/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22169761]

The movie turned reading the book obsolete.

[Anonymous No.22169775]

>>22169761
I agree, David Lynch is a master.

[Anonymous No.22169856]

I always feel bad for people born more recently than I was, because so many of the great things to read and discover on your own have been turned into shitty movies now. Every book like Dune and the Hobbit/LOTR was a huge deal to me as a kid, I felt like I was being initiated into a mystery or learning a rare secret when I found out about it and got a copy from the library or my parents. Then my next several weeks or months were booked. I didn't even like Dune that much, it had somewhat of an impact on me but it's certainly not an all time favorite, and I was too young to keep track of the whole plot anyway. And still, nothing can replace the feelings and images I still have from reading it as a teenager. I tried watching a bit of the movie, and even the Lynch one which had more soul, and it doesn't come close. It's just thinner by necessity because it's a movie. Humans weren't meant to process stories in this way, we were meant to induct into them for a long while until they felt like a place we actually lived in for a significant time in our lives. I've avoided the LOTR movies because I don't want them poisoning my experience of the books for the same reason, but I've seen enough of them in videos and stills to know that they don't capture anything like the FEELING of reading LOTR as a kid. That feeling of being the kid from the Neverending Story and having the sheer good luck to have an entire mystery and adventure to go on, all to yourself.

I can't imagine what damage has been done by raising people solely on "shallow" or "flat" media like movie adaptations and video games instead of deep reading. I even notice this dropoff in the character of other media, for example I grew up with Warhammer 40k codices when it was still a weird hobby to be into and it was hard to convince your parents to buy you overpriced plastic shit or another book. So you reread the one codex you could get your hands on from a friend's older brother getting rid of it, over and over, and the setting soaked into your mind. Everything was so rich, every accidental detail told a whole story. Now, GW has experienced decades of kids like young me growing up and forming a massive following for 40k, so they tried to "improve" it in a thousand different ways, streamlining the lore here, trimming it there, "updating" things to be more like other things that are currently popular, "fixing" "silly" things that some fluff writer went overboard with in 1992. But the effect has only been to make it look and feel like World of Warcraft, it's shallow and tinny now, none of the feeling of being in a huge dark cathedral lingers over any of the lore anymore, it's just another space opera with arbitrary guys acting arbitrarily.

[Anonymous No.22169858]

>>22169856
I recently read that Robot Girlyman is alive and well again and he went and had an audience with the corpse emperor, and I did get a mild frisson when I read it, as so much childhood anticipation and wonder paid off in a single moment of revelation, so much curiosity was cashed out in a single paragraph finally telling us just how conscious the emperor is, a dozen fan theories were dispelled and others confirmed, but throughout it all I couldn't help noticing that Robot Girlyman wasn't larger than life, the emperor wasn't even larger than life, it's just another character now. I had buyer's remorse from reading that "payoff," to the most mysterious thing about the lore of this beloved setting, something I've wanted to know for decades.

Any other setting I check in on is the same. I check back in on Halo, and the guys who built the rings are now just everyday space weirdos who act like normal humans if they were weird and from space. All the majesty and mystery is gone. The lore of the Diablo games used to be great, same thing, now it's over the top goofy Marvel meets World of Warcraft and shallow and thin. I watched a video comparing the dialog of the original Starcraft with Starcraft 2 once, and it's not just that it was quantitatively worse (which it was), it was that the generic quantitative dampening of quality from the increased goofiness and decreased intelligence of the writing caused a collapse of that "mystery" feeling. The original setting felt real, it felt like a self-sustaining world and not a thin tinny shallow interchangeable movie landscape to be inhabited for a few hours.

