/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22111663]

"Traditionalism" is just religion for people who are fundamentally atheistic in their thinking and cannot actually bring themselves to believe in a personal God.

The truth is, different religions contradict each other. Buddhism is not Catholicism is not Protestantism is not Islam is not Hinduism.

These contradictions are not simply "incidental". They are enough to make people go to war.

Sure, you can strip down all of the peculiar characteristics of each religion and find the "commonalities". But you'll end up with something so generic that it's basically Freemasonic deism.

If you're going to be religious, be religious. Hold firm to the body of dogmas taught by your religion. If you're not sure about it, just be an atheist, agnostic or deist. Stop LARPing.

[Anonymous No.22111665]

>>22111663
No.

[Anonymous No.22111668]

Oof filtered

[Anonymous No.22111670]

>>22111668
right

[Anonymous No.22111686]

>>22111668
If you believe in Islam, it follows you believe Christ was not God and was not crucified.

If you believe in Christianity, you literally believe in the negation of these propositions.

"Oh just ignore it and focus on your commonalities; you both believe in God!"

Yeah, but that's not Islam or Christianity, that's just "bare theism" or deism.

[Anonymous No.22111699]

>>22111686
Here's the problem: you imply that those dogmas are true by themselves. But that is not the case: the point of an exotic religion is not to teach truth (which is impossible) but to elevate the soul through worship or possibly lead to truth. Religion's worth is salvation, not absolute truth.

[Anonymous No.22111732]

>>22111699
That is not the teaching of the religions like Christianity and Islam which both claim to teach absolute truth revealed by God.

I understand that's your belief. But you're not a Christian. You're not a Muslim. If you go to Church with only this reason in mind, you are being a hypocrite, because you are outwardly professing belief in the religion whilst inwardly going there only for the "worship" and disbelieving in the actual dogmas.

You could, if you wanted, go to a syncretistic religion which is all about generic "worship" and spirituality, without having any orthodoxy. But you can't claim to be a follow of a religion like Islam or Christianity.

[Anonymous No.22111770]

>>22111663
What an original, insightful, and well-read critique. I have never seen it on /lit/ before. I certainly haven't seen it at least 50 times by now. And it is a very interesting critique because it really tackles the core point of the Traditionalist perspective, namely the common source of the many markedly different religious traditions. And you know, this type of critique requires a ton of insight to make. I bet that none of the Traditionalist thinkers ever thought about the points you raise! I am sure there's no answer to them in their corpus. And it's certainly untrue that only a midwit TradCatboy could come up with this critique.
>>22111686
>>22111732
The Traditionalists never said you should ignore your religious tradition. That would, as the name implies, be rather counterproductive to their goal of promoting Tradition.
Also what Christianity or Islam teach on some specific point of relative value is totally irrelevant to what the truth actually is. The Traditionalists study the truth in the religions and tell you what it is. The rest of the stuff is, as they repeat constantly, of contingent value.
Honestly your post is so full of misunderstandings that it really reminds me why I don't bother with these obvious shit flinging threads. Guenon quite literally states that he is *not* a Muslim. He engages Muslim practices but is not, and indeed, cannot possibly be a Muslim, because he has transcended the exoteric detritus characteristic of the Islamic tradition, or of any other tradition.

[Anonymous No.22111776]

>>22111770
Absolutely this

[Anonymous No.22111778]

>>22111770
>transcended the exoteric detritus characteristic of the Islamic tradition, or of any other tradition
that's just atheism with extra steps

[Anonymous No.22111789]

>>22111732
>That is not the teaching of the religions like Christianity and Islam which both claim to teach absolute truth revealed by God.
At their core, religions are true. But not every single one of their dogmas has to be. Jesus said he was the way towards truth, not truth himself.

[Anonymous No.22111804]

>>22111663
This is gonna make people seethe but it is fundamentally true. By picking and choosing doctrines and studying religion like a nerd you remove the feeling and immeadiacy behind the doctrines.

