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/lit/ - Literature

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2211354 No.2211354 [Reply] [Original]

I was in philosophy and things got a bit off course, in short we were asked the question: If an idea is written down on a piece of paper and lost forever, never to be found again, does the idea still exist?

Can an idea exist without a human acknowledging it?

>> No.2211360

yes, the idea was unlocked and is filed under achievements unless you reboot the universe

>> No.2211359

But if its written down then a human did acknowledge it at one point.

>> No.2211362

It exsists until the guy that thought it dies

>> No.2211361

Yes if you agree with Plato.

No if you don't.

>> No.2211363

>>2211359
Yea, but the human who wrote it down died and no other human had ever heard/saw the idea

>> No.2211374

>>2211363
It exists no longer, but it existed once. There is no logical argument for anything other than this, no matter how romantic the notion of ideas existing forever might be. Ideas are given existence, in human terms, by human acknowledgement. If we cannot conceive it, it does not exist, and in the instance of no one being able to conceive it, it no longer exists.

>> No.2211378
File: 389 KB, 559x669, Gatehouse.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2211378

Oh I don't know..HOW DO YOU DEFINE IDEA?!

Jesus some times I hate philosophy students..I defend you guys, you know!

>> No.2211379

>>2211374
If a human thought of it, another human will be able to think of it.

>> No.2211383

A dream character tells me the meaning of life. Is it my idea?

>> No.2211385

>>2211363
It still existed at one point, therefore it existed.

If I killed myself tomorrow, no one would care, but I'd still have existed.

>> No.2211388

>>2211379
At which point it will again come into existence. In the interrim, it does not exist because no living human is able to give it existence.

>> No.2211404

>>2211388
That's only a point of view. We need to better define the concept of "idea".

>> No.2211409

>>2211404
No we don't and none of this is complicated-the dude you responded to is right.

I think of a pink gorilla assfucking mia kirshner and die. if no one else ever thought of it, the idea doesen't exsist. What's so fucking complicated about that

>> No.2211415

>>2211404
Why?

>> No.2211420

'No ideas but in things' as william carlos williams put it. Ideas already exist as things, but it takes a consciousness to extract them.

The thing is, wcw was making more of an explicit choice than anything, so it still stands that there are ideas unique to consciousness, and therefore reliant on it.

And this is getting a bit far from the whole 'idea written on a piece of paper' thing I guess...

>> No.2211421

Stop, before it's too late, nobody define "idea".

>> No.2211429

This reminds me of a question posed to me by a high-school religion teacher: If everyone on earth ceased to think about an object for one minute, would that object not exist for that one minute?

disregard subjective perception and objective perception as the sum of those perceptions. Would a theoretical outside (like God, for example) perception be able to examine that object?

>> No.2211432

>>2211429
This is the same as the tree falling in the forest thing, right?

If so, do you need an outside consciousness to perceive it, or does it exist without some consciousness evaluating it?

>> No.2211436

>>2211429
An idea is not like an object, because it doesen't exsist in the physical universe, it's created from consciousness. That's not really what this thread is about

>> No.2211448

>>2211409
>>2211415
>durr let's not define anything properly so we can be as vague as we want and we can always claim to be right

Welcome to philosophy, chaps

>> No.2211458

>>2211448
I asked why because I wanted to understand the angle of approach your argument took, not because I didn't see the point in it. I've yet to have an answer, so I would think it's you that is being vague. I count two posts calling for a definition, and none offering forward one.

Take initiative, or leave the thread. Don't challenge ideas with nothing but hot air.

>> No.2211466

>>2211458
Who do you think I am, you seem to think that I posted some previous posts

>> No.2211474

>>2211466
I thought you were >>2211404

>> No.2211488

It depends. Are you a Relativist? A Liberal Humanist? Are you a Sophist? Existentialist or Nihilist?

Because that could determine whether you believe information is only as important as the relationship that piece of paper has on forming the perspective of someone, or whether you believe that all sensory information outside of yourself exists even when you blink your eyes and can't verify that it's still there, or whether you believe that everything in the world is a creation of your own benefit and so naturally that paper is just an exercise in how awesome you are, or whether you believe that information is only valuable if it's shared with someone and though you may never see that paper again you'll never know who it will later touch, or whether you believe there's no point to any of it and an idea dies with the individual so who cares anyway?

You see, there are a lot of ways to approach this issue. And that's not even the half of it!

>someone else do the other half

>> No.2211494

Define idea OP.

>>2211488
>labelling your philosophical pov
>2011
ishygddt

>> No.2211498

>>2211494

>implying your Post-Modern blase attitude is uniquely outside of these perspectives

hai guise, i think every1 is rite

>> No.2211514
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2211514

Idea's are memes. Memes are like genes. No carriers, no genes. So no carriers no memes.

Spooks disappear when people stop thinking about them.

>> No.2211527

>>2211514
I consider myself a Stirnerite, but I believe what he was getting at is ideals have no rationality unless they become reality. Ideals will always exist, but if it remains stagnant and unrealized, then ideals are, well...spooks.

>> No.2211531

why can't i hold all these substances

>> No.2211607

>>2211527

Ideals/ideas only exist within the mind. They will 'always exist' in the sense that there are people thinking and therefore utilize ideas. But if there are no people thinking, there will be no idea(l)s.

There is no existence of thoughts or values outside of the mind. Therefore they are always spooks in the sense that they will never me more real than any human thought can be.

The notion of an idea existing without an owner/thinker, the idea 'in itself' is a religious way of thinking.

>> No.2211630

>>2211615
>implying an idea is a material object just like a penny, a shoe and a phone

It depends on how OP defines idea, which he doesn't do.

>> No.2211657

>inb4 OP is dead, don't give a fuck what his intentions were, it's about what I think of this text

>> No.2211683

>implying existence is defined by human perception

>> No.2211685

>>2211683
>implying it isn't

>> No.2211690
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2211690

>>2211685
>since we didn't see the big bang happen, it objectively never existed!
Do you honestly think the universe sprang into existence the moment humans became intelligent?

>> No.2211691

>>2211685

Matter acts differently when there is no one observing it.

I'm not going to go mine for the scientific articles, but they're there if you want to look at them.

I'm not taking sides, I fucking hate philosophy, tbqh, but facts is facts.

>> No.2211695

>>2211690
Do you honestly believe the universe sprang into existence from nothingness?

>> No.2211697

>>2211695
Did I ever say that?

>> No.2211699

>>2211697
That's what "big bang" tends to imply, yes.

>> No.2211700

>>2211699
It was just an example.
Here's a better one: If a tree falls in the forest and no one is around to see it, did it really fall?
Answer: yes, it fucking fell you idiot.

>> No.2211708
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2211708

>>2211700

Well, the sentence itself states it fell so that's pretty obvious. All you're saying is: If A=B and also RANDOM FUCKING X, A=B?

To get back on topic: An idea is a thought. If it gets written down it ceases to be an idea but is only a symbolic representation of a certain thought, usually with the intention that it hopefully summons about the same thought in a person that reads it. Ideas don't exist outside of minds. So: If a person writes down an idea and then dies the idea dies with him. He can try to communicate the idea via words and so make someone else have an idea that is hopefully something like it.

>> No.2211730

>>2211708
But if the idea is written down, doesn't the integrity of the idea diminish? I mean, you can describe the total idea in your head, but you can't describe it 100% accurately to someone else, or ensure that that person themselves understands it fully.

So even in writing the idea down, the idea may be preserved as a concept, but the concept decays over time.

>> No.2211752

ideas don't exist
words on a piece of paper do

>> No.2211760

>>2211730

That was kind off my point.