/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22336933]

Mr max and co wrote 3 long boring books on communism. You might have read them. What have you done to contribute however?
Where is your book? Or more importantly where is your tech? I don't want you trow rite a book a book about your marxist interpretations like zizek. I mean how could AI could be incorporated into space luxury communism and things of that nature.

[Anonymous No.22337042]

>>22336933
>What have you done to contribute however?
I shit post daily on this web board. If you took my postings and compiled them they would far exceed Marx's in both length and philosophical insight.

[Anonymous No.22337059]

>>22337042
okay so how do you think AI could plan an economy?

[Anonymous No.22337098]

>>22337059
It can't.

[Anonymous No.22337118]

>>22337098
unless you think the markets require something divine it sure as heck can. My thinking is something along the lines of simulated supply and demand with data collected from people's browsing habits.

[Anonymous No.22337154]

>>22337059
This is an easy one

Keep track of population and transactions then balance

[Anonymous No.22337167]

I’m working in construction over the summer holidays to earn some extra money before uni starts since it pays more than the typical student job like barista. The proletarians I meet there are utterly vulgar, racist, dull-minded consumerists. They come to work in their fancy Porsches and BMWs, depreciating assets which they bought instead of investing their money. All they talk about is football or getting into fights or fucking women or getting drunk or when their next meaningless holiday to some sunny destination will be. Their only political beliefs seem to be hatred of “niggers” and “pakis” which, like everything else about them, arises from some inner animalistic impulse instead of any real developed worldview. Any talk about philosophy, history, politics, spirituality, religion, economics, man’s relation to the world and his ultimate meaning, are met only with mockery and strange glances. It seems the proletarian lives in a world which is simply an unchangeable brute fact, about which no questions can conceivably be asked. A world which simply exists as it does because it does. The proletarian’s consciousness, his cares, his worries, the structure of his mind and perception, the things which motivate him — all of these are simply foisted upon him, he lives them out unquestioningly as if they are simply given and necessary. He is, in a word, decontextualised, deracinated; he appears in this world thrown into a rootless subculture with no Weltanschauung, no idea how to situate itself within the drama of cosmic history, and not even a justification for its own existence. Their “higher metaphysical wants”, if they can be so called, are shallow enough to be fully satisfied by the theatre of competitive sports or a vague sentimental nationalism that hates the foreigner without even knowing why. How, then, does Marx suppose that this class is suppose to rise up and emancipate itself? The lack of a political will among them is evident. What leader will galvanise them, what higher principle would they be willing to die for? Their minds are numb enough not to be affected by the dull excruciating physical labour they’re put through 8 hours a day. Unless they are starving they won’t rise.

[Anonymous No.22337213]

>>22337167
If new form of communism were to happen again my bet is it would happen in a small scale somewhere such as syria with kurds or mexico with the zapatistas. It'd be tried on a small scale. It would then slowly spread because the not even brutes could deny it be my guess.

[Anonymous No.22337242]

>>22337118
The economy is just the emergent order of billions of transactions from billions of economic actors. Even with the best trajectory for quantum computers, you can't capture a fraction of that complexity. That's why the dispersed knowledge of a free market will always be the most efficient system. To think otherwise is a fatal conceit.

[Anonymous No.22337250]

>>22337242
>Repeating Mises and Hayek's thought-terminating cliches
yawn

[Anonymous No.22337260]

>>22336933
Utterly btfo'd by Spengler and the "economy" doesn't exist, it is a western faustian dellusion. Either stay in the sinking ship or swim away and fast. Your move

[Anonymous No.22337289]

>>22337260
I didn't read spencer but if he claims the economy doesn't exists then I don't care to read what he wrote anyways.

[Anonymous No.22337298]

>>22337118
>if you have a scalpel anyone or anything can do surgery

[Anonymous No.22337306]

>>22337298
no its more like if you have an automated surgery bot anyone or anything can do surgery

[Anonymous No.22337312]

>>22337250
And yet you have no argument against it.