[Anonymous No.22111807]

>>22111663
>"Traditionalism" is just religion for people who are fundamentally atheistic in their thinking and cannot actually bring themselves to believe in a personal God.
>The truth is, different religions contradict each other. Buddhism is not Catholicism is not Protestantism is not Islam is not Hinduism.
>These contradictions are not simply "incidental". They are enough to make people go to war.
>Sure, you can strip down all of the peculiar characteristics of each religion and find the "commonalities". But you'll end up with something so generic that it's basically Freemasonic deism.
>If you're going to be religious, be religious. Hold firm to the body of dogmas taught by your religion. If you're not sure about it, just be an atheist, agnostic or deist. Stop LARPing.

[Anonymous No.22111816]

>>22111770
Exactly. He's not a Muslim. He's an atheist, who can't stomach religion but wants to LARP. It's hypocritical.
>The Traditionalists study the truth in the religions and tell you what it is. The rest of the stuff is, as they repeat constantly, of contingent value.

LOL what? How do they know the truth? Are they wiser than the people who wrote the scriptures they "study"?

The Qu'ran says Jesus was not God. The Bible says Jesus was God. You can't reconcile these two.

What you are advocating is literally just deism which larps because of the supposed "value" of larping. It's utterly meaningless.

[Anonymous No.22111818]

>>22111699
What's funny is that religious logical positivists (yes those existed) analyzed religion exactly the same way, as merely some sort of non-truth apt method of eliciting soul elevation. They just analyzed "soul elevation" itself in terms of feeling and moral disposition, but it's funny to realize Traditionalism is frankly no better than fucking logical positivism in its approach to the truth-aptness of religious claims. Embarrassing. You guys larp as trads but you're really ravenous secular atheists and no amount of larp (Guenon himself must be accounted a larper) will change that.

[Anonymous No.22111856]

>>22111699
>the point of an exotic religion is not to teach truth (which is impossible)
Literally every religion on the planet disagrees.

[Anonymous No.22111864]

>>22111770
If you attend church but don't actually believe in the dogmas or think they are "irrelevant" you are being a hypocrite.

At every mass the creed is recited. It goes "I BELIEVE IN ONE GOD, CREATOR OF HEAVEN AND EARTH... IN JESUS CHRIST... IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH... and so on".

The reason it says that is because BELIEF in the dogmas is important to these religions. they have a real orthodoxy that they consider important.

If you go to church but don't believe, you're just LARPing.

Why not actually join a religion that agrees with your syncretism?

[Anonymous No.22111866]

>>22111663
And on top of that you have the problem that no religion is monolithic and they will just cherry-pick and twist the branches/theological schools that most superficially resemble, or are made to resemble by whoever is describing them to Europe, their position, regardless of how recent, synthetic or innovative that branch/theology is in relation of the tradition as a whole historically
Traditionalism seems much more the result of confirmation bias than the honest study of religious phenomena and philosophy

[Anonymous No.22111926]

>>22111816
>The Qu'ran says Jesus was not God. The Bible says Jesus was God. You can't reconcile these two.
I never said you have to, because it barely matters. Is all of Hinduism false because it relies on myths instead of empirical facts? Reality can be interpreted in different ways from different standpoints, because everything is symbolic.

>>22111818
No. Because at his core religion is true but the point of exoterism is salvation and getting closer to the divine. It is not a mere tool.

>>22111856
>extorism isn't true by itself
>but exoterism says it is so you should trust it

[Anonymous No.22111960]

>>22111926
>everything is symbolic
that's just relativism with extra steps, which is just atheism with extra steps

[Anonymous No.22111961]

>>22111663
Evola said that the personal God exists but that there is an unconditioned ground to all being that is likened to a 'supergod'.

[Anonymous No.22111964]

Advaita is just plagiarized Buddhism but even less consistent.

[Anonymous No.22111971]

>>22111960
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion. Atheism implies to not believe in anything divine, while Perennialism implies that every religion leads to the divine.

[Anonymous No.22111984]

>>22111926
>I never said you have to, because it barely matters.
YES IT ABSOLUTELY MATTERS.

Even if you say "all religions are symbolic", the symbol of the Incarnation and Crucifixion of God is ABSOLUTELY central to Christianity.

Catholicism is about uniting oneself with God, who is truly present in the Eucharist, and this very unification is possible because God the Son takes on human nature and offers himself up as a sacrifice to the Father.

