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/lit/ - Literature

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22295438 No.22295438 [Reply] [Original]

Why don't you talk about him

>> No.22295466

>>22295438
Because he isn’t one of:
Dostoyevsky
Homer
Pynchon (more old /lit/)
DFW (more old /lit/)
Joyce (more old /lit)
McCarthy
Nabakov (for pedo purposes)
The Bible
Nietzsche
John Williams (Stoner mostly)
Herman Melville (just Moby Dick)

These writers probably constitute 80% of legitimate threads. A lot of anons like Beckett on here. One of the funniest writers I’ve read and he is frequently mentioned as one of the great modernist writers

>> No.22295480
File: 27 KB, 494x2000, suck.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
22295480

>>22295466
Beckett is old /lit/, we used to talk about him a great deal. Was going to post an old screen shot from a fun old /lit/ Beckett thread but I am not seeing it so this will have to do.

>> No.22295496

>>22295480
The part where he fucks the person and he is wondering if it was a man or a woman, he thinks woman because no testicles, but possibly it was a man holding his testicles out of the way had me cracking up out loud. I need to get that box set I always see on Amazon to explore him further. I love the Trilogy and his novellas like The End.

Old /lit/ was all about the proto-postmodern (Ulysses, Gaddis) and postmodern doorstopper. Beckett isn’t a doorstopper but he’s kind of in that former category. I barely see the meme trilogy actually discussed anymore. Times have changed

>> No.22295520
File: 269 KB, 1597x1315, russians.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
22295520

>>22295496
Gaddis is more middle era, he was niche before the NYRB reissue and most Gaddis threads were people complaining about how expensive his books were. There are loads of authors/books we talked about which were not pomo doorstoppers, Kafka, Beckett, Calvino, Nabokov, the Russians, early japanese modernists, the beats, magical realism, Hesse, and loads more all had regular threads.

The Russians threads were always fun threads before they got reduced to Dostoyevsky.

>> No.22295521

>>22295438
I'm gonna talk about him with Godot when he gets here.

>> No.22295523

>>22295521
Lets rap.

>> No.22295528

>>22295520
Yeah /lit/ used to be much more diverse in general. I was happy when I got a Dalkey The Recognitions but ended hating the book. The devolution from Russians to Dostoyevsky has hit the next rung down where Dostoyevsky threads are Christian vs atheist flamewars

>> No.22295537

>>22295528
I miss the old days but don't have the time or energy for it these days, I just wish /lit/ could still make memes that make me laugh as much as the wojak russians does.

>> No.22295538

>>22295523
Wait, YOU'RE Godot? Christ, uh, this is really embarrassing, but I seem to have made a mistake ... waited for days for the wrong guy, Jesus ... uh, just a second, mind looking away from this tree for a few minutes? I'm gonna ... take a leak. Yes, urinate.

>> No.22295548

>>22295538
I am reasonably confident that I am Godot but I can not be certain I am your Godot but I was supposed to meet a couple of fellas here so reason would have it that I am your Godot. I will not look away. Have you been waiting long?

>> No.22295561

>>22295438
I do talk about him sometimes but his content isn't that interesting, beyond the comic value to some people (not for me). Those exclamation monologues were new when Dosto wrote them, by Beckett's time it became cringeworthy straight-faced self awareness. It's not fun, nor are any of his imitators (especially not that horrible bore, Gass).

A few of his plays are good but plays aren't discussed that much whatsoever.

>> No.22295565

>>22295548
Waited long? I can't remember. Speaking of, could you hold the fort for a minute? [Exits left.]

>> No.22295573

>>22295565
...[Exits stage center]

>> No.22295578

Lot of anons just haven't read him. He's sort of meme proof because he work is simple in language but dense in structure. How the fuck do you shitpost about the Unnamable for example? I love Beckett and have made a few threads about him that garner some attention but it's nearly always from people who have actually read him and can discuss him. I wouldn't mind but Murphy is 100% a "literally me" character and I'm surprised he hasn't been picked up. Watt is an autistic expression of logic that is great to read as well.

>> No.22295677

>>22295561
>exclamation monologues

What specifically do you mean by this?

>> No.22295718

>>22295677
The "oh look at me trying hard to say something but can't say it and now look how i am going to invent this story and keep interrupting it because this is totally metafiction about poverty of stories" bricks that he frequently drops.

