adamant his helmet tall,
an eagle-plume upon his crest,
upon his breast an emerald.

Beneath the Moon and under star
he wandered far from northern strands,
bewildered on enchanted ways
beyond the days of mortal lands.
From gnashing of the Narrow Ice
where shadow lies on frozen hills,
from nether heats and burning waste
he turned in haste, and roving still
on starless waters far astray
at last he came to Night of Naught,
and passed, and never sight he saw
of shining shore nor light he sought.
The winds of wrath came driving him,
and blindly in the foam he fled
from west to east and errandless,
unheralded he homeward sped.

There flying Elwing came to him,
and flame was in the darkness lit;
more bright than light of diamond
the fire upon her carcanet.
The Silmaril she bound on him
and crowned him with the living light
and dauntless then with burning brow
he turned his prow; and in the night
from Otherworld beyond the Sea
there strong and free a storm arose,
a wind of power in Tarmenel;
by paths that seldom mortal goes
his boat it bore with biting breath
as might of death across the grey
and long forsaken seas distressed;
from east to west he passed away.

Through Evernight he back was borne
on black and roaring waves that ran
o'er leagues unlit and foundered shores
that drowned before the Days began,
until he heard on strands of pearl
where ends the world the music long,
where ever-foaming billows roll
the yellow gold and jewels wan.
He saw the Mountain silent rise
where twilight lies upon the knees
of Valinor, and Eldamar
beheld afar beyond the seas.
A wanderer escaped from night
to haven white he came at last,
to Elvenhome the green and fair
where keen the air, where pale as glass
beneath the Hill of Ilmarin
a-glimmer in a valley sheer
the lamplit towers of Tirion
are mirrored on the Shadowmere.

(cont.)

[Anonymous No.22693896]

He tarried there from errantry,
and melodies they taught to him,
and sages old him marvels told,
and harps of gold they brought to him.
They clothed him then in elven-white,
and seven lights before him sent,
as through the Calacirian
to hidden land forlorn he went.
He came unto the timeless halls
where shining fall the countless years,
and endless reigns the Elder King
in Ilmarin on Mountain sheer;
and words unheard were spoken then
of folk of Men and Elven-kin,
beyond the world were visions showed
forbid to those that dwell therein.

A ship then new they built for him
of mithril and of elven-glass
with shining prow; no shaven oar
nor sail she bore on silver mast:
the Silmaril as lantern light
and banner bright with living flame
to gleam thereon by Elbereth
herself was set, who thither came
and wings immortal made for him,
and laid on him undying doom,
to sail the shoreless skies and come
behind the Sun and light of Moon.

From Evereven's lofty hills
where softly silver fountains fall
his wings him bore, a wandering light,
beyond the mighty Mountain Wall.
From World's End there he turned away,
and yearned again to find afar
his home through shadows journeying,
and burning as an island star
on high above the mists he came,
a distant flame before the Sun,
a wonder ere the waking dawn
where grey the Norland waters run.

And over Middle-earth he passed
and heard at last the weeping sore
of women and of elven-maids
in Elder Days, in years of yore.
But on him mighty doom was laid,
till Moon should fade, an orbéd star
to pass, and tarry never more
on Hither Shores where Mortals are;
for ever still a herald on
an errand that should never rest
to bear his shining lamp afar,
the Flammifer of Westernesse.

[Anonymous No.22693902]

When Gollum first appears in the caves it's peak literary fiction. It's a good novel with very fitting prose, you're just a troon most likely.

[Anonymous No.22693905]

>>22693844
It's simple prose because the hobbits are simple. He actually changes it based on what's happening in the story.
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tolkien%27s_prose_style

[Anonymous No.22693920]

>>22693892
>>22693896
Bilbo's version (more whimsical), Errantry:

There was a merry passenger,
a messenger a mariner:
he built a gilded gondola
to wander in and had in her
a load of yellow oranges
and porridge for his provender;
he perfumed her with marjoram,
and cardamom and lavender.

He called the winds of Argosies,
with cargoes in to carry him,
across the rivers seventeen,
that lay between to tarry him.
He landed all in loneliness,
where stonily the pebbles on
the running river Derrilyn,
goes merrily for ever on.
He journeyed then through meadow-lands,
to shadow-land that dreary lay,
and under hill and over hill,
went roving still a weary way.

He sat and sang a melody,
his errantry a tarrying,
he begged a pretty butterfly,
that fluttered by to marry him.
She scorned him and she scoffed at him,
she laughed at him unpitying,
so long he studied wizardry,
and sigaldry and smithying.

