Now that the dust has settled, who was right here?

[Anonymous No.22501457]

>When you come to look into this argument from design, it is a most astonishing thing that people can believe that this world, with all the things that are in it, with all its defects, should be the best that omnipotence and omniscience has been able to produce in millions of years. I really cannot believe it. Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku-Klux-Klan or the Fascists?

-Bertram Russell, “Why I am Not a Christian”

>To the believer in Islam, human power falls into two categories: a rightly-guided power that recognizes God and abides by His directions, and an arrogant, rebellious one that does not admit to God’s sovereignty and authority. A Muslim is required to support and endorse the former, no matter how weak or disadvantaged it may be, and to reject and oppose the latter, regardless of its strength or dominance. The Qur’ān says: “Many a small band, by the grace of God, has vanquished a large one.” (2: 249) Such victory of the apparently weaker host could only be achieved when it relies on God, the source of all power.

-Sayyid Qutb, Under the Shade of the Quran

[Anonymous No.22501529]

>>22501457
Russell but Ku-Klux-Klan is based

[Anonymous No.22501542]

>>22501457
Qutb in his early political days was a liberal Muslim. Nasser's regime brutalizing him and his friends is what turned him into an Islamist.
There are strange insights in his work like how American society has no issue wasting so much resources on fucking lawns.
Problem is with most reactionary modernists is that while they can provide plenty of good critiques of modern society, their solutions are either unviable or worse.

[Anonymous No.22501543]

nobody struggles with the "problem of evil" aside from westoids and christcucks. tens of thousands of Muslims just died from natural disasters in Morocco and Libya and they will probably emerge even stronger in faith.

[Anonymous No.22501544]

>>22501457
>the world is bad because people who disagree with me exist
The degree of Russell's brainlettitude never ceases to astonish me.

[Anonymous No.22501565]

>>22501543
The Libyan parliament on the side the flood happened just issued a statement saying, in explanation of the flood, “It was the will of Allah, and His decree is impossible to resist.”

[Anonymous No.22501601]

From physiognomy alone I can see that bertrand is correct

[Anonymous No.22501798]

>>22501457
Egyptian Qutbism, together with Saudi Wahhabism and Afghan Taliban Takfirism, are as heterodox as the Omani Ibadis. So this is the power of Islam: Neo-Kharjirites, and the rest are post-Islamic pan-Arabs and pan-Turks, and a ton of Shiite and post-Shiite sects, and then a bunch of also post-Islamic little sects like the Druze and Yazidis and Baha'is and Ahmadis, plus some ancient Jews an Christians, and the new Israelis that came back. The entire Middle East is a pot of heresy, not a single part of it is true Muslim.

[Anonymous No.22501803]

>>22501798
>umm sweaty true Islam is when you dance with a microphone and a green turban, Ghazali was a whacky takfiri

[Anonymous No.22501824]

>>22501803
True Islam is when you worship a false spirit claiming to be Yahweh but who commits blasphemies even on the temple mount against Jesus and his Father (FATHER) as foretold in 2 Thessalonians 2, and who will raise up a dabbat al-ard or beast of the earth (see Revelation 13) to give a mouth and eyes to the Black Stone his baetylus to speak against those who do not kiss it or worship him. Your religion is literally Satanism. And your Dajjal is the real Jesus, who will stand on the ocean, and the Jews will accept him, but your Jesus descends in Damascus and was never crucified and has no wounds on his hands. You know you are a Satanist right? It's just EVEN by your own religion's lights, all the current Muslims in the Middle East aren't even good Muslims. Yeah. You're worse than a Satanist at that point. Can't even do the Islam part right.

[Anonymous No.22501827]

>>22501824
Jesus is going to have one eye and make the Jews rulers of the world, eh?

[Anonymous No.22502213]

>>22501827
>one eye
No. But he will have holes in his hands and feet and a wound on his side. Your "one eye" thing is just a way that your false God wants to identify our Jesus as his Dajjal: he has wounds on his hands, and will show them to the Jews. It's in the Book of Zechariah, chapter 12, then in chapter 14, they accept him. As you people say Dajjal will be accepted by Jews. But in the New Testament it says Jesus will come dressed in red, in the Book of Revelation. So does Zechariah say the same, in the Old Testament, that Yahweh himself (because for Christians Jesus IS Jehovah) will wear red and appear pierced, and identify Jews as they who pierced him. This is in Zechariah. But our New Testament says it is SATAN who raises up dabbat al-ard, and SATAN who gives power to the Black Stone to speak with eyes and a mouth, and SATAN who raises up the spirit of antichrist to sit on the temple mount saying he is the God of Abraham and saying he has no Son and is no Father. And it is in our Bible, Old Testament AND New Testament, and your Satan inverted everything. Our Bible says if an angel from heaven teaches another Jesus, another gospel, let him be accursed. And the mark 666 in Greek looks like picrel in our Bible manuscripts. It is Allah's name in Arabic, isn't it? Your Jesus has no wounds, descends with yellow robes, not red. You know either you or we are Satanic, but we came first. Islam is provably Satanic. Prove me wrong?

[Anonymous No.22502269]

>>22502213
I don't why you think the Messiah in Islam (who will be identified as Jesus unlike the antichrist) will claim to be God.

Allah's name in Arabic is ٱللَّٰه. I don't know what you posted is. I don't see any Arabic letter there.

The color of robes Jesus descends in is not specified.

[Anonymous No.22502404]

>>22501457
why are you comparing some hysterical savage screaming in the streets about his barbaric religion to one of the finest minds of his time?

[Anonymous No.22502429]

>>22501542
>Problem is with most reactionary modernists is that while they can provide plenty of good critiques of modern society
They are all shit. Every single one of them.

[Anonymous No.22502456]

>>22501544
the amount of seething and moaning by christoids and religionists every time Russel's name is brought up will never not be funny

[Anonymous No.22502776]

>>22501457
>Do you think that, if you were granted omnipotence and omniscience and millions of years in which to perfect your world, you could produce nothing better than the Ku-Klux-Klan or the Fascists?
Fedora tippers love him because he speaks to their pride.