For original example, read Dostoevsky's opening of Notes from the underground.

Beckett is a writer of his time. He feels very dated now especially his habits in prose. Cioran was correct about him.

>> No.22295721

>>22295578
>dense in structure
His work is unstructured except for readers' projections onto it. That's literally what he was trying to do. What the hell are you talking about?

>> No.22295762

>>22295721
I mean as in composition. Saying that not all his novels are the trilogy anon. Murphy was standard enough

>> No.22295959

>>22295718
>citing Cioran as an authority...on anything
Y I K E S

>> No.22295964

>>22295959
Beckett literally worshipped him you idiot.

>> No.22296015

>>22295438
I like his use of language but his ideas aren't terribly interesting and his plays and poems are quite "you saw one, you saw them all".

>> No.22296031

I don't get his films

>> No.22296064

>>22295438
Because his most classic books are poorly edited

>> No.22296889

>>22295964
>Beckett liked him
>therefore you must like him too if you're a REAL Beckett reader
Yeah and Joyce carried doll panties in his pockets but you don't see Joyce or readers doing that either. And DFW read boomer slop like Tom Clancy, but you don't see New Sincerity students praising Rainbow Six (the book) to high heaven.

Get a job, hippy.

>> No.22296956

>>22296889
Shit up retard

>> No.22297866

>>22296889
>muh gatekeeping
You're a huge butthurt faggot.
>>22295964
You're also a faggot because your justification is misplaced. Be secure in your takes, anon: you need no justification talking to braindead zoomers who whinge about gatekeeping in response to an offhand comment.

>> No.22298531

>>22295438
His autistic stage directions informed my expectations of stage directions and I used to go crazy when playwrights ignored them or had the characters awkwardly say what they were doing.

>> No.22299201

>>22295438
He's kinda funny, but agree with the other anon thematically a bit boring.
Basically just "life is le absurd, nothing makes sense, everything is just your p.o.v". Memey relativism.
Out of the absurdist novelists I prefer Kafka.

>> No.22299246

>>22299201
Reah his early works.

>> No.22299294

>>22295548
Do you enjoy all types of tennis?

>> No.22299295

>>22295466
all of these are barely mentioned, with the exception of McCarthy (because he recently published and then died), Nietzsche (because a lot of edgy teens come here thinking they are philosophers), Dosto (but only to talk about "if god why evil"), and the Bible

>> No.22299306

>>22299295
If we are being honest most threads are battlegrounds in someway: Dosto, bible and Nietzsche threads are banners for Christian and atheist fighting, Lolita threads are pedos vs antipedos, DFW just seems to get hated on anymore with a few defending him, and so on. You almost have to stumble upon an actual discussion randomly with a single anon to get anything going

>> No.22299332

>>22299306
I'm an old newfag lurker (came here in 2019. I'm almost 30) But I like to be on Warosu more than here. Even then it feels like something happened after 2020 and then also in 2022. Somehow over the last few months, people are hating on David Foster Wallace more. McCarthy seems to have been a staple, no doubt. But it became more concentrated on religion, philosophy, petty bickering. I dig through Warosu and people were really calmer. Not that they were averse to redpilling or TJQ. But people are really angry lately. Kinda sad but I'm a newfag so what do I know?

>> No.22299347

>>22299332
You’re right. In early 2022 around the Russian invasion the board collapsed. Now it’s like an “intellectual” /b/ with mostly religion, philosophy, culture, and politics. The tone is a lot different too. It may have never been a pleasant place but anons are just angry and aggressive now. Every thread is a minefield or battlefield

>> No.22299356

>>22299332
The change happened in 2016 but we kept up a good fight for a few years which ultimately left the board with a legacy of bickering. 2020 was covid tourism, 2022 was depression and realization that we lost the battle.