He wove a tissue airy thin,
to snare her in; to follow her,
he made him beetle-leatherwing,
and feather wing of swallow hair.

He caught her in bewilderment,
with filament of spider-thread.
He made her soft pavilions,
of lilies and a bridal bed,
of flowers and of thistle-down,
to nestle down and rest her in,
and silken webs of filmy white,
and silver light he dressed her in.

He threaded gems and necklaces,
but recklessly she squandered them,
and fell to bitter quarrelling,
then sorrowing he wandered on,
and there he left her withering
as shivering he fled away;
with windy weather following,
on swallow-wing he sped away.

He passed the achipelagoes,
where yellow grows the marigold,
with countless silver fountains are,
and mountains are of fairy-gold.
He took to war and foraying,
a-harrying beyond the sea,
and roaming over Belmary,
and Thellamie and Fantasie.

He made a shield and morion,
of coral and of ivory.
A sword he made of emerald,
and terrible his rivalry,
with elven knights of Aerie
and Faerie, with paladins
that golden-haired, and shining-eyed
came riding by, and challenged him.

Of crystal was his habergeon,
his scabbard of chalcedony,
with silver tipped and plenilune,
his spear was hewn of ebony.
His javelins were of malachite
and stalactite - he brandished them,
and went and fought the dragon flies,
of Paradise, and vanquished them.

He battled with the Dumbledors,
the Hummerhorns, and Honeybees,
and won the Golden Honeycomb,
and running home on sunny seas,
in ship of leaves and gossamer,
with blossom for a canopy,
he sat and sang, and furbished up,
and burnished up his panoply.

(cont.)

[Anonymous No.22693924]

>>22693920

He tarried for a little while,
in little isles that lonely lay,
and found their naught but blowing grass.
And so at last, the only way he took, and turned,
and coming home with honeycomb,
to memory his message came,
and errand too!
In derring-do and glamoury,
he had forgot them,
journeying and tourneying, a wanderer.

So now he must depart again,
and start again his gondola,
for ever still a messenger a passenger, a tarrier,
a roving as a feather does,
a weather-driven mariner.

[Anonymous No.22693933]

I literally could not finish the last half of Return of the King. It was just so fucking horrible. I tried really hard to do it, but no.

On the other hand, the final sprint of War and Peace was absolutely gripping, and I'll never forget it.

So the contrast there is vividly dark. LOTR is just not that great of a book. The author did a JK-Rowlingism where he invented a cool world and idea, but upon actually building that world, made enough mistakes in terms of themes, plots, characters, and writing style, that it's nearly unreadable unless a person has a "motive" to read it.

For example, the most common motive is that it's popular within our culture, and so for that reason, people want to read it. But if we were culturally-blind, and went into a library to flip through a few big, long, epic books, this one would immediately be put back on the shelf in favor of nearly anything else. Tolkien got lucky.

[Anonymous No.22693937]

Gil-galad was an elven-king.
Of him the harpers sadly sing;
the last whose realm was fair and free
between the Mountains and the Sea.

His sword was long, his lance was keen.
His shining helm afar was seen;
the countless stars of heaven's field
were mirrored in his silver shield.

But long ago he rode away,
and where he dwelleth none can say;
for into darkness fell his star
in Mordor where the shadows are.

[Anonymous No.22693944]

>>22693882
Don't listen to this highbrow pseud >>22693885
, Tolkien's legendarium is an absolute classic on par with at least Tolstoy or Dickens

[Anonymous No.22693952]

>>22693844
That’s better than LOTR, actually
lol

CAPTCHA:4MGAY

[Anonymous No.22693953]

Where now the horse and the rider? Where is the horn that was blowing?
Where is the helm and the hauberk, and the bright hair flowing?
Where is the hand on the harpstring, and the red fire glowing?
Where is the spring and the harvest and the tall corn growing?
They have passed like rain on the mountain, like a wind in the meadow;
The days have gone down in the West behind the hills into shadow.
Who shall gather the smoke of the dead wood burning,
Or behold the flowing years from the Sea returning?

[Anonymous No.22693956]

There hammer on the anvil smote,
There chisel clove, and graver wrote;
There forged was blade, and bound was hilt;
The delver mined, the mason built.
There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
And metal wrought like fishes' mail,
Buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
And shining spears were laid in hoard.

Unwearied then were Durin's folk;
Beneath the mountains music woke:
The harpers harped, the minstrels sang,
And at the gates the trumpets rang.

