Book of the New Sun SPOILERS

[Anonymous No.22133440]

Discussion around BotNS and other Gene Wolfe works. If it's about other works, use the spoilerboxes. If in doubt at least warn someone.

I finished the entire solar cycle recently and I'm sad that it's over. There's only 1 Gene Wolfe. Also how come no one ever mentions that it's pretty much confirmed Severian married his twin sister? I mean based but he already fucked his grandma. What's going on big Gene?

[Anonymous No.22133447]

>>22133440
I'm still on The Sword of the Lictor.

Through the entire series, I can't bring myself to care about any of the characters or the world, but literally every single thing that ever happens is highly entertaining.

[Anonymous No.22133457]

>>22133440
By the time he marries Valeria he is no longer Severian but also Thecla and all those previous Autarchs. Also possible incest isn't uncommon among nobles anyways, don't want your kids to be short do you?

Also in real life there is such a thing as genetic sexual attraction. When adoptees reunite with their birth families they get so horny for each other so often that there's special theraphy they do now before they even meet them.

[Anonymous No.22133573]

I apreciate his style but after reading SoM and 5H i just think he becomes a parody of himself in the second and third part of the Solar Cycle.

[Anonymous No.22133628]

>>22133573
I see why some people dunk on his later work but I disagree that it's bad. He just writes as an old man would. Old Gene isn't unfathomably horny anymore like when he wrote BotNS. Some of his stories become unpretentiously YA or close. Pandora and Pirate Freedom come to mind, I love both. But I also read Charlie and the Chocolate Factory as an adult for the first time and loved it, maybe you can't get into it.

Borrowed Man and Interlibrary Loan were very late Wolfe and I enjoyed them.
Devil in a Forest is probably my least favourite novel of his and that's close to when he wrote Shadow of the Torturer.

[Anonymous No.22133660]

>>22133573
How so? He does lean in to some of his more annoying obfuscatory tendencies in his later books and does that annoying thing he does where characters talk about events rather than decribing things but I don't necessarily think he becomes a parody of himself. If anything, I feel like his style gets more understated compared to BoTNS.

[Anonymous No.22133661]

>>22133628
On second thought he was still pretty horny during short sun. I didn't think mermaids were the shit before I read the chapters with Seaweack. Now I need me a fish girl with green algae shimmering in her blonde hair.

[Anonymous No.22133695]

>>22133660
I feel like he just experimented more, he was quite careful not to write the same book twice after all.

You have stories like Pandora and Pirate Freedom where you don't have to read between lines at all. Especially Pirate Freedom is great despite it.

And then ridiculous stuff like The Sorcerer's House. I loved it but I won't become an expert on ancient greek coinage and eastern european folklore just to try and decipher all the mysteries.

[Anonymous No.22133734]

>>22133440
I finished the second story in the Fifth Head of Cerberus [Spoiler Warning], and I really liked it (although probably not as much as the first story), but how much of the second story should I even take as real? It is posited as a fictional story by Marsh, but it is interesting in that the Shadow Children at one point claim an origin in Atlantis and some other nations I don't remember that Number 5 suggested in the first story could be their origin (although the tutor states this origin is improbable). The Shadow Children go on to give different origins to themselves, but in the end, it is still a fictional story within the story. Should anything in it be taken as useful?

[Anonymous No.22133764]

I just love the Priest/Jedi/whatever you call it main character. I need more of it. Reading a book with a main character who is just that morally good has a good effect on my soul. It's like the opposite of reading Catcher in the Rye.

Examples I've come across:

Patera Silk from Long Sun.

Protagonist in Card's Speaker for the Dead (forgot the name).

Takuan the monk in Musashi (If you liked Musashi read Taiko it's by the same author but even better), even if he's just a side character.

I haven't read any Star Wars novels but I assume they don't get any better than the 40k Eisenstein (or whatever that inquisitor was called) books and those were already pretty crap.

[Anonymous No.22133801]

>>22133440
read BOTNS years ago and loved it, I ought to get around and read his other work. I have pic related on my shelf

[Anonymous No.22134000]

>>22133734
I didn't really understand that part myself, but I enjoyed the story in a national geographic fever dream kind of way.

I wish the first story was twice as long. It has a really nice mood. Hard to explain.

[Anonymous No.22134087]

>>22134000
>I wish the first story was twice as long. It has a really nice mood. Hard to explain.
I really agree. It had great atmosphere and character voice.

[Anonymous No.22134574]

>>22134087
Gene Wolfe is a master of making you feel cozy in a fucked up setting.

[Anonymous No.22135303]

>>22133734
All of the three stories are interconnected, so you might want to return to those questions after reading V.R.T.

[Anonymous No.22136119]

>>22135303
Yeah, I am probably jumping the gun talking about it. I just am really enjoying it, so I am trying to savor the reading as much as possible.

[Anonymous No.22136414]

>>22136119
Please report back after you finisht VRT

[Anonymous No.22137204]

What's the best visual depiction of Severian in your opinion? Close to the source or not.

I for one don't really like when he's depicted with a hockey mask or the lack of shirt is very apparent. Isn't it supposed to be cold?

[Anonymous No.22137417]

>>22137204
he's a kid, like 15 or 16 when he's exiled from the guild; but he is known to be tall. it is cold but it's tradition for them to wear just the cloak. he likely freezes to death on his journey out of thrax as well as likely dies falling off mount typhon lol[/spoilers]. in my mind the fuligin mask is just black with ivory bone trim.

[Anonymous No.22137434]

>>22133440
can you elaborate on your spoiler? from what i understood, if he had a sister, she would likely be in the witch's tower.

[Anonymous No.22137443]

>>22137204
>Isn't it supposed to be cold?
It's not exactly a tundra all the time. I imagine it's more like 60F~ in the summer in Nessus, since ladies are described as wearing dresses comfortably and Agia was walking around with a tit out without complaining. It surely was cold as fuck on Mount Typhon, though. Severian still wore a bare chest even when it was cold as a sign of devotion to the guild, or a sign of penitence.

[Anonymous No.22137451]

>>22137204
>>22137417
>>22137443
>what is adaptation

[Anonymous No.22137457]

>>22137451
You know how the Eskimos adapted to cold? They wore more fucking clothes

[Anonymous No.22137479]

>>22137457
Eskimos have short, squat bodies that contain heat more efficiently. They also have a higher ratio of body fat compared to other humans. Just as importantly, they are psychologically adapted to cold. The Eskimos are laughing at your reliance on clothing.

[Anonymous No.22137496]

>>22137417
>>22137443
In my mind it just looks a little silly and doesn't fit the world so well but I'm probably the majority. In my BOTNS mindfilm the cloak covers his chest for the very most part.

>>22137434
Sorry, but can't elaborate too much because people have written long very convincing paragraphs about it. I recommend the Wolfe subreddit, it's one of those few which aren't gay.
Rereading Wolfe podcast is also the best Gene Wolfe podcast.

HEAVY SPOILERS for BOTNS BEWARE !
Some things I remember clearly:

that their mother was probably a noblewoman who got sent to the torturers for sleeping or cheating with a commoner (Dorcas side of the family).

that both Severian and Valeria have twin names and hiding Valeria away rather than have her be a witch might be a gentler fate chosen by someone from the house absolute

that Gene Wolfe when asked about Valeria being Severians ideal love answered that she isn't. Him never making an official comment on their alluded to twincest might be him not wanting to hurt his wife. It's one of those things that go over everyone's head anyways.

[Anonymous No.22137502]

>>22137496
>I'm the majority
I mean minority. I'm also retarded.

This is a real picture of a weasel riding a bird by the way.

[Anonymous No.22137511]

>>22137502
Cool pic, anon.

[Anonymous No.22137549]

>>22137511
Thanks. I gotta say I wish I was that weasel.

For anybody that doesn't know how spoilerboxes work, use [spoilers] and [/spoilers] but without the last s. Probably should have mentioned that in the OP:

[Anonymous No.22137608]

>>22137496
>that both Severian and Valeria have twin names
I thought it was made abundantly clear that Severian's twin's name would be Severa, evidenced by little Severian and his twin sister Severa. I have no idea where you got the idea that Valeria was a twin name.

[Anonymous No.22137659]

>>22137451
the tall, lean severian must have adapted to the cold since eskimos could by being short and fat. the cloak is warm enough and can enclose the entire body. no idea why you even posted here because you probably haven't read the book. it was tradition to be bare chested under it.

[Anonymous No.22137744]

>>22137608
Both names are twin names of seperate pairs. If she was named Severa he might as well write sisterfucker Severian on the back page of the book. Severian - Severa, Valerian - Valeria.

Explanation for not using 1 pair of names could be to keep them apart, considering the circumstances of their conception, birth and upbringing.

When I'm on my phone I might be able to post some more convincing stuff.

[Anonymous No.22137778]

>>22137744
Oh yes and the biggest hint is the reference to Shakespeare's Twelfth night.

Viola: I am all the daughters of my father's house,
And all the brothers too.

Valeria: "I am all the sisters we breed. And all the sons."

[Anonymous No.22138347]

>>22137744
>>22137778
Wolfe in general loves playing with familial relations, platonic or not. It's in half of his work and it's always different too. The Sorcerer's House is a personal favourite.

[Anonymous No.22138461]

>>22137496
>In my mind it just looks a little silly
Torturers Guild uniform is supposed to really stand out, as well as look somewhat silly when it's not worn by a guy coming down to cut off your head or subject you to horrible torture.

[Anonymous No.22138474]

>>22133440
> it's pretty much confirmed Severian married his twin sister
How's that? Nobody I've seen really has a good answer for what's going on with whatshername in the Atrium of Time.

[Anonymous No.22138667]

>>22138474
Because Severian being a sisterfucker is the only good answer.

See:
>>22137496
>>22137744
>>22137778

[Anonymous No.22138697]

>>22138667
do you also think he's a pederast? because he specifically says he wasn't while journeying with little severian and the fact that he points this out means redditors propose he was in their theories.

[Anonymous No.22138728]

>>22138697
Maybe if you read the whole work from the understanding that Severian is the biggest piece of shit and it's all just lies and propaganda to make him look good. While it's nice that there can be such differing perspectives, I don't think this is the correct interpretation. Severian already paints himself as a piece of shit and when he does lie it's generally by omission, he is mostly to be trusted.

It could also be mentioned for other reasons, like as a simple piece of grim world building. They're still doing gay shit when the sun is going out...

[Anonymous No.22138772]

>>22138728
i agree. i look at severian as an unreliable narrator but usually unintentionally. the alzabo soup podcast guys are usually skeptical about everything but i'm usually disagreeing about the intent of it. i think he means well and if you go down that road of skepticism, you'd have to start doubting too much of his writing.

[Anonymous No.22138819]

>>22138772
Yes, usually. The twincest thing is one of those examples where it's a lie by omission with the truth still being alluded to. I wonder if Neil Gayman has anything to say about the topic.

Alzabo soup has covered tons already and despite them being a bit onions I quite like them. Rereading Wolfe Podcast is the best however and if you have twitter and you wanna learn something new related to Wolfe and his books everyday, they somehow find stuff all the time.

