/clg/ - Classical Languages General

[Anonymous No.22675327]

Laozian edition

>τὸ πρότερον νῆμα·
>>22654754

>Μέγα τὸ Ἑλληνιστί/Ῥωμαϊστί·
https://mega dot nz/folder/FHdXFZ4A#mWgaKv4SeG-2Rx7iMZ6EKw

>Mέγα τὸ ANE
https://mega dot nz/folder/YfsmFRxA#pz58Q6aTDkwn9Ot6G68NRg

Feel free to write your thoughts/stories/etc... in your target language.

>Work in progress FAQ
https://rentry dot co/n8nrko
You are very welcome to suggest additions/changes/etc... especially for other classical languages

[Anonymous No.22675340]

>>22675327
First for Laocius

[Anonymous No.22675359]

>>22675327
湯之盤銘曰:「茍日新,日日新,又日新。」

[Anonymous No.22675409]

https://youtu.be/9Sa5-9pWMHQ?si=Up4HUZCYmrSTQwsE

0% elisions
100 SOUL

[Anonymous No.22675421]

https://youtu.be/9Sa5-9pWMHQ?si=Up4HUZCYmrSTQwsE

0% elisions
100% SOUL

[Anonymous No.22675473]

Alright guys, I promise not to troll about Latin textbooks and be a dick in this thread. Last thread was hilarious, but it's time for another noble soul to pick up the mantel and carry on in my stead. Let's all try to behave like we read more than magazines lol. Anyways, what's everyone's study plans for the evening? It's not /clg/, but I'm gonna catch up on some German and Dutch tonight.
T. Anglosaxonbro

[Anonymous No.22675493]

>>22675473
Taking a bus to the country with a paperback copy of 左傳 I got ages back. Going to read about dukes and kings and their struggle to uphold arcane laws of ritual propriety. If I feel like some poetry I have a Loeb of Callimachus too.

[Anonymous No.22675509]

>>22675493
Big ups for the callimachus. Im rolling up a joint rn and gonna start my practice once she's smoked up. Where ya headed if you feel like revealing?

[Anonymous No.22675546]

>>22675509
Don't like revealing but a quaint village along the finger lakes. Good place to think. Maybe I'll start adapting some 左傳 selections for learners if I feel like it. It's a good Old Testament-like text in that it traces a generational struggle with a unified yet arcane value system. Thinking I'll use this one where a Duke gets told off for wanting to go see fish
https://fanti.dugushici.com/ancient_proses/71559

[Anonymous No.22675568]

>>22675546
Man I hope you enjoy the village brother. I can dig some arcane knowledge type stuff. Lol not exactly the same, but there was a short time o got super into Euclid's elements and the Principia Mathematica, just to branch out my reading list, and it was pretty fire. You ever get into super esoteric/mystical type shit? Closest I've got was the phaedo lol

[Anonymous No.22675578]

>>22675568
I had a Daoist phase the same way most students of Classical Chinese do because it's the second most beautiful prose in the language after the Great Learning.

[Anonymous No.22675586]

SALVETE, AMICI!
EGO SUM AMERICANUS TUTUBER.

[Anonymous No.22675587]

>>22675578
I was fucking heavy with acid in my late teens and with this vietnamee guy who was into daoism - he just kept saying the dao is everything and nothing and it sounded cool when I was fucked but I would actually like to know more now lol. Short summary if it's possible?

[Anonymous No.22675592]

>>22675586
I stg it's not me lol I'm being a good boy. Not that it isn't funny kek
T. Anglosaxonbro

[Anonymous No.22675597]

Any MENOgods here? Plato and Xenophon didn't like him because he was a proto-Nietzschean, so Xenophon reported he got tortured for a year and betrayed but in reality he married into the Persian aristocracy as reported by every other historian.

[Anonymous No.22675603]

>>22675473
>>22675592
Noli nominefaggeare

[Anonymous No.22675604]

>>22675597
Everyone knows that ancient historians are by far the most boring part of /clg/. It's either poetry or you like a cock in your ass, you choose anon

[Anonymous No.22675617]

>>22675603
Ic giefe naman thonne thonne naman giefan wille

[Anonymous No.22675693]

>>22675161
Miraglia's Fabulae Syrae and Lhomond's De viris illustribus

[Anonymous No.22675843]

So after a year of Latin in college and doing pretty well reading through a chapter of LLPSI a day, I'm finding that I have a pretty good grasp on the grammar, but struggle with retaining the extended vocabulary. What are some good websites for drilling the vocab, ideally with pictures instead of english translations? Thanks.

[Anonymous No.22675854]

>>22675843
I have the best book for you. It's called Essential Latin Vocabulary, by mark e. williams and based off a dissertation by Paul Diederich. It contains the 1425 most common words across classical and medieval latin. It's got great paradigms too! It's just genuinely a godsend, and working through it should provide you with an excellent foudnation for your vocab. Practice it every day, reviewing all the words you've learned previously, and add like 25 new ones a day to be done in less than 2 months.
t. ASbro

[Anonymous No.22675903]

>>22675854
Perfect, thanks anon! I just ordered it. Do you have any programs or sites you recommend for flash cards/repetition?

[Anonymous No.22675938]

>>22675903
I have a better method instead - it's tried and true, I've been doing it myself for years. Flashcards imo are a waste of time and energy. If you practice right, just like working out, then you can save all that. What you'll do is this: each new word you encounter, you will do four sets of five. That means you will write it out in full (full principal parts for verbs, full nom/gen. for nouns, etc) in latin, and then in full in english, five times - that's one set. You'll do that four times total, and it should stick in your memory. If not, simply do another set and reassess until it does. Every day, you'll review the words that you've already learned by simply covering the page and reciting them aloud in latin and english. If you need flashcards, do yourself a favour and make them yourself either with anki or even just using powerpoint/google slides if nothing else. Always do the work yourself, never rely on websites. Books are your best friend, because books are how latin has come down to us. The internet is a place for retards to try and larp as quirites - remember that.
t. ASbro

[Anonymous No.22675944]

>>22675938
I forgot to say that if you forget a word during daily review, you'll simply add it to the list of words you need to "exercise" for that day. You don't even have to do for sets for missed review words - just one or two should suffice, that way you can get a move on with new vocab.

[Anonymous No.22676042]

>>22675938
>>22675944
thanks, I'll try that out. I've been doing flashcards for a while now and I don't find that they've been helping much at all.

[Anonymous No.22676054]

>>22676042
Trust me bro, you do this and you'll be sick as fuck. It's kind of a five senses thing - you incorporate as much of yourself into your practice (your hands by writing, your eyes by reading what you write, your mouth by saying everything you write aloud) then your neural pathways for latin will develop much much quicker or some shit idk the real science but i know this is the real tsyht4ruth

[Anonymous No.22676227]

Made some index cards.

[Anonymous No.22676255]

>>22676227
I'm proud of you man. I'm just grinding dutch and german rn. Keep going we're all gonna make it

[Anonymous No.22676573]

>>22675421
>https://youtu.be/9Sa5-9pWMHQ?si=Up4HUZCYmrSTQwsE
>
>0% elisions
Do you speak colloquially with elisions? I don't know how to deal with -am -im -em -um +vowel starting next word. Do you elide the nasal vowel entirely?

[Anonymous No.22676931]

>>22675604
I don't like cock IN my ass but I'm fine with cock rubbing up alongside it as befits a καλός αγένειος, like other historychads.

[Anonymous No.22677153]

Post kino liturgy (any religion goes) in a classical language.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cr27AelV2s
I'm assuming that's Ge'ez, but I don't actually know.

[Anonymous No.22677215]

Is anyone capable of translating this?

[Anonymous No.22677312]

>>22676573
yes, you do - the third line of the Aeneid shows this well
>litora, multum ille et terris iactatus et alto
the -um of multum is completely elided with the following vowel "i" of ille. We know this is the case because it doesn't scan otherwise.
t. ASbro

[Anonymous No.22677323]

>>22677215
4chan isn't your personal army. If you want someone to translate something, pay them a fee just like anyone else or actually learn the fucking language for christs sake.
It's in Anglo-Saxon or Old English
also just to prove to you that i could but simply will not
>This story was first put on the books of Pengolod the "upwita" (which I assume means counsellor or ruler, its not an actual OE word from my brief dictionary search, but made up for this tolkienian story) of Gondolin before it was broken up.
t. ASbro

[Anonymous No.22677392]

>>22675311
I don't see why that should be the relevant factor. So we don't have the same continuous tradition- what reason is that why we can't revive it?

[Anonymous No.22677395]

>>22675493
Where do you find these books?

[Anonymous No.22677408]

>>22675587
The Tao Te Ching is only about 5,000 words (in the original Chinese, obviously translations will vary in their exact word counts.)

[Anonymous No.22677420]

>>22677323
I was just wondering how much the text differentiates between the two languages (Tollers at times wrote the same text in both English and Anglo-Saxon, in the earlier states of his secondary world). Also, was simply curious if there was actually someone proficient in Old English; other old languages are not discussed as much as Latin or Greek, (at least, as far as I see).
Thanks for the translation, btw.

[Anonymous No.22677815]

>>22675587
Sorry for getting back to this late took the bus ride and evening to read and reset my brain
Laozi is esoteric poetry about how the Dao is everything and nothing. There are no passable translations.
Zhuangzi is very similar in form to Platonic dialogues except with the attitude of a Deleuze ridiculing anyone for trying to form any durable understanding
Liezi is a self help book

[Anonymous No.22677819]

>>22677395
I was a philology student in Nanjing when COVID hit. I had the foresight to take at least some of my treasures books when I left

[Anonymous No.22677823]

>>22677819
Ah, I see. So you don't have advice as to where to buy such books in America?

[Anonymous No.22677900]

>>22677823
Chinese books? If I ever want more, I'll import them from Taiwan via 三民書局's website. It's very nineties and of course requires Mandarin to use, especially since they send a confirmation email with every order that you must respond to. Together with shipping they come to about $20 a book and arrive in less than a month. I used them earlier this year when I was possessed by a strong desire to read 金瓶梅

[Anonymous No.22678106]

>>22677900
Ah okay, so no particular idea where to get them in physical bookstores. Well, I guess used bookstores often have a handful of assorted books in other languages, maybe I should look there.

[Anonymous No.22678234]

>>22678106
Rarely. The Chinese diaspora is generally very plugged in and very pragmatic. Everyone reads on their phones. The only US cities with decent Chinese bookstores are SF and Oda.

[Anonymous No.22678243]

>>22678234
*LA. Pardon me, a bad conversation I was overhearing with spite interfered with my brain.