[Anonymous No.22503193]

>>22502269
>I don't why you think the Messiah in Islam (who will be identified as Jesus unlike the antichrist) will claim to be God.
Not YOUR Jesus but OUR Jesus will. AKA what you call the "Dajjal". Your Jesus doesn't have wounds in his hands or feet or side, wears yellow rather than red, descends in Damascus rather than on Mount Olivet in Jerusalem. Our Jesus is accepted as Messiah by the Jews, the Old Testament says this and so does the New Testament. But your hadith say it is Dajjal who gets accepted as Messiah by Jews, while your Jesus wearing yellow submits to the Mahdi instead.
>I don't know what you posted is
It's greek for 666. Rotate it and then flip it and the last two letters plus the extra marks are ٱللَّٰه. The word just means God in Arabic, I have no problem with it. But John was seeing in a vision that the Beast would have a mark for his name, and it was going to be the Arabic word for God (namely, Allah).

[Anonymous No.22503196]

>>22501457
Bertrand Russell should've realised that, just as he might be wrong to die for his beliefs, he might equally be wrong to not die for his beliefs.

[Anonymous No.22503201]

>>22501544
>reduced to ruble
>hello says
>your welcome
It had potential, I guess.

[Anonymous No.22503205]

>>22501457
Qutb changed the world permanently, perhaps more than any other 20th century intellectual. his ideological descendants are out there doing earth-shattering things with absolute assurance that they're completely in the right. nobody's ever been inspired by Russel to do anything important

[Anonymous No.22503214]

>>22503193
The letters of Allah are ا ل ل ه (read from right to left, A L L H)

Those letters look nothing like that

[Anonymous No.22503224]

>>22501457
>it's astonishing how many people believe this *retarded headcanon that has nothing to do with any established theology*
It's amazing how much, no matter their intelligence, militant atheism clouds a person's thinking.

[Anonymous No.22503256]

>>22503214
I love how you ignore the way the hadith and Quran teach inversions of everything else I say is in our Bible to hyperfocus on why this one minor thing must be wrong. As if that would disprove everything else.

[Anonymous No.22503266]

>>22503256
I’ve read Revelation and it says Babylon is the city of the crucifixion (Jerusalem)

[Anonymous No.22503273]

>>22503256
666 is a reference to nero dude how do ppl not know this

[Anonymous No.22503308]

>>22501565
What a joyful thing to read. The Libyan Parliament, not a religious body of scholars is prompted to make that statement.

[Anonymous No.22503577]

>>22501798
No Real Scotsman fallacy. In reality there is something wrong about the culture, making civilised discussion impossible.

[Anonymous No.22503584]

Both of them are in hell.

[Anonymous No.22503599]

>>22501457
>God doesn't real because evil exists
why do atheists always act like they're the first to discover the problem of evil?

[Anonymous No.22503602]

>>22503205
It's much easier to destroy than to create. Qutb and his followers turning the clock back 1000 years is just a form of entropy. A child with a nuclear bomb could likewise have a big impact on the world.

[Anonymous No.22503633]

>>22501543
Almost no Christians struggle with the problem of evil either it's just fedoras who aren't capable of thinking abstractly for five minutes.

[Anonymous No.22503781]

Why does Russell assume that God wants the universe to be perfect as soon as possible?
Why does Russell assume that God, who is atemporal, cares that the universe is imperfect for millions of years?
Why does Russell assume that God is responsible for the KKK and fascism?
For someone who supposedly read Augustine, he assumes a lot of dumb shit.

[Anonymous No.22503845]

>>22502456
I'm sure you think posting stuff like picrel is as intelligent as Russell would have been.

[Anonymous No.22504311]

>>22503196
I guess he thought that dying almost never solves anything.

[Anonymous No.22504574]

>>22504311
The cross is foolish to the wise.

[Anonymous No.22504623]

>>22503781
He’s also the ‘rediscoverer’ of Liebnitz. How can he be like he is? I don’t get it

[Anonymous No.22504948]

>>22501457
Qutb would probably say Russell's worldview is too mechanical. He was a literary critic and a poet and he'd just point out that imperfection highlights beauty and since humans have free will, God can't be responsible. Why did Tolkien create a world of conflict and war instead of making his fantasy land literally perfect? Paradise on earth would be boring.

>>22501543
Probably because the problem of evil is less of an issue for Muslims. Classic Islamic theology was pantheistic or panentheistic and they had no problems saying God created evil too and there's nothing wrong with that.

>>22501542
Qutb believed human freedom was sacred and so any attempt to exercise authority over it was blasphemy and had to be resisted by force if necessary, no self-respecting reactionary believes this. There are liberals and feminists in the Muslim world who look up to him for this. Amina Wudud (the leader of the woke Muslims in America) cites Qutb multiple times as do jihadists. Qutb was really a radical Islamic modernist trying to revitalize ancient values to deal with modern problems who became more and more radical and quasi-anarchist under Nasser's dictatorship. He's roughly comparable to the Critical Buddhism movement, except Hakamaya and Matsumoto wrote in a stable flourishing Japan whereas Qutb was imprisoned and tortured under a brutal dictator.

[Anonymous No.22504955]

>>22504948
He was militant-Amish-futurist but for Islam, and this covers a lot of bases

[Anonymous No.22504959]

Russell: soulless
Qutb: SOVL

[Anonymous No.22504964]

>>22504948
you are right about Qutb, his reputation as "the father of jihadism" or whatever is just a bunch of glowie bullshit, in fact most perceptions of Islamic terrorism is glowie propaganda that makes zero sense when you consider the substance of these Islamic movements and historical figures like Qutb and Ibn Taymiyyah

[Anonymous No.22504965]

>>22504955
He really wasn't. Qutb had no issue with modern technology. He wasn't against radio or TV or electric. He hated cinema becuase he thought it was trashy, but admitted he loved Gone with the Wind. His criticisms of American life is essentially that American suburbia is soulless, consumerist and life is meaningless and boring, not that lawn mowers are bad. There's a lot of cultural prejudice mixed into it (American girls are lustful and dumb etc.) but his no more Amish than Beatnik writers of the time.