[Anonymous No.22139485]

>>22137496
>that their mother was probably a noblewoman who got sent to the torturers for sleeping or cheating with a commoner (Dorcas side of the family).
Valeria recounts her family lines perfectly, she isn't an orphan. She lives in her family house and knows her family history.
>that both Severian and Valeria have twin names and hiding Valeria away rather than have her be a witch might be a gentler fate chosen by someone from the house absolute
So why the gentler fate for Valeria, and not Severian? Why not send Valeria to the Witches Tower, and Severian into hiding? This theory is arbitrary.

>>22137744
This logic still makes no sense. You're working backwards creating evidence from a conclusion, rather than using evidence to come to a conclusion. Saying "it doesn't make sense because it would be too easy to figure out if it did" isn't evidence.

>>22137778
Viola and Sebastian aren't even romantically involved in the Twelfth Night. The reason she quotes this is the same reason she quotes the Latin phrases, because she was raised in isolation in her family's antiquated tower.

[Anonymous No.22139552]

>>22139485
Thank you for the well put response. Maybe saying it's confirmed was a bit much. Luckily I have found the post that originally convinced me, so if it won't do the same for you I certainly won't make any better arguments.

https://www.reddit.com/r/genewolfe/comments/u0j59n/enigmatic_valeria

If you wanna look for deeper meaning in the pages involving her it's the best theory I've seen and it seems like a Wolfe thing to do, I mean he did something not that different in the same work.

[Anonymous No.22139567]

why is /lit/ so obessed with this novel?

[Anonymous No.22140102]

>>22139567
I don't think that's true, I mean look at the amount of people posting in this thread. For some people (including me) BOTNS is just the best they've read and they want to talk about it.
I know not everyone who reads him feels that way about him. Wolfe zealots are probably more of a vocal minority.

I'm thankful to the person that introduced me.

>>22139485
>>22139552
Also remember Severian talking to Agia and her brother before the execution? I think some non-platonic things were hinted at. It almost seems like a hidden theme. I kind of want to open lexicon urthus again and see if it has anything about all the twins. There were also intriguing twin characters in the sorcerers house.

If you have read the super long post on reddit please tell me what you think, I would love to hear.

[Anonymous No.22140131]

>>22140102
about agia...it's completely possible she is hethor's runaway doll from his time as a pirate. her head makes a metallic clank when severian smashes it against the wall and it would explain why hethor is is pursuit of her. she also states later something along the lines of becoming the master of hethor now. nessus seems to be a spaceport of some sorts after all; especially with all the cacogens and the like residing in the thick, mountain like walls

[Anonymous No.22140398]

>>22140131
Completely missed the significance of the metallic clank. I think it's possible she was changed thanks to the company she keeps. But I will definately look into that more.

[Anonymous No.22140543]

>>22133440
What makes you think Valeria is Severian's Sister? Isn't she just a descendant of nobles not lucky enough to be frozen on Whorl? My only candidate for Severa is Jolenta, which isn't even her real name and she worked for Severian's dad nonetheless.
>>22137496
I'd sooner admit to fucking my sister than my grandma.
>>22137778
She's probably a Cold One or at least some prototype. The Atrium of Time is cold as well. Quite possibly a cryogenics workshop from Typhon's time.
>>22139567
It was my divine duty to read the Solar Cycle.
>>22140398
NTA, but what was the clank's significance?

[Anonymous No.22140569]

>>22139485
That art is so good. When the inevitable happens and Wolfe becomes mainstream I'm sure we're gonna suffer some shitty adaptions.

[Anonymous No.22140572]

>>22140543
Wait, did my own picrel give me an answer? Are Agilus and Agia Chems? Agia could be more girly like Marble, and Agilus more like Sandstone? Both of them are aligned to Hierogrammates like almost every citizen of Whorl. Agilus is always depicted wearing armor, Agia fucks around, but never gets pregnant. Dorcas does too, but I think she's had a hysterectomy. If Hethor's ship (Jonas' as well) is really the Whorl, it could make sense.

[Anonymous No.22140619]

>>22140543
>What makes you think
https://www.reddit.com/r/genewolfe/comments/u0j59n/enigmatic_valeria
5 minute read but very well researched. It's crazy how she appears in only a few pages but there's so much to read into.
>I'd sooner admit to fucking
Pretty sure Wolfe was interested in GSA at the time. He plays with family relations in every way possible in his stories, it only ever goes beyond platonic in BOTNS as far as i know.
>She's probably a
That's also a compelling theory. Read the link above and tell me what you think. It also goes into those kind of aspects.
>>22140572
If they're chems wouldn't that have been obvious during the execution?

[Anonymous No.22141141]

[Anonymous No.22141150]

What's the connection between the Hierogrammates and the Megatherians? And how does Typhon fit in with it? I haven't gotten around to Long or Short Sun yet, but am fine with spoilers. I know Typhon is Pas and that there is some talk of him being a Megatherian with the others mainly being his children with Echidna. The Megatherians seem aware of the Hieros and I believe Wolfe said in an interview that the Megs and Hieros are reacting against each other based off previous iterations of the past. So if Typhon is a humanoid version of the Megatherians, wouldn't he already be aware of the Hieros and their shenanigans all the way back in his Monarch days? Father Inire and the Cumaean are also pretty mysterious with how they fit in with this.

[Anonymous No.22141185]

>>22141150
>I haven't gotten around to Long or Short Sun yet, but am fine with spoilers
How can you do that to yourself? It's not worth it.

In my opinion Long and Short Sun should be experienced like New Sun, that is going in raw the first time with as little as possible prior knowledge. They are different experiences but still great.

Also I love Silk but New Sun > Short Sun > Long Sun for me.

[Anonymous No.22141192]

>>22141150
Have you read Urth yet?

[Anonymous No.22141198]

>>22141185
Haha I'm afraid even New Sun wasn't "raw" for me as I had seen so many spoilers prior to reading it. But I still greatly enjoyed it.

>>22141192
Yes.

[Anonymous No.22141250]

>>22141198
The hierogrammates are the connection to Yesod. The megatherians want control over Urth or at least a place in it after the new sun arrives. To this end they send their contender (Baldanders) and also try to get Severian on their side. That's how I remember it but it's been a while since I read BOTNS and Urth.

For the rest of your speculation you're gonna have to stay patient until you read Long Sun. I refuse to enable your self-spoiling habit, there's only so many greats you can authentically experience for the first time.

If that seems unappetizing to jump into right now remember there's also the short stories set in the same universe, best read inbetween the big novels in exact publication order. The Map and The Cat you could have already read.

And trust me, if I spoiled exactly what you ask for you wouldn't gain any satisfaction from it rather than learning it as you read the books.

[Anonymous No.22141273]

>>22140619
I'll read it tomorrow, for it's too late now. But first thing that comes to mind is that for some reason or another, Severian wrote Valeria out of the 2nd edition of BotNS (the one we're reading), same as he wrote Silkhorn and his party out of it because his encounter with them was too unbelieveable. I also wonder hoe Duko Rigoglio was connected to Severian's story.
>>22141250
The Cat was nice. Kind of Gormenghastly for BoTNS, but we learn more about exultants' way of life and the rumors they spread for fun. It reminded me of some old historical records which look true and official, but are riddled with bullshit because their author wanted to write something cool.

Unrelated to anything, I'm reading the Knight currently. I don't know if I'm tired of Wolfe or was Wolfe tired of his fans by the time he wrote that book. It's way too thick for its own good and unreliable narrators from the Solar Cycle were at least set in an interesting world. Able is like Cugel the Clever trying to be a knight. Way more childishly wicked than Severian is. I'm glad I didn't listen to redditors who say you should start with the Wizard/Knight. But still, talking about SC is way more fun than actually reading it, at least the first time. The only really exciting part was Calde of the Long Sun. That shit was crazy!

[Anonymous No.22141279]

>>22141250
N-need m-more sp-sp-spoilers...

Nah, but I appreciate it bro. I wont seek them out anymore.

[Anonymous No.22141286]

>>22133440
Any suggestions on where to go next? Finished the whole solar cycle and loved it but I recently tried to read the wizard knight and by the time I made it about 100 pages into the second book I could not care less about what was going on.

[Anonymous No.22141326]

>>22141273
>I'll read it tomorrow, for it's too late now.
I'll be sleeping too, hopefully the thread lives. If not would be cool if you can just start a new one.
>But first thing that comes to mind is that for some reason or another, Severian wrote...
I fucking loved that part when I got to it. It was almost like BOTNS fanservice. To be in the cosy oubliette again...
>The Cat was nice.
I much preferred The Map. It's like a classic adventure story. What's waiting in the end? Shiny artefacts of unknown power? No, lessons about betrayal. But it was enjoyable. The Cat just made me feel so bad for the girl.

And his different books hit different for different people. I have enjoyed all of them so far with the worst being Devil in a Forest for me. I had the same experience as:
>>22141286
with The Knight but I'm confident I'll get into it on a subsequent try. I'm rationing the remaining Wolfe stories I haven't read, having some big novels left gives me a happy feeling.
>Any suggestions on where to go next?
Sorcerer's House if you want a wacky fun story.
Pirate Freedom if you wanna read Gene Wolfe with everything straight on the table, no reading between lines, and lots of Piracy.
Fifth Head if you haven't already.

>>22141279
Good on you, man. If there were any wonderful twists for you to enjoy and secrets you could figure out yourself left over in BOTNS, there's more of those ahead. Otherwise don't expect more of the same.

[Anonymous No.22141352]

>>22140131
>>22140572
Agilus and Agia are definitely weird, and I've always thought there was something unnatural about them. Especially since they're identical twins of different genders (which is impossible). Either they're not identical twins but somehow look exactly the same, or there's some weird cloning shit going on, or they are actually identical twins of the same gender and one of them is hiding it.
Ultimately though I don't think they're chems because their naming structure matches with other humans in the book. They're both named after Catholic saints, like all the other humans. If they were chems, they would be named like Dr Talos, or named after stones like in Long Sun

[Anonymous No.22141384]

>>22141352
I find the whole theme of twins is underdiscussed. They're absolutely everywhere in BOTNS.
Severian has a twin name. We even get a little Severian and Severa later driving this home for the very last reader. Agia and Agilus. Whoever Valeria is, she has a twin name and there's references to Shakespeare again just to drive the point home: she is a twin.

Did I forget about any worldbuilding that made twins very common? Or did I miss the blogpost that points out how I missed the obvious symbolic meanings of twins?

[Anonymous No.22141401]

>>22141352
>>22141384
Oh and additionally:
>Especially since they're identical twins of different genders (which is impossible)
2 pairs of male - female twins
2 lone twins, their names implying an opposite sex counterpart

I've very rarely seen male-female twins in real life in comparison to same-sex twins.

[Anonymous No.22141466]

>>22141286
I would suggest sticking with the Wizard. The first half or so is rough but it really picks up after that. I really enjoyed the last 200 pages or so a lot, after he starts to sideline a lot of the less compelling side characters.

[Anonymous No.22141747]

[Anonymous No.22141787]

>>22133440
I'm halfway through citadel and I'm realising that the journey is nearly over. I'm taking a little break and only reading it sparingly because I have really fallen in love with this weird and mysterious world Wolfe has made. I know there's more, but I feel like I don't need more, I just need to appreciate what I have. How much of Wolfe's other work has the same tone or atmosphere as botns? Will I be disappointed looking at the rest of his work for something of the same nature?

