/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22555220]

He's correct

[Anonymous No.22555230]

>>22555220
>draft dodging boomer pretending to understand war better than a veteran of the Somme
cringe

[Anonymous No.22555234]

Someone please post the diarrhea text, it’s literally his best work

[Anonymous No.22555247]

>>22555220
Gherms society under war in like an early modern conflict of uber death

[Anonymous No.22555258]

>>22555220
That's an insidious take, he is basically saying that fantasy books should use critical theory.
He probably thinks that "everything is political" and art for its own sake is somehow deficient.

[Anonymous No.22555262]

>>22555230
He dodged it because he knows the true nature of war and didn't fall for nationalist propaganda

[Anonymous No.22555268]

>>22555230
Thank you for your service.

[Anonymous No.22555270]

>>22555262
He dodged because he was (and is) a fat faggot & commie lover

[Anonymous No.22555283]

>>22555220
Do you think he'll finish winds of winter?

[Anonymous No.22555286]

>>22555270
>unironically justifying Americans torturing innocent people in Vietnam
You're brainwashed.

[Anonymous No.22555288]

>>22555270
He wasn't fat when he was young and every nation is free to govern as they please. (((Americans))) sticking their Jewish noses everywhere shouldn't be supported.

[Anonymous No.22555293]

>>22555286
>nooooo not the heckin vietnarinos!!!!

[Anonymous No.22555299]

>>22555270
I'm not fat and ain't no way imma put my life at risk to fight a retarded war for (((them)))
It's one thing to defend your country but to travel half way across the globe and fight a useless war because muh commies bad is retarded

[Anonymous No.22555856]

>>22555220
What allegory can the genre of fantasy fill that can't just be created with historical fiction or contemporary fiction? It is a genre for children. Making violent/dark fantasy is just lazy and is an avoidance of doing actual research on a period/place/culture>>22555220
for whatever story you want to tell

[Anonymous No.22556037]

>Soon the signs of war could be seen on every hand. Weeds and thorns and brushy trees grew high as a horse’s head in fields where autumn wheat should be ripening, the kingsroad was bereft of travelers, and wolves ruled the weary world from dusk till dawn.
It wouldn't even occur for most writers to list these simple things as "the signs of war"

[Anonymous No.22556055]

>>22555220
I'll concede the point to him when he finishes his series lol. JUST TWO MORE WEEKS, GRRMBROS!

[Anonymous No.22556064]

>>22556037
scifi has been an entertainment product for women for the last 20 years, it's bound to be shallow having lots of sex in it

[Anonymous No.22556066]

This fat fuck takes a dig at Tolkien every chance he gets but he'll never be half the man or writer that Tolkien was.

[Anonymous No.22556073]

>>22555234
https://youtu.be/QmKhGqWcJGY

[Anonymous No.22556074]

>>22556066
He's an obese parasite latched relentlessly onto Tolkien's nutsack

[Anonymous No.22556447]

>>22555262
Falling for nationalist propaganda is part of the true nature of war, faggot. Nobody who wouldn't fall for the propaganda can know the true nature of war because they can't know the desire FOR war.

[Anonymous No.22556462]

>>22555258
No, I think he's just saying that war really sucks and that isn't captured by happy fairy tales about the struggle of light against dark.

[Anonymous No.22556709]

>>22555299
It's fine. We need idiots like him to act as cannon fodder.

[Anonymous No.22556725]

>>22555299
It's good because communism is something that should be crushed. However, whereas you don't want to fight the war because of phantoms, I would not want to fight it because the US is crypto communist either way.

[Anonymous No.22556785]

>>22555283
he already finished it, he just won't publish anything

[Anonymous No.22556798]

>>22555262
Vietnam wasn’t a nationalist war it was a war to contain communism and give democracy and liberalism to Vietnamese people. Kind of inverted Trotskyism and it’s really more nationalist to not fight because you don’t care if the yellow man is free or a slave

[Anonymous No.22556819]

>>22556798
>give democracy and liberalism to Vietnamese people.
You're thoroughly brainwashed lmao

[Anonymous No.22556825]

Shocking fact that that coward who refused to fight bemoans the fact that others can.

[Anonymous No.22557126]

>>22555220
>Lord of the Rings is about war
this quote can't be real, he can't be this retarded, right?

[Anonymous No.22557332]

>>22555220
A lot of fantasy is vapid, yes even stuff I personally love. But I think he sells it short as even the Belgariad deals with the horrors that change society accompanying war. You have an entire nation where the women remain eternally pregnant to avoid being sacrificed, you have gods angry against colonial exploitation of their people. This is a work firmly planted in classical heroic fantasy with no desire to subvert anything but it still touches on humanity.