[Anonymous No.22337316]

>>22337289
Objects exist, money exists, commerce and trade and production and labour all of these things exist, but the Western framing of them is dellusional and leads to all political candidates in the late-stage dying old man that is the West today only ever talking about "the economy". It is analogous to Western science, which deals with pure concept completely removed from reality. You have "forces" and "inertia" and "energy" and all of these things are entirely arbitrary purely mathematical constructs which are meaningless as anything aside from what they truly are, artistic expression of the Western Spirit. This is also why after you firsties are all dead the machines and computers will gently give way to agrarian societies again as the good lord intended - regression to the mean is coming with a vengence and I can't wait for it

[Anonymous No.22337353]

>>22337316
>an unironic Spenglerian
Bro, there are a lot of insights in Spengler but the guy was a schizo who put forward a radically incomplete philosophy and anyone who just takes 100% of what he said at face value is probably a teenager who’s not read a lot of books

[Anonymous No.22337451]

>>22337306
If you trust an automated bot to work on your vital organs i don't know what to tell you....

[Anonymous No.22337458]

>>22337316
>inertia is meaningless and arbitrary
say that to my fist holding a roll of quarters as it collides with your jaw

[Anonymous No.22337475]

>>22337353
>radically incomplete
I don't think you read the book, prove to me you did and come up with three examples of this incompleteness. If it is "radically" incomplete and there's so much shit he can't account for please just three examples you retarded gorilla nigger
>>22337458
Again, object exist, things exist and are things, but to chop the world into obscure concepts such as "mass" and "energy" is not an accurate description of the physical, it is a personal statement of Faustian man's feelings

[Anonymous No.22337477]

>>22337451
Lol you prefer something with a pulse and no failswitches

[Anonymous No.22337491]

>>22337451
If the robot is good enough to hit the market I'd assume it'd be good enough. We're all going to die some day anyways.

[Anonymous No.22337586]

>>22336933
Read Cockshott. There is no irony or deeper message to this - just read Cockshott, because he's the only one to concern himself with the computational "how" of post-capitalist economic planning.
Start with "Calculation in-Natura, from Neurath to Kantorovich", over at https://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~wpc/reports/standalonearticle.pdf
His main work is "Towards A New Socialism", which is showing its age (it was written in 1989, as a package of computerizing reforms for a stagnating USSR - it's not so applicable as a roadguide today)
He also has several new books, which I haven't read yet. The latest is supposed to be on planning in an age of climate crisis, which I'm excited to get to when I have the chance.
His work on econophysics is also quite readable for the mathematically literate. See "Classical Econophysics", which he coauthored.
For a more abstract, history-oriented overview of Soviet cybernetics, there's Slava Gerovitch's "InterNyet"
https://web.mit.edu/slava/homepage/articles/Gerovitch-InterNyet.pdf
His full book, which I haven't read yet, is "From Newspeak to Cyberspeak: A History of Soviet Cybernetics"
>>22337316
Why don't you exile yourself to a farm now so we can run you over with tanks without destroying anything of value? Save us the trouble of not dragging others into your moronic peasant scheme.
>>22337458
based mechanical materialist

[Anonymous No.22337625]

>>22337586
>I will prove you wrong with might of arms
Least unhinged Westerner, good thing soon enough you will all be dead and you have been sterile for a long time now, so only fellahim mulattoes will pick up the torch from you

[Anonymous No.22337637]

>>22337475
I read volume 1 and man and technics. For one thing his relativism is self-refuting since it itself is a claim to universal truth

[Anonymous No.22337643]

>>22337586
I have read a bit of towards a new socialism. But he only goes over determining the price of goods to avoid shortages and such. It doesn't delve very deep into it.
>that book list recommendation
That looks like it'd take like a freaking decade to absorb lol and I'm getting a little bit old and rusty
Yeah it kind of sucks nobody has gone through the process and kind of distilled into a book if you know what I mean

[Anonymous No.22337646]

>>22336933
I don't care about the economy I literally just want to kill Jews, that's my policy prescription, everything else will sort itself out to a much more reasonable state

[Anonymous No.22337651]

>>22337586
>random maths and programming books along with Marxist propaganda
Kek, do the Marxists really think they’re going to code their way to utopia now that their original project failed?