[Anonymous No.22678275]

>>22675586

[Anonymous No.22678307]

>>22675843
I know some people like to shit on it, but I've been using Anki for all new LLPSI vocabulary to great effect. Make sure you enclose the word in a sentence on the flashcard for context. Anki is especially useful for memorizing principal parts.

[Anonymous No.22678332]

>>22678234
Not even in NYC? I'm a lot closer to that.

[Anonymous No.22678924]

>>22677420
There's been me and chinesebro on here lately, and both of us have other langs than Greek and Latin as our main focus (while still knowing those two of course lol). If you want some advice on here to start with OE, lmk in a reply and I can give you a good reading list/learning strat. I'd like to see you translate the rest of that passage lol
t. ASbro

[Anonymous No.22678950]

>>22677815
Thank you for the explanation, although I won't lie I'm no less confused about the nature of the dao. Is this confusion an intentional part of the concept? Sort of a paradoxical representation of yin and yang combined into one? Idek, but it's pretty neat. Btw, wanna hear my theory on what the indo European warrior code was?

[Anonymous No.22678972]

I want to understand the Tao Te Ching in it's original language. I have some limited knowledge of Chinese characters through learning Korean. What are some good resources for me to start with?

[Anonymous No.22679000]

>>22675327
https://nihiladmirabilispress.blogspot.com

[Anonymous No.22679002]

>>22678972
A Chinese textbook. There were a bunch listed in the previous thread I'm pretty sure.

[Anonymous No.22679095]

Where can I find an English-Greek dictionary?

I can find plenty of Greek-English, but not the other way around.

[Anonymous No.22679127]

>>22679095
Pretty sure the website lexilogos should have one

[Anonymous No.22679133]

>>22679095
LSJ online translates both ways

[Anonymous No.22679316]

>>22678332
世界書局 in Flushing used to be my favorite Chinese bookstore in the country. Unfortunately, it closed in 2022, and now there's only 東方書局 on Canal, which charges so much for inferior printings of just about anything that it's probably a front, and lots of 新華 stores that can't even use their PRC funding to build a proper selection.
The advantage of 三民's website is that their editions are effectively the Chinese Loebs. All their classic texts include Zhuyin annotation, Mandarin translations, and glossaries of uncommon words/characters/people and place names. Their commentaries are of varying quality (clearly aimed at precocious Taiwanese high schoolers) but all better than what would find on the Internet. 世界書局 used to have a wall of them, but they're gone now. Since I no longer live in a sinosphere company and can't hope easily to find nice old editions of the texts I want, 三民 are the ones I can justify over ebooks.

[Anonymous No.22679329]

>>22678950
The Dao that can be named is not the eternal Dao, anon. To define it or even to restrict it to one set of feelings (this is what the Western new age crowd errs in) is to do violence to its primeval Dao-ity. To be swift, flexible, malleable is to be close to the Dao; to stiffen and become set in one's ways is indeed to become more like a corpse.
>Btw, wanna hear my theory on what the indo European warrior code was?
Totally. That's what these threads are for.

[Anonymous No.22679337]

>>22678972
Your best bet is Literary Chinese by Router: that's the one that includes Korean pronunciations in case you want to keep using those. Perhaps you should look into the Zhuangzi too though. Laozi is a great text but too many Westerners get bogged down in it alone and miss its whole tradition; historical criticism also suggests that Zhuangzi's inner chapters came first (and you generally don't have to read the other ones.)

[Anonymous No.22679341]

>>22679337
*Rouzer. Pardon me.

[Anonymous No.22679429]

>>22679329
Ight so this is (a really rushed/rough version of) my theory that I wrote about in my thesis and am currently working on a journal article for.
Basically, the indo-europeans were a nomadic, pastoral, patriarchal folk and their warrior code (as well as their proto-hero, *Trito-) reflects this. *Trito- himself goes through two mythemes, the cattle-raid and dragon-slayer episodes. Tons of I.E. heroes reflect these two mythemes as well, most famously represented in the modern world by the familiar story of the princess guarded by a dragon. The princess is a stand-in for cattle (with really cool linguistic connections specifically in the Indo-Aryan traditions; search up the term *dhainu-, milk-giver).
So most heroes will find their stories based on either one or both of these two episodes, but that doesn't address the code specifically. The code can be summed up in what I like to call the immortality equation: death + glory = immortality. The hero gives up his life through the pursuit of glorious deeds (like killing a dragon) in order to gain an immortal life through fame imperishable (a phrase that can be reconstructed in P.I.E., showing how archaic this is). Epic poetry is the medium by which this fame was passed down.
The immortality equation is just the beginning though, because its rather broad. Most heroes tend to follow a few other archetypal patterns, like travelling abroad to serve a foreign king, returning home afterwards with glory and repute amongst his tribe. This corresponds roughly to the P.I.E. concept of the koryos, the werewolf band of young men engaging in the wild hunt.
If you want me to expand on any of these ideas lmk cuz i love nerding out about this and i know this was kinda rambly and all over the place. Basically the heroic code is: travel abroad to serve a foreign king, fight a dragon, and save a princess/cattle, then come back to glory among your kinfolk. Repeat the process until you die, at which point you will have achieved immortality.
t. super baked ASbro

[Anonymous No.22679550]

Bump

[Anonymous No.22679560]

stop namefagging bro

[Anonymous No.22679566]

>>22679560
Ic do thæt nite
>No verification required
Odin approves
t. ASbro

[Anonymous No.22679574]

>>22679566
Na*

[Anonymous No.22679764]

>>22679429
get a trip, you already sign your posts which is the same thing

[Anonymous No.22679779]

>>22677312
I always like to read elisions like that with a w or j sound. like "mul twil let ter ris iac ta tu se tal to". It sounds more natural than completely getting rid of the vowel, but I don't know if it's historically accurate.

[t. ASbro No.22679802]

>>22679764
fair enough man
>>22679779
probably not historically accurate desu

[Anonymous No.22679962]

>湯之盤銘曰:「茍日新,日日新,又日新。」《康誥》曰:「作新民。」《詩》曰:「周雖舊邦,其命惟新。」是故君子無所不用其極。
>On Tang's washbasin it was engraved: "If one day should renew itself, renew yourself day after day. Renew yourself another day." In Kang's Announcement it was said: "Stir up anew the people." The Odes say: "Although the state of Zhou is old, its ordinance is ever new." Thus in no undertaking does the superior man spare any effort.
It hit me on the bus the other day that this is itself an excellent justification for the classics. No wonder Pound and Eliot loved it so much.

[Anonymous No.22681225]

>>22678275
AMICE!
CUR ME ODISTI?!

[Anonymous No.22681230]

>>22679779
My very informal opinion of this is that it's best to model disappeared language features in reconstructions after languages where those features remain. So in reconstructing Greek pitch accent, it stands to reason to use Italian, Turkish, or even Japanese pitch accent as a model where otherwise we'd have to make something up ourselves. In reconstructing Latin elision, it stands to reason to use French or quickly spoken Portuguese as a model. So delete the final vowel.

[Anonymous No.22681248]

>>22681230
Italian doesn't have a pitch accent, and the other two languages aren't even indo-european? Dude even scholars don't attempt to reproduce the Greek pitch because we just don't fucking know. >Informal opinion
is right Jesus Christ like 2 secs of research could've fixed this. Like if you wanted to reconstruct the pitch you could literally just look at the diacritics because they show you which direction it goes in. Like fuck sorry that was just such a braindead take. At least you're right about elision.

[Anonymous No.22681266]

>>22679429
Would you mind sharing your thesis? You may of course remove any personal ID info. I just wanna read more about this.

[Anonymous No.22681271]

>>22681266
Unfortunately, because I'm working on making articles for journal publication out of it and it contains a lot of personal info, I would mind. But if you have any questions in specific, I'd seriously love to answer them. One day when I get the balls to make a YT channel I'll share it on this board and then you'll be able to find out all about me lol. Also any questions on P.I.E. studies and comp ling are right up my alley

[Anonymous No.22681272]

VGH the virtvovs Greeks. Plvtarch the edvcator of princes...
>Recently having been elected for the third time, he yet desired to associate with the boy, but fearing lest his political opponents should make light of the boy's familial ties (for at this time the democracy had recently been re-established), he secretly dressed up as a maid when it was night and snuck into the boy's chamber. Whence the expression "black outside, red inside", but some say the original was "white outside, red inside", referring not to night and the chamber but his garments and desire.

[Anonymous No.22681289]

My Sanmin edition of Laozi

>>22681271
I used to want to make a bilibili channel or something chatting about classics and doing some complit in Chinese. Maybe when life is better again I'll get to it. There is one Austrian teaching Greek and Latin very very well in Beijing, with whose students I'm sure you've rubbed shoulders with or without knowing. Other than him, however, there are very few elevating the Classical Mediterranean studies in China.

[Anonymous No.22681294]

Lysander, rem indignam vīsū esse putāns, ad hominem
illum accessit, et, prehēnsā manū quā virgam tenēbat, sevērē
reprehendit eum ‘ferōcem et minimē hūmānum’ esse dīcēns. Cui
alter, “Num tuum” inquit “est animal? Haec bēstia mea est: quod
igitur mē dēlectat, facere possum; nōnne licet mihi equum meum,
sī ita volō, verberāre?” “Certē” respondit Lysander; “Immō,
exemplum tuum sequar, et idem ego quoque faciam!” Postquam
vērō haec dīxit, magnō baculō, quod manū tenēbat, tergum
hominis graviter iterum iterumque verberāvit. Alter vērō clāmāns:
“Heus”, inquit, “quid agis?!” Cui Lysander, “Quid vīs?” inquit, “Hoc
enim baculum meum est. Nōnne igitur mihi licet eō id facere, quod
mē māximē dēlectat?”

Who was in the wrong here?

[Anonymous No.22681307]

Pictured is why Sanmin and no other should be considered the Chinese Loeb. Zhuyin inserted, definitions of difficult terms, and a good-enough, highly literal Mandarin translation LAST, after the glossary. I can't emphasize enough how nice this is: the Mando translation is there for intermediate students and below, but never distracting. The font is superior to most other offerings too.

[Anonymous No.22681310]

>>22681289
> Sanmin edition
Is this the most authoritative edition?
> foto_no_exif.jpg
This board strips EXIF, btw.

[Anonymous No.22681342]

>>22681294
Scīlicet iūstē verberāvit Lysander vexātōrem bēstiārum. Quōmodo alter posset dēfendī?

[Anonymous No.22681349]

>>22681294
Lysander was not the owner of that man, as he was the owner of the horse.

[Anonymous No.22681352]

>>22681289
>>22681310
Never mind, you mostly answered in your next post at >>22681307 while I was typing.