[Anonymous No.22504971]

>>22504965
>American girls are lustful and dumb
This is true btw

[Anonymous No.22504972]

>>22501542
islam is as bad as lgbt faggotry
lgbt fags advocate for the mutilation and chemical castrations of teen boys and teen girls.
islam legalizes the abuse [including sexual abuse] against women and children.
islam also legalizes slavery. a muslim can buy or [during wartime] capture a non-muslim child and rape it or use it anyway he wants to satisfy his sexual desire.
All this is perfectly legal in islam.

[Anonymous No.22504978]

>>22504948
>Qutb believed human freedom was sacred
wtf are on about?
slavery is legal in islam

[Anonymous No.22504981]

>>22501457
Rusell pretty fucking obviously

[Anonymous No.22505217]

>>22504964
Liberals needed a scapegoat after 9/11 so they pinned it all on Qutb. Instead of inferring the obvious from history and geopolitics, they boiled it all down to evil people believing in evil ideology did evil thing. Glowies will have you believe Qutb was a pussy starved incel autist who became a raging religious fanatic because a white girl touched him and that's the essential motivation for all non-liberals, horniness and sexual frustration.

>>22501798
>The entire Middle East is a pot of heresy, not a single part of it is true Muslim
Sounds like something Qutb would say.

>>22504978
Qutb wasn't a guy who accepted the authority of Islamic law uncritically. He argues that there hasn't been an Islamic society since the 7th century. He saw slavery as unacceptable but saw it as something the Prophet intended to phase out, the same view as Rida and Muhammad Abduh. What makes Qutb unusual is the way he portrays religion as a vehicle for radical quasi-anarchist human freedom and that's probably why he appeals to so many people.

[Anonymous No.22505830]

>>22501457
Russell is a nobody but Qutb is one of the most controversial and banned writers ever. He's like De Sade for fanatcis. The ultimate forbidden fruit. Decades for now people will read that stuff out of morbid curiosity. There'll be threads on lit about it just like Lolita or the commie manifesto. Edgy teens will read him. Girls will scratch his name into their arms. Russell is just a dry academic with zero pop culture value. Who'll care about that old goat decades from now? I mean who'd you rather be? Evil and forbidden or a boring bookworm? Evil is just better.

[Anonymous No.22505969]

>>22501542
>There are strange insights in his work like how American society has no issue wasting so much resources on fucking lawns.
This is one of the most frequently made criticisms of American society there is. Unless he was the first person to say this, it's not a particularly impressive statement.

[Anonymous No.22505994]

>>22504965
That’s why I said futurist. Qutb was actually pro technology and said the problem was not technology but that it was used in the service of atheism instead of the sake of God. But he was critical of technology detached from Goe which says turns men into machines

[Anonymous No.22505997]

>>22505969
>French king's and nobility used to do it to specifically show off how wealthy they are
>American suburban middle class, quite possibly the wealthiest middle class in history, wants to flaunt their newfound wealth brought on by rapid economic growth
It's not exactly some big fucking mystery.
>most complained about aspect of American society
Lol wtf

[Anonymous No.22506016]

>>22505997
There's plenty of criticism of American lawns, lawn culture, what lawns represent, and the amount of resources used to maintain them. this isn't a particularly new or rare thing.

[Anonymous No.22506027]

>>22506016
I mean compared to literally every other aspect of America that euros seethe about constantly I can't imagine it's even in the top 100. Then again if I was forced into some shitty commie block or some tiny little Euro apartment and even poor Americans had large houses with huge lawns I'd be seething too I guess.

[Anonymous No.22506036]

>>22504964
There were a lot of incentives to come Islamic thinkers to pin the problems with the modern Islamic world on specific figures. One of the new Atheists (I think it was Neil Degrasse Tyson) claimed that the Islamic golden age ended because Al-Ghazali told everyone the god wanted them to be dumb. It was a shameful display of ignorance, and I say that as someone who genuinely hates medieval philosophy.

[Anonymous No.22506053]

>>22506036
Islam’s decline was because of the Mongols

[Anonymous No.22506125]

>>22505994
Futurism was a movement that was pro-war, pro-car, pro-high technology and didn't like humanism. Qutb complained about people's obsessions with cars, hated nukes, feared technology was ruining lives and turning people into slaves, all things futurists promoted.

>>22506036
The irony is al-Ghazzali was one of the major proponents of Avicennan logic, despite trying to demolish Avicenna's physics. He tried to make the study of logic mandatory.

>>22506053
Not really, some of the most famous Muslim scholars worked under the Mongols Ilkhans, even under Hulagu. al-Tusi who was a major mathematician, theologian, astronomer and philosopher, the great poets Sheikh Sadi, Rumi and Hafiz Shirazi lived during the Mongol period. Sayyid Sharif Jurjani and al-Iji, both masters of grammar and logic whose books are still studied today. The reality is that in the late 1700s, Europe and most of Asia were pretty neck and neck. The 19th century is where decline happens. Untill the 1830s, Asia was more prosperous and lucrative economically than Western countries. There's even some travel writings of two Iranian madrasah students who travelled to Europe and were shown around Oxford, only to complain the professors had a poor grasp of math and logic.

[Anonymous No.22506210]

>>22504948
There is a difference between being a bog standard reactionary like Maistre and reactionary modernism. Fascism fused a rejection of Enlightenment ideals with the concept of the nation state (invented by absolute monarchs and Enlightenment thinkers) and modern science and technology. Likewise Islamists like Qutb, Banna, and Rida fused Islamic rejection of secular modernity (and often rejection of the nation state as well) with the concepts of modern constitutional governance unlike old school decentralized feudalistic Islamic states (Islamists that want to abolish nation states for a caliphate often are willing to weaponize the tools of nation states, much like how Marxism-Leninism believed authoritarian states could result in the creation of communist utopia)
I don't like Qutb,Ghazali,or Taymiyyah, but all of these are quite overhated. Same with Wahabhism, yes Wahab pioneered Salafi jihadism before the 20th century, but people often exaggerate his influence.