The world is grey, the mountains old,
The forge's fire is ashen-cold;
No harp is wrung, no hammer falls:
The darkness dwells in Durin's halls;
The shadow lies upon his tomb
In Moria, in Khazad-dûm.

[Anonymous No.22693957]

>>22693933
This has to be most tryhard pseud post I've read here in a while.

[Anonymous No.22693961]

The world was young, the mountains green,
No stain yet on the Moon was seen,
No words were laid on stream or stone
When Durin woke and walked alone.
He named the nameless hills and dells;
He drank from yet untasted wells;
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
And saw a crown of stars appear,
As gems upon a silver thread,
Above the shadow of his head.

The world was fair, the mountains tall,
In Elder Days before the fall
Of mighty kings in Nargothrond
And Gondolin, who now beyond
The Western Seas have passed away:
The world was fair in Durin's Day.

A king he was on carven throne
In many-pillared halls of stone
With golden roof and silver floor,
And runes of power upon the door.
The light of sun and star and moon
In shining lamps of crystal hewn
Undimmed by cloud or shade of night
There shone for ever fair and bright.

There hammer on the anvil smote,
There chisel clove, and graver wrote;
There forged was blade, and bound was hilt;
The delver mined, the mason built.
There beryl, pearl, and opal pale,
And metal wrought like fishes' mail,
Buckler and corslet, axe and sword,
And shining spears were laid in hoard.

Unwearied then were Durin's folk;
Beneath the mountains music woke:
The harpers harped, the minstrels sang,
And at the gates the trumpets rang.

The world is grey, the mountains old,
The forge's fire is ashen-cold;
No harp is wrung, no hammer falls:
The darkness dwells in Durin's halls;
The shadow lies upon his tomb
In Moria, in Khazad-dûm.
But still the sunken stars appear
In dark and windless Mirrormere;
There lies his crown in water deep,
Till Durin wakes again from sleep.

[Anonymous No.22693973]

Reading some of the posts here, I've never read him (and probably never will read genre fiction), but it all just seems really, really dry. Not terrible, not good, just the equivalent of eating dry and chewy unseasoned chicken.
Couldn't imagine reading that for thousands of pages. Ancient Greek Mythology seems more interesting to me.

[Anonymous No.22693976]

>>22693944
On par with Dickens and Tolstoy? Seriously? Tolkien has two actual books which aren’t Frankenstein creations of his son.

[Anonymous No.22693977]

>>22693933
Treating the lord of the rings like it is supposed to be a standalone work of fiction is missing the point entirely. The significance of the work is not that it is an incredible story - it's alright - but that it is the historiographic product of a received oral tradition that does not in fact exist.

[Anonymous No.22693978]

>>22693957

Yeah, but you can't deny that it's true.

[Anonymous No.22693992]

>“‘But you are a dwarf, and dwarves are strange folk. I do not like this place, and I shall like it no more by the light of day. But you comfort me, Gimli, and I am glad to have you standing nigh with your stout legs and your hard axe. I wish there were more of your kin among us. But even more would I give for a hundred good archers of Mirkwood. We shall need them. The Rohirrim have good bowmen after their fashion, but there are too few here, too few.’ 'It is dark for archery,’ said Gimli. 'Indeed it is time for sleep. Sleep! I feel the need of it, as never I thought any dwarf could. Riding is tiring work. Yet my axe is restless in my hand. Give me a row of orc-necks and room to swing and all weariness will fall from me!’ A slow time passed. Far down in the valley scattered fires still burned. The hosts of Isengard were advancing in silence now. Their torches could be seen winding up the coomb in many lines.”

— Gimli and Legolas speaking before the Battle of Helm’s Deep. Two Towers, Helm’s Deep

[Anonymous No.22693999]

>>22693977

Claiming that it's missing the point is just confirming what I said before: You have a cultural motive that biases you in favor of Tolkien.

Remove the bias and the rest of your post falls apart.

In other words, imagine this book:
It is the historiographic product of a received oral tradition that does not in fact exist.
It contains vast lore expanded by other books.
It has compelling, realistic characters.
It preaches great virtues and the meaning of courage through tribulations.
The plot is incredible, and all the twists are actually shocking, yet still realistic and don't feel contrived.
The world that is built functions realistically, where the past and future of the world converge perfectly onto each word as you read each word.
And it is a wonderful standalone work of fiction.

This would be superior to Tolkien's work, and if you've ever been to a library, you know very well that there are thousands of books there, and if you've ever taken note at the number of published books, you'd know that there are millions of books.

There's just no reason to over-value Lord of the Rings.
And if ever there was a reason to cherish it for cultural reasons, let me just say one thing:

The Rings of Power TV Show!