>> No.22299371

>>22299356
I agree with this but I would add gamergate. That was the battle trumpet sounding. 2016 (trump election) was the flood, Reddit got rid of their trump sub around here too, I think. 2020 (trump loses and Covid) /lit/ is bombarded with grenades in the trenches, it is a losing fight. 2022(invasion) /lit/ died. That the timeline I figure. There are still some good anons though but you really have to wade through a river of shit to find them

>> No.22299392

>>22295520
>>22295528
>>22299347
>>22299356
I don't know which ones of you pointed this about Dostoevsky being the sole Russian mentioned here but it's so damned true! I mean, the Russians are a bit overrated but it's because people just keep on harping about about three of them max. Tolstoy, Lermontov, Chekhov, Gofol, Goncharov are not mentioned as much anymore. I get that people relate to Dosto due to his themes but it's so tiresome when it's just shit-flinging and woe is me in every threads.
Then you see nobody mentioning Soviet lit either. While they had Bely, Olesha, Peteov, Platonov, Akhmetovna .Way more Lolita threads for no reason .While there seems to have been a lot of dick-measuring with the meme trilogy, i find better recommendations and people having fun there. It's kind of sad as an outsider. Like Tony Soprano, I came here when it's over. But then I look up a truelit thread on Reddit and literary horror recommendations included fucking Stephen King (no offence to his fans) and many McDonalds tier entries. Obligatory ty for reading my blogpost.

>> No.22299445

>>22295718
I think he does it frequently simply because he's engaging in an iterative process, working his way down to the next circle. If it's not for you, fair enough. I think he is just very sincere and serious, which results in a sort of autistic rigor, and that rigor coexists in pleasing tension with outbursts of emotion or lyricism, that push and pull being the driving force for his iterations. The method is the result of the emotion and vice versa: the method fails, so the frustration comes out, and the emotion causes him to become invested further in pursuing the method as far as it will go, in refining it further.

>> No.22299848

>>22299347
source?

>> No.22299962

>>22299445
I know why he does it but you can only take that much interruption, especially when all of its intricacies are in its face value. It becomes a routine and not pleasant to read. You could say Dostoevsky has the same problem with religious passion. It feels dated.

>> No.22300061

>>22295578
>is simple in language
no?
>>22295721
>His work is unstructured
you cant say that moran gradually becoming molloy-like and the novel beginning and ending with the writing of a report was unintentional, or the shift in language in the unnamable and the ambiguity of the perspective until around the halfway point, or malone finally finding freedom in his last narrative.

>> No.22300067

>>22299201
maybe if you actually engaged with the particulars of the books and didnt read them as theses on le life youd get more out of them

>> No.22300096

>>22300061
You are looking at the broad strokes. Is Moran's individual monologue very structured? Molloy's certainly isn't. You are only looking at the final loop trick and attributing it to the whole book. Similarly, Malone's nested story is spontaneous. He literally invents it on the fly and it is repeatedly interrupted with his rambles. The story he tells for example is quite unpredictable. You could never guess it would end in a boat with the characters getting killed. The Unnamable is the most unstructured of the 3 and the revelation of the narrator's identity doesn't illuminate much of him any more than the ramble that preceded it.

His most structured post war work is How it is. And it's structure is very simple. 3 parts: before, with and after, with a neat trick that the 1st part is actually the character in the 3rd part narrating all 3 parts. It's a simple iterative loop. None of this would qualify as dense structure.

>> No.22300102

>>22300061
>moran
am i supposed to pronounce this like moron?

>> No.22300274

>>22300096
that that it looks spontaneous and is the stream of consciousness of the narrators doesnt mean it wasnt premeditated by beckett. compared to a borroughs book that introduces actual randomness i think they are certainly structured and not just in the broad strokes. when a thought is explored for example there is almost always a Catuṣkoṭi (had to look this up, im not that pretentious) being employed where the possibility of something being the case or not being the case or both being the case or neither being the case are sequentially entertained. there is an internal logic and structure to the progression.
>Is Moran's individual monologue very structured?
it is relatively a linear story. and there are connections to be made between the two sections as small as the sound of a gong. i think the stone sucking and the bee language passages mirror each other also.
>You could never guess it would end in a boat with the characters getting killed.
but it is a beautiful and fitting ending where all the built up tension explodes and a character thats confined to a bed is freed in a fantasy. even if this was somehow unintentional or unforeseen by the author, this is structure and a musical ending. i dont think predictability is relevant. also there are small connections with his narrative fantasies and his reports of his room, like the lady with the yellow arms, or the big autistic ramble being about rolling around. surely thats significant when its coming from a character who has to lie down.
>The Unnamable is the most unstructured of the 3 and the revelation of the narrator's identity doesn't illuminate much of him any more than the ramble that preceded it.
well we do get some visuals and context at that point at least. that shows restraint. and the novel definitely has a perceptible change of prose towards the end where its all comas.