[Anonymous No.22506216]

>>22506125
Aristolean physics was nonsense compared to modern physics. Ghazali's critiques arguably helped pave the way for the Enlightenment deconstructing Aristotlean science.

[Anonymous No.22506226]

>>22506036
The Mutazilas were even more extreme than orthodox Islamic theology back then in many ways. They believed a sinner who sins out of ignorance was just as bad as those who sin while knowing it was a sin.
New Atheists, "proud exmuslim" types (not ordinary secular apostates but those similar to New Atheist pseuds in that they revolve their worldview and personality around opposing Islam and Muslims to the point of euphoric smugness), and liberal reformists who make them out into being proto-liberal types are extremely ignorant. Then again, the first two champion myths like "Christianity caused the Dark Ages" and "Galileo was arrested for his scientific discoveries"

[Anonymous No.22506244]

>>22501824
>>22502213
abrahamism is so ridiculous it's unreal
absolute state of jew worshipers

[Anonymous No.22506251]

>>22506210
Reactionary is just a term of insult. It means nothing and signifies no position other than the fact that the author in question is disliked by secular liberals, especially religious thinkers and even pomos. Rida, Banna, and Qutb rejected secularism, but they didn't reject modernity. Like al-Afghani, all of them saw modernity as something that was originally Islamic but lost as the Muslim community moved further away from the Salaf. How integral is secularism to modernity anyway? The very concept of "religion" as a distinct sphere of life seperate from politics, culture, or science is itself a modern Enlightenment idea. To argue for a religious state or a religious society is modern position. Islamists aren't simple rejectionists. There's a whole spectrum of Islamist thought, from those who want a secular liberal state, those who want a religious state, others like Qutb seem to imply no state is acceptable at all. Modernity isn't one thing. There are many different takes on modernity. Chinese modernity is different to Japanese modernity, different to Indian modernity. All of these are spins. Just because someone's vision of modernity differs from whatever is current in the West doesn't make them a reactionary modernist or whatever boogeyman label people are using now.

[Anonymous No.22506253]

>>22506210
Muslim states were never feudalist.

[Anonymous No.22506265]

>>22506253
A lot of medievalists don't use the word "feudal" anymore. a lot of historians like susan reynolds or carl stephenson claim the idea of "feudalism" is conveniant Enlightenment era myth used to denigrate the past.

[Anonymous No.22506328]

>>22501457
>Bertrand Russell estimated his own IQ as 180
Only one of the many reason Russell wan an insufferable nepo baby who should have been suffocated in his crib

[Anonymous No.22506329]

>>22501457
Problem for Qutb is that Sunni Islam is becoming less and less relevant while atheism, secularism, and Christianity are growing. That's all thanks to an intellectual defecit. Sunni Muslims don't have serious intellectuals to argue their case anymore. Christians can adapt to a secular world because their idea of faith is simply belief and inner conviction, as long as you have faith in Christ your actions don't matter as long as you avoid sin and repent. Islam is orthopraxic. It's all about correct behavior. It's too overbearing for a modern society that's obsessed with freedom. Qutb believed Islam makes people free. But having to pray 5 times a day, avoid certain foods, no premarital sex etc. all clashes with modern cultures idea of freedom which is just do what you want because nothing matters.

[Anonymous No.22506340]

>>22503602
the Taliban created a flourishing and virtuous Afghanistan before the US destroyed it

[Anonymous No.22506347]

>>22501457
Russell, by a colossal margin: One would have to be a cortex amputee to perform like a typical kamikazee.

[Anonymous No.22506358]

>>22506329
Christianity is collapsing in the West (in Western Europe practicing Christianity is almost extinct), and even outside the West it is suffering a gradual decline with the exception of Africa (Argentina legalized abortion,Orthodox Hungarians and Russians are nonpracticing,etc).
With the exception of Western diaspora,Lebanon,Turkey, and Shia countries like Iran and Azerbijan, most of the Islamic world is still socially conservative and religious. I do think Islamism is on its way out but it won't be replaced by secular liberalism in the Islamic world. Remember that Islamic conservatism predates the 1800s Islamist movement, Islamic conservatism will likely adapt.
Haqiqatjou and his cronies are loons but this is a good article.
https://muslimskeptic.com/2023/05/31/arab-barometer-director/
Unless secularists/atheists can provide an antidote to the issues that allowed Islamism to become popular in the first place (shitty regimes, most albeit not all secular, that are either brutal and/or incompetent, economic and social dysfunction such as inability to get a woman for young men,poverty and lack of opportunities for the lower/middle class, and of course Western/non-Western imperialism in the Islamic world) the Islamic world won't secularize.
Most modern day secularists/antitheists of Islamic world are too arrogant and castrated (they often have a weird inferiority complex toward Westerners and often Israelis too) to provide antidotes. Unlike old school commies and secular nationalists whose attempts at antidotes were largely failures (except a few like Ataturk) but at least they tried.

[Anonymous No.22506360]

>>22506329
>Sunni Islam is becoming less and less relevant
>Sunni Muslims don't have serious intellectuals to argue their case anymore.
Statistically and factually incorrect. I've witnessed a multitude of Muslims fearlessly taking 'dawah' to the streets and dominating online platforms, engaging in countless debates. These Muslim figures often have hundreds of thousands of followers, and their content reaches millions of viewers. The same cannot be said for Christians.

[Anonymous No.22506378]

>>22504981
Agreed. Whatever the risks usual to war, it's grotesque to embrace suicide.

[Anonymous No.22506384]

>>22506358
I forgot to include ex-Soviet/Yugoslav Muslim states as secularized (with the exception of Afghanistan for obvious reasons), but point still stands

[Anonymous No.22506400]

>>22506358
Christianity is declining but Christians can adapt. You can be a secular normal American and still identify as a Christian. You can go shopping, drink, get a girlfriend, never go to church and there are theologians who think thats fine because its your faith in Christ thats important. Because Islam restricts what you can and can't do with your body, even this milktoast secular liberal Protestant individualism is impossible. It makes Islam undesirable to modern young people who just want to do whatever they want and live a materialistic lifestyle.