But I have an issue with GRRM going after Tolkien here because its simply not true. The Silmarillion alone is basically the tale of people ruined by their own natures and the wars that come from it. How many kingdoms were ruined by generational sin? Pure loves sullied by it? Great men died, yes they died great deaths but its still shown as tragic and their losses aren't forgotten or wiped away. The Return of the King is often mocked for having a very large part of the book just being Aragorn et al dealing with the aftermaths of victory; Gondor is in shambles and the Shire was taken over by Saruman. The returning heroes, our beloved hobbits, can't even rest when they return home because it too has been wracked by evil caused from the greater war. Even that peaceful backwater isn't truly safe. And what of the veterans of the Fellowship? Some are wounded forevermore, others can no longer live in the post-war world, yet others consume the rest of their lives triggering a restorationist period. Perhaps GRRM is being a little loose and not including Tolkien except as a watershed moment in the genre, but to discount a series where Frodo cannot live a normal life because of his physical and mental wounds as "not dealing with the consequences of war on the individual" is dishonest.

[Anonymous No.22557335]

>>22556798
the democracy in question was run by a military junta

[Anonymous No.22557348]

>>22555220
what you mean, no honest consequences

>Catastrophe of the Balrog at Khazad-dum exploited by goblin forces; the raze and purge of Moria.

>Destruction of the isengard forest and the last march of the Ents.

>Brutalization of more elves after the Mordorian formula, to create the orc army of the White Hand.

>Death of Theoden King.

>Purge of ineffectual Gondorian leadership; resurrection of a legitimate regime.

>The routed belligerants, Grima and Saruman, causing trouble wherever they can; petty victories for bitter consolation; mutual fall due to infighting.

>All Ringbearers beyond mortal recovery; the evil desire of the Ring does not end with the Ring, just like PTSD and kill-lust.

even if LOTR wasn't written like an economics or modern history textbook, it still follows IRL patterns.

Less poetry doesn't mean more realism.

[Anonymous No.22557352]

>>22557335
>>22556819

You’d better provide the real rational then, dumb conspiracy fags.

The USA is a mutt state it’s not capable of nationalism and it didn’t conquer or colonize Vietnam and instead absorbed a large number of them after the war

[Anonymous No.22557401]

>>22557352
It wasn't a nationalistic war per se but it utilized nationalistic propaganda heavily you brainwashed mutt.
No (((American))) war is/was about """democracy""", nobody alive today has lived in a functional democracy in their fucking lifetime.

[Anonymous No.22557602]

>>22557401
Ok well in the world where evidence matters the national security council and Kennedy engaged in conflict to contain communism and that is the case according to the historical evidence of internal and public utterances.

If you think the Vietnam war was an Irish nationalist war you go right ahead

[Anonymous No.22557752]

>>22557348
That's all fairy tale simplicty.

[Anonymous No.22557842]

>>22555262
propaganda is often true though. why would propagandizing truth be bad?

[Anonymous No.22557851]

>>22557842
The most effective lies are those of omission. Parse it

[Anonymous No.22557856]

>>22555262
propaganda is often true though. why would propagandizing truth be bad?

>>22557335
This is unironically true democracy (glad muttmerica lost btw)

[Anonymous No.22559037]

>>22557752
Then To Kill a Mockingbird, Catcher in the Rye and Lord of the Flies are also fairy-tale simple.

You want a textbook.

[Anonymous No.22559119]

>>22557752
What WOULD fit your conception would be Gulliver's Travels, or Dream of Red Chambers; an actual no-holds allegory, or a canon-tier text representative of a civilization.

[Anonymous No.22559124]

>>22555293
Kek based

[Anonymous No.22559529]

>>22556066
He likes Tolkien and only mentions him because retarded interviewers don’t know any other fantasy books. The whole Tolkien vs Martin ”rivalry” doesn’t exist besides in the minds of deranged /lit/ users

[Anonymous No.22559556]

>>22555262
Did he learn the true nature of war from a coffee shop poetry slam in uni?

[Anonymous No.22559567]

>>22555230
/thread

[Anonymous No.22559654]

>>22557352
It happened because the French whined about losing their colony and the American elites took that as an opportunity to have fun and waste some money (and proceeded to do so in what we call the Vietnam war)
That's all there is to it. Just the 1% fucking around because they have nothing better to do than send people to die and kill for nothing and laugh at them.

[Anonymous No.22559799]

>>22559556
Lol

[Anonymous No.22560477]

>>22555258
>muh cultural marxism everywhere
this conveyor belt is boring, you should punch the people around you for neglect.

>>22555220
he's correct but game of thrones is not much better on these fronts... then again i havent really read because it had no appeal to me and only watched up to season 3 ... and sandkings is his only book as far as i'm concerned.

>>22555230
>the Somme
millions survived this and wrote better things

>>22556074
>>22556066
>toooolkeem
uhao muh elves, uhaho muh wizarts

[Anonymous No.22561186]

>>22555230
This. The only things GURM understands better than Tolkien is food and procrastination.