The only commonality between these views is that both believe in God and salvation, but this position is just bare theism.

[Anonymous No.22111996]

>>22111984
Again, it doesn't matter wether it's absolutely true but wether it can indeed lead man to union with God.

[Anonymous No.22112002]

>>22111971
>religions that disagree with each other are both true
hence you are a relativist and therefore an atheist by process of elimination from having denied every religion's exclusivist claims (or you "believe" in a philosopher's god, who from a religious perspective is atheistic, e.g. Spinoza). Spiritual but not religious. Live laugh love.

[Anonymous No.22112004]

>>22111984
>Catholicism is about uniting oneself with God
Careful there armchair theologian

[Anonymous No.22112025]

>>22112002
>>religions that disagree with each other are both true
Can you please read the thread? No exoterism is not true by itself.

[Anonymous No.22112027]

>>22111996
By going to a church or a mosque and pretending to be a believer you are outwardly displaying your belief in the religion. If you don't actually have the belief it's a purely hypocritical, false act.

God is not the author of confusion. He does not set up random sects across the globe all disagreeing with each other and warring with each other. No. God revealed himself and set up a coherent body of doctrines for all men to follow.

>God hates the sacrifices of heretics and pushes them away from Himself, and whenever they come together in the name of the Lord, He abhors their stench, and holds His nose. -- Saint Jerome

[Anonymous No.22112039]

>>22111926
Correct. If you don't adhere to the beliefs of the religion, then you do not believe in it.

[Anonymous No.22112043]

>>22112027
>He does not set up random sects across the globe all disagreeing with each other and warring with each other.
You're right. They're not random.

[Anonymous No.22112049]

>>22112025
>exoterism is not true by itself
so you deny all religions and are an atheist

[Anonymous No.22112055]

>>22112049
No, because religion isn't only outward pratices.

[Anonymous No.22112058]

>>22112025
Abrahamic religions reject the entire idea of "esoteric" as a meaningful category except in as much as Yahweh's True Believers™©® are allowed to keep their beliefs secret from outsiders, but they aren't allowed to lie to each other.

The obvious problem with this is that Evola and friends were trying to mash together Indo-European religions (where esotericism is an actual thing) and Abrahamism (where it isn't), and that obviously doesn't work because their core axioms differ.

We're lucky that none of these goobers spoke Chinese and muddief this all up even more.

[Anonymous No.22112077]

>>22112055
Religion is outward practices and inward spirituality. But if you don't believe in what the outward practices represent, then you are being a hypocrite. Why would God be pleased with a hypocrite?
I go to Church every Sunday and recite the Nicene creed where I declare that I believe in God, in Jesus Christ, in the Holy Ghost, in baptism, and in the Catholic Church.
If I go there and confess all of this without actually believing, I AM A LIAR. Why would God be pleased with this?

[Anonymous No.22112078]

>>22112055
ok, redefine everything until your thesis is correct

[Anonymous No.22112081]

>>22112077
>But if you don't believe in what the outward practices represent
You can believe what pratices represent without considering them to be the only ones valid in history.

[Anonymous No.22112097]

>>22112081
You literally can't because if you believe in the Eucharist and the cross you automatically disbelieve in the Qu'ran.

If you believe there is one God you automatically disbelieve in paganism.

Don't you accept the law of non-contradiction?

[Anonymous No.22112106]

>>22112081
The Buddhistic notion of upaya does not apply to Christianity or Islam, whose adherents would have, historically, when they actually believed in the religion, on a good day, persecuted you for disagreeing with them. On a bad day, might have been the last time anyone heard from you.

[Anonymous No.22112115]

>>22112097
>Don't you accept the law of non-contradiction?
Unironically no

[Anonymous No.22112154]

>>22112106
It is absolutely just for a Christian king to use arms to prevent false teachers from poisoning the minds of society.

Buddha was fat, btw. That demonstrates that he was full of vice and not a man of God.