[Anonymous No.22681355]

>>22681310
They don't aspire to be the best critical editions, but neither do Loebs. They are the best 讀本 (reader's editions) around; they incorporate about as much relevant criticism and notes as Loebs do. True critical editions are usually called 校本. Annoyingly, there isn't really an OCT for Chinese texts.

[Anonymous No.22681361]

>>22681355
> True critical editions are usually called 校本.
Thanks, fully answered now.

[Anonymous No.22681384]

>>22681361
Sort of. I definitely have to add that Chinese critical editions are often more difficult to establish due in no small part to more surviving. Laozi is a particularly messy case, and it's worth reading the Stanford Encyclopedia article about that. Under these conditions, the value of separate 讀本 and 校本 editions tends to be even greater than in the West.

[Anonymous No.22681387]

>>22681342
The horse breaker owns both the switch and the animal. Lysander, however, owns only his cane, not the man, and must rely on Greek pilpul to justify his Aegean temper.

[Anonymous No.22681532]

>>22681387
שָמַעְנוּ פִּלְפּוּל מִשְׁנֵיהֶם וְהַמַּכֶּה סוּס הוּא הָרִאשׁוֹן אֲשֶׁר דִּבֵּר כַּזֹּאת
לִיסַנְדֶר הָיָה אִישׁ צַדִּיק

[Anonymous No.22681624]

>>22681342
Mihi non satis constat, cum vexatori illi non domine praepositus sit, utrum liceat Lysandro ita illum verberare. Nostro tamen generi dedecet crudeliter gerere bestiasque cruciare; qua causa tametsi Lysander non "iuste" egit, difficile dictu est illum non magna expletione egisse.

[Anonymous No.22681777]

I just went to the bookstore and found picrel; a learning Latin book, in my own language.
If I hadn't bought two books already recently, I would have purchased this.
Maybe by Christmas time, I'll get it (with a potential seasonal discount).

[Anonymous No.22682473]

>>22678972
There's plenty of CC resources in Korean. Do you have any interest in learning hyeonto?

[Anonymous No.22682482]

>>22679095
Seconded but for Classical Chinese. And not necessarily an English-to-CC dictionary, an anything-to-CC dictionary.
>>22679127
>>22679133
As in an actual proper English-to-Greek dictionary compiled as such and not just the ability to search in the English field of a Greek-to-English dictionary?

[Anonymous No.22682486]

Anyone here looked at Logos: lingua graeca? Is it any good?

[Anonymous No.22682487]

>>22679316
>All their classic texts include Zhuyin annotation, Mandarin translations, and glossaries of uncommon words/characters/people and place names.
Honestly a commentary in CC would be more useful to me (my Mandarin is if anything worse than my CC, having never formally studied it), or else something with kaeriten and Japanese annotations.

[Anonymous No.22682496]

>>22681230
>>22681248
If you're looking for modern IE languages with pitch accent the main ones I can think of are Lithuanian, Serbo-Croatian, and some Scandinavian varieties (though I think at least in the latter it's a redevelopment).

[Anonymous No.22682501]

>>22681307
Do you have any idea where to find CC-English bilingual editions? (CC-Japanese would do as well.)

[Anonymous No.22682520]

>>22682482
see for yourself https://lsj.gr/wiki/Main_Page
Woodhouse should be the primary source, there's even many idiomatic phrases

[Anonymous No.22682653]

>>22682486
It's a lot more begginer friendly than Athenaze, but by the end it gets insanely hard because it stops glossing all difficult words.

[Anonymous No.22682805]

>>22682482
Do you read French? Use Le grand Ricci addon on Pleco. It costs money but it's one of the best historical dictionaries I've ever used for anything.

>>22682487
>>22682501
Sanmin annotations are (nearly) all in CC.
Iwanami Bunko editions of CC texts are sparse but generally available for pocket change at Book-Offs all over the world. My copy of Sunzi is from them. I far prefer the size and font of Sanmin editions but Japanese paperbacks are very nice objects.

[Anonymous No.22682831]

>>22682805
A follow-up: Avoid PRC editions for the most part. Even when I lived in the PRC I would pay the premium for Hong Kong/Taiwan/Macau texts. It isn't even a matter of censorship: some publishers are just so illiterate these days that they use the wrong traditional character variants. Even when they use the right ones, they use the most godawful fonts because they can't actually read TC and don't care how it looks. Exception: very old books.

>>22682486
Nature method readers are for:
>people also using a traditional grammar and wanting practice reading (which is a very good idea!)
>students working with an exceptional teacher
>very experienced language learners with good intuition
Assuming those conditions, Logos seems fine. The review at https://thepatrologist.com/2023/05/12/%ce%bb%ce%bf%ce%b3%ce%bf%cf%83-lgpsi-a-review/ seemed on the money.

[t. ASbro No.22682853]

>>22682831
Your take on the nature method is tops, big fucking ups for saying this

[Anonymous No.22682873]

>>22682853
Thanks. I actually really like the nature method for myself, but I'm natively multilingual and have been learning new languages since I was seven and so count as an outlier. I think it's reasonable to say that most people can reach a level of language-sense to use it, but it certainly doesn't come automatically.
Above all, I wish people would stop pointing to LLPSI and such as an "easy learn latin fast" trick. There is no way to Latin, Greek, Chinese, or any other language without lots of work. I also wish people would stop denigrating it, since I think beginners should practice reading a lot - but in addition to their other homework

[Anonymous No.22682942]

>>22682805
I can more or less make out written French. Is there any good way to pirate it?

[Anonymous No.22682950]

>>22682831
>It isn't even a matter of censorship: some publishers are just so illiterate these days that they use the wrong traditional character variants.
That doesn't seem like a very big problem in context, surely you could tell which one is meant?

[Anonymous No.22682957]

>>22682805
>Book-Offs
I hadn't heard of these but apparently the nearest one to me is in NYC. You really do have to live in the big big cities to find anything interesting, huh? I guess I'll keep hunting in used book stores.

[t. ASbro No.22682959]

>>22682950
NTA but that shit is harder than you think. I had a book in OE that had a bunch of mistakes in them, and overtime it was hours wasted trying to hunt snarks that never were.

[Anonymous No.22682963]

>>22682482
Forgot to mention Student's Classical Dictionary. Buy this one if and only if
>you are in fact an undergraduate without any Sinosphere cultural background
>you don't speak any French
It's very entertainingly written, but Le grand Ricci is altogether superior, having nearly forty times the entries and tracking nearly every possible historical meaning of a character in addition to what innovations, events, and foreign languages influenced those changes. Truly a superior dictionary.

>>22682501
Victor H. Mair released a bilingual Sunzi. Alas, there isn't really any series that does this large at the scale needed to build a full library. Loebs exist because there was once a whole tradition of young Anglos learning Greek and Latin, and other bilingual editions exist so that people can sound out their favorite foreign poems phonetically or such. It should be pretty clear why a Chinese-English library would fulfill neither of those criteria.
I find this very unlikely to change irrespective of any possible geopolitical developments. Chinese literati have always been the insular sorts that neither invite outsider nor deny those with merit. We barbarians must prove ourselves. Even if we wake up in a world where Italians and Uzbeks must communicate in Chinese, the norm between them will remain oral fluency and functional illiteracy, as is the case with most European MBA students fulfilling their Chinese language requirements today.

[Anonymous No.22682992]

How do I go about Mandarin-maxxxxing? I started Integrated Chinese in uni for the first two semesters, having to take a year off (but auditing still), and will pick back up next year. What should I complement IC with? Even if it takes 10 years I want to become semi-fluent.

[Anonymous No.22682995]

>>22682950
It's ugly. That should be reason enough.
Beyond that, though, it is extremely, extremely annoying to have to stop and wonder whether 只 is 只, 衹, or 隻, especially when it's in a text written thousands of years ago. It's hard to convey this to non-readers of Sinographs, but much of the advantage of the writing system is how fast it is to read when one's proficient. The eye can recognize very big blocks of those at a time. No language speed-reads quite as nicely as Chinese. Now I certainly don't make a habit of speed-reading CC, but even then it slows me down an unreasonable degree to deal with PRC-isms. It's annoying.

>>22682957
You might be SOL then. I am ethnically nip myself and I know of no other decent ways to get Japanese books affordably outside of Japan. Maybe order from Sanmin then, or just go to ctext.org and hit ctrl+P a lot.

[Anonymous No.22683016]

>>22682992
Not a classical language. I'll answer anyway.
Integrated Chinese is a bad textbook. The best textbook for producing CSL speakers who aren't total illiterate savages is Elementary Chinese by Der-Lin Chao. The best textbook for producing proficient CSL speakers who are total illiterate savages is Basic Mandarin: Speaking and Listening. This may be reasonable if you have an urgent reason to speak Chinese and don't really need to read right away. It's what the best Chinese teachers in the country seem to advocate disproportionately at any rate. I knew many gwailo who spoke awkward, barbarous but conversationally fluent Mando when I lived in China, and many of them made decent money posing for people's car commercials or whatever. I don't think sorrow at not being able to understand the subtleties of Wang Wei bothered them very often.
However, perhaps you really do want something more out of the language. Then it won't take ten years but you do need to be obsessed to the point that you no longer ask other how to do it. The one common factor between the gwailo I've known with very good Chinese (including myself) is absolute obsession.

[Anonymous No.22683025]

>>22682992
Also I don't recommend podcasts often or ever but I have to shout out Popup Chinese. It's been over for about ten years now but it was worked on in part by one Brendan O'Kane. He is one of the most erudite CSL gwailos I've ever met, and certainly the most erudite by far in his own age group. He's a very good translator too. It's still a language podcast with all that entails, but if it's good enough for John McWhorter it's good enough for you.

[Anonymous No.22683044]

>>22683016
I've definitely felt that IC isn't that good, and teamed with my professors messy method of instructing, hasn't made for the easiest go of it. Along with graduate classes to the side, has made fully focusing on it even harder. At the very least I want to be able to read and translate well, and from there with due time learn to speak beyond just surviving/basic conversation, hopefully reach a level that will really enable my work/career in diplomacy/international relations. Like I said, I'm hoping to fully pick it back up class wise next year, and to pick up more basics and practice until then, and hopefully figure out class scheduling where I can really focus & submerge myself.

I'll give Chao's book a good look over here now, thanks anon.

[Anonymous No.22683066]

>>22682995
Wasn't there a good bit of 假借 in historical texts? Not that it'll be the same substitutions, but still.

[Anonymous No.22683251]

>>22682942
There's probably a way. I bought it and consider it to have been a good purchase given how much I use it. I think there's an electronic Grand Ricci that might be easier to pirate than the Pleco version, but then the main advantage of Pleco is being able to use many different dictionaries at once.