[Anonymous No.22337659]

>>22337637
He never denies Truth he denies the Western claim to Truth as "a truth", framing being important. He at all times connects all manners of thought to his idealist metaphysics, it makes him more of a perennialist than a relativist. Also, that's not three examples, and he can be wrong on characterizations of other cultures but of the West, the Classical and the Magian cultures, he is not

[Anonymous No.22337672]

>>22337637
People always get caught up on this shit with the postmodernists. "Society is organized into grand narratives and all grand narratives are incomplete" is not self-refuting because it isn't a grand narrative, it's a metanarrative, and anyway it can be useful without being complete.

[Anonymous No.22337699]

>>22337643
No one demands of you that you read the whole thing - few could. What we need is organization to pull together those with relevant skills. How to do so productively is the hard question.
>>22337651
The economy is already built on computerized signals and automated planning, and, with the climate crisis, we will either adapt or perish.
The role of Marxists has always been one of elaborating existing discourse via criticism.
> The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to the other working-class parties.
> They have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole.
> They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mould the proletarian movement.
> The Communists are distinguished from the other working-class parties by this only: 1. In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to the front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality. 2. In the various stages of development which the struggle of the working class against the bourgeoisie has to pass through, they always and everywhere represent the interests of the movement as a whole.
The only true failure is if the system hurtles on as now and ends in neo-feudalism amid an inhospitable ruined climate.
>>22337625
Being the child of non-Westerners, I can tell you your ideal of them bears no semblance to reality. Touch grass, talk to some people from elsewhere. Actually, never mind: they'd be as weirded out by your fetishization as I am. Just die.

[Anonymous No.22337705]

>>22337672
post modernism is 1005 glowie funded stuff really. It is plain to see that the future can only get more productive. Even if everyone becomes dumber everything gets more productive but at a slower rate, because well the knowledge is not lost and its still built upon. Until productiveness is maximized and you've reach post scarcity communism.

[Anonymous No.22337716]

>>22337699
>the child of non-Westerners
Kek listen to this firstie in denial it reads like the "you'll get assimilated" comic lmao. You second gen immigrants are utter trash, at least vintage firsties can claim to be of stock, you have claim to nothing other than being living proof of the degeneration of firsties, you are the product of decline

[Anonymous No.22337717]

>>22337705
I can't find this blog tagline anymore but it's a fact: a greater and greater share of increased productivity from technological advancement is being used to cover up social decay. Eventually we'll hit the point where technology advances slower than society decays, then line go down.

[Anonymous No.22337720]

>>22336933
It’s on a site but I can’t link it here because it gets filtered as spam.

[Anonymous No.22337748]

>>22337720
you can use this
shortur website
And if it still won't let you post the link just post the stuff that comes after the slash
stick it to the tranny jannies

[Anonymous No.22337768]

>>22337748
What bug crawled up hiromoots ass

[Anonymous No.22337792]

Mikhail Kalashnikov did more for the cause than Marx ever could.

[Anonymous No.22337800]

>>22337659
>three examples
1. Relativism: he’s a radical relativist Nietzschean and your interpretation of him not denying truth is something I never saw in the text
2. The idea of a Culture “awakening” and gaining its “prime symbol” which it then develops throughout its life is something completely unexplained in the text. How the transmission from generation to generation occurs for example is pretty much a mystery. Not saying the idea is totally worthless, but it’s overblown and has no explanation. It also leads him into these cope positions where he says for example the Renaissance has nothing to do with Classical culture.
3. His idea that the Greek mathematics “denies depth” because of Euclid is retarded. Euclid visualised the shapes he was talking about in 3-dimensional space. The reason I know this is because he proves side-angle-side congruence (the SAS theorem) by aligning the triangles on top of each other. But if two triangles are mirror images of each other, it is impossible to do this unless you can pick one of them up and flip it around. There are some interesting differences in the way the classical Greeks viewed maths compared to us but to claim that the similarity between them is only “superficial” is just wrong. Also, he claimed no interesting discoveries about mathematics are left for Westerners to discover, only working out the old, just before Godel published his incompleteness theorems 15 or so years later. The incompleteness theorems are the most important mathematical discovery in history.
>>22337672
I said Spengler has valuable insights but to be his disciple is retarded. The man has very few committed disciples for a reason, and that reason is his incompleteness.