[Anonymous No.22141883]

>>22138667
>is the only good answer.
Exactly what I mean, no one understands Valeria I'm going to have to figure it out myself.
All you guys are saying is both their names have opposite-gender forms and you think it personally makes sense, all due respect that means nothing.

[Anonymous No.22141890]

>>22141352
>or there's some weird cloning shit going on
That is patently obvious. We are shown and told outright in Long Sun that people can be grown in vats in this world and genetically engineered to purpose. Noblewomen are cloned to work as prostitutes and there are chimera-people.

[Anonymous No.22142047]

The book of Silk is just not that good you know

[Anonymous No.22142242]

Member Vodalus?
Member the exultants?
Member Master Ultan's library? Member that crystal which holds more books than entire libraries?
Member the ape men?
Member House Absolute?
Member thr Koreans?
Member the theater?
Member the rape?
Member Jonas?
Member the armigers?
Member the alzabo?
Member the zoanthrops?
Member Typhon and Pieton?
Member Barbatus, Famulimus and Ossipago?
Member Baldanders?
Member the falchion?
Member the revolver?
Member Loyal to the Group of Seventeen?
Member the Green Man?
Member the homunculus in the jar?
Member when there weren't so many cacogens?
Member Tzadkiel?
Member the ghost in the armor?
Member Valeria?
Member Apu Punchau?
Member the ball game?
Member when Silk was mooching off Blood?
Member Oreb?
Member the talus?
Member the dead prostitute?
Member the azoth?
Member Mucor?
Member the lynxes?
Member Dr. Crane?
Member the tunnels?
Member the windows?
Member the sleepers?
Member the submarine?
Member Rose's security footage?
Member Mint?
Member Marble?
Member the airship?
Member the all-female bisexual army?
Member the Mainframe?
Member the suicide attempt?
Member the teenage sex?
Member Quetzal?
Member when there were only white people in the story?
Member the Lizard Island?
Member Nettle?
Member Sinew?
Member Babbie?
Member the rape?
Member the dozens of concubines?
Member Krait?
Member the Neighbors?
Member the dead husbands?
Member the lusty maid? Who did she fuck?
Member Duko Rigoglio?
Member the rape?
Member Auk? Where is he?
Member Jahlee?
Member the Torturers?
Member the secret?
Member Pig? I didn't understand a word he said.
Member the surgery?
Member the wedding?
Member the exorcism?

[Anonymous No.22142284]

>>22141787
there's always urth of the new sun to read. it's a more sci fi book for the first half but the second half is magical.

[Anonymous No.22142320]

>>22140102
>I think some non-platonic things were hinted at
Agia flat out stated that, but then again it's Agia, and she was desperately trying to manipulate Severian like she always does.

[Anonymous No.22142468]

>>22141384
I don't want to sound like I come from /x/ or /pol/, but there was something going on with twins in Brazil, and BotNS is set in South America.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A2ndido_God%C3%B3i

[Anonymous No.22142482]

>>22141883
i agree. it's a bit too much. i'm of the opinion severian doesn't write too much about her because he does genuinely love her. he spends 10 years with her following citadel before his journey where he vanishes for 40 years. i think he's hurt and broken up about it when he returns near the book's conclusion.

[Anonymous No.22142997]

[Anonymous No.22143162]

>>22142482
>i think he's hurt and broken up about it when he returns near the book's conclusion
Shit was too bittersweet. I for one choose to believe Dux Caesidus is a clone.
Valeria is best girl despite her little presence.

>“You see, you have found some comfort here. You are worried about your dog because he is lame. But he, too, may have found hospitality. You love him, so another may love him. You love him, so you may love another.”

[Anonymous No.22143186]

>>22142242
>he doesn't even member Hyacinth, the most important character of 2/3rds of the solar cycle

[Anonymous No.22143213]

>>22142997
I read Past Master by Lafferty and it was nice but not great. I also read Cugels adventures by Vance and I both liked and disliked the experience (people told me I should read Lyonesse if I dislike Cugel, so I will probably do that next).

So far only Wolfe scratches the Wolfe itch for me. Good thing I still have some Wolfe left. I also probably should try Borges but I am unable to read in the original spanish.

[Anonymous No.22143229]

>>22143186
She's the worst girl, easily forgettable.

[Anonymous No.22143245]

>>22143186
>>22143229
I liked her but she was a sad character. The only reason she worked is because she was with Silk. Auk is a scumbag who doesn't deserve better than a whore like Chenille. Silk is better than us all, able to look beyond the whoring, somehow making it kind of wholesome again. That's how I felt about it at least.

[Anonymous No.22143301]

>>22143245
You have a lot more empathy than I, friend. For me, she's just a dead hooker.

[Anonymous No.22143318]

>>22142242
I have to say I don't remember:
>The falchion and the revolver
>Homunculus in a jar
>The ball game
>the dead husbands

Also I don't remember femdom army being bisexual. Are they also the non-whites you talk about? Or do you mean the people of Gaon?

Member the rape? You mean Jolenta?

Member Auk? Where is he? Green

[Anonymous No.22143341]

>>22143318
>femdom army
Tell me more

[Anonymous No.22143378]

>>22143301
I'm no better than you. I have had one 8 year relationship with a girl who was a virgin previously and I cannot imagine courting a woman who was whoring around before.
Not that it's bad to stay pure, but I'm a hypocrite about it and there's certainly pride and insecurity playing their part in the way I feel too.
>>22143341
Don't get your hopes up, no one steps on anyone's balls.

[Anonymous No.22143498]

>>22142320
> she was desperately trying to manipulate Severian like she always does.
I didn't mean that. When Severian visits the cell of Agilus he literally catches the twins together naked.

[Anonymous No.22143517]

>>22143498
yea, and it's actually agilus that says any assumptions made about the two are right; meaning the plan to kill and rob severian as well as them having sex.

>>22143162
i think gunnie's betrayal might have softened the blow a bit, but his insistence on finding out if valeria remarried and then watching her die from an assassin he unintentionally revived probably crushed him. might have been a huge part of the reason he hurled himself overboard after the waters came and cleansed the planet. i remember thinking urth wasn't as good as the previous 4 but after completing it, it's probably my favorite of the 5.

[Anonymous No.22143947]

>>22143517
>yea, and it's actually agilus that says any assumptions made about the two are right; meaning the plan to kill and rob severian as well as them having sex.
They're certainly more to them. Is there any way to explain away the hint that Agilus is masked when they're in a cell together? Maybe them living in a costume shop made them just love dressing up?
Am listening to this:
https://rereadingwolfe.podbean.com/e/tbotns-1-29-agilus/
while doing some chores and I really had forgotten about most of that stuff.

>gunnie's betrayal might have softened the blow a bit
I think Gunnie is probably tied with Jolenta as one of the women that Severian had the least feelings for
>his insistence on finding out if valeria remarried and then watching her die from an assassin he unintentionally revived probably crushed him
I think the fact that Caesidus looks eerily like Severian makes it bearable. Feels like Wolfe saying that if Odysseus' wife could have cloned Odysseus she probably would have. The rest yes RIP Valeria I cry evry tim

>i remember thinking urth wasn't as good as the previous 4 but after completing it, it's probably my favorite of the 5.
I loved it but it was certainly different. I love the place where Urth is, not a part of the first 4 books but belonging to them.

How did you guys react when you were ready for everything to wrap up in Citadel and you get to the short story competition? What about when he comes back to a crater?

[Anonymous No.22144062]

>>22143947
the only thing i can remember is severian saying the ribbons were still showing, but that was in the costume shop after he saw agilus' real face(same as in the cell). i take that was more of a sarcastic remark as if agilus was still pretending or acting while suggesting severian's outfit was a costume he wanted to shock his friends with.

[Anonymous No.22144114]

>>22142047
some people prefer it to both botns and botss

[Anonymous No.22144125]

>>22143947
I liked the stories. Especially the angel talking about how no matter how high he flies compared to the animals he is still infinitely far from God. Then when Severian returns it's like a punch to the gut. I think the woman asks Severian to remember their stories right before she dies and of course because of his memory he fulfills that promise. Really touching moment. I was also shocked (no pun intended) when Lil Sev died. His death seemed so cruel and Wolfe's description of him being charred and crumpling up... ouch. It was nice seeing Severian be a father figure for a bit.

[Anonymous No.22144133]

All these spoiler bars made me finally notice that they have weird gaps when the text has a g, y, or parentheses. It's really going to bother me from now on.

[Anonymous No.22144179]

>>22144133
Now I don't see it anymore. I'm probably just mentally ill or have eye cancer. Knock on wood.

[Anonymous No.22144470]

>>22143378
how did you know? i have the same case, except it only lasted for 2 years when I was 17-20. never reconsidered my views. another reason why valeria, is the best girl in the series.

[Anonymous No.22144590]

>>22143162
>"You love him, so another may love him. You love him, so you may love another."
This is my favorite line in my favorite series. This line is when I realized I'm reading a masterpiece. Just picture this being said by a dark haired teenage girl wearing her grandma's fur cloak on a snowy day.

[Anonymous No.22144666]

>>22144125
I likewise enjoyed the story of the Cock, and I really didn't expect to when it started. And I feel the same way about the rest of what you've written. Were little Sev and Severa just introduced to fucking die? Those and the jungle chapters, trying to remember them now feels like a fever dream. I should reread those parts.

>>22144470
Purity is best, but if you're like me and took a girl's innocence and want the same thing again: the maths doesn't add up, you have to agree.

>another reason why valeria, is the best girl in the series.
Absolutely. I also liked Seawrack.
What are your thoughts on Autarch-Severian deciding that this is the girl he must court?
Was she frozen in time by Ymar? There are so many interesting theories that I cannot recall at the moment.

[Anonymous No.22144686]

>>22144590
You're my brother from another mother. Let's have our children marry each other.

[Anonymous No.22144734]

>>22144666
She's the girl who caused the least amount of drama in his travels. Valeria is an armiger, not an exultant, so her family is not so dangerous, and that also means she's hierodule-oriented instead of hierogrammate-oriented exultants and khabits. A Kwisatz Haderach, I mean an autarch would certainly prefer a mate of the caste subservient to him. Exultants are always looking to fuck the autarchs over because they're scared of the new Sun and want to reconquer the known universe. I guess like most vassals, they try to stay away from their senior, most notably on the Moon. The less fortunate ones are kept safe in the tunnels of House Absolute like hostages. Torturers' Guild is the most extreme kind of welcome the autarchs keep for their honored guests.
Back to Valeria, I am not sure if she's just a descendant of a noble dynasty down on its luck, maybe she's related to Typhon as well and only her personality was stored in the Mainframe? Michael Andre-Dirussi interprets her as Severian's maternal grandmother. She could be a Bene Gesserit, I mean Pelerine ploy set up for Severian as his perfect mate, same as Hy was for Silk. I don't want to overthink because Wolfe wrote everything to bait his readers into over-analyzing every character he wrote.

[Anonymous No.22144752]

>>22144734
Fuck, I forgot to conclude...
Her purpose is to trigger the great flood. Nothing more, nothing less. She's the only person who had such emotional impact on Severian. Nobody else could do it except for Lil Severian if he lived long enough.

[Anonymous No.22144779]

>>22144062
You convinced me. Makes more sense that way.
>>22144734
You're very good at summarizing BotNS. I'm not sure if I forgot a lot of this or if it went over my head.