[Anonymous No.22561239]

>>22555230
This. The only things GURM understands better than Tolkien are food and procrastination.

[Anonymous No.22561346]

Also obesity is a social construct

[Anonymous No.22561900]

>>22557602
>evidence matters
Shut the fuck up you golem.

[Anonymous No.22561927]

>>22555220
It's kind of bizarre and hypocritical to hear a civilian say this about a book written by a veteran; especially considering the main character can be interpreted as either committing suicide or becoming monk at the end
Martin's takes on Tolkien are so shallow and I wonder if he actually likes Lord of the Rings as much as he claims
It's like he barely bothers to understand any of the themes or they are just alien to him

[Anonymous No.22561938]

>>22561239
Tolkien's descriptions of food are comfier and he actually self-deprecated a lot about how slow his writing process is to the extent that I feel bad, he was working a full time job and caring for his sick son at the time when he wrote most of his self-satires about procrastination

[Anonymous No.22561951]

>>22559037
I have this theory that all the best books are fairy tale simple because its the most natural way to tell stories
That's why Tolkien is GOAT of fantasy, and Hemingway is GOAT of American literary stories

[Anonymous No.22561974]

>>22556066
I want to like GRRM but this particular quote is just really unpleasant; imagine telling a soldier that he doesn't understand war. Tolkien lost all his childhood friends to war and fought in the fucking Somme.
I have noticed a running trend that veteran writers refuse to describe gore as much as civilian writers who love their long descriptions of horror slashers' scene montages
I think it is actually because the veterans understand gore is not something gritty to enjoy in

[Anonymous No.22561976]

>>22561900
NTA but you are retarded and have no argument

[Anonymous No.22561995]

>>22555230
*sigh* Every thread is just fpbp now isn't it?

[Anonymous No.22562972]

>>22561927
>or they are just alien to him
I say this one. Same problem with Moorcuck.

[Anonymous No.22562990]

>>22555230
Damn right. Martin is a complete coward, and I really believe most of his criticisms against Tolkien are mere tantrums. Tolkien is someone he can't grasp and that dwarfs him even beyond the grave.

[Anonymous No.22563021]

>>22562990
I tried several times to make it through the first GoT book and just got bored with it. One thing that I found interesting was how many gaps he left in the story telling for the reader to fill in with their imagination.

[Anonymous No.22563036]

>>22555220
I'm pretty sure this was covered in the bible.

[Anonymous No.22563046]

>>22562972
A lot of civilian writers even of literary fiction or poems like to make their war fiction extra "grim and gory" to match something terrible they can't fathom but secretly yearn for in their boring lives.
Some of the grimmest most depressive modernist writers post-WWI were civies.
Then when I see actual veterans they refuse to write gore scenes in detail and try to focus on the hope because they want to leave the experiences behind for good
Compare Remarque's "Three Comrade" to T.S Elliot's "Wasteland"; both are grim but Three Comrades has so many moments of joyous friendship and decent heroic people trying to find love while Wasteland seems listless and bleak
Yet it was Remarque who was the actual WWI veteran
Same with Tolkien and the grimdark fantasy writers that came rolling after
I wish there was a paper on this topic

[Anonymous No.22563060]

He’s a fat neck beard and the things he writes are cringey, but he does write them pretty well. He did write the only really remarkable medieval-fantasy epic of our era.

[Anonymous No.22563593]

>>22561976
Are Iran's WMDs or Assad's gas in the room with us now anon?

[Anonymous No.22563893]

>>22555220
>Tolkien fights in WW1, creates genre
>Fat nigger dodges draft, huddles in Tolkien's shadow, excretes this nonsense
>ledditors think it's deep

[Anonymous No.22563979]

>>22563060
>He did write the only really remarkable medieval-fantasy epic of our era.
>ASoIaF
INFERIOR to Traitor Son Cycle.

[Anonymous No.22563984]

>>22561927
Tolkien was behind enemy lines most of the time

[Anonymous No.22563993]

[Anonymous No.22564047]

>>22563993
lol. This dumpster fire of a thread was worth it for this single post.

[Anonymous No.22564167]

>>22555230
I'll take someone with no military brainwashing any day over le experienced veteran

[Anonymous No.22564468]

>>22564047
>>22563993
It's funny because the message system is funny, but Elden Ring and fromshit are completely trash and so is this thread.

[Anonymous No.22564494]

>>22564167
Kill yourself retard. The fat commie fuck will never reach Tolkien's level.