[Anonymous No.22112188]

>>22112154
>anti-semite
>worships a dead rabbi as god-king of the universe
in any case, thank you for agreeing with me that tradlarpers don't understand the religions they are cafeteria-izing

[Anonymous No.22112196]

>>22111778
>that's just atheism with extra steps
No, since he still accepts a deeper metaphysical conception of a non-dual Godhead

[Anonymous No.22112201]

>>22112188
Jews are the enemies of Christ. They slander Him and disrespect him in their disgusting “Talmud”. Of course every Christian should be an anti-Semite. Not in the childish materialistic sense, as though merely having Jewish blood is enough to make you evil, but certainly anyone who holds to the Talmud is a blasphemer and enemy of Christ.

[Anonymous No.22112202]

>>22112058
>Abrahamic religions reject the entire idea of "esoteric" as a meaningful category
Then where is the hidden symbolic meaning?

[Anonymous No.22112208]

>>22111964
advaita is the just exegesis of the Upanishads, Buddhism is less consistent attempt at jainism and sankhya, which are themselves based on the Upanishads

[Anonymous No.22112218]

>>22112202
There is none. Religion is about believing things. Abrahamic religion has to do these gay loops of allegory because "this rabbi got tortured to death therefore genital mutilation" is boring, but eventually you do have to stop somewhere.

[Anonymous No.22112224]

>>22112196
>deeper metaphysical conception of a non-dual Godhead
meaning there is no God as distinct from "everything else"—that is to say, the concept(s) of a distinct transcendental God advanced by the bulk of religious theologians are wrong and to be rejected, and thus you are an atheist toward those gods, but god as you have defined it is the god you affirm. You have merely reproduced the problem of the exoteric religions vis a vis one another (i.e. whose god is the true one?). The tradlarper simply views his religion as having completed all the other ones, which is the same argument Islam had with Christianity, Christianity with Judaism, Judaism with Egypt...

[Anonymous No.22112235]

>>22112201
You rely on them entirely and exclusively for scriptural and oracular evidence that one of their own was the messiah they themselves prophesized would be sent by their god. And then you get angry that they disagree with you about what their religion means. You are a rogue golem—the samsonian price they paid to bring down the Hellenistic world.

[Anonymous No.22112239]

>>22112208
Buddhism pre-dates samkhya and advaita

[Anonymous No.22112245]

>no you dont understand all the exoteric parts of abrahamism can be ignored they were really all crypto advaitins like myself t. guenon
This view is retarded. It is an explicit, hard and fast point of dogma in Abrahamic faiths that there is an uncrossable gulf between creator and created, and this is directly in contradiction to the Advaitic worldview. Full stop. You can never reconcile these two systems without compromising on one core belief or the other.

[Anonymous No.22112250]

>>22111663
I just want to slaughter all Abrahamists, but I admit, I would spend a little bit longer torturing the Christoids because I find them the most petty of all. I want to see if they still call out for their Jew on a stick during their final gasps.
All Abrahamists are icchantika and will suffer for trillions upon trillions of kalpas.

[Anonymous No.22112256]

>>22112235
This guy gets it.
Christcucks are even more annoying than Mudslimes and J*ws, which is saying a lot. I'd slaughter them all, but I'd keep a few Christcucks to make a spectacle out of their slow agonizing deaths.

[Anonymous No.22112265]

>>22111663
Institutional religion is rubbish. Faith in Christ alone, not of works, nor future deeds is all that is neccesary for eternal life. All "religion" is false.

[Anonymous No.22112269]

>>22112250
based half iranian buddhist glowposter

[Anonymous No.22112270]

>>22111663
>"Traditionalism" is just religion for people who are fundamentally atheistic in their thinking and cannot actually bring themselves to believe in a personal God.
Nope - it can be but it's not. Nice reddit spacing.
>Stop LARPing.
You do realize you don't go to Church because you're Mother Theresa but because you want to be more like the great saints? Belief is progressive and not strictly binary.

[Anonymous No.22112272]

>>22112235
Not only that, but for all his bluff and bluster he won't even do the one single thing that actually harms Judaism as a religion: denying the Choseness of the Jewish race.