>>22506360
Those guys aren't serious intellectuals. Look at someone like Charles Taylor, Emmanuel Levinas, Jean Luc-Marion or John D Caputo or even atheist Christians like Zizek. Qutb was an Islamic intellectual trying to address modern problems with Islam. Today's Islamic intellectuals and street preachers are more focused on one upping nonbelievers in apologetics or their trying to make Islam modern or rebutt extremists, implying its already inferior and needs to change. Qutb came from an era where there were Muslim idealogues and theorists who could confidently argue the religion was relevant to modern life and criticize modernity. There's no one like that today. The closest are the odd followers of Guenon like Sayyid Hossein Nasr who really isn't that impressive.

Islam has been intellectually pidgeonholed. The persecution of people like Qutb had the horrible effect of killing off or dissuading an entire religion's intellectual class or refocusing efforts onto reforming Islam. Note, Christian thinkers like Luc-Marion never talk about reforming Christianity. Their too busy focusing on actual theology rather than schilling to liberals.

[Anonymous No.22506432]

>>22506400
>It makes Islam undesirable to modern young people who just want to do whatever they want and live a materialistic lifestyle.
There are people who have embraced Islam because they grew tired of the soulless, materialistic world of the liberal West too.
>Those guys aren't serious intellectuals.
Some of them have a genuine intellectual background. However, the prevailing trend appears to involve addressing misconceptions that people have about Islam due to the religion facing criticism from every directions. They're breaking down complex problems and making them more accessible to the general public because people often ask fundamental questions, such as why it makes sense to believe in one God and how everyone possesses inner goodness (fitra). As a result, many people have embraced Islam because of these efforts.

[Anonymous No.22506482]

>>22506432
Perhaps it will win over some people here or there. But it won't overcome the tidal wave that secularization and liberal consumerism bring. If you look at Muslim countries that have a high degree of development, where there's a materialist consumer culture, the number of identifying Muslims and religious among young people has shrunk. In Tunisia and Turkey, young people are about as irreligious as youth in America. But in America, there are also a good chunk of youth, even woke youth, who identify as religious Protestant Christians or Buddhists or some type of new age bullshit. All of these traditions have serious intellectuals. Sunni Islam doesn't have that anymore. Just preachers. No real philosophers or theologians. Even in the Arab world, the philosophers there are obsessed with reconciling Islam with Enlightenment modernity, while their counterparts in the West embrace postmodernity and criticize modernism and liberalism. Unless Muslims have intellectuals willing to confidently put forward unique ideas that deal with contemporary issues beyond apologetics and reconciliatory bullshit, the religion will wane in relevance.

Look in America it's not uncommon for pornstars and prostitues to become evangelical Christians. Because Christianity's prioritization of faith and forgiveness through Christ as overriding any bodily sin is very appealing. A lot of addicts become Christians in the same way. Could they have become Muslims? I don't think so. It's become this aimless religion that doesn't really have a place anymore. Women don't want to wear headscarves, they want free choice. Men don't want to pray 5 times a day and save themselves from marriage. I'm not exonerating modern life, I'm just saying 21st century society isn't fit for Islam. That's not Islam's fault. It's just the religion the West has been trying to destroy for two decades and this is the result. It's become ostracized.

[Anonymous No.22506496]

>>22506400
Islamist twitter is filled with weebs and gamers; most conservative Muslims are just as materialist as Westerners. With some exceptions (Iranian and Turkish secularists are fanatically anti-Islam/Muslim/Arab,laicitists that are either open or crypto-atheist,commies,crypto-atheist "reformist" frauds like Tawhidi and Maajid Nawaz etc) most people of Muslim background in the Islamic world that are secular and or liberal consider themselves to be Muslim (Malala,Rashida Tlaib,Sadiq Khan,Mohammad Jibran Nasir,etc).

>Christianity is declining but Christians can adapt. You can be a secular normal American and still identify as a Christian. You can go shopping, drink, get a girlfriend, never go to church and there are theologians who think thats fine because its your faith in Christ thats important. Because Islam restricts what you can and can't do with your body, even this milktoast secular liberal Protestant individualism is impossible. It makes Islam undesirable to modern young people who just want to do whatever they want and live a materialistic lifestyle

The normalization of this type of non-practicing secularized lifestyle amongst Christians has lead to the death of practicing,genuine Christianity (and thus Christianity in general) in the West and elsewhere. In France, there are more practicing Muslims than Christians for instance even though most French-people are nominal/nonpracticing Catholic (Marine ditched much of her fathers anti-lgbt and traditionalist rhetoric,and Zemmour is a nonreligious Jewish adulterer). Secularized Christianity is a dying one, a malignant adaptation if anything. For all its failings (the secularization of Iran for instance), I think Islam/conservative Islam will hold out much longer than Christianity.

[Anonymous No.22506506]

>>22506482
You are really out of touch. The most Muslim populated countries are Indonesia and Malaysia and they are developing rapidly in tangent with a youth that is far more Islamist than their elders. Not only is hijab spreading, women are veiling their faces at a rate historically unseen in those countries before

[Anonymous No.22506524]

>>22506496
Nietzsche's death of God applies to Islam too. The advance of a nihilistic mechanical worldview, industrial capitalism, and secular liberalism will erode Islam. Latin Christianity was a totalitarian religion and it was gradually chipped away. I can see Islam ending up like Catholicism. Where there's a period of strength and religious fervor and then within a few decades it begins crumbling away and you get paper Muslims the way you get lapsed Catholics.

[Anonymous No.22506618]

>>22506358
>Christianity is collapsing
It's amazing how many times that has been thought/said throughout history

[Anonymous No.22506643]

>>22506432
>Some of them have a genuine intellectual background. However, the prevailing trend appears to involve addressing misconceptions that people have about Islam due to the religion facing criticism from every directions.
And these guys put their Harvard educations to use to do pedophilia apologetics.