[Anonymous No.22144816]

>>22141326
>his different books hit different for different people.
That's the truth for sure. I enjoyed BOTNS, but Long Sun was a lot more enjoyable for me. Silk is certainly a more likeable/relatable protagonist.
And I really really like the Latro books as well.

[Anonymous No.22144825]

>>22144779
I'm nothing special, but I studied history at the university, so I'm used summarizing. The exultant/armiger rivalry is a common thing in history. We have the old nobility whose political goals oppose the new nobility. Think of optimates and populares in early Rome, domestics vs praetorians in late Rome, Anglo-Saxons vs Normans (or Gaels vs Normans), Soga clan vs Mononobe clan in early medieval Japan... That's just examples I can name on the spot.

[Anonymous No.22144829]

>>22144752
If she's the chosen one to trigger the flood, how come the previous autarch didn't court her before trying to bring the new sun?

I mean if they had known back then that no one's going to do it until Severian comes along, why risk your nuts in Yesod?
And if they didn't know, why save her for Severian?

[Anonymous No.22144873]

>>22144816
Ah, a Long Sun preferer. Very interesting...

Yes, Silk is an amazing protagonist. Reading along to his adventures can be therapeutic for me because he's just so good in a believable way. I'm still looking for other books that do the wise priest trope similar justice.

[Anonymous No.22144882]

>>22144829
Because she was tailored for Severian, not for Appian. Besides, Appian seems gay, so being an eunuch was probably not as big of a deal for him. Since he's associated with bees, he reminds me of the Merovingians, who came close to defining early medieval Europe, but failed while being so close to success. Also Napoleon I and III. All of them used bees as their symbols.
If Valeria's a natural human being, she was too young for Appian anyway.
>I mean if they had known back then that no one's going to do it until Severian comes along, why risk your nuts in Yesod?
Only Ymar, Appian and Severian are confirmed to have went to Yesod.
I have no idea for your last question.

[Anonymous No.22144901]

>>22144829
>>22144882
In regards to Appian. If memory serves, there is a moment in Urth when Severian learns the Hierogrammates already knew Severian would pass the test and that he was the chosen one. They knew Appian wasn't the one and Severian said he could feel Appian inside him begin to rage. I chalk it up to the Hierogrammates having Appian go through with it anyways because him going there, failing, and being castrated were all still necessary steps for Severian to succeed. The Hierogrammates can see a fuller picture and so know what needs to happen for such and such events to occur.

[Anonymous No.22144932]

>>22144901
I forgot that Appian was raging lol! If someone ever makes that level of suffering/deserved chart, please put him at the top right corner.

[Anonymous No.22144954]

>>22144825
I wish I would have had the drive to study History. Always been passionate about it but I gave up on it early because I thought if I study it I will be either a history teacher or jobless.

I recommend you Taiko by Eiji Yoshikawa if you enjoy the life story of Hideyoshi. It's one of those great books no one reads.

Also I don't remember where but Gene Wolfe wrote about how aristocracies naturally come about if the conditions allow for it, giving the modern Texas ranchers as an example (with cattlebrands as family crests).

>>22144882
Makes a lot more sense to me now, thank you. I also figured Appian might value his balls less than most men.
>I have no idea for your last question.
It does make sense if Ymar created her for a future contender and Appian wasn't interested or if Appian created her for Severian specifically like you said. I think. How do all the hints at her being a twin fit into all this?
>>22144901
I didn't remember that part, thanks.

[Anonymous No.22145017]

>>22144932
Is Thecla your waifu? I mean the autarchy was pretty cruel but I'm sure a lot of it was seen as necessary.

Appian might have been a fag and I don't like them as much as the next guy. However he did lead his troops in battle, tried to bring the new sun and he ensured the succession to Severian, really doing his part.

And what about father Inire?

[Anonymous No.22145041]

If you were an editor how would you publish the solar cycle books.
I would try to publish omnibus versions of TBotNS (4books), TBotSS (4books) and TBotLS (3 books + Urth).
No short stories, no guides.

[Anonymous No.22145050]

>>22145041
Each novel sold separately, a tie-in of short stories for the end. Hardcover only, Lots of illustrations.

[Anonymous No.22145068]

>>22145041
I like the short stories. I would keep them in and have them along with everything else in publication order.

No or only an extremely brief foreword.

Some minimal illustrations with little detail, never having an important character's face in the frame. Faces are generally obscured by perspective, lighting, etc.

Otherwise same as you.

[Anonymous No.22145104]

Wouldn't it be funny if we all discussed the lore in the future tense? Except for the Apu Punchau stuff?

[Anonymous No.22145170]

Guys, what books/stories should I read to understand references in Wolfe's work? Assume I've read virtually no ancient literature.
I've read Wizard Knight and BotNS/Urth.
I noticed that one of the stories in BotNS is basically Theseus and the Minotaur, and WK is steeped in Arthurian and Norse legend but I don't know good books to check out. I figure Sir Gawain and the Green Knight by Tolkien, and the Prose Edda are good starts for WK, but am basically clueless on relevant works for BotNS. I was also told that reading Herodotus's Histories is a good primer for the Soldier books.

[Anonymous No.22145175]

Here's your citadel, bro

[Anonymous No.22145179]

>>22145041
New Sun split in 2 parts, Long Sun in 2 parts, Short Sun in one giant omnibus. I wouldn't publish the Urth.

[Anonymous No.22145198]

>>22145175
The Citadel is just crashed Whorl??
>>22145170
Osprey books on ancient warfare, and browse Wikipedia to learn about lives of the saints. Try to learn some basic Latin and Greek.

[Anonymous No.22145380]

>>22144954
>It does make sense if Ymar created her for a future contender and Appian wasn't interested or if Appian created her for Severian specifically like you said. I think. How do all the hints at her being a twin fit into all this?
If she was a lab creation I don't see why her being a twin is important.
If she was a twin but it's just about her similar fate to Severian, why have her look so similar to him?

I'm convinced she is his sister and it shouldn't be so shocking. There are two more incestual couplings in this story.

[Anonymous No.22146047]

[Anonymous No.22146056]

[Anonymous No.22146093]

>>22146056
Severian and the undine is the best motiv for a cover imo.

[Anonymous No.22146107]

What is the Sleeper?

[Anonymous No.22146699]

>>22146056
the beefiest 15 year old in the world :D
>>22146093
it's such a shame the company got defunct and the comic got cancelled. the art was very nice.

[Anonymous No.22146726]

>>22146699
>the beefiest 15 year old in the world :D
It looks really silly doesn't it.
>it's such a shame the company got defunct and the comic got cancelled. the art was very nice.
Book of Fuligin should be out soon, I hope it won't suck.

I am thankful that there's no major adaptions yet and people are still largely drawing from their headmovies when making art for the solar cycle.

[Anonymous No.22146734]

>>22146726
yeah, the art is really out there considering Severian eats mostly lentils and beans.
I tried it, it was tasty, but it wouldn't fill me after a workout session or anything.

[Anonymous No.22146745]

>>22146734
are you a grill?

[Anonymous No.22146749]

>>22146745
nope. the only girl who's read botns was that tv show lady whom gene wolfe was speaking to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGov82cX4hI

[Anonymous No.22146750]

>>22143213
Cugel is such an asshole, kek
You might like Fritz Leiber books if you haven't read them (Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser), they are similar but more light hearted

[Anonymous No.22146768]

>>22146749
I had a deal with my ex-gf that I'd read Death on the Nile and in return she's read Shadow of the Torturer. I held up my end and she didn't, then again she had a phobia of torture (if that's a phobia), she didn't even want to hear it mentioned.

>>22146750
>Cugel is such an asshole, kek
Yeah, I'm sure if anyone animated they could just use the sigma male music as the entire soundtrack
>Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser
I just looked it up and it sounds cool. I'm 6 foot 8 so I'm for sure going to self-insert as Fafhrd. I can't tell if the author is a jew or not, not that I can't appreciate a jew who doesn't suck.

[Anonymous No.22146785]

>>22146768
>she had a phobia of torture
good... good.
>they could just use the sigma male music as the entire soundtrack
Now I need to reread Cugel books with sigma music. If redpilled sigmas actually read, they'd enjoy Cugel much more than American Psycho and Fight Club since he's more sociopathic than those schizos.

[Anonymous No.22146786]

>>22146107
severian.

[Anonymous No.22146824]

Any good videos that explain BOTS to brainlets?

[Anonymous No.22146831]

>>22146824
moid does a few youtube sessions with alzabo soup podcast guys going over all the books and even an q and a session. alzabo soup guys have an episode for each chapter in the books where they basically go line by line through it and analyze everything wolfe could mean.

[Anonymous No.22146837]

>>22146824
Tvtropes dot org
I think many videos drawn from their interpretations

[Anonymous No.22146874]

>>22146785
>good... good.
How so? Her phobias drove me crazy.
The title "Shadow of the Torturer" attracts men and repels women, I think. I think Dorcas said that all men are torturers?

It's funny because Citadel contains the in my opinion best argument against torture:
>By our mercy we will grant even the foulest a quick death. Not because we pity them, but because it is intolerable that good men should spend a lifetime dispensing pain.

If torture is something that interests you (not as in you enjoy it, get out Hethor) this is a fascinating podcast on the subject:
https://myth20c.wordpress.com/2019/05/22/standard-operating-procedure-torture-and-the-abu-ghraib-scandal/

>If redpilled sigmas actually read, they'd enjoy Cugel much more than American Psycho and Fight Club since he's more sociopathic than those schizos.
When he curbstomped seashells that was quite something.

[Anonymous No.22146881]

>>22146831
>>22146837
Cheers.

[Anonymous No.22146900]

>>22133440
Fellow Wolfe fans recommend me science fiction and fantasy that you like as well. I've read just about everything that's generally seen as liked if you like Wolfe so it's difficult to find a good source of new books. I've also read everything Wolfe wrote.

[Anonymous No.22146909]

>>22146900
>I've read just about everything that's generally seen as liked if you like Wolfe so it's difficult to find a good source of new books. I've also read everything Wolfe wrote.
First off, I kneel. I am also glad the heavy crown doesn't rest on my head.
>recommend me science fiction and fantasy that you like as well
It's a bit out there but you could give Card's Speaker for the Dead a try if you haven't. Don't read Ender's Game tho. It's not Wolfe quality but the main character feels a little like Silk.

[Anonymous No.22146981]

>>22146824
No. Just ask us what you want to know. It's really not that complicated.
Fine, if you want a spoilery talk about the content of the books, look for Media Death Cult, but he doesn't go into great depths about the really fun part, which is the Solar Cycle setting.

[Anonymous No.22146998]

>>22146909
>I am glad the heavy crown doesn't rest on my head.
It gets annoying, after a while science fiction and fantasy become incredibly mediocre reads, I'm left with progressive feminist garbage on one side or alternatively, I can read Warhammer between serious novels. There's only so many writers as good as Wolfe, Vance, Leiber, Dick, Lafferty etc. I've actually read Ender's Game, but haven't read Speaker because it sounds like very weird Mormon preaching (in a bad way). But I could give it a shot.