If I can notice all this, what the hell is happening to kids who don't even grow up with the original stuff? Why would you even want to see a movie adaptation of something? What is the point? If you've already read it, it's "kind of neat" to see someone's live action adaptation at best, but the neatness will be negated by all the shit they got wrong. Seeing some guy collapse the whole interesting world of Arrakis and the whole galaxy of Dune from the magic of ambiguous wonder into that instinctive "after all it's a place like any other, I guess it makes sense that it would be, right?" realism, or seeing LOTR go from this hazy mythological feeling dream-scape to "well I guess the book says he's a man with a bow and he shoots his bow fast and accurately, and we can depict that by having an actor do stunts and using CGI" just destroys something irreparably. Everything has become so "normal." I can't explain it. I remember just sitting and wondering what the fuck the precursor aliens were in the Homeworld setting, but I bet there's some new or rebooted Homeworld in which they are just evil space guys who act basically like normal humans.

[Anonymous No.22169860]

>>22169761
the movie is POZZED. they removed any references to 'jihad'

[Anonymous No.22169863]

>>22169858
Or look at the Reapers in the Mass Effect setting, they went from eldritch space gods barely able to even narrow their focus enough by squinting to talk to an individual biological entity to some kind of "I will get you! I don't like you so I'm gonna get you!" generic bad guy. Settings used to know how to make themselves seem BIGGER not smaller. When you add The Beast to the Homeworld lore/setting in Homeworld: Cataclysm, and don't explicitly relate it to the existing mythos or architectonic of the setting, it makes it seem like a bigger universe in which we only just so happen to have brushed the tips of a few interesting icebergs. When you say "The Beast is a precursor bioweapon designed by Radical Larry to conquer Hiigara, which was also important a billion years ago for basically the same reasons as it is now" you make the place feel small. Everything is infected by this, in the same way it's infected by making things too human, too mundane, and too realistic (Legolas is man with bow, he shoot fast bow, orc action scene).

Simply by depicting something in mundane physical form you are collapsing its wave-function of possibilities, you are taking the innumerable personal interpretations of a million children in the '80s and going "No, actually the city has exactly 51 buildings. What's unreasonable about that?? It's a city, right? Says right there in the book. Duncan Idaho is Recently Trending Actor with Good Agent!" Lovecraft's entire wave-function is collapsed into "big octopus tentacle man!" or "non-Euclidean means it'll kill you and you won't see it coming!!" Who cares? You think that's what made it terrifying, that I can't see it coming, but it's still basically just gonna bludgeon or bite me to death like a bear would?

They took the Necrons, something that generated imaginative emergent complexity out of an initially unimaginative and boring premise, and turned into gay space pirates with EPIC personalities. Primarchs are just guys. Duncan Idaho is Aquaman. Game of Thrones is obviously a massive wave-function collapse of the books, everybody becomes Just Some Guy. "What? The book says he's a large man who wields a scimitar, so we got a large actor and gave him a scimitar!!" I feel bad for today's children. It's like they can swim anywhere they want but the waters are all so shallow you're always standing and can never really feel that sudden sense of danger and distance from the shore that makes for good mystery. Some kind of emergent complexity catalysis takes place when you have sufficient distance from the shore, the right balance of detail and leaving it up to the imagination. I have "rich" mental panoramas for the most forgettable books, memory palaces in which I could go off in any direction and still find things to think and talk about. Are kids even forming those these days? At some point won't we just have a movie or a series for everything that used to enchant people? Certainly nobody is creating NEW books

[Anonymous No.22169876]

>>22169856
I think the problem is your exaggerative imagination instead of the movie adaptations

[Anonymous No.22169899]

>>22169856
>Humans weren't meant to process stories in this way, we were meant to induct into them for a long while until they felt like a place we actually lived in for a significant time in our lives
Beautiful anon. Probably the best sentence I've read on /lit/. Do you write for a living?

[Anonymous No.22169907]

>>22169899
I'm flattered, although I think I might just have autism like >>22169876 might be suggesting. I wish I could read something actually thoughtful on this problem, so I could think about it more clearly and figure out what to do about it. At the very least I know I am protecting my own kids from these tendencies, but I genuinely worry about all the zoomers who are being sold knock-offs of things that were great once, and not even realizing it. Who's going to convince a zoomer to read a 700-page book instead of just seeing the movie all their friends are seeing?