idk i see this branching evolving structure throughout the entire thing. its not contrived like a building but like a fungus maybe. certainly not chaos for the sake of chaos.
>>22300102
i say it like "more than" without the "th" but im not french

>> No.22300364

>>22299392
Those authors are still well regarded here but I think Dostoyevsky is easiest one to have a conversation about. After reading A Writer in his Time by Joseph Frank it was apparent how closely Russian literature was tied with the political, cultural, and history of the time. I know that sounds like a well duh moment, but if you arent well versed with late 18th century and 19th century Russian history a lot can go over a reader’s head. Chekhov probably offers the best chance for a good thread as he has a lot of nuance in what is usually dubbed the human condition. Alas, short stories aren’t popular here

>> No.22300379

>>22300102
>>22300274
>Moran
It's an Irish name lol. Pronounced "More-in"

>> No.22301156

>>22295438
I don't like most of what I've read by him, I think there were a couple of poems I liked. The subjects that interest him just do not interest me. His minimalism is dull and flat, and he's just tedious.

>> No.22301192

>>22295438
Do you guys prefer him in French or English?

>> No.22301727

>>22299962
Yeah like I said, totally fair. I think you have to either share in his obsession somewhat to begin with or be a very sympathetic reader in order to get on board with what he’s doing. But if you are in the sweet spot in terms of sharing his philosophical concerns, aesthetic sensibilities, and emotional responses, there is really no one better.

>>22300061
>>22300096
>>22300274
I think there is structure to Molloy’s section too, a straightforward “progress of the soul” starting off with him seeking his mother and coming into contact with the world and its laws, then the incidental fall and derailment into the domesticated state of love, then the discovery of technique with the sucking-stones, then the bodily decay as the setting-in of futility, then the final inertia. And that is his moment of transition from Inferno to Purgatorio, Moran obviously meeting him there and making his own transition with his apotheosis-by-contradiction. And then the two separate poles of the first volume just begin to progressively disintegrate into each other, or to oscillate with increasing frequency, and the closer they get to each other the more the arena of the conflict is restricted, the more basic are the attributes which are created in order to be defaced - from Mahood’s subhuman setting, to Worm’s abstract one, to the skull or the pure words of the I-narrator - and the more the shades of the external world fade away: all of this can certainly be termed a sort of density of structure.

>> No.22301738

ITT Beckettcels not having the slightest idea what structure is, let alone a dense one. Motifs and symbols as structure are also visible in GRRM's work, it is literally the most basic ass shit.

>> No.22301819

>>22301738
They know what structure is, they are just talking about different aspects of structure and possibly do not realize it. Makes for a more interesting discussion and they can both make a good case for their stance regarding Beckett and structure. This is part of what is interesting about Beckett and why many say his work is unstructured, we can see various underlying structures in Beckett's work but we can not say this or that is the structure he worked off of or that this or that structure is the one the reader works off of because we have these other structures which can be viewed as being just as important but no over reaching structure. A great deal has been written on Beckett's use/lack of use of structure.
>Motifs and symbols as structure are also visible in GRRM's work,
So you don't actually know what structure is and just want to stroke your cock in public?

>> No.22302224

>>22301819
Thanks. I would be curious to know what the other structures are that you mention, because I do feel like the overarching Dantesque structure and the author-character interweaving that constitutes its steps read as primary - I'm really not familiar with the scholarship so I'm just wondering.

>>22301738
I was discussing the actual events, characters, settings, etc. of the narrative, patterns in these things are structural patterns. I was just trying to elaborate on the purpose of the structure in order to make clear why it matters, but its structural properties remain regardless of their intended meaning or "symbolism" - the narrowing scope of interaction, of movement, of Molloy's interests and concerns, the failure of progressively more refined, attenuated and detached ways of being in the world. And of course the Molloy narrative is one-dimensional because it's only one side of the coin, in the later volumes you can see more clearly the two dimensions (identity of subject and intensity of focus) in their full interaction.

>> No.22303066

Opinions on the later prose works? I talked to an anon a little while ago who praised them highly but I don't really know much at all about them.

>> No.22303128

>>22300379
Jacques Moran, in a French novel… yeah sounds very Irish to me