[Anonymous No.22694002]

>>22693933
>made enough mistakes in terms of themes, plots, characters, and writing style
could you elaborate on this point a bit?

[Anonymous No.22694006]

>>22693999
Checked but I can turn the bias argument back around and point it at your own bias.

Tolstoy was a hack.

[Anonymous No.22694007]

>The watchfires burned low, and the guards were few; on the plain few were waking in the camps of the horsemen of Hithlum. Then suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the plain; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. Thus Ard-galen perished, and fire devoured its grasses; and it became a burned and desolate waste, full of a choking dust, barren and lifeless. Thereafter its name was changed, and it was called Anfauglith, the Gasping Dust. Many charred bones had there their roofless grave; for many of the Noldor perished in that burning, who were caught by the running flame and could not fly to the hills. The heights of Dorthonion and Ered Wethrin held back the fiery torrents, but their woods upon the slopes that looked towards Angband were all kindled, and the smoke wrought confusion among the defenders. Thus began the fourth of the great battles, Dagor Bragollach, the Battle of Sudden Flame.

[Anonymous No.22694014]

Tears unnumbered ye shall shed; and the Valar will fence Valinor against you, and shut you out, so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. On the House of Fëanor the wrath of the Valar lieth from the West unto the uttermost East, and upon all that will follow them it shall be laid also. Their Oath shall drive them, and yet betray them, and ever snatch away the very treasures that they have sworn to pursue. To evil end shall all things turn that they begin well; and by treason of kin unto kin, and the fear of treason, shall this come to pass. The Dispossessed shall they be for ever.
Ye have spilled the blood of your kindred unrighteously and have stained the land of Aman. For blood ye shall render blood, and beyond Aman ye shall dwell in Death's shadow. For though Eru appointed to you to die not in Eä, and no sickness may assail you, yet slain ye may be, and slain ye shall be: by weapon and by torment and by grief; and your houseless spirits shall come then to Mandos. There long shall ye abide and yearn for your bodies, and find little pity though all whom ye have slain should entreat for you. And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken.

[Anonymous No.22694032]

>>22693973
Just read it, it's better than anything you can find written today. I read The Silmarillion twice by the time I was 19

[Anonymous No.22694046]

>>22694006
I'm not really a Tolstoy fanatic.
In any case, your lack of any real refutation rests my case.

>>22694002
Essentially, Tolkien was trying to create an epic journey, but the lack of realistic villains dismantled the experience. Gollum was just too predictable at a certain point, and once the fellowship broke up, we were left with Frodo and Sam monotonously trekking through barren wasteland where only orcs and baddies existed, and all orcs are automatically "evil," which means communication or building friendships/alliances with them is impossible. So the resolution ends up being just page after page of sneaking through no-man's land, which indeed is in itself an experience that Tolkien knew, but it went on too long, and I became bored.

He doesn't have enough mastery of prose to be able to adequately describe the journey itself. He has the idea of a long, arduous adventure stated, of course the fellowship must deliver the ring, but plot holes and eagles aside, it is basically a straight-forward path to Mordor, and so the only thing that would "surprise" a read is any time the straight-forward path is twisted by an event.

Without these side-events happening, the story itself is already stated in the beginning, which yields an incredible "boring" feeling for each chapter where nothing but raw progress towards Mordor happens, because without twists, we already know what's going on, and the prose itself just doesn't entertain. If the plot, characters, and dialogue isn't doing the job, then the storyline itself has to carry everything, and the storyline doesn't really intrigue very much, due to the linear nature of what it is they've set off to do. Not that it's the worst book ever. But it's simply overstated.

To that end, the plot ends up being carried by the Lore, which once upon a time, was perhaps kinda cool, but we live in an age where there is a glut of world-building lore and literature, so for Tolkien to still reign supreme ends up sounding hallow and false. As if to confirm what I said: In light of the millions of other books that exist, THLOTR just doesn't really impress. I have read many books in my life, and my attempt to read The Silmarillion failed very quickly. I wasn't exactly "old and wizened" when I tried reading it, but I was still a reader all my life, so to falter on that book felt a little odd, considering it's not like I should have to be the smartest person ever just to read a book. No, the truth is that Tolkien is just not that good at writing, the same way that Hegel is not that good at communicating ideas. It just ends up feeling dense, dry, and confusing, in a way that other authors sidestep with expertise and skill, thus proving to me that I can certainly read complex, interesting books with complex, interesting characters, plots, lore, themes, and other attributes. It's simply Tolkien that is overhyped and thus, for the crime of being overhyped but underperforming, I think it's best to avoid his work.