[Anonymous No.22506677]

>>22506358
Cultural "Christianity" is nothing new. Theologians have talked for centuries about people who embrace every sin imaginable while thinking themselves Christians by virtue of their baptism.

[Anonymous No.22506702]

>>22506643
Go on and justify underage marriages in the bible.

[Anonymous No.22506707]

>>22506618
It very much is collapsing in the west (and slowly declining in most of the world) unless you consider sleepy joe (who supports abortion and lgbt despite being Catholic), trump (who cheated on his wives with porn stars and such),pro gay anglicans,and woke pastors to be the champions of Christian tradition.
Christianity that accepts enlightenment liberal capitalist democracy leads to a bastardized nonpracticing christianity, and that leads to atheism. This applies to many western right wing christians considering most of them endorse liberal capitalist democracy even though it eventually results in their own secularization (Trump lives a nonreligious lifestyle yet is the idol of the Western populist right.)
Even western christian pundits acknowledge the decline
https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/trust/archive/winter-2023/what-is-the-future-of-religion-in-america#:~:text=In%20all%20the%20scenarios%2C%20Christianity's,%25%20and%2035%25%20by%202070.
https://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2022/september/christian-decline-inexorable-nones-rise-pew-study.html

[Anonymous No.22506733]

>>22506702
I don't care about defending the bible. Anyone using it to justify institutionalizing the rape of children is just as much a piece of garbage as anyone using Islamic works to do it.

[Anonymous No.22506736]

>>22506677
True, but society was far more religious then than now. There are tons of Muslims that sin and/or live nonreligious lifestyles yet most Muslim countries have higher religiousity rates.

[Anonymous No.22506775]

>>22506358
Most normies don't seem to understand that modern Muslims are arguably more socially conservative than their ancestors. Islam has not waned at all when you really look at how many people are practicing, if anything it grew tremendously in the late 20th century thanks to successful revivalist movements and Third Worldist ideology. It remains uncertain if there will ever be a truly modern Islamic State (Saudis are secularizing after years of being considered the most religious, other countries like Pakistan are incompetent) but in terms of people simply adhering to Islam it's probably the most popular religion in the world. Christians have larger numbers but fewer daily practitioners. Materially Christianity has been obsolete since WW1

[Anonymous No.22506793]

>>22506400
>Christians can adapt. You can be a secular normal American and still identify as a Christian. You can go shopping, drink, get a girlfriend, never go to church and there are theologians who think thats fine because its your faith in Christ thats important.
You're an idiot. This isn't Christianity. A secularized zombie version of a religion where you don't have to practice at all is not an example of the actual religion, it's the absence of religion. Muslims have a strict belief in harmonizing spiritual beliefs and material affairs. Most Christians have abandoned both. I'm not sure how you're twisting the decline of Christianity into some kind of argument that it's actually thriving more than Islam when reality has clearly shown the opposite. Basic bitch secular liberalism is not Christianity, it's a parasite that grew from it and now controls its host.

[Anonymous No.22506830]

>>22501457
Ok real question: Qutb was originally a writer and literary critic before focusing his attention on Islamic polemics, but has any of his literary work been published? I've never seen a single person discuss his novels, I've never seen them translated into English and I've never seen his criticism. Seems like a pretty big thing to ignore.

[Anonymous No.22507447]

>>22506830
Most acclaimed Arabic works of literature are never translated into English. Until there is an English demand for a language’s literature, as for the example Japan, publishing houses don’t pay to translate large portions of it because it just won’t sell.

[Anonymous No.22507536]

>>22506707
Pretty much all religion is collapsing in the West. Religion is becoming a personal aesthetic, a personal choice that's unimportant and inconsequential for life. You can see a simmilar change happening in countries like Turkey where young generations are less and less religious. Muslims might be populous but that doesn't mean this problem of secularization is something they're immune to.

>>22506793
Protestant liberal Christianity can exist within a secular liberal society. Islam struggles to fit in a secular liberal society becasue it makes more claims on the individual and the commununity beyond private individual faith. If Muslim countries liberalize, they will become less and less Islamic. Christianity might be able in a zombie like state, but it can still exist and be tolerated within a liberal system where it's already been castrated. European secularists and even atheists still praise the positive role Christianity plays and its cultural heritage while being disbelievers, but their counterparts in the Middle East want Islam cut out of society wholesale and don't even see it as valuable cultural heritage. ISIS violent destruction of historic artifacts mirrors the destructiveness of the Kemalists and ultra secularists who destroyed shrines and mosques on a large scale.

It's prossible that Islam will not even survive the way zombie Christianity survives in Europe because secular liberals and a liberal consumerist lifestyle is especially hostile to Islam.

[Anonymous No.22507537]

>>22507447
The only Middle East literature that's ever translated is whatever Westerners want to read. They like Orhan Pamuk because he's a irreligious secularist so his work is promoted. I've heard that some Lebanese authors are now abandoning Arabic for French because they believe they'll never be translated. Translations are politically biased.

[Anonymous No.22507541]

>>22506830
No. The cloesest thing is his multivolume commentary on the Quran, his magnum opus. A bunch of Western countries have tried to ban his works outright or make possession crimminal so there's no incentive to translate his non-political works. Only jihadologists are interested in him. He's probably the most maligned writer of modern times.

[Anonymous No.22507549]

>>22507537
Right, because translating and printing cost money. Publishers only make a profit on 0.3% of works they publish (many by the same authors), the rest they lost money on and it is that fraction that makes enough to cover all those losses. That means even books they think look profitable, more than 99/100, are not, and they already reject the vast and overwhelming majority of submissions. They have no reason to consider translating most Arabic works to be a profitable venture.

[Anonymous No.22507804]

>>22506707
The Bible specifically references how those people existed during the first generations of Christians. This is nothing new, and the existence of sinners and nonbelievers doesn't mean the religion is dying or obsolete. Nor does lukewarm practicioners.

[Anonymous No.22507936]

>>22507804
Don't Christians believe they'll become a minority before the end times? Also those "fake Christians" are mostly Protestants so it's not like they have to be religious anyway.