[Anonymous No.22147056]

>>22146900
>I've also read everything Wolfe wrote.
You've exposed yourself as viable for interrogation.
I would love to hear your thoughts on:
>Sorcerer's House
>Pirate Freedom
>A borrowed Man (if it's possible without spoiling Interlibrary Loan, haven't read that yet)

And only if you're feeling really generous, don't feel compelled to:
>Pandora
>Devil in a Forest

Pls pls pls... Everyone only ever reads the Solar Cycle, Latro and Wizard Knight. I would love to see how you felt about these books.

[Anonymous No.22147084]

>>22147056
With even my best intentions I didn't really like any of these, his "standalone" books are all quite simple on the surface and supposedly deep on the cryptic end. Which is a bad balance. The surface world and plot usually stay vague with only hints of the most interesting parts (such as Borrowed Man and Interlibrary Loan, Sorcerer's House, etc.). And the cryptic symbolic stuff is buried so deep I never really sensed it. So they read as if they are adventure novels from a writer who was never really that good at writing fun adventures. The only novel that I've liked in this area was A Land Across. It was surreal, and things rarely made sense, but it was fun and had a rich atmosphere sprinkled with heavy doses of milf sexual tension. I know most about Solar, Latro and TWK for the simple reason that I've read these multiple times, Latro twice, TWK twice, New Sun 5 times and the rest of Solar Cycle twice. They really are the best he has to offer. It's often jarring how great of a difference there is between his great works and lesser ones. I was particularly surprised by how good Long Sun was on the second read. I felt like I was reading a great era epic, rather than a science fiction novel.

[Anonymous No.22147131]

>>22147084
I probably just have a small brain in my big head because I enjoyed them all, even Pandora and Devil, and they were the worst for me. Seeing that you don't like his simpler work Pirate Freedom probably didn't do anything for you but I loved it.

I must confess I technically haven't even finished Solar. I've been at the part where Jahlee fucking dies for months now, every now and then reading the last few pages I've read before plus another one or two I haven't. I'm dreading it being over.

I did a large break between Long Sun and Short Sun reading many of his standalone books. If Latro and TWK stand out so much it makes me very happy because I've gotten about 100 pages into each before deciding to save them for later.

[Anonymous No.22147157]

>>22147131
TWK is probably the best fantasy novel written since LotR. It's incredibly fun, heroic, and rich in language and the world is engaging and original. I'm considering just picking it up once more again.

[Anonymous No.22147166]

>>22147157
Maybe I should have dared my ex-gf to read TWK instead of BotNS. She is a Tolkien freak. I still have a little elvish dictionary, we would play "Quenya or Sindarin", I am not kidding she never once got a word wrong just from hearing it. I must win her back bros.

[Anonymous No.22147286]

>>22147166
No, you don't. What you need is a younger woman.

[Anonymous No.22147341]

>>22147286
That's scary. How the fuck did you know? I'm 28 now and she's 5 years older than me.

[Anonymous No.22147440]

>>22147341
Even more reason to look for a younger one. Your ex is probably infertile and hysteric by now. Never date women older than 25. They simply mature way too fast.

[Anonymous No.22147479]

>>22147440
She was 25 when I met her. Very importantly for me she was also still a virgin. I love her still, I messed up the relationship by being a complacent piece of shit and betraying her in multiple ways.
The thought of this wonderful woman I never deserved in the first place not having children and/or growing old alone makes me want to kill myself. I can't hold back the tears writing this.
I've never been so depressed in my life. Sorry for bothering you with this, I really deserve all I'm going trough and worse but I have to get it out somewhere.

[Anonymous No.22147495]

>>22147479
That's some real Silk attitude. Just do what Horn would do in your place.

[Anonymous No.22147525]

>>22147495
Hah, Silk wouldn't have betrayed Hyacinth. I think Horn would try and return to Nettle.

Currently my plan is to go into 6-week intensive therapy (already signed up for it) in a clinic to deal with my addictions and other issues. Maybe I'll come out good enough to win her back and if possible knock her up and do things right this time. That's the only future that seems more comfortable than suicide right now. And even if that doesn't work, maybe time can do some healing along the way.

I didn't intend to vent in this thread, sorry. I think Tolkien just made me think of her too much.
Now back to the pringles man.

[Anonymous No.22147642]

>>22147525
>least mentally ill Wolfe reader

[Anonymous No.22147685]

>>22146900
So far the only authors I've read that have similar qualities to Wolfe are Frank Herbert, Steven Erikson, and Stephen R. Donaldson. I can't imagine you're unfamiliar with them.

[Anonymous No.22147753]

>>22146909
Have you read Robert E. Howard? A lot of the Conan and Solomon Kane stories are fantastic.

Lord Dunsany is top tier as well. The King of Elfland's Daughter and Book of Wonder are magical experiences.

[Anonymous No.22147758]

>>22147753
Whoops, I meant to reply to
>>22146998

[Anonymous No.22147848]

>>22146900
John Crowley. His first few books.

[Anonymous No.22147949]

I know Severian was compared to Claudius, but some names were pulled from later Roman Empire. For example, there were tetrarchs Severus II (Flavius Valerius Severus), and Maxentius (Marcus Aurelius Valerius Maxentius) (Whose wife was Valeria Maximila) and St. Catherine got martyred during his reign. These Illyrian emperors were Sun cult worshippers (Sol Invictus). The senior emperors Diocletian (Gaius Aurelius Valerius Diocletianus ((not his real name)) (who had a daughter named Galeria Valeria) and Maximian declared themselves living gods (Jovius and Herculius).
When I came upon Autarch Maxentius and Saint Katherine, I came to wonder did the Commonwealth people retroactively name all historical figures their autarchs like people from Dune called Hitler an Emperor like Paul? Maxentius and Catherine weren't important historical figures by any means, how could their memory be preserved in Briah aeon?

[Anonymous No.22148109]

Whorl question:

Is Green Urth?

[Anonymous No.22148124]

>>22148109
Nay

[Anonymous No.22148130]

>>22148109
No, it's Lune.

[Anonymous No.22148141]

>>22148124
>>22148130
So is Blue Urth?

[Anonymous No.22148145]

>>22147848
Is his Otherwise: Three Novels a good place to start?

[Anonymous No.22148226]

I'm still weeping over Jolenta bros

[Anonymous No.22148261]

Just finished Citadel, might wait a bit before tackling Urth

I have a few questions

Was there any more significance to Jonas other than being Severian's friend/spacefarer/timefarer/cyborg? Severian seems unusually affected by his disappearance for not having been with him that long

Why does Hethor have access to mirrors?

The entire section with Ash/The Last House

[Anonymous No.22148321]

>>22148261
jonas: severian's first true bro outside of the guild. his tale of being a pirate and potentially thousands of years old highlights how time works, which is something you see later on in urth. leaving the planet and returning at a period either far in the future or even in the past.

hethor: more on this in urth when you see how interstellar ships travel. they use hundreds of vast, gigantic mirrors to capture light and propel them.

ash: ash represents a possibility of the new sun never coming. it's like a marty mcfly back to the future moment when he vanishes after severian decides to haul him back. at least my opinion anyways.

[Anonymous No.22148408]

>>22148321
What's the deal with Jonas being the only Korean in the series? I remember him alluding to a vast Asian empire in space, but it's never mentioned again.

[Anonymous No.22148445]

>>22133440
I still don't buy Valeria being Severian's sister

[Anonymous No.22148470]

>>22137417
I think he's 15-16 at the beginning, but by the time he gets exiled hes late teens if not early 20s imo.

[Anonymous No.22148478]

>>22146900
Another anon already mentioned John Crowley. Little, Big is a blooming work of art.

You might enjoy E. T. A. Hoffmann's The Life and Opinions of the Tomcat Murr together with a fragmentary Biography of Kapellmeister Johannes Kreisler on Random Sheets of Waste Paper.

How about some poofterish poetry? La Belle Dame sans Merci

[Anonymous No.22148493]

>>22146900
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

[Anonymous No.22148505]

>>22148470
in urth, he sees a man who looks about 26, and he says about his own age. urth is 10 years after this book. span of the first four books might be half a year? i think the season's change a few times. triskele and vodalus happenings occured when he was much younger so he's in his teens when he's kicked out.

[Anonymous No.22148534]

>>22148505
Hes not 26 in Urth. Even if he was exiled at 16. his journey takes about 1 year I think, and then there are several years later when he starts writing the book itself before leaving, and then its 10 years later for Urth.
So if he was exiled at 16, hes at least 30+ in Urth.

[Anonymous No.22148550]

>>22148534
iirc, it's spring when he's exiled, and winter has just come when he returns to nessus. and he's writing the books right before he leaves urth, which is 10 years later. he even makes a joke about inire finding him up all being up all night writing the day before his voyage.

[Anonymous No.22148564]

>>22148408
i don't know how much to make of that. his surviving comrade was also korean and passed on his memories to someone in the antechamber, which, along with the human spirit of space traveling gone, horrifies jonas.

[Anonymous No.22148579]

>>22148550
I really don't think it fits Severian to be 16 when hes on his journey. Early 20s - sure. But do you really think when he was briefly the Lictor at Thrax, people under him would have his respect if he was a 16 yo dude? Do you think Archon (or whatever his title was) would appoint him to the Vincula, or give him the special task to kill Cyriaca?
Early 20s is a minimum imo. With his big stature and imposing torturer clothes and training, its a good middle ground between inexperience and being able to be taken seriously from the people around him.

[Anonymous No.22148584]

>>22148564
there's so little space traveling in Solar Cycle. There's like 1 ufo, some transport ships, some flying cars and only 1 interstellar carrier. all of them are hundreds of years old and kept in permanent state of repair like Cuban cars. that's truly terrifying.

[Anonymous No.22148587]

>>22139567
It's bloody good.

[Anonymous No.22148609]

>>22148579
i'm just going by the clues in the book. might be a case of boys becoming men earlier in this time period. i imagine growing up in the environment severian did might do that.

[Anonymous No.22148615]

>>22140131
I think Wolfe has deliberately made things so that we will inevitably entertain this notion, because there just aren't any characters to which Hethor is connected which can be the doll (and Wolfe introduces this doll in such a manner as essentially smacking you upside the head that it's a mystery) YET... Hethor describes the colour of the eyes of the doll (I think it was purple), but Agia doesn't have the same colour eyes. Also, when Severian kills Agilus, we don't get ANY sort of details that he's anything but normal human. So how come Agia be his sister?

There is something deeper going on here, Agia being the doll is just too simple and I think a trap.

[Anonymous No.22148658]

>>22148609
Well I'm also going by the book.
Imo the first chapter Sev is late teens. We get at least one year later till he's exiled.
I just checked GURPS New Sun, and Mantis (Michael Andre-Driussi, author of Lexicon Urthus) puts Severian at 22 when he is exiled from the guild, and there's barely anyone out that that has studied the books as closely as him.

[Anonymous No.22148671]

>>22148615
There's a possibility that Agia changes after hanging out with Hethor. I don't think there's a clue of them meeting before the execution.

>>22148579
I think the demographics are more like a developing nation, with younger people forced to grow up quick and fill adult boots. So if Severian speaks like an adult and carries a sword, he's an adult.

I live in a first world country and here many people start trade apprenticeships at 14 and start doing actual work pretty much immediately. The further back you go the more common it was.

[Anonymous No.22148696]

>>22148671
>I don't think there's a clue of them meeting before the execution.
There is - Agia says when they are the shop, that a sailor is courting her or something to that effect.
That sailor is of course Hethor.