[Anonymous No.22694060]

>>22694046
>In any case, your lack of any real refutation rests my case

And I'm not much of a Tolkien fan. I've never particularly enjoyed the lord of the rings novels in their own right. I'm not refuting your argument any further than I already have because you don't have one. You've completely misunderstood both the work and why people care about it.

[Anonymous No.22694066]

>>22694046
>Tolkien was trying to create an epic journey

Lol
Lmao
That's not what it is at all. Amongst other things it's a stalking horse for Hobbes.

[Anonymous No.22694074]

>>22693961
I cannot imagine anyone except the most cynical, soulless pseuds to not feel a profound longing while reading the passage where Gimli leads Frodo and Sam to the Mirrormere

>‘There lies the Mirrormere, deep Kheled-zaram!’ said Gimli sadly. ‘I remember that he said: “May you have joy of the sight! But we cannot linger there.” Now long shall I journey ere I have joy again. It is I that must hasten away, and he that must remain.’

>The Company now went down the road from the Gates. It was rough and broken, fading to a winding track between heather and whin that thrust amid the cracking stones. But still it could be seen that once long ago a great paved way had wound upwards from the lowlands to the Dwarf-kingdom. In places there were ruined works of stone beside the path, and mounds of green topped with slender birches, or fir-trees sighing in the wind. An eastward bend led them hard by the sward of Mirrormere, and there not far from the roadside stood a single column broken at the top.

>‘That is Durin’s Stone!’ cried Gimli. ‘I cannot pass without turning aside for a moment to look at the wonder of the dale!’

‘Be swift then!’ said Aragorn, looking back towards the Gates. ‘The Sun sinks early. The Ores will not, maybe, come out till after dusk, but we must be far away before nightfall. The Moon is almost spent, and it will be dark tonight.’

>‘Come with me, Frodo!’ cried the dwarf, springing from the road. ‘I would not have you go without seeing Kheledzaram.’ He ran down the long green slope. Frodo followed slowly, drawn by the still blue water in spite of hurt and weariness; Sam came up behind.

>Beside the standing stone Gimli halted and looked up. It was cracked and weather-worn, and the faint runes upon its side could not be read. ‘This pillar marks the spot where Durin first looked in the Mirrormere,’ said the dwarf. ‘Let us look ourselves once, ere we go!’

>They stooped over the dark water. At first they could see nothing. Then slowly they saw the forms of the encircling mountains mirrored in a profound blue, and the peaks were like plumes of white flame above them; beyond there was a space of sky. There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own stooping forms no shadow could be seen.

>‘O Kheled-zaram fair and wonderful!’ said Gimli. ‘There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!’ He bowed, and turned away, and hastened back up the greensward to the road again.

>‘What did you see?’ said Pippin to Sam, but Sam was too deep in thought to answer.

[Anonymous No.22694081]

>>22694060

You make statements but lack evidence or logic proving them. You say, "You've completely misunderstood both the work and why people care about it." which is an empty statement that only attempts to claim I am wrong somehow, but you did not actually explain how I am wrong. I have no idea why it is that I've "misunderstand the work," nor have you explained why "people care about it."

If I have said anything with my words, it's that I have read the books, and I have read about the lore on Wikipedia and stuff, due to my status as a nerd and yes, I've indeed played Dungeons and Dragons before, as a dungeon master and as a player, so it is not as if I am ignorant to its cultural prestige and its effects. The fact that I bother to critique Tolkien at all only makes you look more blitheringly pathetic, as if you cannot comprehend that I only dare critique him out of my respect for him and his work. I don't critique F Gardner.

I will clarify then, "Your lack of valid refutation rests my case." Hold yourself to higher intellectual fortitude. I have no need to be impotently refuted by a midwit such as yourself.

[Anonymous No.22694091]

>>22694066

An epic journey.
I said an EPIC JOURNEY.

That is combining the words "Epic" with "Journey."

Do you fail to comprehend what an Epic is? Like the kalevala? Gilgamesh? An epic is an eternal story, is it not? Now, I do not study "epics," so do not insult me for not knowing every last epic and the absolute definition of epics, but when I say "epic journey," I mean it is an epic about a journey.

If you wish to look at "epic journeys" as some simple-minded vacation roadtrip, then do so. But I use the phrase "Epic journey" in the sense of ultimate respect for what he was trying to do.

[Anonymous No.22694092]

>>22694081

Can't actually tell if your posts are AI generated. Your rhetoric has the same blindspots as chatgpt.