[Anonymous No.22112277]

>>22112235
It’s not their religion. Moses was a Christian. Abraham was a Christian. If Muslims claim they believe in the Bible it doesn’t follow that Moses and Abraham were Muslims. So apply the same argument to Jews. They are, like Christ said throughout his life, false teachers who pervert the message of the Scriptures and if they had listened to Moses and Abraham they would’ve accepted Christ.

So no, I don’t rely on “them”. I rely on the Christian writers of the Old and New Teataments, and the Christian Church fathers.

As for bringing down the Hellenic world: Christianity civilised it. It did away with barbaric traditions like cousin-marriage, gladiatorial combat, chattel slavery, boyfucking/homosexuality.

My own country was the last to convert to Christianity in Europe. Our history was written by German crusaders, because when we were pagans we had no literary tradition and no civilisation. Christianity civilised and united Europe.

[Anonymous No.22112279]

>>22112270
>Belief is progressive and not strictly binary.
a happy Pride to you as well fellow Target shopper

[Anonymous No.22112284]

>>22112279
>a happy Pride to you as well fellow Target shopper
le trendy insult

[Anonymous No.22112285]

>>22112272
What the fuck are you talking about? Look up the doctrine of supersessionism. Jews are not Chosen, the Catholic Church has replaced Israel 2000 years ago.

[Anonymous No.22112286]

>>22112277
>Moses was a Christian. Abraham was a Christian
this is seriously delusional view to have; seek help

[Anonymous No.22112288]

>>22112250
good morning sir :)

[Anonymous No.22112291]

>>22112286
Abraham literally spoke to God incarnate, ie. Jesus Christ the son.

>If you had believed Moses, you would believe me.

[Anonymous No.22112296]

>>22112284
There's no insult, I am just celebrating with you that God is non-binary and tuck-friendly

[Anonymous No.22112298]

>>22112288
I would have preferred being an Indian Brahmin. At least they have a rich tradition unlike Iranshits, Euroshits, Arabshits, and other Caucasoid golems.

[Anonymous No.22112304]

>>22112291
so was jesus just kept on ice like captain walmart waiting to be thawed out after the Hasmonean wars ended?

[Anonymous No.22112307]

>>22112298
India is nothing. It is a shithole country colonised and dominated by Christian Europeans. Buddhism and Hinduism and Islam never raises these civilisations to any level of pride, honour, or decency. All they can do is wish they were European.

[Anonymous No.22112314]

>>22112304
>marvel references
Wow

[Anonymous No.22112317]

>>22112285
But you still think that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah as prophesied in the Jewish Prophesis in the Jewish holy book, which was written by Jews about Jews. Yes, you have an additional section about more Jews, written by other Jews, describing this Jewish messiah, but you don't deny the validity of Judaism, you just believe that you're adding onto it. Your entire conception of the validity of the Vatican is based on that of Judaism and Israel and the Jewish people. You still believe that the Jews are the Chosen People, you just have a slight quibble with them about what precisely that entails. What did the Vatican supercede? the Old Covenant, which you believe was valid for the first 4,000 years of the world's existence, and is still to some degree valid (otherwise you wouldn't cite Leviticus as proof that Yahweh doesn't like fags).

If you actually rejected the idea that Jews were the Chosen People, you'd think that they were always wrong, and instead of believing that the world was created 6,000 years ago in Israel, you'd think that the first people were created on a beach in Denmark by Odin, Vili, and Ve, or be talking about how Pandora lived a short walk north of what is now Thessaloniki.

[Anonymous No.22112323]

>>22112296
www.twitter.com

[Anonymous No.22112324]

>>22112314
I figured you'd be familiar with capeshit given you made Jesus into a time traveller

[Anonymous No.22112330]

>>22112307
You only care about a delusion concept of "progress", rooted in your logocentric Christoids understanding, rather than "self-realization", which is the goal of life.
Kys, rogue golem trash. You can conquer the entire world, yet still you will always be a hollow chauvinistic piece of shit.
You can keep whispering that Jew's name during the final moments of your life, and it won't matter. Kys and take your whole shit family with you.
I am glad I'm not a Euroshit, the most cultureless rootless golem in the entirety of human history. Now go pray to your Jew on a stick some more.