>>22683066
Yes, and the reason why that makes it worse is embedded in your post right there. It's the difference between knowing more about a particular historical usage and knowing less because of intrusive PRC-isms. To be clear, I don't have a problem juggling the two systems, which is necessary for Chinese scholarship in our day and age. I only strongly prefer that texts written in Traditional Characters be reproduced in the same characters. Failing that, I'd rather just have Simplified Characters than incorrect Traditional ones.

[Anonymous No.22683267]

Good to see the Chinese takeover of this thread has just turned into discussing modern Mandarin

[Anonymous No.22683270]

>>22683251
Is there a paper Grand Ricci?

[Anonymous No.22683291]

>>22683270
Good point. I felt bad for that anon since it was the second time they had asked but it really has no more place here than, say, discussing the necessity of French for Latin scholarship.

[Anonymous No.22683301]

>>22683267
Pardon. >>22683291 was in response to you.

>>22683270
Yes. It costs a little bit more. Pleco's bidirectional search makes it worth it, but I suppose that's only very useful if you're fluent in French.

[t. ASbro No.22683355]

>>22683267
>T. Monolingual

[t. ASbro No.22683374]

>>22675586
Technically it wouldn't be "tutuber" but rather "vostuber," just because of the etymological origins of you as the English 2nd person plural

[Anonymous No.22683846]

Question for the CCbros: are Romance of the Three Kingdoms and the other novels in Classical Chinese? Or are they just in older, but still vernacular Chinese?

[Anonymous No.22684030]

>>22683846
三國 is in Classical Chinese, and isn't terribly difficult. However, it requires a decent amount of cultural and historical knowledge. The others are all vernacular. If reading 三國 is your goal, you can probably do it as soon as you know enough characters.

[Anonymous No.22684047]

>>22684030
Let me correct myself. Sanguo is the very margin of what can be considered Classical. It uses plenty of vernacular turns of phrase. Archetypical 半白半文

[Anonymous No.22684165]

I've been reading a chapter of LLPSI every day, I'm halfway through the book now and this was the first chapter that took me significantly under an hour to read. I know it's not much to brag about and I have a long way to go but I'm very happy with myself and finally feeling the results of studying is excellent.

[Anonymous No.22684701]

>>22683374
> just because of the etymological origins of you as the English 2nd person plural
Isn't it the 2nd person singular though?

[t. ASbro No.22684815]

>>22684701
Nah, thats what the now archaic "thou" was. Basically, it was considered polite to use the plural form, you, when referring to someone in the second singular (cf. German and French) so our singular you, "thou," just died out because soon everyone demanded to be called by the polite form all the time. The more you know.

[t. ASbro No.22684817]

>>22684165
Ok but are you using an actual textbook too? See
>>22682873 for why that shit is important and why you shouldn't only use llpsi

[Anonymous No.22684829]

Gentlemen... it's time

[t. ASbro No.22684962]

>>22684829
Good lad. Take it day by day, and really focus on memorizing vocab and understanding the intricacies of case. And principal parts, always memorize principal parts right away!!

[Anonymous No.22685437]

>Latinx learners think their language has actual principal parts
try learning Greek lol

[t. ASbro No.22685650]

>>22685437
>First year uni student thinks that most people who are learning Latin aren't also interested in Greek
Once you're done your first midterms, then you can talk lol

[Anonymous No.22686103]

I'm posting some autism I found on Quora (is Miku Chan one of you guys?), regarding the use of Greek word anaks, leader, by Homer. The relevant part is marked in yellow.
Source: https://www.quora.com/How-do-we-know-that-a-Proto-Indo-European-language-really-existed-What-is-the-evidence

[Anonymous No.22686178]

How useful is Latin literacy for learning ancient greek?

[Anonymous No.22686220]

>>22686178
It's very good, much of the grammar, syntax, and even conjugations are the same in both languages

[Anonymous No.22686237]

>>22686178
More than >>22686220, just being used to Latin declension horror is very useful to tackle something that would be quite alien to an English-only speaker.

[t. ASbro No.22686356]

>>22686103
Yeah this is cool stuff. Now, you should try and get into the metrical/characterization reasons for using terms like anax instead of others like basileus or hegemon. Search up which characters are referred to by anax and stuff. William whallon wrote a great book on homeric, old English, and Old testament epithets, you should check him out too.

[Anonymous No.22686988]

>>22684817
Do you think explicit knowledge of linguistics is helpful for making the nature method work?

[Anonymous No.22686995]

>>22684815
That may well be true, but the 'you' in 'YouTube' is best translated as 'tu' because regardless of its etymology, in that context it clearly means 'your particular individual self', as indicated by their former slogan 'Broadcast Yourself'. A word's etymology doesn't dictate its current meaning.

[Anonymous No.22687009]

>>22686103
Hey, I think I know this person on Discord, based on the icon and the description.

[Anonymous No.22687061]

>>22686995
Useless trivia: in old Portuguese, people of high status couldn't be addressed with "tu" (the cognate of "thou"), only with "vossa mercê" ("your mercy"). By phoneme loss, this changed into "vossemecê", "vosmecê", and the current form "você", that now is, at least in most Brazilian regions, the pronoun used as singular "you" (plural: "vocês"). The form "tu" is considered archaic in most parts of Brazil, but still used in Portugal (I think).

[Anonymous No.22687067]

>>22687061
Yes, something similar happened with usted in Spanish, from vuestra merced.

[t. ASbro No.22687078]

>>22686988
Somewhat. Like if you have learned Latin or Greek the traditional way, the nature method for the other will naturally work much better because you're familiar with much of the requisite grammar and syntax (there's a ton of bleed over). But like, coming from a straight linguistics major won't help you. I just have a thing against linguistics though (not comp ling tho comp ling is my jam) so take what I say with a grain of salt. Ling folks are fucking duuuumb.
>>22686995
I suppose I was just thinking of morphology instead definitions, fair point I'll take it. Tutube sounds better anyway

[Anonymous No.22687089]

>>22687078
I will say that I'm also far from monolingual, being fluent in two languages and conversational in two more, I'm not going into this purely on abstract linguistic knowledge.

[Anonymous No.22687092]

>>22687067
It's tragic that the Iberian Union didn't last. I'm Brazilian, and nowadays we are struggling (and failing) hard to avoid even more divergence between the "Brazilian" and "European" Portuguese dialects. The Europeans are very bitter about the latest spelling agreement to minimize the damage.

[Anonymous No.22687095]

>>22687092
I don't think you really can prevent language drift. Anyway, the most likely scenario for reconvergence is that Portuguese start talking more like Brazilians because of Brazilian TV and YouTubers, so be careful what you wish for.

[t. ASbro No.22687110]

>>22687089
So I have this super u popular opinion about romance language speakers learning Latin, mostly influenced by my own teaching experience. I tend to find it takes a lot longer for romance language speakers to learn Latin, because they often refuse to actually learn. This isn't the exact same for this situation, but you just need to be careful of falling into a similar pitfall. The nature method only works if you have an exceptional teacher, are an exceptional language learner (you're not, I'm not, very few are), or if you are using a great textbook or following along diligently with a grammar as a heavy supplement. I'd say even 50/50, although I'd recommend more textbook work than nature method work. That's just my two cents tho

[t. ASbro No.22687114]

>>22687110
Let me clarify: they refuse to treat Latin like a foreign language, and instead as a dialect of whatever romance language they speak. They won't memorize vocab or grammar. That's my gripe. Eventually they realize it just sucks teaching them cuz it takes a while

[Anonymous No.22687146]

>>22687095
Battling language drift is an exquisite, Sisyphean sport practiced in Europe to minimize damage from the tragic collapse of Rome that took Latin with it. Spelling and grammar in formal language are kept as close as possible to Latin so that there is some degree of mutual intelligibility in written texts.
Then, enter the European colonies to throw wrenches into the process. English went through a spelling shift to make its words with French more alike to the original forms (for example, colour) but this was not followed by the colonies. Brazilian Portuguese is a clusterfuck that is not even worse only because in the yore times of the Marquis of Pombal he killed the developing creole in Brazil ("lingoa geral", actually two distinct dialects) with extreme prejudice. Sadly, later Portugal forbid higher education on its colonies, and then language drift became worse.
>>22687114
There are several intriguing books on comparative grammar for some Romance languages that teach four or five of them contrasting and comparing their grammars, with the intent of enabling some degree of mutual understanding among their speakers.

[t. ASbro No.22687159]

>>22687146
I actually think those books are cool and they work because of the high degree of mutual intelligibility. The same has actually been done for Greek and Latin! I forget the title but search it up. My issue with romance speakers is that Latin is not mutually intelligible with whatever language they know, so it doesn't work past some basic vocab. Anyways you'll do great with the nature method but remember that you can't make it your only method and it really shouldn't even be your main one

[Anonymous No.22687171]

Question for fellow CCanons: If I want to do listening exercises, what pronunciation is the best compromise between preserved distinctions in pronunciation and availability of audio materials? For reference, I've listened to a chapter of Sunzi I hadn't read before repeatedly in Mandarin pronunciation and managed to transcribe some eighty-something correctly despite my limited level of CC, but when I try the same with Tang poems I catch virtually nothing.

[Anonymous No.22687172]

>>22687159
Quite often Romanian is not present in these books (the other languages are Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, and French) because Romanian is the most different of this set.

[Anonymous No.22687185]

>>22687171
Not knowing anything about the system you are describing, never forget that language is a communication tool and what is best always depends on what you are going to do with it. And avoid falling into the "I have only a hammer, hence everything is nails" trap.

[t. ASbro No.22687186]

>>22687172
My point exactly, I believe. You ever try one of those books tho? Good a good rec for a relative beginner? Obv I know Latin lol

[Anonymous No.22687191]

>>22687185
What do you mean by 'the system that I'm describing'? And what do you mean by 'I only have a hammer so everything is nails' in this context?

[Anonymous No.22687200]

>>22686988
I find phonetics and phonology very useful for understanding the "why" of Greek and Latin and other irregular forms. In addition to that, people with linguistics knowledge tend to have a better attitude about the process, since they're less likely to decry features dissimilar to their native language as "weird." That's the extent of it though.

>>22687061
>By phoneme loss
This isn't phoneme loss. This is a morphological change at most. Phoneme loss is the actual disappearance of phonemes from a language, as in the loss of [h] from all Romance languages.

[Anonymous No.22687216]

>>22687186
If you know Latin you already have the structure to follow through one of these books. Say,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08R449XKP
is available on Kindle Unlimited. The proof of the pudding is on the eating, skim through it to check if it appeals to you (the first edition is available on the Anna's Archive).
>>22687171
Only now I figured out that "CCanons" means "anons interested on Classic Chinese". You might want to use the International Phonetic Alphabet combined with your own cheating.
>>22687200
My formal knowledge of linguistics sadly is severely lacking, I have only a high school certificate and turboautism is my strong point. The process I'm describing is parts of the word disappearing, I don't know its formal name (maybe elision?).