[Anonymous No.22508062]

I wonder what qutb would think of mishima

[Anonymous No.22508144]

>>22507936
Not only that but Christianity has always spread fastest and rung the most true when it is being persecuted and oppressed. It's in its very nature to do so. From the Roman Empire to China and Korea and even recent evengelical movements. As Christianity is seen to decline it will become more persecuted, which will increase the faith and fortitude of it's believers which will inevitably lead to it's resurgence further down the line.

[Anonymous No.22508157]

>>22507536
Plenty of old school secularists in the west were fanatically antitheist (ex:diderot,voltaire,paine). Hardcore antitheism (now formalized as laicitism) is one of the pillars of French liberal democracy thanks to the anti christian policies of the revolutionaries. Of course far-left socialist/anarchist thinkers were mostly anti-religion outside a minority like Tolstoy. The reason modern secularists appreciate Christian heritage (laicist France and quebec considers Christian holidays to be blessed secular holidays while not granting that privilege of respect to Jewish and Muslim holidays) is because they are butchering/have butchered traditional practicing Christianity. I think Islam can exist in a zombie like secularized state (ex:the bosniaks and albanians,kazakhs,ilhan omar,tlaib,riz ahmed, and the other aforementioned liberal muslims).

The reason why a lot of secular anti-islam ethnonats like the Kemalists and Iranian nationalists tend to be obsessed with purging Islamic heritage and larping as pre-islamic trads is because they see Islam as a dirty Arab faith and Muslims as mental Arabs and thus tend to scapegoat Arabs, because they see themselves as temporarily embarassed westerners and believe without islam, their pre-islamic people would become enlightened western paradises like reddit land sweden. Its similar to how pagan wignats view christianity. A lot of othee secularists/antitheists in the islamic world also have a massive inferiority complex/temporarily embarassed westerner shtick.But i think secularism can exist in the islamic world without destroying Islamic heritage. MBS is secular but he isnt interested in crushing Islamic heritage. Nor did Nasser and the arab nationalists.
A minority of Muslim nations indeed are either secularized (ex soviet/yugoslav states like bosnia) or in in the process of secularizing (iran,turkey, arguably Saudi and UAE). But I dont think secularization will take place large scale unless secularists can provide aforementioned antidotes to the issues that allowed islamism/islamic revival to take off.

[Anonymous No.22508213]

>>22508144
Blasphemy of Christianity has become so normalized that a chance of a resurgence is less than 0% outside 3rd world places like the african continent. Its not like old school religious persecution/discrimination like Japan,Rome,or the ottomans where hopes about resurgence where understandable. Secularism can uproot a religion in ways far worse than old school persecution not just by oppression, but by discrediting traditional lifestyles altogether by appealing to desire.
The reasons why Muslims are so harsh on blasphemy because they know its normalization will lead to the collapse of Islam much like its doing to Christianity.

[Anonymous No.22508370]

>>22508144
Christianity used to be a dynamic religion. The abolition of slavery was driven by Evangelical Christians, as was the early women's movement (something feminists have airbrushed out of history). In the 20s, young American bohemians and free love types rebelled against their parents by joining one or another non-mainline Christian movement. This all seemed to fall apart in the 50s and 60s, and then the American new right coopted the Evangelical movement which totally discredited them. Christianity has become too sedentary.

>>22508157
>I think Islam can exist in a zombie like secularized state
Christianity still has identarian and nationalist value for Europeans, and there's an enclave within society where it's acceptable and can exist. It can still appeal to secular people in some diluted form. But Islam is so anithetical to liberal values and made into a monster by liberals that I doubt it could ever be the same. Westerners will only tolerate Islam as a museum piece or a dumb personal choice, religious Muslims are almost always painted as bad and evil simply for being visibly religious. They give a lot more leeway to religious Christians and Jews.

> I dont think secularization will take place large scale unless secularists can provide aforementioned antidotes to the issues that allowed islamism/islamic revival to take off.
What replaced religion in Western society? Various kinds of identity tribalism, music fandoms, deviant sex subcultures, feminism and other sectional movements. The global youth culture of the 2020s is overwhelmingly secular, pro-corporate, consumer materialist, pro-NATO, and LGBT or gender "nonconformist." Islam doesn't have a place in this world and within a generation it could just end up like Christianity in America, except it doesn't have any appeal even in a lukewarm, watered down, secular form. It will be like Confucianism in South Korea. A minority in its own land that most people see as strange, foreign, and backward with no value.

[Anonymous No.22508377]

>>22501457

Russell was constitutionally incapable of understanding people he disagreed with. Not just in religion, but in logic, mathematics, history, any field you can think of.

Intelligent people understand that if your obvious objections are sufficient, no one would believe in the thing you're attacking in the first place. But Russell did not have enough empathy to understand other points of view.

[Anonymous No.22508411]

>>22501457
Russell was a faggot atheist. Lost to the mystical-based writer John Cowper Powys after losing a marriage debate in New York, and immediately fled back to England to hide his wounds.

[Anonymous No.22508412]

>>22501543
Yeah they don't think.

[Anonymous No.22508415]

>>22503845
Actually it's smarter.

[Anonymous No.22508727]

>>22508370
So much of popular religion is grounded in belief and metaphyiscal ideas. Islam appears short on both. It's a religion of don't stare here, wash your hand like that, dress like this etc. A religion like this cannot survive.

[Anonymous No.22508951]

>>22508213
>>22508370
Lots of end of history talking points here. Christianity has gone through a lot of high and lows over 2000 years of wars, mass migrations, economic upheavals and whatever else. A few decades of postmodern secularism itself is a dying ideology and is unlikely to have any impact a century from now. Christianity may be dying in the west (debatable depending on how you define "dying") , but the West is also dying, who knows who'll be left standing in 400 years but I know who I would bet on.

The thing is that religion hasn't truly declined. People want to believe in something bigger than themselves, or that gives them purpose or whatever. Whether it's climate ideology, Satanism, paganism/Wiccans, vague spiritualism, celebrity worship etc etc there's just as much actual religious activity as there has always been. It's just where is it directed. I'm not convinced that all of these various things will persist as long or as strongly as Christianity, Islam or and number of other more ancient and powerful faiths. I think in the end these too will fade, leaving actual transcendant religions to fill the void left behind, that someone who's eaten candy and junk their entire lives will realize the benefits of real nourishing food and prefer it.

