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/lit/ - Literature

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22362059 No.22362059 [Reply] [Original]

>that rant on poetry at the end of Republic

Was Plato retarded?

>> No.22362064

>>22362059
>doesn't know about the unwritten doctrine

>> No.22362067

>>22362059
Dude was just bitter he wasn't smart enough to write poetry

>> No.22362072

>>22362059
yes

>> No.22362078

>>22362064
T b h im not interested in parsing obscure schizo numerology and pagan cosmology

>> No.22362084

>>22362059
It’s the part I disagree with Plato on most, but that’s because we have different intentions. In creating the city he sees as good, or Socrates sees as, whatever,, it would be nevesssary to eliminate poetry that doesn’t jive with the stated cultural beliefs and principles. I just don’t think the proposed civilization is worth the sacrifice of free artistry. Id rather have good tunes to listen to in hell than to hear heaven’s muzak

>> No.22362108

>>22362078
Is there a case to be made for numerology? After reading Machiavelli's main two books I listened to the Anton-Millerman interview where those niggers rambled about numerology for 30 minutes and then I read Strauss's Thoughts on Machiavelli and finally concluded that every single bit of it was nothing but schizo jew bullshit.

>> No.22362121

So in Plato's mind there is such a thing as the ideal form of a shoemaker, of which the fleshly shoemaker is an imperfect reflection, and the poet, in representing the latter, is now a third degree removed from true reality?

Even if I were to concede that a poet's aim is representational (i do not), what utter shite is this?

>> No.22362127

>>22362078
>I'm not interested in parsing obscure schizo numerology and pagan cosmology
ngmi

>> No.22362147

>>22362108
Read moar
>>22362121
Third man bruh
>>22362059
It's ironic. He's poetic himself. Besides. All societies censor things. Even America. Even this site. Grow up.

>> No.22362153
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22362153

>>22362147
But Jews really do own all the banks and media outlets and Israel does napalm children

>> No.22362157
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22362157

why didn't Plato just...
you know....
have sex and stuff

>> No.22362174
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22362174

>>22362059
How can you live in the modern world and not see his point. You don’t have to agree with to not understand that media can be used to influence the minds of the public for the worst.

>> No.22362209

>>22362174
Are you saying that there's no teleological difference between goyslop bread and circuses and Homer?

>> No.22362214
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22362214

>>22362209
Stop being dumb on purpose

>> No.22362228

>>22362214
Make me. That really was a fair representation of Plato's argument btw, I wasn't being facetious.

>> No.22362281

>>22362228
Homer is capeshit

>> No.22362520

>>22362059
This is going to be confusing, but bear with me.

The renewed critique of poetry in bk. X is a culminating critique of Glaucon's desires, the sign of which can be seen in the otherwise inexplicable choices of couches and tables as examples of beings of which there are ideas (596a-b); these two things are in fact the very things Glaucon demanded in bk. II in protest of what Socrates called "the city in truth", but which Glaucon called "the city of pigs" (372d-373a). On the practical level, bk. X's critique makes the earlier sanitizing of Homer's poetry in bks. II-III irrelevant. But what Socrates is actually driving at are Glaucon's manifold desires; the earlier critique of poetry is the direct result of Glaucon demanding relishes with his food, and fancy luxuries to consume it all with, which leads to the fevered city having to go to war in order to acquire things, and the development of the warrior guardians and their education that requires sanitized poetry in order to maintain a warrior spirit that also won't turn on the non-military castes. In bk. X, the critique brings up the will of the gods (597d) as a last ditch effort to persuade Glaucon to lower his political aspirations. The bearing of that passage is that once the will comes in, and not knowledge, the manifold of desires and their actualization comes in, and poetry is implicitly found wanting on account of cultivating unreal aspirations. Poetry makes you want to stand out and be a great individual and experience your life in an exaggerated way, not taking the loss of a loved one with moderation, but bewailing and lamenting as if it were 1) the only thing that mattered, and 2) that it ought to matter to everyone else, political stability be damned.

It might be worth considering the recent thesis by Jacob Howland that Glaucon joined the Thirty Tyrants and died with his uncle and cousin along the road to Piraeus that Socrates and Glaucon are on at the beginning of the Republic. The dialogue puts forward an incredibly high standard to dissuade the politically ambitious, who without warning, all just turn into Robespierres.

>> No.22362531

>>22362228
Haha that word sounds like feces

>> No.22362550

>>22362078
>>22362108
>Tubingen/Milan Schools

Far from it and would be much more dominant but for the geopolitical fortunes of the last century