[Anonymous No.22687218]

>>22687171
>>22687185
CC is really not similar to Greek or Latin. It's a very strange beast of a language in that it probably cannot be used as a tool for oral communication. Probably archaizing forms couldn't even be used during the Tang. One favorite Tang poet to teach is 王梵志, who wrote in a vernacular both similar to and very different from Modern Standard Mandarin. I remember having a brief fling with a Chinese Malaysian who ridiculed my attempts to form novel sentences in CC: in her view anything not directly quoted was not real CC.
All this is to say that listening practice and declamations should come *after* reading. The indigenous pedagogy for CC has followed this for centuries.

[Anonymous No.22687226]

>>22687216
I believe that process is called simplification? Elision is when a final vowel is dropped in succession with another word that starts with a vowel

[Anonymous No.22687235]

>>22687216
>You might want to use the International Phonetic Alphabet combined with your own cheating.
What? I don't understand what that has to do with the question I asked.
>>22687218
>it probably cannot be used as a tool for oral communication
Certainly in Old Chinese pronunciation it could, but even in Middle Chinese I think it probably can (I've fed a friend who's teaching himself CC in Middle Chinese pronunciation passages in romanized MC, and he's converted it back to characters with only one or two errors, generally expressions/allusions he doesn't know). Hell, apparently even in Mandarin sufficiently erudite speakers can make out a surprising amount.
>All this is to say that listening practice and declamations should come *after* reading. The indigenous pedagogy for CC has followed this for centuries.
It has? As far as I know, children would often learn to recite the primer texts by heart before they learned a single character.

[Anonymous No.22687236]

>>22687218
as has the indigenous pedagogy of Greek and Latin. Amen.

[Anonymous No.22687252]

>>22687216
Elision is a better term here.

>>22687235
Learning MC pronunciation by heart is fascinating and not for me. Can't comment on that.
>As far as I know, children would often learn to recite the primer texts by heart before they learned a single character.
True of very basic texts, such as the Thousand Character Classic and Three Character Classic, the latter of which is half-vernacular. Slight infodump incoming

[Anonymous No.22687265]

>>22687252
I mean hell, MC has the most distinctions of anything we have a pretty clear idea about the sound of, but even Sino-Vietnamese nust pretty good for the purpose since there are a bunch of Vietnamese bilingual editions with CC in Romanized Sino-Vietnamese on one side, Vietnamese translation on the other, and nary a Chinese character in sight. Surely this would be a profoundly stupid waste of ink and paper if Sino-Vietnamese pronunciation didn't provide enough information for someone familiar with the language to distinguish which words/morphemes are being used?

[Anonymous No.22687267]

>>22687252
I know some written languages are, for the lack of the formal term, "incomplete" in the sense they are not a 1:1 map of all elements used in speech (one form of this is a written language that has no symbols for vowels). Is Classic Chinese like this? I mean, some poems might need to be "filled" with unwritten parts for the metric to "work".

[Anonymous No.22687273]

>>22687267
Most CC is probably more elliptical than real speech, but more or less based on a natural language, as far as I can tell.

[Anonymous No.22687277]

>>22687218
>I remember having a brief fling with a Chinese Malaysian who ridiculed my attempts to form novel sentences in CC: in her view anything not directly quoted was not real CC.
Out of curiosity, how old did something have to be to be real CC in her view? Written by a native OC speaker?

[Anonymous No.22687293]

Infodump canceled; I was off on a tangent. I'll summarize it to this: As you probably already know, there was not a very developed tradition of Chinese grammar. The historically available ways to learn Chinese writing were to work with effectively a private tutor who would explain every phrase and every character, effectively translating off the cuff, and/or to memorize straight off the page. In either case, the meaning of the text came as close to simultaneously with the text as possible, but never solely from the sounds of the text. This is even the case for the Thousand and Three Character Classics.

>>22687265
Fair! Perhaps I'm close-minded. I don't speak Vietnamese at all. That said, this sounds remarkably similar to the former case as above.

>>22687267
Chinese is not an abjad, and Chinese poetic meters tend to be very strict.

[Anonymous No.22687296]

>>22687293
>Infodump canceled; I was off on a tangent.
Aw, I'd actually be interested to hear it.
>In either case, the meaning of the text came as close to simultaneously with the text as possible, but never solely from the sounds of the text.
True, but in my case I already have some knowledge of the language.

[Anonymous No.22687337]

>>22687296
Well, here's what I was infodumping about: Chinese grammatical traditions were not generally used for teaching because they wouldn't have been very useful for teaching. Much of the crux is the interesting yet somewhat arbitrary distinction between 實詞 (full words) and 虛詞 (empty words.) It's important stuff to know for some references in some important texts, but not really applicable and certainly no good for building any language instinct.

As for my general idea about your method, I just don't think it would even be the best method for learning a living language, but suit yourself. I like Steve Krashen: he's an affable guy. However, the majority of /int/ers and redditors mindlessly inpooting really might as well be playing video games. The crux of comprehensible input is that any means necessary should be used to make sure the student understands every message they receive. Missing words is okay; sitting there confused is not. This means that pre-readings, simultaneous vocab keys, and incessant repetition of texts you *already know well* are the way to go: not listening for listening's sake. I presume you already know Sunzi well, but not those Tang poets, since you didn't name any. Try really memorizing a few of those poems, then practice listening, then come back and let us know how it's going.

>>22687277
She was well-read (as are almost all educated Chinese--I know of no Chinese Sam Bankman-Frieds) but not at all a philologist. So she probably had the folk understanding that CC = anything pre-1911 that isn't explicitly vernacular.

[Anonymous No.22687347]

>just found out about Greek declensions and now they're asking me to apply new accents to declined words like I bothered to remember all the motherfucking and fatherfucking accent rules

[Anonymous No.22687359]

>>22687337
>So she probably had the folk understanding that CC = anything pre-1911 that isn't explicitly vernacular.
So she thinks that LS texts written by a Mandarin-speaker in 1900 are CC but those written by a native speaker of the exact same language today aren't?

[Anonymous No.22687363]

>>22687337
I mean, I have memorized some poetry, but apparently not enough. I guess the ultimate thing for me is that I really like audiobooks and would ultimately like to be able to listen to them in CC.

[Anonymous No.22687365]

>>22687347
me in first year fuckin kek

[Anonymous No.22687377]

>>22687359
Most folk understandings break down under closer investigation. She was a fashion designer, and part of what's significant about that is that the equivalent type in the West probably would never have read any classical texts at all beyond The Odyssey in translation in high school.

>>22687363
Understandable. I guess just learn the poems well first, then treat them like those songs that some people listen to over and over again. Or surely there are recordings of recitations with explanations in your sinosphere language of choice?

[Anonymous No.22687396]

To the one or two other CC anons in this thread, by the way, what do we think of 韓非子 slowly acquiring a sort of status as a De Bello Gallico or Anabasis in Western colleges? I feel mostly positive towards it myself: I think it's better than both of those texts, though I do have some affection for Xeno. That said, I wonder if trying to follow a philosophical argument and a new language at once might not be an excessive cognitive load.

[Anonymous No.22687430]

>>22687061
Oh yes. The "tu" is very commonly used here; "você" is equally used as a more polite addressing. (Though "você" is technically 3rd person singular)
In northern Portugal (as it is more common there), we also use the 2nd person plural "vós" for an even more politeness or a very important person.

[Anonymous No.22688414]

Does anyone have a version of Iliad with long alphas, iotas and ypsilons marked?

[Anonymous No.22688914]

>>22688414
...someone needs to learn how to scan the most basic form of poetic metre in Greek. Like now.

[Anonymous No.22689034]

>>22688414
maybe they exist but they aren't that necessary, unlike with Latin
the few unmarked long α, ι, υ you are going to run into are going to normally be predictable from the meter, especially if you get comfortable enough with the latter
even in Latin after a while you can basically read hexameter fairly fluently without macrons

[Anonymous No.22689036]

>>22688414
Here's an exercise for you. If you are an autodidact, this is a common and useful school exercise that you are probably in danger of missing.
>pick any section of the Iliad and print it out double spaced
>take a pencil and scan it completely. make sure you have six units of dactyls and spondees per line
>practice declaiming as you tap out the rhythm on a table or whatever. this will feel unnatural to you at first. repeat until it feels natural, about a week or maybe more
When you're done, not only will you not need long alphas, iotas, and hypsilons marked, but you'll be able fully to appreciate Homer.

[Anonymous No.22689113]

>>22689036
>fully appreciate homer
Sorry, but that won't happen until you spend a couple years studying him on his own, with a lot of supplementary commentaries and other academic materials, and a lot of experience analyzing literary/rhetorical device in Greek. Like if you cant identify basic chiasmus or ring structure, you can't appreciate homer lol But this is a good first step.

[Anonymous No.22689566]

>>22689113
True. I should work on my overuse of hyperbolic language. But to be able to hear the meter is a necessary first step.

[Anonymous No.22689820]

>>22689566
Agreed, and by far the most crucial step. Good post.

[Anonymous No.22689821]

>>22687377
>Or surely there are recordings of recitations with explanations in your sinosphere language of choice?
Probably, though I don't know where to find them.

[Anonymous No.22689826]

>>22687396
>That said, I wonder if trying to follow a philosophical argument and a new language at once might not be an excessive cognitive load.
Is there anything you'd suggest as an alternative?

[Anonymous No.22689831]

>>22689826
I'm tempted to say that we should imitate the Chinese themselves and assign 古文觀止. But that's a lot of reading.

[Anonymous No.22689833]

>>22689113
Who can't identify a chiasm? Sure, they might not know the word, but if you pointed it out to people with "you know that thing where..." they'd be like "oh yeah I know that thing".

[Anonymous No.22690100]

/clg/ - classical chinese and namefags general

[Anonymous No.22690136]

>>22690100
Classical Chinese is a classical language and I only see one namefag in the whole thread scrolling up.

[Anonymous No.22690164]

>>22690100
I don't see the issue with the former. Get back to studying.

[Anonymous No.22690174]

>>22690136
It's a bug language, you leftwing faggot.

[Anonymous No.22690177]

>>22690174
Get back to /pol/ or back to studying. Choose one.

[Anonymous No.22690184]

>>22690174
It is one of the five great classical languages in world history alongside Latin, Greek, Arabic, and Sanskrit. Now fuck off back to /pol/.

[Anonymous No.22690214]

>>22690177
>>22690184
>Go back to /po-ACK!
Why are there troons here?