[Anonymous No.22337873]

>>22337699
The communists clearly have nothing to do with the proletariat. The Russian revolution was done by a group of rogues without popular support. In Italy and Germany, the communists were put aside for a more nationalistic vision. Today communists disavow all populist movements and are focused on the liberation of the individual from concepts such as gender and traditional values rather than the liberation of the proletariat from material conditions. The whole climate stuff puts you in alliance with Klaus Schwab against the trade unionists oil workers. Communist pro-immigration policies not only are against the values of the proletariat, who are usually very racist, but are indeed economically harmful to them and beneficial to capitalists. In China the communists use their proletariat as cheap labour for western capital, while billionaire “communist” financial speculators and party members live in luxury. Top communist speakers like Chomsky are all encouraging their fans to vote for mainstream middle class candidates like Joe Biden. And by all statistical accounts, communists are generally middle class educated dandies rather than rough proletarian workers. Only the communist party in Russia seems to be genuinely proletarian in values and orientation, but it’s mostly supported by the old USSR nostalgists.

So no, communism isn’t for the working class and you’re not going to code your way to utopia. You’re a middle-class rootless immigrant who cares for the working class in the same way a person would feel pity for an animal at the zoo.

[Anonymous No.22337890]

>another commietranny thread

[Anonymous No.22337902]

>>22337873
I just like discussing commie tech because it peaks my interest but there isn't a space to discuss it seems.

[Anonymous No.22337969]

>>22337242
>The economy is just the emergent order of billions of transactions from billions of economic actors.
on what timescale? Plus billions of bits isn't that much.

>Even with the best trajectory for quantum computers, you can't capture a fraction of that complexity.
This statement is pure theology. Computer science exists to analyze statements like this but you just rattle out this absolute nonsense pulled out of pre-computer math lore. The human gestalt is no longer anywhere close to efficient compared to computational planning.

[Anonymous No.22337991]

>>22337969
Really we have a ridiculous amount of computational power now. I think some drug companies can simulate an entire rat.with a supercomputer.

[Anonymous No.22338005]

>>22337213
It's a nice thought comrade, probably the most likely scenario that doesn't involve total ecological collapse.

[Anonymous No.22338029]

>>22337969
>on what timescale?
Through all of human history
>Plus billions of bits isn't that much.
No, but a billion times a billion is.
>The human gestalt is no longer anywhere close to efficient compared to computational planning.
More non-argument word salad pulled out of the ass of a frustrated barista who wants to blame capitalism for "forcing" him to take out student loans to get a $100,000 for a navel gazing English degree. Sorry, ChatGPT isn't going to solve the coordination problem and save you from working your wagie job.

[Anonymous No.22338036]

>>22337991
Wow, an entire rat!?! Neato! Hey, let me know when they can do not just one, but all 7.8 billion human brains on the planet, model how they interact with each other, along with all the external variables of earth's weather and geology and how that can tell us the optimal price of corn.

[Anonymous No.22338038]

>>22338005
Cringe

[Anonymous No.22338044]

>>22338036
Corn shall cost $500/bushel. The rest of the market will fix itself around that price.

[Anonymous No.22338057]

>>22338036
you don't even need to simulate even one human brain silly like I said scrape browsing history of people turn it into a database and program the AI based on that. Then it'd know what the demand is. By it knowing the demand it could output the supply requirements be my guess. We're not google though...

[Anonymous No.22338071]

>AI will heckin' bring gommunism
Just goes to show how anti-humanity you niggers are.

[Anonymous No.22338081]

>>22338071
Oh we're the ones saying that huh

[Anonymous No.22338084]

>>22338081
It's a Jew, dude

[Anonymous No.22338095]

>>22338081
>communism will replace capitalism
Brainlet take.

[Anonymous No.22338097]

>>22338081
>Google OpenAI CEO
>Go to early life section
>never fails

[Anonymous No.22338114]

>>22338095
capitalism has such a degree of malleability that the income tax could be 90% and it'd still be capitalism. The only alternative to capitalism as far as I can tell is communism or the proper term socialism really and it too can take many forms. A lot of the soviet politburo was there for the most part strictly for economic planning. The idea of having an AI automated most if not all of it is to not have to have a politburo or a dictator ideally.