[Anonymous No.22169937]

>>22169907
>Who's going to convince a zoomer to read a 700-page book instead of just seeing the movie all their friends are seeing?
No one, but I don't think that was the case before screens either. I'm 42 and I don't remember any of my high school classmates reading any book whatsoever, let alone a 700 page one. Inmersive reading has always been enjoyed for a minority. If your kids have been privileged of receiving this inheritance, you have done your job, as my dad did his, and that's pretty much it.

[Anonymous No.22169973]

>>22169907
>>22169937
Gonna play devil's advocate for a bit as someone who never grew up as heavy reader. Reading has become something more associated with work due to the education system forcing us to mindlessly read boring bullshit, when we got home the last thing we wanted to do was read more, we wanted to play video games or watch tv. Hell, the only reason I really read now is to challenge myself, not because I find it "fun".Combine that with how technology has fucked zoomers attention spans and it makes complete sense why they would never read books willingly.

[Anonymous No.22170004]

>>22169973
I don't disagree with this. Technology has probably made it worst, but it's not like it was that different before. It was never easy to transmit the pleasure of diving into an inmersing book and becoming completely isolated from the rest of the universe. It's a satori like feeling that only a few can experience. In my case, it's due to my parents being heavy readers, and both of them having one parent that was a heavy reader in turn.

I don't think reading can be instilled on the educational system. If anything, it does instill a phobia to books, for the reasons you have provided. It's a family transmitted habit, one I thank both my parents for. Sadly, I don't have kids, but at least my sister is doing a great job with my 7 year old nephew, who probably reads more than I do nowadays. The flame is still alive.

[Anonymous No.22170035]

>Here is your Chani, bro.

[Anonymous No.22170069]

>>22169907
I want to point out that a lot of people were not happy with the Villeneuve movie, reasons being that it was too slow, boring, or incomprehensible. So it's not some kind of oversimplified, 200% speed zoomer movie. Many of the people who do like it (like me—10/10 movie) are the kinds of people who could also appreciate a 700 page book. I loved the movie and went straight to the book, which I hadn't read before.

Speaking about that movie in particular as it relates to the feeling of living in a story, for me it evoked that feeling more strongly than almost any other movie (Star Wars 1977?). The set design, sound design, acting and script combine to create a lived-in, immersive feeling. The wave-function aspect you refer to is inevitably lost to some extent in a visual medium, but I felt there was a "beyond the edge of the screen" type of feeling that stirred my imagination. So much of the film is wide, wide shot or close up. Not often in between. That style of cinematography gives the imagination some room. And in some ways, a movie actually gives more room for the imagination than does a book. In the book we are given inner monologue, but in the movie we are shown their face and have to imagine. The movie also encourages this, I think, in some of its shots that emphasize tactility (Paul's hand in the water on the beach, Let's hand on the back of Jessica's neck).

[Anonymous No.22170074]

>>22169973
Bullshit. The education system could literally feed you nothing but documentaries and khan academy videos and people would still go home and turn on their tv or computers.
It's not that Robin Williams wasn't your classics teacher that made you hate reading. You are just lazy, like everyone else.
Books are inherently boring, even for people who just want to kill time. They have to be read nonetheless. The alternative is not letting kids read starwars novels in class or socially relevant pamphlets.
Reading is a choir. Some people enjoy taking a shower, others don't. Both still have to do it if they want to be competent adults.

[Anonymous No.22170107]

>>22169856
>I've avoided the LOTR movies because I don't want them poisoning my experience of the books
While the movies are good, I would say keep avoiding them. I watched them a stupid amount of times when they came out and it ruined my ability to visualize the characters as anything but the actors.

[Anonymous No.22170127]

>>22169761
My ex has this on her bookshelf.
I know nothing else of it.