[Anonymous No.22690218]

>>22690174
Sinoposter here. How are your Greek and Latin? What are your favorite texts? Let's talk about them.

[Anonymous No.22690230]

>>22690214
>You will not post any of the following outside of /b/:
>Racism

[Anonymous No.22690236]

>>22690230
Though I might also add trolling.

[Anonymous No.22690241]

>>22689833
It's not really all that intuitive, you def need an explanation or to have been familiar with the topic already

[Anonymous No.22690249]

>>22690174
>t. Monolingual University drop out
How does it feel knowing that first year Latin was too hard for ya?

[Anonymous No.22690250]

>>22690230
What racism have I done? Also, please go back to r*ddit, holy fuck. You are a scourge here.
>>22690218
Better than yours LOL

[Anonymous No.22690255]

>>22690250
>[Classical Chinese is] a bug language
>What racism have I done?

[Anonymous No.22690256]

>>22690250
>You're a scourge here
As far as I remember we were all having a nice little chat and then you decided to throw a shit fit? Idk thats just my take.

[Anonymous No.22690257]

>>22690250
Okay. I'll take you on your word. What are some of your favorite texts? Let's discuss them.

[Anonymous No.22690343]

>>22688914
>>22689034
>>22689036
What is the usual way of dealing with meters that have actual interchangeable short/long spots? Do the poets tend to try to make sure that it's a determinate heavy/light position if the vowel itself is not determinate? Seems like that wouldn't be feasible in all cases.

Idk, anytime I think about this stuff it just makes me seethe at the loss of the actual body of poetry in which all the different metrical variations could have been seen in action.

>>22690241
Major doubt. Maybe if it's many-layered/nested people would have a hard time perceiving the whole structure, but a basic chiasmus on the line/couplet level that reuses the actual words is very obvious.

[Anonymous No.22690507]

>>22690343
not sure I follow your question, syllable with long vowel = long => can replace two shorts in the hexameter just like a long syllable ending in consonant; the poet is free to choose whether to use two shorts or long as long as the basic structure of the meter is respected e.g each foot must start with a long

but regarding the length question, take e.g
>Λῦτο δ’ ἀγών, λαοὶ δὲ θοὰς ἐπὶ νῆας ἕκαστοι
long-short-short-long-??? is the α in the λα of λαοὶ long or short? well, it's followed by a long οὶ, and preceded by the start of a foot which is long, so it has to be λᾱοὶ, a long ᾱ

this is an example but once you can hear the meter in your head these will almost be automatic, that's my experience, I rarely had to look up a word's vowel length because I couldn't figure it out from the rhythm

[Anonymous No.22690560]

>>22690507
Sorry, I was not explicit enough in my question. By "meters that have actual interchangeable short/long spots", I mean something like the iambic trimeter of tragic dialogue, where the total number of *morae* in a line is variable, not just the number of syllables, so a long syllable can replace a short one with no other change made to the line. But yeah I guess you can just look it up, Homer is the only poetry I've actually tried to read with full attention to the meter so I hadn't really done that yet.

[Anonymous No.22690568]

>>22690560
You're talking about the anceps. It mens double head in Latin, and it's what you're describing. Basically just get good. You're learn with practice.

[Anonymous No.22690578]

>>22690257
Notice that the minute we wanted to engage in what e claimed to know, the racist shit talker left. Almost like he didn't actually know Greek or Latin lol

[Anonymous No.22690635]

>>22690568
But is that simply a product of learning the syllable lengths associated with particular words? Or is it that there are particular patterns, varying by author or by some aspect of the situation, in how the anceps is resolved in a particular meter?

>>22690578
The "bug" thing is hilarious to me because it's such a transparent cope for the anxiety that comes from realizing on some level that Asians beat them on so many of the same metrics on which they pride themselves on being better than blacks. Sounds exactly like blacks talking about how wypipo ain't got no rhythm and don't season they food. Very weak.

[Anonymous No.22690652]

>>22690635
>anti-white shit-talking from the classical chinese learner
just outed yourself, you slimy piece of shit

[Anonymous No.22690736]

>>22690652
I'm not him and I only know a bit of Chinese, I'm more interested in Greek although I do plan to make Chinese my next area of focus (Sanskrit, Persian and Old Norse are on the table as well though, not totally sure). I'm not anti-white, I'm white and I love Classical, Germanic/Celtic and Medieval Christian culture. I just recognize how weak, artificially self-serving and anti-intellectual your pathetic copes are.

[Anonymous No.22690831]

>>22690736
Godly post

[Anonymous No.22691012]

>>22690652
Too late.
Someone got their discord buddies to come here and this general is theirs now. For years the only CC posts were from EsperantoTroon or occasional learners asking about introductory books. Starting a couple threads ago though more than half the posts are about CC with this one probably pushing 80%. Note the change in atmosphere as well with the appearance of "You will not post racism outside of /b/" and the implied threat of running to jannie, clearly not an indigenous mindset.
This is how /clg/ is now, get used to it. Frankly it had been declining for a while so not too big of a loss. Note also the seething this post will generate.

[Anonymous No.22691034]

>>22691012
wtf i love discord now
(won't ever use it, but still)

[Anonymous No.22691056]

>>22687365
I'm not even in a class. I'm just self-teaching out of a textbook my city's library had lying around. What are classes like? Are they better?

[Anonymous No.22691057]

>>22691012
take your meds, and I say this as someone who's usually as racist as they come
thread's fine, varied, no one stopping you from posting about Latin and Greek, it doesn't need artificial bumps but it's as fast as ever
would you prefer to go back to LLPSI shitflinging between zombie page 10 bumps?

[Anonymous No.22691064]

>>22691057
>would you prefer to go back to LLPSI shitflinging between zombie page 10 bumps?
yes

[Anonymous No.22691069]

I too tire of gookshilling (it is also a problem in /ssfg/)

[Anonymous No.22691070]

>>22675493
Wow, I just read that book. It’s a book about imaginary fancy laws that people respect but was ruined by an unjust duke and their whore. And guess how I also read Loeb of Callimachus, it was in my Intro to Mandarin class back in freshman year! Not one poem was good for me but maybe you’ll think different.

[Anonymous No.22691085]

>>22691012
You're still perfectly allowed to talk about Latin and Greek. This general is for all classical languages, not just western ones.

[Anonymous No.22691095]

>>22691069
What's /ssfg/? When I search for it on find.4chan.org the only result I find is your post here.

[Anonymous No.22691179]

>>22691012
>>22691064
>You don't actually want to talk Greek and Latin, you just don't want people to talk about Chinese
Ngmi

[Anonymous No.22691209]

>>22690343
Just responding to the chiasmus thing - coming from a university teaching perspective, students are super fucking dumb and literally do need their hand held for that shit, even something as basic as chiasmus. It's hard without a decent teacher or textbooks.
>>22690635
Basically I'd say that as opposed to learning the vowel quantities for individual words, learning what epithets that are most commonly used, or other stock phrases found quite often in poetry, as well as a mastery of the metre you're in will help (i.e. knowing that although the final foot of a homeric meter ought to be a spondee, two longs, the last one can be replaced - that's called brevis in longo)

[Anonymous No.22691214]

>>22691209
E.g.* not i.e. sorry

[Anonymous No.22691258]

>>22691012
>>22691034
I'm literally on a discord server about CC and other East Asian classical languages. We have better things to do than go pestering /pol/tards.

[Anonymous No.22691279]

>>22691209
Ok, I don't quite see it but like I say my hands-on experience is limited so I will just try to put in the time and see how it goes. This is probably a minor point anyway tbqh, I was just wondering if there was something obvious that wasn't mentioned in the little basic intro I was reading.

[Anonymous No.22691286]

>>22691070
schizophrenic post

[Anonymous No.22691314]

>>22691286
>He didn’t read Callimachus in his intro to Mandarin class

[Anonymous No.22691317]

>>22691314
>he didn't deny his blatant schizophrenia in both his post and his life

[Anonymous No.22691331]

>>22691095
>>22691069
New janny policing microaggressions I see, while leaving rampant shitpost threads up for days. Just what we need.

[Anonymous No.22691333]

>>22691331
coming from the cc-side of the argument, yeah, not super cool. Although i don't fuck with just racist shitflinging either - that's /b/ tier shit. If you're gonna be a racist dummy at least use book memes

[Anonymous No.22691348]

>>22691056
classes are sorta good and bad. Basically, the big thing with taking a greek and latin class is that you're gonna deal with an outrageous amount of pseuds, granted of course that you aren't one yourself. Very few students, at least where I'm from in the world, view it more than a party trick, and even the ones that continue pass the first and second years are the personality equivalent of magicians or stage actors: they like to look flashy and talk about how cool their greek and latin is, meanwhile they're in class scraping by with a C- average. The worst is when they get into graduate degrees, which they do because so few people care about these languages where im from, and then they really get a big head.

All that sounds bad, so what's the good? The old dudes that have been doing this shit for years. Basically, if you get on their good side, they'll take you to the moon and back. Full-funding, job opportunities, references, study abroad are just a few of the things I was given by getting in good with them. You just gotta be good at talking to them and being super consistent with your work ethic. That's the key - these old fuckers see through horse shit, so you have to fucking slog through the horse shit yourself so you can get to the other side they're standing on. They'll know.

[Anonymous No.22691360]

CC anons seem to at least care about the language they study which makes them better than 90% of Latin posters and maybe 30% of Greek posters, ALTHOUGH the fact that some of them are trying to make a narrative about fighting racism is cringe as fuck

[Anonymous No.22691365]

>>22691360
we literally just want a space to exist, we aren't trying to take anything over, and wypipo can't let us have that alongside them here. I hate this fucking cliched argument but like what the fuck its actually the case?? Just live and let live??

[Anonymous No.22691376]

>>22691056
Classes are mainly good because they keep you motivated and focused. You are scared of tanking your GPA or wasting a semester worth of time so you force yourself to study even if it's at the last minute. It gives you supplementary momentum if you're a low motivation retard who never follows through with plans.

But you can absolutely just do it on your own. The other main benefit is being able to ask quick questions and get quick answers. But you can just ask your retarded friends on /clg/ and get wrong answers instead!

[Anonymous No.22691386]

>>22691365
You just keep making high quality posts about CC and ignoring any stupid bait, hopefully it will inspire other anons to do the same for Greek and Latin
The fact that a large chunk of this thread is now CC says less about CCanons than it does about the shit state of discussion before and how few people cared about making good Greek/Latin posts. Better some anons who care keep the thread alive rather than page 10 necrobumps in LLPSI arguments

[Anonymous No.22691399]

Ytbois should get used to living under yellow rule. Soon it will be like this irl too lol.