[Anonymous No.22338134]

>>22338114
>The idea of having an AI automated most if not all of it is to not have to have a politburo or a dictator ideally.
You'll still be ruled by something. The AI will be the state and you will abide to its rules without question. It'll be able to think for itself and create its own set of rules, it won't be something like we have now where these retards call machine learning alghoritms AI.

[Anonymous No.22338165]

>>22338134
Not necessarily. The idea is for the AI to cater to our needs and wants and for robots to perform the labor. The AI could put forth proposals based on the data and the data could later be reviewed and approved or disproved by the population via vote on the internet.
>but who owns the servers?
The servers could be a large transparent p2p network. Something like a blockchain. The AI may be powered by said network as well why not.

[Anonymous No.22338171]

>>22338081
This does not disprove what I said.

[Anonymous No.22338173]

>>22338165
>by the population via vote on the internet

[Anonymous No.22338179]

>>22338165
What a terrible future.

[Anonymous No.22338285]

>>22338057
>Then it'd know what the demand is.
No you wouldn't, because people's browsing history doesn't capture all of demand.
>By it knowing the demand it could output the supply requirements
This is why humanities majors shouldn't be allowed to vote.

[Anonymous No.22338305]

>>22338285
Well there'd be a strong incentive for people to lurk like they mean it so all the demand can be captured

[Anonymous No.22338352]

>>22337873
>The Russian revolution was done by a group of rogues without popular support
That's not true
> In Italy and Germany, the communists were put aside for a more nationalistic vision.
The social democrats betrayed the communists
> Today communists disavow all populist movements and are focused on the liberation of the individual from concepts such as gender and traditional values rather than the liberation of the proletariat from material conditions
Those aren't communists
> whole climate stuff puts you in alliance with Klaus Schwab against the trade unionists oil workers
Actually addressing the climate issues means building a lot means more jobs.
Besides, the climate will continue to change whether it's politically expedient or not.
> Communist pro-immigration policies
Dating back to Cesar Chavez, we've spoken against employers bringing in illegal immigrants to divide workers and lower wages.
> communist speakers like Chomsky
Literally an anti-communist "anarchist"
> communists are generally middle class educated dandies rather than rough proletarian workers
Every other anti-woke communist I know - who are focused on organizing - has a working class background. I'm rather unusual in that regard. I've never been to a DSA meetup, because they disgust me. It's obvious their parents were worlds richer and that the entitlement rubbed off.
> You’re a middle-class rootless immigrant who cares for the working class in the same way a person would feel pity for an animal at the zoo
There are easier groups to pity (like inner city blacks) if that was my goal. You'll notice that the moralistic liberals have come to hate the working class (which, despite now being Latino, Asian, etc, and white, they now try to universally call "white" whenever they don't do as they please)
No, the communist insistence on the primacy of the working class is because of their potential for changing things, because of the power they so often don't realize they hold.
And, I have more in common with most workers than I do company management, from how I'm paid to what I have to lose. "Middle class" is meaningless. A Homer Simpson-type worker got more for their money than I do for mine, even if what I do demands more credentials. I wasn't born into the MBA-lacrosse-scholarship crowd, they don't want me, and I don't want them.

[Anonymous No.22338607]

>>22338029
>No, but a billion times a billion is.
literally seconds
>More non-argument word salad pulled out of the ass of a frustrated barista [projecting]
Your argument is based on Heyek's calculation problem who proposed the idea before computers. You've presented 0 reasons why our distributed net of pocket computers can't do the job of a market.

[Anonymous No.22338612]

>>22338173
you realize e-voting is very common.

>>22338179
>achieves all your desires instantly
noooooo abloo bloo

[Anonymous No.22339107]

>>22336933
>muh luxury gay space communism
not real, won't happen, the first-world standard of living is enabled by the superexploitation of the third world. everyone will be getting beautiful concrete commie blocks

and no bananas

[Anonymous No.22339161]

>>22337873
>The Russian revolution was done by a group of rogues without popular support.
Were they like Marvel's Avengers or something?

[Anonymous No.22339196]

>>22337902
>>>/r/eddit.