See >>22148658
For Sev's age. 22 sounds right to me.

[Anonymous No.22148712]

I've always thought Sev was 18 in The Torturer's Shadow

[Anonymous No.22148718]

>>22148696
Thanks for the correction. Still, I feel that any weird characteristics are probably a result of her doing devil's bargains with Hethor after the execution.

[Anonymous No.22148732]

>>22148718
I think Hethor is attracted to her because she reminds him of his doll, not that she is the doll.
But who or where that doll actually is - I have no idea.

[Anonymous No.22148763]

>>22148658
you might be right. i just reread the passage in urth, and he says the epitome looks around 25 or even younger, then says perhaps as young as he was when left nessus with terminus. so early 20s might be the right answer.

[Anonymous No.22148948]

>>22148763
There's a lot of unspecified time frames that make things confusing. There's a few stories from Severian's time as an apprentice (Vodalus, Triskele, visiting the Mausoleum, drowning, the library) that are narrated but not dated, then also an unspecified amount of time passes with Severian as an apprentice/journeyman while Thecla is still imprisoned and from what I remember it's said to be a long time, months at least.

[Anonymous No.22148974]

Does Urth explain why exactly Severian is special/was chosen to be special?

[Anonymous No.22149089]

>>22148579
But it's canonical. He's a bit younger than Hoof and Hide, who are of eligible age.
>>22148671
I live in 2nd world, and people still treat you as a kid until you have kids, my older brother is 39 and childless, so our family treats him as a kid. Same as me.
>>22148658
Michael Andre-Dirussi corrects himself in Gate of Horn Book of Silk. Pic related.

[Anonymous No.22149374]

>>22148141
I think so. Although some crazy schizos think green is urth!

[Anonymous No.22149471]

>>22149089
that's interesting.

[Anonymous No.22149496]

>>22137744
It would have to be a hell of a lot more convincing.

[Anonymous No.22149548]

Severian is a 16 year old fuckboy twink, and he canonically looked like pic related (but with black hair)

[Anonymous No.22149621]

>>22147157
I need to give TWK another shot. The highs were incredible but it was frustrating that so much of the plot was eaten up by the giant subplot and Able being an autistic dickhead, to the point where the stuff that interested me (the cosmology, knight stuff, cool animal friends) felt criminally underused. Felt like it had all the ingredients of a true epic but Wolfe just decided to arbitrarily wrap it up (admittedly with a really cool ending sequence).

[Anonymous No.22149695]

>>22149548
Probably true considering at least 2 milfs become physically incapable of not seducing him when they meet him

[Anonymous No.22149730]

>>22133440
Is that goatse?

[Anonymous No.22150219]

I rarely see Peace mentioned but outside of the solar cycle it's one of my favourites of his. Especially the sections on pic related.

[Anonymous No.22150501]

>>22148974
Book of Silk does. Sort of

[Anonymous No.22150622]

>>22147685
>Steven Erikson
Absolutely hated every second of Gardens of the Moon
>>22147685
>Frank Herbert
I can see some similarities and I did enjoy both Dune and Dune Messiah.
>Stephen R. Donaldson
I haven't read him, but I have a distrust of anything that goes beyond the size of LotR or War and Peace.
>>22147753
I've read all of Howard (not that it's that much, horror stories, Conan, Kull, Bran Mak Morn and Solomon Kane). Kane was my favorite, but Conan was awesome as well. Loved his horror stories as well.
>>22147848
Downloaded him, will give him a shot.

[Anonymous No.22150649]

>>22150622
Gardens of the Moon is not representative of the rest of his books, but I'm not going to fault anyone for being turned away by it.
I don't know what you mean with the Donaldson comment. His books are not particularly long.

[Anonymous No.22150689]

>>22149374
This is one of the most frustrating thing with talking about the solar cycle online but especially short sun is that you can't say anything without Marc Aramini's bullshit theories being brought up immediately and treated as gospel by a segment of people who read Wolfe. Especially when you listen to him explain them and he openly talks about how "Green is Urth" is predicated on believing that Wolfe was lying in all of his interviews but wasn't lying when he wrote a note to Aramini in the corner of a Christmas card. Same thing with the people (I don't think Aramini is one) who argue straight up schizo stuff like Silk becoming Tzadkiel eventually

[Anonymous No.22150722]

>>22150649
>His books are not particularly long.
But there are 10 of them.

[Anonymous No.22150733]

>>22150722
It started as a trilogy, so you could stop after the first 3.

[Anonymous No.22150735]

>>22148579
>I really don't think it fits Severian to be 16 when hes on his journey. Early 20s - sure. But do you really think when he was briefly the Lictor at Thrax, people under him would have his respect if he was a 16 yo dude?
He was definitely 15-16 while holding the position of Lictor in Thrax - he was about that age when he was exiled, and he specifically mentions that it's been mere months between his exile from Nessus and escape from Thrax.

>people under him would have his respect if he was a 16 yo dude? Do you think Archon (or whatever his title was) would appoint him to the Vincula, or give him the special task to kill Cyriaca
None of them know how old Severian is - he doesn't carry around an ID or a birth certificate, and they can't exactly ask him about his age because most of them are too afraid of talking to him, period. All the have to go off is Severian's appearance: and few of them ever saw his face without the mask, and he's unusually tall for his age.

Competence-wise, Severian constantly acts like a stuck-up cunt about muh responsibilities, likely to cope with neurosis of how he's in way over his head, which in turn makes the (already terrified) people under him see him as much more capable than he is.

I do think a 16 year old boy with next to no relevant experience being left in charge of hundreds of prisoners because he's from the Scary Place in the Big City is intentionally a part of the joke.

[Anonymous No.22150759]

About Severian's age:

Pic related is four underage amish dudes arrested for drunk driving.

[Anonymous No.22150834]

>>22149496
Posted a link to a very good longpost about it previously, see:
>>22139552

>>22148445
That's cool. I considered the other theories and they're intriguing, however it comes back to this for me:
>>22145380


>If she was a lab creation I don't see why her being a twin is important.
>If she was a twin but it's just about her similar fate to Severian, why have her look so similar to him?

[Anonymous No.22150844]

>>22149089
>I live in 2nd world, and people still treat you as a kid until you have kids, my older brother is 39 and childless, so our family treats him as a kid. Same as me.
I assume that in poor and corrupt places underage gangsters get afforded adult respect. Underage relatives of public officials, police chiefs, judges also receive respect beyond their age. Now we just have to imagine those officials being underage themselves sometimes.

[Anonymous No.22150863]

>>22150844
yeah, you're absolutely right about that now that I think about it.. but I think I would get adult respect because I would always choose to act like one but we really try our best to keep our gangster status a secret

[Anonymous No.22150866]

>>22150689
This. It's simple. Green is Lune. Lune was terraformed to be green. It's a safe haven for the exultants, genetically altered humans who are vampiric. What do they have in common with the inhumu? They need blood to function normally. Inhumu are the genetic future of the elite.
The real question is what's the connection between Oreb and Tzadkiel? Oreb is a dwarflike creature in Red Sun timeline, and so is Zak for a brief instance. They both speak in exclamations. Need I say more?

[Anonymous No.22150872]

>>22150863
I have spent a lot of time with immigrants from poorer countries and they generally try to keep a tough/macho facades. Some more some less.

[Anonymous No.22150884]

>>22150866
I don't think Green and Blue are in our solar system desu.

If it's exultants, why do the whole metamorphosis thing?

[Anonymous No.22150907]

>>22150884
Their DNA is unstable. When they ran out of slaves and khabits, they degraded into slugs.
But it could be that they're not in the Red Sun system. Alien creatures and all, Whorl being in Urth's orbit for who knows how long and all...

[Anonymous No.22150914]

>>22150907
>But it could be that they're not in the Red Sun system.
I don't see how it makes sense with The New Sun if it's just Urth and Moon. After all, the whole point of the New Sun was to bring man out of moral and technological stagnation and restarting the civilization. Why was Severian important if it all just ended in Inhumi and barbarism? Whorl would have needed to be in the orbit for what, a few million years? And I seem to remember it was a few hundred years old in their counting.

[Anonymous No.22150921]

>>22150735
All of this is conjecture countering my conjecture.
I don't think they would be making Journeyman in the guild boys at 15-16. Late teens sure, but not 16.

It also makes sense for Sev to be 33 in Urth, and if we go 10 years back (length of time from Sev's exile to Urth of the New Sun) - early 20s makes the most sense.
Otherwise Sev in Urth has to be 26 which again makes no sense.

[Anonymous No.22150926]

>>22150914
I interpreted Whorl was in orbit for a really long time, like thousands of years at least, but the first frozen people like Duko were awakened 200-300 years before Silk. At least I'm not one of those who think Whorl is Lune.

[Anonymous No.22150934]

>>22150926
Thousands of years would make sense as well, but you'd need millions for the changes that happened to the ecosystem of Urth and Moon. Why would Typhon send out a generation ship only to leave it in orbit for who knows how long? A whim? Maybe, but I don't think so.

[Anonymous No.22150939]

>>22150926
I'll never understand how some people think the Whorl is Lune when the book directly states it's a hollowed out asteroid and it was launched by Typhon, meaning Severian wouldn't know what the moon is if that was the case.

[Anonymous No.22150944]

>>22150939
>hollowed out asteroid
Somehow missed that. I assumed it was an O'Neill cylinder.

[Anonymous No.22150950]

Can't wait to be selected for the whorl and worship the Elon-AI on my way to Andromeda.

[Anonymous No.22150957]

>>22150950
Book of the Long Sun vibes

[Anonymous No.22150959]

>>22150944
The main chamber where everyone lives is definitely a cylinder, hence the east/west poles.
>must have missed it
It's in the character/place list in Return to the Whorl, but isn't mentioned elsewhere. There's several details Wolfe sticks in those for people who actually read through them, like Blood and Musk being gay.
>>22150950
If Elon starts jerking off in public then we'll know he's ready to be Pas

[Anonymous No.22150962]

>>22150959
>Blood and Musk being gay
That was heavily implied, Musk was his twink he's been using since childhood (Musk is a pedo like most gays who get the chance).

[Anonymous No.22150973]

>>22150959
>>22150962
>be blood
>living comfy life as a crime lord with your twink fucktoy
>local priest breaks into your home
>cut a deal with him
>set off a chain reaction that ends in your twink bf getting used as a human sacrifice by a robot
>make one last ditch attempt to fix things up
>the priest from earlier uses you as a human sacrifice

[Anonymous No.22150975]

>>22150959
>It's in the character/place list in Return to the Whorl, but isn't mentioned elsewhere. There's several details Wolfe sticks in those for people who actually read through them, like Blood and Musk being gay.
Hah, he really got me. And I was smug for not skipping the foreword to one of Wolfe's books where he hid a short story about a college student stealing from the library.
>If Elon starts jerking off in public then we'll know he's ready to be Pas
I think he's the kind of guy to enjoy having a weird mythology based off him

[Anonymous No.22151000]

Is there any information about what goes on in space? Like outside of Urth. There was supposed to be an entire spacefaring civilization, but there's no mention of it as far as I remember.