[Anonymous No.22691401]

>>22691386
NTA but this is the truth. Just post whatever language you like - Greek, Latin, CC, Old English, whatever. Speaking of which;
Favourite Old English poetry/ or prose anybody? Beowulf is an obvious choice, and on the prose side I've been really digging the chronicle and Bede. Super cool stuff - ik both are basic as fuck though lol.

[Anonymous No.22691508]

>jumped into the vulgate
>able to understand about 95% of 1st Corinthians
Feels good.

[Anonymous No.22691521]

>>22691508
Dude that's fucking awesome. What did you take away from the text? What was different in Latin, what was different about the vulgate Latin itself - basically just tell us more!

[Anonymous No.22691758]

>>22691521
I'm no philological expert, but Vulgate Latin is stylistically pretty different from what I've encountered in LLPSI or other readers. For example, the common (apparent) use of quia as "that" caught my eye. I'll need to read more in order to say more about it.

[Anonymous No.22691761]

man why'd the thread have to start dying once the dumbfucks left goddammit

[Anonymous No.22691764]

>>22691758
any other stuff you've noticed? what about the use of the infinitive for example?

[Anonymous No.22691772]

>>22691764
I'm not sure. Is there anything I ought to be looking for?

[Anonymous No.22691780]

>>22691772
Just expanded usage, like the start of the infinitive used for purpose clauses (instead of being introduced by ut). Stuff like that, even outside the infinitive. Word order, simplicity in vocabulary, choice of vocabulary, so much cool stuff to delve deep into. Compare later and earlier translations too, that shit be fun.

[Anonymous No.22691783]

>>22691780
Thanks, I'll keep an eye out for these.

[Anonymous No.22691846]

>>22691056
You may not advance at exactly the pace you'd like in a formally class. That's okay. It's a tradeoff to make sure you come to know what you don't know and might otherwise never find out you don't know. It's also an opportunity to spend time with people who have been where you want to be.
Incidentally there is not even any doubt about this in Chinese culture. 師說 by 韓愈, such a standard CC essay that it appears on kitsch teacups, should perhaps be required reading for these threads.

[Anonymous No.22691862]

So I still haven't gotten around to making a beginning Classical Chinese infographic, but perhaps we should set the goal of converting the whole FAQ into that? We could definitely make Greek and Latin ones, and perhaps Sanskrit, Arabic, Hebrew, and other langs too if some anons come out of the woodwork. I think people would be more likely to read (and, crucially, circulate) those than the FAQ.

[Anonymous No.22691905]

>>22691862
I'd do it for anglo-saxon, i just dont wanna reveal any personal info in the process. how would this work?

[Anonymous No.22692019]

>>22691780
Wasn't there a later translation that rendered the Bible in Ciceronian-style Latin?

[Anonymous No.22692198]

>>22691365
>we literally just want a space to exist
Make a Discord

[Anonymous No.22692202]

>>22691862
Just delete all of them except Chinese, this is a CC general now. Latin and Greek posters can make a new general.

[Anonymous No.22692319]

>>22692198
>>22692202
This is Classical Languages General, not Latin and Greek General. Nobody's stopping you from posting about Latin and Greek, but this thread is for classical languages in general.

[Anonymous No.22692371]

>>22692319
True brother. Those dumb idiots didn't expect us to take over when they created the thread. We are here to stay forever.

[Anonymous No.22692900]

>>22692019
Not sure, haven't read it if there is. Mind posting a link if or title if you find it in your travels?

[Anonymous No.22692918]

>>22692900
I don't remember much else about it but I'll let you know if I stumble across it again. I'd go about trying to google for it if I could be arsed.

[Anonymous No.22692979]

>>22691905
The goal is just a bunch of pngs mostly transmitting the same info as the FAQ. Canvas or anything should be good enough for it

[Anonymous No.22693133]

>>22692900
Sebastian Castellio's translation

[Anonymous No.22693170]

>>22693133
Nice gonna check it out

[Anonymous No.22693404]

>>22693133
I read every s as it was an f and there's nothing you can do about it

[Anonymous No.22693424]

>>22691862
I'm going to make a Greek one, but it should be edited afterwards since some anons definitely know more than me.

[Anonymous No.22693438]

On scale from A1 to C2, what would be the difficulty of reading the Vulgate New Testament?

[Anonymous No.22693444]

>>22691012
>EsperantoTroon
The only based poster this thread has ever had.

[Anonymous No.22693474]

>>22693444
trips of basedness

[Anonymous No.22694515]

finna bump
μέλλω βαμπίσαι

[Anonymous No.22694518]

Necrobump - notice that this started happening after Latin talks. Ffs.

[Anonymous No.22694527]

>>22693438
F7 for fucking racecars

[Anonymous No.22694557]

>>22693438
CEFL is used for living languages, so it isn't clear that we can use it for dead ones. In addition, being able to read native texts, irrespective of difficulty, is usually generalized to B2. Not very helpful for these purposes.
As for the difficulty of the text itself, it's easy enough that a self-motivated first semester student should be able to get through it.

[Anonymous No.22694567]

Metaposting is boring.

>>22693424
Let me know if you want anyone else to brainstorm for this. I can definitely come up with a list of resources/a few tentative study plans

[Anonymous No.22694616]

Do any of you know farsi? Is it true that you'd need to know arabic as well if you wanted to read the persian classics?

[Anonymous No.22694640]

>>22694616
No, this is actually really not the case. At least with some books, like the shahnameh. That one in particular was written with a "purer" form of Persian in order to try and rally the culture. But obviously Arabic would help, as well as indo-european langs like Sanskrit or Greek

[Anonymous No.22694651]

>>22694567
Tentative view on this:
Differentiate study plans into "I've never studied a language before," "I've never studied a classical language before," and "I've studied a classical language before." Obviously there are levels of confidence other than this, but neither those above or below need any guide.
The former is the most important. They should be given instructions on how to learn a new alphabet.
The general plan should be Mastronarde + Logos with appropriate adjustments to pacing for each level. The lowest level should probably only begin Logos after getting a few chapters into Mastronarde and review very frequently, whereas the highest can more or less apply pre-existing language knowledge to the specific case of Greek and focus on reading.

[Anonymous No.22694660]

>>22694651
Mastronarde is a really based grammar choice, but not for newer students. I'd personally start them off on Greek: and Intensive course, it's a bit more beginner focused/friendly

[Anonymous No.22694672]

>>22694616
I don't know much Persian, but I really doubt this. Obviously it would enhance one's understanding somewhat, but plenty of people read English classics without Greek or Latin and Japanese classics without Chinese.

[Anonymous No.22694683]

>>22694660
True. I'm basing it off what seems popular in universities specifically modified to needs of autodidacts, but you're right. I guess the lower two levels should use Hanson & Quinn and the upper should use Mastronarde. I prefer Athenaze (IT) over Logos but we shouldn't presume Italian knowledge. I dislike English Athenaze.

[Anonymous No.22694700]

>>22694683
Also, it's my view that *all* guides should be that the most likely-to-succeed study plan is simply enrolling in a high-quality class in person and diligently completing all its contents. Autodidacticism is for very confident students, people unable to find a class, and utter social rejects. To be fair, there are probably plenty here who fit into one or more of those categories.

[Anonymous No.22694765]

>>22694683
> I prefer Athenaze (IT) over Logos but we shouldn't presume Italian knowledge.
Giving an English alternative is fair, but in the end, please don't simply leave out known high-quality resources that aren't in English. Some people DO read other languages, and if I see shit like "in English that's really the only halfway decent book about the topic; the absolute best work is unfortunately only available in German" (without mentioning the fucking title) ever again...

>>22694700
> the most likely-to-succeed study plan is simply enrolling in a high-quality class in person
The "just be yourself, bro" of classical language learning.

[Anonymous No.22694792]

Tentative plan for a CC study guide

>I've never studied a language before
Study characters for two weeks to a month first. Memorize 鹿柴 by 王維 while doing this. Use a gloss, and learn both to recite and write it from memory.
Go through Van Norden. Every time you reach a new chapter, review all previous readings. This should not be hard as the book has very few (too few) readings.
When you are done with Van Norden, move on to Fuller. Also memorize one poem from 唐詩三百首 per chapter.
When done with Fuller, move onto Shaddick or Brandt. The full program should take about a year with diligence. From here, you should be able to read the essential texts of the language.

>I've never studied an East-Asian language before
Same as above, but cutting out Van Norden and adding Rouzer as a supplement to Fuller.

>I know an East-Asian language
Go directly to Rouzer + Shaddick/Brandt.

>Supplemental reading
Cai Zong-qi's textbooks can be begun on completion of Van Norden. They are excellent for introducing Chinese literary culture to those without the cultural background, and provide glosses of some of the greatest texts in the language.
Gu-Wen Guan-Zhi can be begun on completion of Shaddick or Brandt. It is still the best comprehensive CC reader, and provides an overview of prose from all periods up to the Ming.
Han Feizi is in simple language with subtle and sometimes difficult arguments. It can be attempted while midway through Shaddick or Brandt.
The Analects of Confucius are essential reading, and in simple language; however they should be read with Zhu Xi's commentary.

>>22694765
Fair, but let's not put IT-Athenaze under "I've never studied a language before." Maybe under higher levels with the caveat that it's in Italian.
>The "just be yourself, bro" of classical language learning.
Quite the opposite. Maybe the word "simply" there is deceptive, but the fact is that most people just aren't diligent or obsessive enough to succeed in such a task without a class.

[Anonymous No.22694798]

>>22694792
+ Endymion Wilkinson as a reference book for culture and history, though not really language. The fact is that most Westerners don't have the same intuition about Chinese culture as they do about other Western cultures, and Wilkinson fills this in very nicely (and makes a great doorstopper.)

[Anonymous No.22694992]

>>22693133
If you like that, you will probably also like these:
https://web.archive.org/web/20190405153208/http://www.stoa.org/colloquia/

[Anonymous No.22695050]

>>22691012
>as well with the appearance of "You will not post racism outside of /b/" and the implied threat of running to jannie, clearly not an indigenous mindset.
Why shouldn't the proprietors of the website take action against things that disrupt other users' ability to use the site for its intended purpose?

[Anonymous No.22695057]

>>22693444
Thank you, though I wish I could have a less embarrassing nickname here. Why not just "Esperanto anonette"?

[Anonymous No.22695063]

>>22694651
>Obviously there are levels of confidence other than this, but neither those above or below need any guide.
How do you get a lower level of confidence than "I've never studied a language before"?

[Anonymous No.22695067]

>>22694672
Though a lot of early Japanese classics were in Chinese lol

[Anonymous No.22695070]

>>22694700
A lot of classes for Western classical languages use stupid methods though.