[Anonymous No.22694095]

>>22693976
How is quantity in ANY manner an indicator of quality? What a dumb thing to say, holy shit.

[Anonymous No.22694108]

>>22694092

Actually, you are just not writing prompts that have enough detail. If I'm writing multiple paragraphs in response to your single sentence or weak-minded attempts at a refutation, then indeed I am not working with much material.

I am trying my best to entertain you, but you are failing me and yourself for not putting forth the same effort I am. You see, right here for example, you've written two sentences on one line, and neither of them actually refute anything I've said. They are merely insults. To expand upon those worthless words you've spoken with these three paragraphs is a blessing you do not deserve. I am a writer though, and this is a literature board, so I can only assume that I alone am human, and it's the rest of you that are bots.

Solipsism is not preferable, so please increase the quality of your refutations. I don't mind being wrong, but if you cannot justify your statements in a way that convinces anyone other than yourself, then I stand alone here.

[Anonymous No.22694110]

>>22694091
Tolkien wasn't trying to create an epic. He said it's a heroic romance.

[Anonymous No.22694119]

Tolkien's prose is immaculate and the Lord of the Rings is one of the greatest English novels ever written. Anyone who who would disagree is probably too high from huffing their own farts to appreciate how brilliant it is.

[Anonymous No.22694123]

>>22694110

I see no fundamental difference.
Trying to define LOTR is the same as trying to find out which genre The Bible fits under.

Oh, the mythology section? Fantasy? Politics?

No, the Bible stands alone, just as LOTR stands alone. You cannot classify these as mere "epics" or mere "fiction."

The definition of LOTR is itself and everything contained within. That is what culture gets you.
My argument is that LOTR is not deserving of this status anymore, even if once upon a time, it was. It fails on a level of prose and plot, and the fundamental pull of the gallows lever is The Rings of Power, which proved that this series is no longer relevant to humanity. Whatever was once, is now not. The sun has set forever.

[Anonymous No.22694127]

Do people here really act this offended when confronted with the idea that people like Tolkien? What kind of sad existence is that?

[Anonymous No.22694133]

>>22694127
wahhhhhhhhh you're right, we should just NEVER critique or talk about literature omg wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh make the people with criticism and alternative ideas go away wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Anonymous No.22694136]

>>22694095
>Tolkien's legendarium is an absolute classic on par with at least Tolstoy or Dickens
Try to be a bit more clear in your writing. Your post implies that the “Legendarium”—of which Tolkien only compiled two books—is on par with the collected works of Dickens or Tolstoy. If that is actually what you meant then you’re an idiot. I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Anonymous No.22694143]

>>22694123
If you don't understand the meaning of words, then try using a dictionary.

[Anonymous No.22694150]

>>22694133
I mean, yeah, if the critique you offer is nothing but vitriol then nobody is gonna take you seriously, what a breakthrough in intellectual thought.

[Anonymous No.22694155]

>>22694143

Shut the fuck up, Hylic.
Your pathetic attempts at semantics are the definition of insipid and impotent. Get out.

We don’t need you. Leave now and never come back.
Leave now and never come back!
LEAVE NOW AND NEVER COME BACK.

- From the LOTR movie. ;)

[Anonymous No.22694159]

>>22694136
It absolutely is. The society you live in has been shaped as much by Tolkien as it has by Tolstoy or Dickens, if not more so.

[Anonymous No.22694166]

>>22694150

It's not vitriol.

It's several paragraphs of writing, to be falsely refuted by a single sentence from an idiot who cares about semantics or merely defending Tolkien out of hand, rather than engaging with my critique as an intellectual equal. This is almost the only type of critique I ever get here on /lit/. I write paragraphs, and other people think I can be refuted with a single line, as if this was a battle of good vs evil and right vs wrong, instead of an attempt at an actual discussion.

[Anonymous No.22694167]

>OP; lotr isn't a great read
>anon; you're right it's not a great read, that's not why it's important
>OP; reeeee stop liking what I don't like

/thread

[Anonymous No.22694174]

>>22694159
How did Tolstoy shaped society in any way? I think he barely made any impact on society even in Russia, let alone in the whole world.

[Anonymous No.22694176]

>>22694155
I don't think it's unimportant. When you categorize something you compare it to the other things in the category. You criticized the book as epic, but it's not epic. You wouldn't compare it to detective novels. If you're ignorant of heroic romances, then you don't know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.22694185]

>>22694159
You actually think Tolkien’s influence on British society is equal to Dickens? Are Tolkien fans this delusional?