[Anonymous No.22151004]

>bring Silk's character to it's Long Sun climax
>have him talk through it to Horn
>explain why he wanted to commit suicide
>but wait, gotta take a moment to brag to Horn about going three rounds with Hyacinth on their wedding night
lmao gene you horny bastard

[Anonymous No.22151023]

>>22148584
Considering how huge space is though surely there's countless areas where humans are flourishing

[Anonymous No.22151033]

>>22151023
The entire series is triggered by Typhon's hubris to resettle Earth in spite of knowing the Solar System is doomed sooner or later.

[Anonymous No.22151034]

My personal favourite podcast (completely unrelated to Wolfe) talked about BotNS for just a minute the other day, saying that the type of executions Severian performs are historically well researched. Listen at 13 minutes in:

https://theamericansun.files.wordpress.com/2021/10/myth-of-the-20th-century-episode-226-death-cast-down-from-the-proud-tower-james-lafond.mp3

I also remember reading about european executioners being extremely particular about their trade. Treating the execution and the way they converse with the damned as something like a sacred art. German and polish ones mostly from what I've read.
Especially the scene where he talks to Agilus in the cell made me interested in the subject.

[Anonymous No.22151045]

>>22151033
But still, what happened to the hyperkorean gigaempire? Are there just a hundred worlds full of asians that don't care for Urth in the slightest?

[Anonymous No.22151074]

>>22151045
I imagine there was something more about it in the 1st draft, but Gene Wolfe forgot about the Space Koreans or gave up on expanding on them. The entire Commonwealth/Ascian war is the futuristic Korean War. I guess he was still distressed by his military service in the 80's but has since gotten over it. I mean, Severian would be just as cool if he evacuated the Red Sun inhabitants, but that wouldn't be unexpected, would it? :D
Maybe the Urth was some backwater national park like in Dune and Hyperion, so when Typhon chose it for his royal capital it gained relevancy again. Who knows what goes on outside of the Solar System. Maybe they all died out by the time BotNS happens, maybe they stopped being human. It's a big mystery.

[Anonymous No.22151106]

>>22151074
>I imagine there was something more about it in the 1st draft, but Gene Wolfe forgot about the Space Koreans or gave up on expanding on them. The entire Commonwealth/Ascian war is the futuristic Korean War.
I think you're right.
>I guess he was still distressed by his military service in the 80's but has since gotten over it.
I thought he didn't see combat? Did he ever talk about his service in depth?
>Who knows what goes on outside of the Solar System. Maybe they all died out by the time BotNS happens, maybe they stopped being human. It's a big mystery.
Well Urth must be special because don't the Hieros need the new sun to come so humanity can come about and create them? If humanity survives elsewhere are they somehow incapable of the same?

If I'm simply in dire need of a re-read, please tell me, it's been a while.

[Anonymous No.22151224]

>>22150759
Eata, Severian,
Roche, Drotte

[Anonymous No.22151334]

>>22150722
The Solar Cycle is 11 books.

[Anonymous No.22151485]

>>22151224
Perfect.
>>22151334
Not counting Urth?

[Anonymous No.22151571]

>>22147685
>Erikson

There is no doubt that Malazan has a lot of thought and imagination put into it, and there is genuinely well crafted storylines and characters in those books.

But man, Erikson has to be the most blunt, heavy-handed preacher I have seen in the genre. He is a typical western neolib that goes out of his way not only to write the exact same character like five times, but also to make some weird lady rant about capitalism during an scene.

He can say interesting things, but rarely when he intends to.

[Anonymous No.22151575]

Blessed Wolfe thread.

What do you guys make of Wizard Knight? Currently starting the second book and so far I like quite a lot the story. I suspect Sir Able will be one of my favorite knights in fiction once I am done.

[Anonymous No.22151633]

>>22138728
source picture?

[Anonymous No.22151673]

>>22151633
Jian Chong Min - Bottle brush trees

Nice that it's not just me who's mesmerized by it, but you gotta learn how to use image search.

[Anonymous No.22151675]

>>22151575
Currently reading the Knight. I'm not impressed by it at all. It's like Wolfe knowing people liked the New Sun, but doubled down on random teleportation and time travel from the Short Sun. It feels like Horn all over again.

[Anonymous No.22151702]

Pic related is from 1965. "Wolfe later said he was desperately grappling to make himself sound interesting in this bio — thus the “Afghan hounds” bit. Later when he submitted details for his bio in Orbit 2, he explicitly challenged Damon Knight to find anything interesting to say about his life."

The man, the myth, the legend. Him looking so ordinary will never stop being funny to me.

[Anonymous No.22151824]

>>22151702
I hate this pressure to make my life sound interesting to other people. At the end of the day, we all just browse the internet, watch some kino, and edge for hours on end.

[Anonymous No.22151956]

>>22151702
He was pretty normal looking young.

[Anonymous No.22151979]

>>22151956
Exactly, you wouldn't be able to draw him from memory. His moustache later on certainly helped with making him look distinctive, followed finally by the eyepatch.

>>22145170
About the Theseus thing, pic related. Don't know how true it is, I don't know anything about the battle.

[Anonymous No.22152253]

>>22151675
Did the Short Sun involve time travel though?

[Anonymous No.22152317]

>>22151979
It's true. Those cucks in the podcast Alzabo Soup talk about it. I recommend it for a Wolfe reread. But they are still faggots regarding severian. Think he sucks and is a rapist.

[Anonymous No.22152361]

>>22152317
>Those cucks in the podcast Alzabo Soup talk about it. I recommend it for a Wolfe reread. But they are still faggots regarding severian. Think he sucks and is a rapist.

They're quite the redditors but they're bearable for their kind. I found out about a really funny christmas theater via them. "Peter Pan goes wrong", produced by the BBC. If you wanna watch something with your family, literally no one dislikes it.

Why don't you listen to the Re-reading Wolfe Podcast instead? I think they're quite based.
I even remember a third Wolfe-centered podcast but I forgot the name.

[Anonymous No.22152395]

>>22150622
I'll check out Howard's horror stories then, thank you. I wish Howard kept going with Kane because I was getting very invested in Kane's primitive energy as he encountered more and more fantastical things and ho he tries to reconcile it with his faith.

I also hated Gardens of the Moon. My friend claims that Deadhouse Gates (Malazan #2) is really good and that Gardens of the Moon is really meh but I have no enthusiasm to try it.

[Anonymous No.22152440]

>>22151106
I think it's implied in Urth that there are many planets that have humans on them and they all seem to be diverging. For example, there are now humans with four arms, purple humans, beast-like humans etc. You encounter them on Tzadkiel's ship. Urth is important because the Hierogrammates believe(know?) that it will be the humans on Urth that eventually become the Hieros, nowhere else.

Regarding the First Empire, it gets talked about a bit in TSoTL by Cyriaca (chapter 6) which then segues into Typhon's Second Empire. Basically, humans expanded and became, in a sense, less human because they gave up the "wild" part of themselves and were mega science-based. They were very order-focused and cared only about what could be written with numbers. She makes it sounds like they forgot about music, lust, God, emotions, the other arts etc. They had machines that were slaves and these machines could feel and even hated the humans. Eventually, the machines coaxed the more wild part of humans back into mankind to destroy them. They succeeded in bringing back the more animalistic parts and the empire dissolved. To the surprise of the machines, the humans began to love the machines for what they did. The machines began to teach the humans what they lost and eventually the machines died. Humans had written down what the machines taught and stored them in various places. All these writings were gathered by Typhon in Nessus (newly built) to be destroyed, but he changed his mind after a dream showed him that his empire will fail. He then decided to have them stored in the Library of Nessus for his own use if such a calamity occurred.

[Anonymous No.22152459]

>>22152440
I should also mention the reason Typhon wanted to destroy the writings was because he essentially wanted to redo what the First Empire did and leave the wild part of humanity behind again.

[Anonymous No.22152517]

>>22152361
new podcast 'shelved by genre' has just started with a new sun readthrough. i'm excited for it, i've been meaning to re-read new sun for a decade so this is a good excuse for me. their podcast 'just king things' which covers one steven king book a month in publication order is great so i trust them.

[Anonymous No.22152605]

>Whorl
>World
Whoah

[Anonymous No.22152610]

>>22151004
You are almost there

[Anonymous No.22152615]

>>22151034
>My personal favourite podcast

[Anonymous No.22152635]

>>22152517
Listening right now, the intro music indicates good taste. Thanks.
>>22152615
Is it a funny phrasing? I'm not a native speaker, genuinely asking.

[Anonymous No.22152642]

>>22152440
>>22152459

Thanks for the effortpost, I appreciate it. You could have just told me to fuck off and reread (rightly), but I probably still wouldn't have understood as clearly.

[Anonymous No.22152680]

>>22152440
Is there a chance this is just propaganda? I doubt the Urthlings know much about history or space empires since they're so isolated and backwards.

[Anonymous No.22152685]

>>22152680
Next post explains it. The stories in Ultan's library are what the machines preserved, altered by the human telephone game. Likely similar telephone stories are spread troughout the commonwealth.

What I wonder about, is the rest of Urth somehow mentioned or do we only know about the Americas? Is the rest of the world also controlled my either/a mix of the Commonwealth and Ascian slaves?

[Anonymous No.22152689]

>>22152685
Either only Americas have been resettled or every continent has its autarch.

[Anonymous No.22152694]

>>22152680
It could be. Cyriaca says the story comes from her uncle's very old book. It does contain some truths that we can be pretty confident in. She says Typhon's (though she doesn't name him, just says a leader who would be equivalent to an autarch) empire fails and from what we can tell his empire did fail. She also says he never got to enjoy the library which we also know is true because he dies on his mountain while under siege. So while I believe some of the details may be wonky, in general, it may be fairly accurate.

[Anonymous No.22152723]

>>22146837
TV Tropes is cool and I like to comb through their entries for my favorite works of fiction, films, or games, but maaan they can be so reddit and cringe I have to fight the urge to vomit some times.

[Anonymous No.22152724]

>>22152689
Eata travels to East Asia (Xanthic lands. We don't know how Urth's continents now look, but I believe the Commonwealth is said to be the only "free" land left.

[Anonymous No.22152737]

>>22146874
>Not because we pity them, but because it is intolerable that good men should spend a lifetime dispensing pain.
BASED and beautiful. Wasn't this said by [Master Whatshisname] when [Severian returns]?

[Anonymous No.22152766]

>>22147479
I'm sorry man, I know it's very painful. May you find joy and peace. And keep reading.

[Anonymous No.22152788]

>>22148226
Don't. She was nothing. And she was held together by nuts and bolts and glue. She was a special effect

[Anonymous No.22152806]

>>22152788
>she was held together by nuts and bolts and glue.
And cum.

[Anonymous No.22152909]

>>22152737
I believe so, it's been a while since I read it. The only re-reads I've done so far have been limited to immediately re-reading what I just read and opening a page at random to read for 30 minutes.

I'm sure I'll go trough parts of his work often times enough in my life unless fate prevents me.

>>22152766
Thanks, I really appreciate it. Wolfe's books have been a most welcome form of escapism now more than ever.

I hope someone makes a new thread after this one autosages soon, I enjoyed this one a lot.

[Anonymous No.22152919]

>>22152788
>>22152806
this. tragic tale of modern women. surgically sexy but completely incapable of doing anything, hating the attention and dying alone.

[Anonymous No.22153007]

>>22152909
same. not very often do you get a wolfe thread with actual discussion. i enjoyed picking apart his writing.