[Anonymous No.22508983]

>>22508727

You are correct about islam, and you massively overestimate human intelligence. People are quite happy to follow a list of silly, arbitrary, even capricious rules, as long as doing so makes them feel that they are part of something. Such traditions are well disposed for survival, especially if they are attended by pathological structures which insist on conformance and reproduction of the culture.

Have the past four years taught you nothing?

>>22508951

>People want to believe in something bigger than themselves.
I don't.

[Anonymous No.22508992]

>>22508983
>I'm a turd so everyone is
That's fine, but your kind has existed since the beginning of human thought, and will continue to the end. Don't overrate the long term appeal that postmodern secularism is going to have to the greater body of humanity.

[Anonymous No.22509004]

>>22508992

So what you're saying is that those who are in the truth are an elite, special few, who shall always exist...

[Anonymous No.22509013]

>>22504972
God damn i hate islam,literally the most degenerate religion known to man.
Muhammad will suffer the worst of fate.

[Anonymous No.22509116]

>>22501543

that doesnt mean they "dont struggle" with it. just because they dont bother to address it (or perhaps can't) it doesnt mean that its not still an incredibly valid challenge to such a moral/legalistic religion. being too retarded to challenge an issue doesnt mean you've somehow transcended it

[Anonymous No.22509125]

>>22509116
It's not a challenge to Islam. It is a uniquely Western phenomenon to agonize over the problem of evil because they are more individualistic and see themselves as having an obligation to control the world. In Islam Muslims are perfectly content with God being in control and allowing evil to exist as a test. The amount of people who have apostatized from Christianity because of the problem of evil is the biggest pussy shit I've ever heard

[Anonymous No.22509354]

>>22509004
Good talk then I guess.

[Anonymous No.22509362]

>>22501457
the white man

[Anonymous No.22509364]

>>22509125
>people leave Christianity because they can't reconcile their moral beliefs with the theology
Welp I think they're wrong but at least there's some sort of logic here and potentially an actual moral stand being made even if mistaken
>most Muslim apostates just wanna watch Mia Khalifa get fucked
Lol. Shallow religion, shallow apostates

[Anonymous No.22509369]

>>22509125
I've always argued that the problem of evil was more of a problem of narcissism than anything else, and even as an atheist, I've never found it particularly compelling.

[Anonymous No.22511102]

>>22508951
I'm not saying secularization is inevitable or even a good thing. America's race problems and culture wars got worse thanks to secularism as people no longer have a shared religion to broker dialogue between them. But secular liberalism is now the globally dominant ideology. Even America's right wing are at heart secular liberals who value individualism and the idea that religion is merely a personal choice. Catholic Christianity has declined but Protestantism doesn't face the same challenges. It's well suited to secular liberalism because it is itself individualistic and doesn't place a high value on community or imposed rules. So what if people are irreligious? As long as their faithful and good people. Protestant Christians aren't bothered by this situtation.

People may want to believe in something but what do they believe in? /pol/ism, woke culture, LGBT ideology, gender stuff, idpol, being a nerd or a metalhead or a vapid porn addict. When you assess all of these, you realize they are all highly corporate. Values are now packaged, advertized, and sold to us. Religion has its roots in natural communities and authentic traditions which are now being lost. This is less historically inevitable and more due to the global dominance of totalitarian liberalism. It's so overwhelmingly dominant now and it's destroying all religions that aren't already secularized.

>>22509364
>most Muslim apostates just wanna watch Mia Khalifa get fucked
I've seen people say stuff like "I stopped being religious so I could drink beer" or "I stopped being religious because I can't do this and that" etc. This is a mix of inferiority complex, slave mentality, and the desire to live a secular liberal lifestyle, which the media constantly pushes as superior to everything else. Islam isn't shallow by any means. It's orthopraxic. It places more value on practice, ritual, and self-discipline than any kind of Protestant style inner conviction or faith in Christ. Because of the liberalization of global culture and consumerism, Islam is poorly adapted to deal with it. Buddhism in Japan, another religion that's highly orthopraxic and restrictive of what adherents can and can't do, is going through a simmilar crisis. The population has largely lost interest because you can't be a Buddhist and fap to neko lolis or work in a cut throat corporate profession at the same time.

[Anonymous No.22511789]

>>22501798
taliban aren't takfiris, in fact deobandis are really chill in terms of takfir unlike barelvis (i literally can't tell the difference between them desu). the ebil taliban persecuting salafis thing is an emirati propaganda, and mind you i don't even like the taliban that much due to their tribalism.
>The entire Middle East is a pot of heresy
that and the stupid colonial borders, even the daesh map was significantly better than what it is today and the shia militias backed by iran didn't help either
>>22501543
Catholics have the best arguments against PoE, i think it's pretty much solved unless one's really dishonest or stupid

[Anonymous No.22511810]

>>22511789
Say what you will or do whatever logic you want, the Taliban have a hatred for America that Barelvis don’t, and mostly takfiris have a hatred for America

[Anonymous No.22511893]

>>22511102
Protestant faith is collapsing in the West like Catholicism too, but because it isn't like Catholicism, it better accomodates shit like woke pastors, Saint George Floyd, abortionism. Secular humanism is the birthchild of Protestant and Jesuit humanism, especially the former. It makes sense that even most Protestant conservatives are willing to resign to the liberal democratic system that is killing their religion.
The notion that a more secular society would be more rational and humane is largely nonsense. Religion has its failings, but non of the things brought about to replace it in a secular society are a strong substitute. You might like Shadi Hamid's article.
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2021/04/america-politics-religion/618072/
>>22508951
End of history is a stupid neocon idea, but Christianity is collapsing much like the pre-Christian/pre-Islamic pagans were wiped out. I think a new religion inspired by Christianity could happen, but it would be like how the Druze,Yazidis and Bahais are inspired by Islam.