>>22694167
OP hasn’t read Lord of the Rings. If you actually read the OP you would know that. Perhaps that’s expecting too much of Tolkien fans.

[Anonymous No.22694187]

If you don't like Tolkien I'm just gonna assume you're not white and/or woman/troon. Simple as.
>noooooo that's not an intellectual argument
I'm done arguing with retards.

[Anonymous No.22694221]

>>22694127
I think Tolkien fans are more offended to be totally honest.

[Anonymous No.22694225]

>>22694166

You were already refuted in all of the necessary detail. It went by you at mach six. You're not an intellectual equal and even if you were you would not be entitled to the discussion you desire. Cheers.

[Anonymous No.22694234]

>>22694176
>Lol
>Lmao

I think it's a little too late for you to play those cards. I'm not interested in "discussion" with a person of your intellectual caliber.

"If you're ignorant of heroic romances, then you don't know what you're talking about." is the definition of fart sniffing, and for that, I condemn you. You can laugh at my paragraphs all you want, but in the end, you're playing a semantics game and I'm not here for that. I'm here to discuss literature with equals. Not people like you.

[Anonymous No.22694240]

>>22694225

You are pitiful beyond comprehension.
You are as far below me as the pit of hell is below the heavens.

[Anonymous No.22694254]

>>22694187
Nothing says White Man‘a pride like loving a philosemite who wrote significant miscegenation stories throughout his mythos.

[Anonymous No.22694255]

>>22694185
OP is an obvious troll who made this thread to insult Tolkien for whatever reason.

[Anonymous No.22694307]

>>22693844
As not being a Tolkien sister, I do not consider myself to be adressed by the Opening Post.

[Anonymous No.22695506]

>>22693876
I was 6'7" and near on 200 pounds of muscle in high school in high school and the lockers were maybe 30"x12" at most, I didn't get stuffed in shit.

[Anonymous No.22696047]

>>22693844
>I understand this is aimed at children while Lord of the Rings is, er, not somehow?
No, his whole works, at best are severely overrated due to the Hollywood slop movies, and at worse are childish, and that reflects on the fans of these books as well. Just look at any thread, or even this thread, pertaining to the series, the fans are total fucking children who never mentally matured past the age of 15.
The worst is when they actually try arguing that it competes with the great classic epic literature of old. It's not even in good faith when they do it.

[Anonymous No.22696066]

>>22696047
It's not like the critics offer anything of value beyond subjective complaints like "I don't enjoy purple prose" or "There are too many named characters". People who think they're too good for Tolkien are the same people who rely on the genre fiction/literary fiction dichotomy to decide whether a book is "important" or not.

[Anonymous No.22696340]

>>22695506
I’m 6’5 and 190 pounds and ridiculously skinny for my height. There is no way you looked intimidating in the slightest at 6’7 200 pounds.

[Anonymous No.22696389]

>>22695506
>t.

[Anonymous No.22696434]

>>22693844
>this is quite dire stuff

[Anonymous No.22696473]

>>22693868
It's from the Silmarilion

[Anonymous No.22696592]

Is the illustrated version of Lord of the Rings novels any good or should I avoid it?

I don't read novels that have illustrations since it dosen't let me imagine whats going on as much.

I first read the Hobbit and then the LOTR novels ten years ago when I read my brother's Collins Modern Classics edition.

I want to buy my own copy of the series but I'm worried that the illustrated version will ruin what I experienced when i first read it.

[Anonymous No.22696792]

>>22693874
BASED TOLKIEN BRO KEEPS RECITING!

[Anonymous No.22697329]

OP here, I was reading more of The Hobbit when I came across an even more incredulous example. I visibly cringed on the bus and had to explain myself to the old lady sitting next to me, who agreed with its ridiculousness.

>Bilbo would have liked to say: “A warm bath and late breakfast on the lawn afterwards;” but he thought it better to say nothing at all, and to let go his clutch just a tiny bit.

How can anyone defend this?

[Anonymous No.22697737]

>>22697329
C’mon Tolkien shills—defend him comparing Bilbo’s hesitancy to controlling the clutch on a car.

[Anonymous No.22697785]

>>22697737
What car? Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.22697913]

I remember some quote about Wagner, saying something like he alternates between good fifteen minutes and a boring half-hours. I think Tolkein is the prose equivalent.

>>22697737
It's cringeworthy but it's a perfect example of what I'm talking about. He'll go through the effort of creating an entire fictional language and then make weird out of place metaphors like referencing a car's clutch in a fantasy setting without cars. The only explanation I can come up with is that he doesn't give a shit and just wants to get to the next big moment where he decides to put in actual effort.