[Anonymous No.22170130]

>>22170074
Because Khan academy and documentaries are the same thing as watching SpongeBob or playing vidya, kids hate that shit too. Regardless of format when's things are introduced to children as boring work most will begin to hate it naturally, compare it to something like exercise where we are introduced to it by playing fun games outside, all of a sudden the current generations are obsessed with working out and the gym. Also I know a lot of lazy boomers that love to read so clearly the problem is deeper than that.

[Anonymous No.22170183]

>>22169761
I skipped rereading the first half because of the movie. He did a great job. I hope they do messiah after this next movie though.

[Anonymous No.22170400]

>>22169761
More than half way done but stopped for a while now
I kind of liked it but I don't have the motivation to finish it. Did I get filtered?

[Anonymous No.22170653]

>>22170035
It's literally a plot point in the series that Chani is plain looking but attractive and pleasant through her attitude, while princess Irulan is blindingly beautiful but about as sexy as a pile of sandpaper. It is a major reason for why she never manages to seduce Paul and remains a femcel seething at being bested at one thing she was biologically, scientifically and dynastically destined to do by some rando sandnigger broad with a cute smile.

It serves Herbert's theme of how chaotic natural processes ultimately trump all intelligent human efforts to control the universe around him, which he then retreads with Leto's Golden Path and Duncan Idaho's gholas.

I don't like Zendaya as an actress but a sexy bimbo as Chani would fuck up the adaptation way worse than black female Liet-Kynes, so that casting choice was ok.

[Anonymous No.22170769]

>>22169856
Exactly.
Movies and television definitely help ruin the imagination of literature the most by far, and narrowed the scope of what visions people may interpret, even if the adaptations they create end up being faithful or good all around. The medium itself does not intellectually engage the critical parts of your brain, and is only a passive medium IN itself. The visual mediums engages multiple senses like sight and sound masterfully, yet in doing so, sacrifices imagination and wonder, which is a far more truer technique to storytelling that stand the test of time.

Another point to make is that film uses technological advancement to create a more definite and a sort of "telos" to storytelling. However, as we all know, technology naturally progresses so quick (due to the human nature to innovate), that it makes previous equipment used in older films, obsolete. The end result being that older films feel and sound more dated and inaccessible. Books, on the other hand, don't even have this issue since you can just read the material, so long as it's legible.

I don't know, I just wish TV/film was half the medium people think it is. You just can’t make anything deep with it.

[Anonymous No.22170788]

>>22169761
I was looking forward to the movie because I imagined they would portray the extensive inner monologue, slights of mannerisms, the secret hand signs, etc in an interesting way. But instead they just took it all out and dumped money into the visuals.

The Dune series is amazing due to the amazing world building and inner character development. Why would they just remove all that shit? There wasn't even a moment where they lingered on the characters expression to show that they're heavily considering what to do and say. What a disappointment.

[Anonymous No.22171045]

>>22170788
>Why would they just remove all that shit? There wasn't even a moment where they lingered on the characters expression to show that they're heavily considering what to do and say.
This happened all over the place. It's the reason a lot of idiots said it was slow and boring. I thought it was a great movie. It's probably better that they didn't give the characters voiceovers or anything, instead opting for highly visual storytelling. Talking about the 2021 movie btw.

[Anonymous No.22171053]

>>22169761
lol, lmao, even

[Anonymous No.22171064]

>>22171045
>This happened all over the place. It's the reason a lot of idiots said it was slow and boring.
Literally didn't notice it. There were so many careful considered decisions and actions in the book while the movie just glossed over it.

[Anonymous No.22171548]

>>22169761
I know this movie sucks dick without having seen it because everyone I know who watched it completely misunderstood the themes of the story. Unironically saying things like 'why are they glorifying what paul is doing with the fremen?' The book is not obtuse in its themes. It says VERY explicitly over and over that Paul is a bad guy and he can't handle the power he has and bla bla bla. People It's a sci fi epic about politics and the human condition and human beings wrestling with an uncertain future and even if it's not perfect it's still great classic sci fi and this movie clearly did not explain enough shit well enough.