[Anonymous No.22153045]

This is the final section of Cyriaca's story that I was looking at.

“Anyway, for a long time—no one knows quite how long, I suppose, and
anyway the world was not as near the sun’s failing then and its years were
longer—these writings circulated or else lay moldering in cenotaphs where
their authors had concealed them for safekeeping. They were fragmentary,
contradictory, and eisegesistic. Then when some autarch (though they
were not called autarchs then) hoped to recapture the dominion exercised
by the first empire, they were gathered up by his servants, white-robed
men who ransacked cocklofts and threw down the androsphinxes erected
to memorialize the machines and entered the cubicula of moiraic women
long dead. Their spoil was gathered into a great heap in the city of Nessus,
which was then newly built, to be burned.
“But on the night before the burning was to begin, the autarch of that
time, who had never dreamed before the wild dreams of sleep but only
waking dreams of dominion, dreamed at last. And in his dream he saw all
the untamed worlds of life and death, stone and river, beast and tree
slipping away from his hands forever.
“When morning came, he ordered that the torches not be kindled, but
that there should be a great vault built to house all the volumes and
scrolls the white-robed men had gathered. For he thought that if the new
empire he planned should fail him at last, he would retire to that vault
and enter the worlds that, in imitation of the ancients, he was determined
to cast aside.
“His empire did fail him, as it had to. The past cannot be found in the
future where it is not—not until the metaphysical world, which is so much
larger and so much slower than the physical world, completes its
revolution and the New Sun comes. But he did not retire as he had
planned into that vault and the curtain wall he had caused to be built
about it, for when once the wild things have been put behind a man for
good and all, they are trapwise and cannot be recaptured.

It almost seems like the story predicts the eventual rise of the Hieros.The Hieros, like the humans of the First Empire and later Typhon, have a star-spanning empire and it comes after the New Sun arrives. Poor Typhon's empire was "metaphysically" too early. I also think it's just a very interesting story within a story.

[Anonymous No.22153061]

>>22151702
"Inside Sir" sounds like some kind of Indian gay porno about a piss-wallah who gets stuck in the asshole of his master or something

[Anonymous No.22153079]

>>22152685
>Is the rest of the world also controlled my either/a mix of the Commonwealth and Ascian slaves?
Probably keep deep in fighting ocean people/aliens

[Anonymous No.22153119]

>>22153045
Thanks for posting that section.
>It almost seems like the story predicts the eventual rise of the Hieros.The Hieros, like the humans of the First Empire and later Typhon, have a star-spanning empire and it comes after the New Sun arrives. Poor Typhon's empire was "metaphysically" too early. I also think it's just a very interesting story within a story.

But isn't it cyclical to some extent as in the Hieros having been created before? I thought humanity must come about, create the Hieros, then almost perish and prove themselves worthy to be saved by their creations. And then it repeats.

The Hieros have to exist, they can't be transporting Severian around in time and space to guide humanity into creating itself.
So someone other than Severian did it last time and someone else will have to do it again. Actual Jesus reference?

I absolutely might be wrong so please correct me.

[Anonymous No.22153152]

>>22153045
>>22152440
That was the true moment I fell in love with Wolfe I live for this shit. Became obsessed with dying earth genre soon after

[Anonymous No.22153159]

>>22153119
Yes it is very cyclical. The hierogrammates were created in the future but because of their time + universe traveling they can operate in the past (and in other universes). Humans of the previous universe evolved into Hieros and created the Hierogrammates. We don't encounter any Hieros as far as I'm aware, only Hierodules (Barbatus and Famulimus) and Hierogrammates like Tzadkiel. The universe is doing another cycle, so the hierogrammates are making sure humans don't mess up and end up not creating the hierogrammates.
So I believe Humans -> Hieros over a long time, then they create Hierogrammates. Hierogrammates escape the universe and enter into a higher one. They create Hierodules in Severian's universe to help ensure humans become Hieros. So the creation is ensuring its creator exists.
Anyhow, that's how I read it, but who knows.

[Anonymous No.22153163]

>>22153119
More simple:

God* (The Outsider) creates humanity
Humanity creates Hieros**
Hieros save humanity**

* God in BOTNS is confirmed canon by Gene Wolfe. When asked if Valeria was Severian's ideal love, he denied it and said that man's ideal love is God.
** Repeat these parts endlessly.

I don't remember if and why the Hieros disappear. They do reproduce. Does humanity destroy them? Does their dimension collapse?

[Anonymous No.22153168]

>>22153119
>So someone other than Severian did it last time and someone else will have to do it again. Actual Jesus reference?
It isn't called Book of the New Son for nothing

[Anonymous No.22153188]

>>22153159
That makes so much more sense. I remember being a little confused during parts of Urth. You should write and sell a 30 page magazine summarizing the Solar Cycle, there's appears to be quite the niche market for Wolfe-related literature.

[Anonymous No.22153228]

Have you all read the Brown Book stories not included in the BoTNS?
https://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WolfeWiki.TheBrownBook

Also there are the two side short stories: The Cat and The Map

[Anonymous No.22153249]

>>22153152
Would you recommend these books to someone who's liked all of Wolfe's work but feels meh about Lafferty's Past Master and thought Cugel was alright?
I've already gotten some recommendations I just want a bunch of stuff I can enjoy without touching the part of Wolfe's bibliography I haven't read yet.

>>22153228
There's also "These are the jokes", where BOTNS characters tell jokes that reflect their personality (He wrote this one after his son complained about a lack of humour). I just can't for the life of me find it online and haven't gotten around to buying the collection it's in.

[Anonymous No.22153269]

>>22153249
>These are the Jokes
Huh, never even heard of this.

[Anonymous No.22153305]

>>22153249
"These are jokes" are in Castle of Otter. Thanks for reminding me.

[Anonymous No.22153359]

>>22153305
I just once again looked for it online and had no success. The first used copy of Castle of the Otter I've seen was a measly 600 buckerinos. Pls help bros, just some low quality pics of the jokes would be a godsend.

[Anonymous No.22153382]

>>22153359
I heard they're not funny but I just wanna know what Severian, Valeria, Jonas etc have to say. There's also supposedly a riddle in there I'd love to get into.

>>22153269
Is that from Citadel or supplementary work? Because I don't remember it despite it being such a memorable page.

[Anonymous No.22153383]

>>22153359
https://www.ebay.com/itm/145103139873?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=GS3TMzldRmm&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY

its less than $100 there are 3 on ebay right now. I have a copy of Planet Engineering. That shit is fucking insane price now

[Anonymous No.22153387]

>>22153382
>Is that from Citadel or supplementary work? Because I don't remember it despite it being such a memorable page.
Don't know, just found it online after a quick google search.

[Anonymous No.22153413]

>>22153383
>its less than $100 there are 3 on ebay right now
The cheapest one doesn't ship to my country and the other ones I can Ill afford with shipping right now. I will have to look more.
>I have a copy of Planet Engineering. That shit is fucking insane price now
I'm jelly. Must be nice owning the canon commonwealth map.
>>22153387
It must be master Ash's joke. That makes me excited if he gets to tell one. Typhon's joke? Appian's joke?

[Anonymous No.22153437]

>>22153305
Thanks for reminding me that I still have to read my copy of Cake of the Otter.

[Anonymous No.22153442]

>>22153413
If you have access to Z-Library, I just went on there and they have Castle Days which combines Castle of the Otter and Gene Wolfe's Book of Days. I just downloaded it and it has the jokes. Use 0312890427 to search for it on Z-library.

[Anonymous No.22153448]

>>22153437
Please don't torture me... have mercy and post the jokes. I beg you. What can I do in return?

[Anonymous No.22153454]

>>22153448
No Typhon and no Appian jokes, sorry bro.

[Anonymous No.22153463]

>>22153448
I gotchu buddy. It's like 15 pages tho. Also fuck Swype texting sometimes.
>Cake

[Anonymous No.22153466]

im confused. do aliens exist in this world? arent the giant underwater things aliens?

[Anonymous No.22153470]

>>22153463

[Anonymous No.22153474]

>>22153470

[Anonymous No.22153475]

>>22153474

[Anonymous No.22153483]

>>22153475

[Anonymous No.22153485]

>>22153442
I feel retarded now because I had castle of days downloaded on my previous phone. I can't access z library, I'm not that smart when it comes to computers. I've always been jealous of you net wizards, you probably work a more comfortable job than me too.
>>22153463
You absolute LEGEND.
Please tell me your first name so I can consider it for my future sons. God I'm so hyped.

Once we hit Autosage I will start a new bread.

[Anonymous No.22153488]

>>22153466
Yes aliens exist. There is some debate if the giant underwater creatures, Megatherians, are aliens or mutated humans that have arrived on Urth. That's sorta one of the fun things to speculate on in the series because the line between human and alien is blurred sometimes.

[Anonymous No.22153491]

>>22153483

[Anonymous No.22153500]

>>22153491

>>22153485
No need to thank me my brother in Christ. I found this at a used bookstore for 8 dollars.

[Anonymous No.22153506]

>>22153500

[Anonymous No.22153513]

>>22153506

[Anonymous No.22153522]

>>22153513

[Anonymous No.22153523]

>>22153522

[Anonymous No.22153528]

>>22153523

[Anonymous No.22153535]

>>22153528

[Anonymous No.22153541]

>>22153535
Last one.

[Anonymous No.22153549]

>>22153500
>I found this at a used bookstore for 8 dollars
A fate you no doubt deserved.

I hope your well-formed feet may carry you trough a long and healthy life.

I will have to read these before starting a new thread. Thanks to everyone for taking part in this one.

[Anonymous No.22153556]

>>22153549
No problem. Here's my Wolfe shelf as a minor flex with a bonus Dying Earth.

Just get back to me when you finish Conquest. Since I'm pretty sure you were the guy asking about Star Wars in the sff.

[Anonymous No.22153583]

>>22153556
Beautiful shelf, very neat. Half of my physical copies are with friends and family, I rarely accept them back unless they've read them. Muuust......genevangelizeee...

>Just get back to me when you finish Conquest. Since I'm pretty sure you were the guy asking about Star Wars in the sff.
Busted and will do. But I'm torn between that, Lyonesse and the Grey Mouser books. Since you've done me such a favour I will let you decide and honour your wish.
Am I that easy to recognize or do I just post the same shit too much?

[Anonymous No.22153641]

>>22153583
I lent my Shadow and Claw to my dad, which is why there's a gap.

As for recognizing you there were two obvious clues:
>1. You accompany your posts with random fantasy pictures.
>2. You talked about Wolfe pretty in depth while posting those random pictures.

I can't speak to the quality of either of those. I have yet to actually read Vance or Lieber. I'm currently reading the first Chronicles of Amber then dipping my toes into S&S with The Broken Sword by Poul Anderson. If you really want to repay me just read Conquest, it's pretty short and if you don't like it it's no skin off my back.

[Anonymous No.22153658]

>>22153641
Count on it. I will keep my word.

[Anonymous No.22153678]

[Anonymous No.22153681]

>>22153678
Well, if we're doing memes...

[Anonymous No.22153718]

>>22153470
what happened to your pinky toe?

[Anonymous No.22153752]

>>22153742
>>22153742
>>22153742

New bread

[Anonymous No.22154678]

>>22153718
It's only about half the length of the adjacent toe and the lack of focus and proper lighting makes it look almost invisible.