[Anonymous No.22697924]

>>22697913
Although, I just realised that he was probably using it in a different sense, like the 'clutch of a person's hand' rather than a car.

[Anonymous No.22697931]

>>22697913
Isn't a clutch a purse? Like a handbag.
A manbag. A hobbitsack.

If not that, then isn't it to "clutch" something, like to grab onto something? Like he was nervous, and then released his grip, either mentally or physically, as if relaxing.

But I only defend this from the position of being the same person who posted the extremely long critiques here yesterday, so I am only being honest.

[Anonymous No.22697936]

Do you think that Tolkien regretted writing The Hobbit in a more childish tone?

[Anonymous No.22697962]

>>22694185
>Are Tolkien fans this delusional?
They are. They show up on /v/ sometimes to criticize fantasy settings for being shit because they aren't Tolkien-esque.

[Anonymous No.22698067]

>>22697913
Very true. There are some brilliant passages in LOTR that will make me weep but most of the book feels exhausting and bland. Just going through the motions of the journey with no rise or fall in tension until we hit something interesting again. There's also some very underwritten sections which is weird because many other parts are overwritten. Everything in Theoden's hall felt like it was summarised and skimmed while other parts of the book are so slow you can practically smell the roses. Admittedly the escapism aspect might have been really appealing if I was stuck in a groty city before electronics existed, but I can't enjoy reading for escapism's sake anymore.

Silmarillion is great though.

[Anonymous No.22698128]

>>22697737
Are you ESL? How do you not know what clutch means?

[Anonymous No.22698136]

>>22693844
>Tolkien sisters this is perhaps my most laborious read in recent memory
I think your just a braindead zoomer who never reads anything written past the 20th century

[Anonymous No.22698138]

>>22698067
I think that LOTR might have been better off as a series of short stories or novellas, or an epic poem, more in line with actual mythology, than a 500+ page novel. I've heard that The Children of Hurin is more like that, though I haven't read it yet.

[Anonymous No.22698182]

>>22693957
Get use to it. ChatGPT makes it easy to write high quality pseud posts like this without much creativity even in the prompting. "Give me a contrarian opinion of j r r tolkien" is all it takes. Eyes on the formatting friend. It will betray all.

[Anonymous No.22698195]

>>22693844
I'm ESL so bear with me for what I am about to attempt to describe: Tolkien to me is a very layered read. I kind of feel the same way about the films. I can read the books with half a brain and get what's going on. The next time around, I can pay more attention to detail, and so on and so forth. Every read uncovers something new and I appreciate the style even more. I don't know if that makes sense

[Anonymous No.22698348]

>>22693844
Wallace read LotR five times when he was a teen. So finish it for Dave's sake.

[Anonymous No.22698373]

>>22695506
>I was 6'7" and near on 200 pounds
Heavyweight champion of auschwitz over here.

[Anonymous No.22698693]

>>22698182

The inability to know that I typed that with my OWN HANDS is proof that you are an NPC-Hylic.

You are the betrayer, friendo.

[Anonymous No.22698940]

>>22697329
Bilbo opened an eye
to peep and saw that the birds were already high up and the world was far away, and the mountains were falling back behind
them into the distance. He shut his eyes again and held on tighter.

“Don’t pinch!” said his eagle. “You need not be frightened like a rabbit, even if you look rather like one. It is a fair morning
with little wind. What is finer than flying?”

Bilbo would have liked to say: “A warm bath and late breakfast on the lawn afterwards;” but he thought it better to say nothing
at all, and to let go his clutch just a tiny bit

[Anonymous No.22698985]

>>22698940
It’s obvious bait. Do you really think if Tolkien referenced a car clutch in his work it wouldn’t be plastered on every critique of Tolkien’s prose?

[Anonymous No.22699016]

>>22693933
I love War and Peace, but the "final sprint" involves multiple chapters where Tolstoy does not tell the story at all and instead repeatedly describes his "theory of history" which he has already communicated all book long, but was worried the reader was retarded and so stops the narrative to spell out in detail why he thinks the Great Man theory is wrong. It is definitely not "gripping".

[Anonymous No.22699151]

>>22696434
Of course the so-called critics are gonna ignore this. Figures, after all the criticism offered in this thread is bottom-of-the-barrel nitpicking. As if Tolkien is too offensively lowbrow for their superior standards lol.

[Anonymous No.22699751]

The Hobbit was literally just written to be read as a bed time story to Tolkien's kids.