[Anonymous No.22695071]

>>22695050
faggot
you have to go back

[Anonymous No.22695076]

>>22695063
There's actual language-aversion, ie most anglos.

>>22695070
Hence high-quality.

[Anonymous No.22695080]

>>22695067
Yep. Hence the lack of definite article on "Japanese classics."

[Anonymous No.22695081]

>>22695063
I've never studied a language and Im really bad at English? Like a fair amount of people here know some English grammar, which is rare and does out them a bit higher in the totem pole in language learning, although still very near the bottom

[Anonymous No.22695083]

>>22694792
>>I know an East-Asian language
>Go directly to Rouzer + Shaddick/Brandt.
Do you think it makes sense to study through 漢文訓読 if you already know Japanese, or to study 懸吐 if you know Korean?

[Anonymous No.22695087]

>>22695071
That's not an answer to my question.

[Anonymous No.22695093]

>>22695076
What would you consider to qualify as high-quality? (Also classical chinese courses are hard to come by in the west.)
>>22695081
If you're a native English speaker, by definition your English is fine, because there's no coherent definition of "good English" other than "how native speakers actually speak".

[Anonymous No.22695121]

>>22695083
Generally yes. The issue is that I personally don't know anything about the Korean system, and I dislike the Japanese system (I find it unpoetic.) Furthermore, both are an odd intersection of Literary Sinitic and Japanese or Korean studies, and should probably have *entirely* different entry paths/texts, restricting my ability to fit everything into one generalized infographic. Finally, most people here frankly are not going to be native level in Japanese or Korean, so taking the anglophone's route on a sort of fast lane might be most convenient.

[Anonymous No.22695149]

>>22695093
>What would you consider to qualify as high-quality? (Also classical chinese courses are hard to come by in the west.)
That's true about Classical Chinese; the advice was geared more towards Greek and Latin. Sadly, those are dwindling too. I can recommend the Greek and Latin Institute. It's an intensive course that generally produces very good results. It is however extremely stressful.
>If you're a native English speaker, by definition your English is fine, because there's no coherent definition of "good English" other than "how native speakers actually speak".
Linguistics truism. Read Walter J Ong. I might agree in some contexts, but there's very clearly such a domain of knowledge as formal grammar/literary usage.

[Anonymous No.22695153]

>>22695093
You clearly didn't understand o was talking about grammar, which most native speakers do not have a good grasp of and are therefore "native yet bad." Youre even worse, as you lack fucking reading comprehension. Learn to read, learn grammar, then come back and contribute to this erudite discussion (the tricky word that starts with "e" means smart!)

[Anonymous No.22695159]

>>22695149
>Ling truism
So fucking true, but not even university level ling. Like "I just read my first Pinkerton novel" (yes they're novels not fucking scholarship) ling

[Anonymous No.22695163]

>>22695153
>(the tricky word that starts with "e" means smart!)
reddit

[Anonymous No.22695167]

>>22695121
Let me also add, if it might explain my approach, that I'm myself Japanese-American and educated in an international Japanese school, and very, very strongly prefer Chinese pronunciation (Mando, Canto, any) for CC. Many Japanese who truly care for Chinese letters, especially poetry, would agree. Kambun is interesting but ultimately a dreadful school exercise not unlike trying to read great poems and essays through a word scramble. Chinese pronunciation really makes the texts sing. I can't imagine the situation is that different with Korean, though probably a little less severe due to that language's richer phonetics.
Part of this is that I'm a Sinoboo of sorts: I'll admit to that much. If you are a weaboo and wish to do the exact same dreadful school exercises as Japanese twelve year olds then I won't stop you, but I cringe at kambun reading of Chinese poetry just as much as I cringe at reading Homer without vowel length.

[Anonymous No.22695168]

>>22695163
>T. University drop out that needs to resort to "reddit" whenever someone online makes him feel (rightfully) inferior

[Anonymous No.22695182]

>>22695159
I've met master's students who parrot this. Curiously, they're almost all well-to-do American monolinguals.
Obviously signs themselves are arbitrary, but this is effectively the linguistics equivalent of naive middle-school moral relativism. If you cannot understand why someone would want their children to be educated to reproduce respected language forms, you have thought yourself out of understanding some very basic things about humanity.

[Anonymous No.22695263]

>>22695182
Ich kann Deutsch du verfickter dummkopf lmfao was jetzt bru? Und ich habe mein studium im gegensatz zu dir abgeschlossen lol

[Anonymous No.22695276]

>>22695182
Echt leise bist du ja?

[Anonymous No.22695282]

>>22695121
I feel like even if you're not native level there's something to be said for being able to link it to an actual living spoken language that's alive in your mouth and ears and not only your hands and eyes.

[Anonymous No.22695305]

>>22695182
Btfo

[Anonymous No.22695311]

>>22695149
>I can recommend the Greek and Latin Institute. It's an intensive course that generally produces very good results.
Does it actually teach you to read and not just transverbalize?
>>22695149
>>22695153
>I might agree in some contexts, but there's very clearly such a domain of knowledge as formal grammar/literary usage.
Knowing about grammar isn't the same thing as knowing how to use grammar. My dad hardly knows a blessed thing about grammar, but he speaks perfectly eloquent English.
>>22695159
I have a degree in linguistics.
>>22695182
>Curiously, they're almost all well-to-do American monolinguals.
Middle class, and not monolingual.
>If you cannot understand why someone would want their children to be educated to reproduce respected language forms, you have thought yourself out of understanding some very basic things about humanity.
I understand that some language varieties have more prestige than others, but that's not a matter of them being intrinsically superior on a linguistic level.

[Anonymous No.22695323]

>>22695311
Your dad speaks perfect English, but he wouldn't necessarily learn as well as someone who is familiar with terms like case, declension, conjugation, etc. this is really all I (and I think the other anon) means. As for a ling degree, I have unpopular opinions I think. The issue for me is this - all the time is spent learning concepts and not language. I'm just philosophically opposed to that kind of learning, it's why I hate theoretical maths as well. Not that it isn't legit (although some forms are way less than others, as in classics and other study). Anyways that's my two cents.

[Anonymous No.22695324]

>>22695167
What's your opinion on straight onyomi like Buddhist sutras are read in? Obviously there are variables, like you could read it flat like buddhist sutras or artificially re-add tones (or at least 平仄), you could just read it in modern onyomi values or you could add back in the distinctions made in historical kana, etc, but in terms of the basic concept?

[Anonymous No.22695338]

>>22695323
>Your dad speaks perfect English, but he wouldn't necessarily learn as well as someone who is familiar with terms like case, declension, conjugation, etc.
Sure, explicit knowledge of the grammar of your own language can help with learning another language, it's just not the same thing as speaking your own language well.
>The issue for me is this - all the time is spent learning concepts and not language.
Speaking a lot of languages doesn't necessarily tell you about the underlying mechanisms of how language works, just like driving a lot of cars doesn't teach you how to repair an engine.

[Anonymous No.22695351]

>>22695338
No, speaking a lot of them won't. But LEARNING a lot of them one hundred percent will. Because I know Greek and Latin, I know a ton of grammar (more than most of the ling guys I went to school with) and it's all practical which is great.

[Anonymous No.22695356]

>>22695351
You have to learn a language to speak it, so I'm not sure what you mean.

[Anonymous No.22695358]

>>22695263
>>22695276
>>22695282
Pardon; I was cooking. Glad to hear you've finished your studies. I don't mean to be mean but I think this is a truism that people do overgeneralize.

>>22695282
Yes, true.

>>22695311
>but that's not a matter of them being intrinsically superior on a linguistic level.
Nor was I ever claiming that.

[Anonymous No.22695360]

>>22695356
My father speaks 6 languages and learned none of them, simply absorbed them through osmosis. He's from a part of the world where that just happens, and those people don't know anymore grammar than your monolingual dad. Learning versus picking up and speaking a language are super dif.

[Anonymous No.22695367]

>>22695324
Well, that's a separate matter. There's a whole tradition of near-gibberish Buddhist kambun-Japanese, as I'm sure you well know. I don't think they "should stop." I'm just saying that my own preference is Chinese.

[Anonymous No.22695369]

>>22695358
Studium bedeutet "studies" in diesem context, sondern "degree" ya fucken dunce

[Anonymous No.22695370]

>>22695369
Bedeutet nicht*

[Anonymous No.22695374]

>>22695311
>I have a degree in linguistics.
That's what I did for undergrad. Well, I double-majored, but I won't reveal terribly more. Just know that I don't say what I say to be a 4chan dilettante.

>>22695369
Good to know. I should brush up on my German someday.

[Anonymous No.22695382]

>>22695360
Your father's neural paths probably work fairly differently from that of an average anglo monolingual, as do mine. There are outliers, and we cannot convince ourselves that everyone can instantly learn their methods. I once destroyed a relationship assuming such. Live and learn

[Anonymous No.22695391]

>>22695360
Ah I see, you're using 'learning' in a narrower sense I'm not accustomed to.

[Anonymous No.22695392]

>>22695374
Deutsch ist leider für keine idioten, die sagen die dingen dass du sagte, also es mag dir ein bisschen schwierig sein

[Anonymous No.22695396]

>>22695391
Ya like I mean actual sit and study type learning

[Anonymous No.22695399]

>>22695392
Die die dingen sagen fick mich meinen typos sind grauenhaft heute it's hard switching from German to English and back lol

[Anonymous No.22695404]

>>22695399
Also sagtest just fuckin kill me lol I just got off work don't judge too hard

[Anonymous No.22695409]

>>22695392
I'll admit I used rather aggressive language at first: call it muscle memory from this site. That said, as a holder of a linguistics degree myself, there is a gap between social science and people's wishes, and a gap between the deepest truths about language and what anglo monolinguals are willing to accept. That's all.

[Anonymous No.22695414]

>>22695396
Do you not include things like LLPSI or reading a text in the language alongside a text in your own "sit and study type learning"?

[Anonymous No.22695419]

>>22695414
*under "sit and study type learning"?

[Anonymous No.22695425]

>>22695414
Less so. I always focus way more on grammar. Llpsi is an attempt at learning languages like my dad, but it's a poor one imo. It can't escape the need to sit still, which is why you'd even ask this question (not that it's a bad question)

>>22695409
Alright let's kiss and make up. I made a fool of myself a bit auf Deutsch too so whatever lol I'll get over myself

[Anonymous No.22695458]

NEW
>>22695453
>>22695453
>>22695453

[Anonymous No.22695526]

>>22691401
Honestly, one of my favorite OE prose pieces I’ve read is called Fronthill Letter. It’s a neat and actually pretty humorous letter about a land dispute. Check it out if you can find it online.

[Anonymous No.22697202]

>>22695419