[Anonymous No.22171688]

>>22169761
The movie isn't even the whole book
Good bait, choke on this (You)

[Anonymous No.22171705]

how did the movie get released with such terrible music?

[Anonymous No.22172280]

>>22169856
>>22169858
>>22169863
While I certainly do enjoy going to the sci-fi section of the bookstore to find new things to read, I don't agree with your whole proposition that adaptions inherently are a bad thing. They aren't meant to take the place of books, they are supposed to provide a new way for fans to experience them. The issue here is simply that most adaptions these days are shitty. What's really the way people interact with books are clickbait video essays and Wikipedia summaries making it easy for anyone with a room temperature IQ to pretend they read something.

[Anonymous No.22172284]

>>22169761
Reading more than the first book is a trap. Stop after reading book 1. It's a masterpiece.

[Anonymous No.22173256]

>>22169761
>The movie turned reading the book obsolete.
This is honestly what the average person has thought of for years now, it’s kind of sad. Why spend time reading something when a mediocre interpretation (aka an adaptation) will come along down the line? Art and artistic integrity is so commodified now, it’s not even funny.

[Anonymous No.22174306]

>>22169775
fpbp

[Anonymous No.22174651]

>>22172284
I thought Messiah was a nice epilogue, completely agree don't bother with the rest though

[Anonymous No.22174716]

>>22171548
> It says VERY explicitly over and over that Paul is a bad guy
No it doesn't, not explicitly at least.

[Anonymous No.22174729]

>>22172284
Too late anon. /lit/ has memed me into reading sequels just for the sake of enjoying the God Emperor. I've been going through them for a couple of months now at a crawl speed, because of how terrible they are: I can muster a will to read a few pages a day and that's it. God Emperor of Dune must be really fucking good to justify this torture, which I'm sure it isn't but there is no going back now.

[Anonymous No.22175803]

>>22172284
Agreed, the sequels honestly ruin the first book imo.

[Anonymous No.22175813]

>>22172284
agreed.

[Anonymous No.22175821]

>>22174729
I, too, was seduced into reading II and III by the hinted glories of IV. They have tainted the original for me. I'm done with the Dune word. I can't fucking make myself read god Emperor. My 'to read' list is already far too deep.

[Anonymous No.22176819]

>>22174729
>God Emperor of Dune must be really fucking good to justify this torture
It is. Heretics is good too. Chapterhouse is bad, but not as terrible as Children, which is one of the worst books I've ever read. Messiah is bad but at least is short.

[Anonymous No.22177595]

>>22169860
Did they? Pretty sure they didn’t he has an entire flashback(forward) about it

[Anonymous No.22177887]

>>22176819
>It is
No way. So, are the dialogues suddenly become coherent after two books of author's schizo ramblings conveyed through characters?

[Anonymous No.22177891]

>>22177887
>So, are the dialogues suddenly become coherent
>criticizes Dune

Yep, checks out.

[Anonymous No.22177893]

>>22169761
>The movie turned reading the book obsolete.
Alan Smithee's best movie hands down.

[Anonymous No.22178231]

>>22170107
I generally have the opposite experience. I've never watched a movie that spoils a book, but I've read books that spoil the experience of a movie. Having some minor visualization or auralization biased to some actor whose interpretation is better than mine anyway is no big deal. But watching a movie over-simplify some subtle bit that I really enjoyed about the book pulls me out of a movie and can ruin a whole scene.

[Anonymous No.22178643]

>>22174729
Literally me
I just finished children last week, more than a year after I started it
Enjoyed messiah but holy shit children was a slog to get through

[Anonymous No.22178763]

>>22177595
they reference it but they don't use the word 'jihad'. They removed other references to Islam as well.