[Anonymous No.22565185]

>>22564167
That would be an argument if the issue at hand was something along the lines "is war justified or not" because a career soldier might say the thing that gives him a job is justified.
But the question is whether a soldier or a civilian is more capable of speaking about the consequences that war has on people, and whether the stories of soldiers truly show the consequences
The soldier who experienced war first hand has the upper hand.
It's like an SJW writing about the experience of the American Indian versus a girl on the reserve. The SJW would turn up the sad music and the real girl confesses small unsavoury details about herself as a person and whines about the elders being corrupt
The SJW then whines too, but because the real Native didn't portray herself according to her expectation

[Anonymous No.22565516]

>>22564494
I also like Tolkien better, I absolutely hate GOT but the argument that a person with military experience has more authority to write fiction about war than one without it seems retarded to me.
>>22565185
All right fair point. Since we're discussing it seriously, I think it depends on the sensibility and talent of each individual case. There could be a soldier who lived his whole life in the heat of battle and just can't write a single word about it and maybe some kid far away in another country, just through imagination might take the reader to epic battles and adventures in arms. In Tolkien's particular case both of these characters merged.

[Anonymous No.22565613]

>>22565516
Yeah, I know not everyone can write about their experiences; the person acting like his imagination is superior to that of the lived experience when the soldier/person can actually write is kind of off-puttingly arrogant though

[Anonymous No.22565640]

>Sunset found her...

[Anonymous No.22565661]

>>22565640
Is it /lit/ to start a chapter with a character pooping themselves

[Anonymous No.22565760]

>>22565613
>the person acting like his imagination is superior to that of the lived experience
Although what you say can be true for many cases, I also know that you've had dreams so vivid that when you wake up from them, reality seems kind of pale and dull. Don't underestimate the power of imagination.

[Anonymous No.22565776]

>>22555220
You guys debase yourself by reading this subhuman tranny knights and fairies zogslop

I don’t even care if you’re fashy, you should be tortured and then killed for reading this trash

[Anonymous No.22565784]

>>22565516
>I also like Tolkien better, I absolutely hate GOT but the argument that a person with military experience has more authority to write fiction about war than one without it seems retarded to me.

You are so fucking stupid. Why not just post on Reddit? Like what do you get out of being a gigantic tranny retard on 4chan? You think it makes you edgy? Repeat what you just said to yourself then go get a shotgun and blow your brains out

[Anonymous No.22565813]

why doesn't any popular author write about the consequences of usury? it's always some other crime or atrocity, but never debt slavery.

[Anonymous No.22565849]

>>22565760
That's a pretty silly argument; I can have a dream about being a soldier but that comes from hearing an actual soldier speak or reading his work if I myself have never been a soldier usually
I certainly can't talk about the consequences that this nightmare had on my life to a man who actually experienced it and say that his portrayal of his real experience is invalid
To be more crude, who would you ask for dating advice, the guy who is married and a player in his youth or a virgin who suffers erotic dreams

[Anonymous No.22565863]

>>22565813
Usury is more the domain of literary fiction because literary fiction is about norms being depressed

[Anonymous No.22565882]

>>22565849
I'm not invalidating experience, since dreams are also experiences in my book. Also, you're being too extreme.
>that comes from hearing an actual soldier speak or reading his work if I myself have never been a soldier usually...
Of course, but still the way you experience and assimilate that information and relive it in your imagination is 100% authentic.
>who would you ask for dating advice, the guy who is married and a player in his youth or a virgin who suffers erotic dreams?
As I already mentioned about three times, it depends. What makes you think I'd ask anyone for dating advice in the first place? In the second place, I've seen the married guy/player in his youth go "gee bro idk, I guess they just jump all over me" when asked about their secret to succeed with women while I've also seen inexperience virgins write the most compelling romantic stories.

Take Jane Austen as an example, most of her input was gossip but she masterfully crafted it and turned it into an accurate and humourous portrait of her zeitgeist.

[Anonymous No.22565886]

>>22565784
Even if I did all of that, your argument is still retarded

[Anonymous No.22565900]

>>22565882
The issue is not that dreams can't count as inspiration; most artists use dreams and if the author was using his nightmares to create more convincing horror scenes all power to him.
The issue is that Martin is talking about consequences of war on a person's psyche and community
The nightmare ends when Martin wakes up so all of his "rational consequences" are just what he assumes might happen; but Tolkien, C.S Lewis and Dunsany actually saw people die and lived in post-war post-bombing Europe
Martin's arrogance lies in the fact that he thinks he knows better than a person who lived through that trauma and that is what is off-putting

[Anonymous No.22565918]

>>22565900
I completely agree with that. Martin's case of chronic bullshitting is beyond help.

[Anonymous No.22565952]

>>22565918
It's partially the issue of the SJW and the Indian reservation girl. The SJW is startled by the Indian reservation girl honesty about the shamans being quacks and civies are startled when veterans end their book with "and then they all moved on from the trauma"
It could also be the fact that American war vets are the most suicidal in the world so Americans find that least realistic, despite the many examples to the contrary