[Anonymous No.22112331]

>>22112323
No thanks, 4channel is my preferred internationally funded right-wing social media

[Anonymous No.22112342]

>>22112277
>we iz da reel jooz
ah yes the good old christian identity copers back at it again

[Anonymous No.22112343]

>>22112317
Moses and Abraham were Christians. The religion known as Judaism has no legitimate claim whatsoever to the Old Testament, any more than Mormonism, Islam, or any other religion which claims it. Just because they call themselves “Jews” does not mean they have continuity with Abraham. They are the Synagogue of Satan, false Jews, because Abraham was a Christian.
>>22112330
Keep shitting in the streets subhuman pagan

[Anonymous No.22112344]

>>22112330
>delusion
delusional*

[Anonymous No.22112364]

>>22112343
Keep shitting this Earth, subhuman Christcuck.
The only good Abrahamist is a dead Abrahamist.

Damn Christ and the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a maleficent force of darkness where not a single positive thing has come.
Damn Muhammad and Allah. I place superior idols before Allah.
Damn Moses and Jacob. A bunch of narcissistic Jews.

I would slaughter them all if I had power, but I would love to torture the Christcucks and see if they still cling onto their faith during their final moments. It would be pathetic if you did. I can just imagine you panting and screaming, "Jesus save me! Jesus save me!" As I laugh.

I'd gouge out your eyes and put fuschias in them so your carcass can be a feeder for the hummingbirds.

Every single Abrahamist deserves to die. I would burn all of your holy sites, architecture, and literature. I'd create bots on the Internet to wipe out all mention of your historical legacies.

I'd burn your cathedrals, your mosques, your synagogues. I'd crush your skulls and you will suffer for trillions upon trillions of kalpas.

You are insentient garbage.

[Anonymous No.22112373]

>>22112342
the posters in that pic are correct that there is a rupture between a Christian-West-Europe identity and the Indo-European continuum of traditional religion it scrapped for parts.

[Anonymous No.22112389]

>>22112342
Yes, read Isaiah 53, or the book of Daniel where it predicts Christ in very precise details. If the Jews believed these prophecies they would accept Christ. But they don’t. They don’t believe in the prophets God sent to Israel, they are liars.

[Anonymous No.22112398]

>>22111663
If by "fundamentally atheistic" you mean non-retards then sure. Plebs will never know god. Aquinas states that the day Labourer and glutton are ignorant and have to rely on Faith, and the educated man is solely capable of understanding higher-order thinking, including God, on a rational level.
>you can strip down all of the peculiar characteristics of each religion and find the "commonalities"
In the modern world we have enough information about comparative esotericism to see that different religions are approaches toward the transcendent. This is not saying that they are the "same thing" or compatible. That is a misunderstanding of Traditionalism.
>>22111864
Read the Gospel of Thomas. Belief in the church's dogma is not so much about Aristotelian 'isness' as it would seem. A large part of every religion is skilful means. Your post belies an inability to comprehend the immensity of God in comparison to yourself.
>>22112224
>you are an atheist toward those gods
There are no "those gods," those are just words. There's only a God and religions which worship Him and religions which don't.
>which is the same argument Islam had with Christianity, Christianity with Judaism, Judaism with Egypt...
And they were each right in calling out their predecessors. But all dogmas are stuck in time, i.e. absolutizing the relative.
>>22112077
You ultimately have to transcend the outward practices, being something contingent, just because of the nature of the inward spirituality. Your mistake is in thinking the traditionalists do away with the outward aspects of religion when they expressly don't. All they do is recognise the fallibility of it in the face of the transcendent non-dual godhead.
>>22112097
What do you think non-duality means? Yes it is insanity from a psychiatrist's view.
>>22112218
Religion is not merely about belief, it is about the symbolic. The world is a spiritual battleground of symbols who have a much deeper reality than us, what Guenon calls the "suprarational." Human belief is a very shallow thing, in most cases no deeper than mere words.
>>22111770
>>22111926
Good posts

[Anonymous No.22112410]

>>22112239
It doesn't predate Samkhya and in fact Buddha in the Pali Canon mentions that he studied under a teacher of an early form of Samkhya before his ostensible enlightenment. The particular way in which Advaita was later formalized happened after Buddhism but Brahminical circles were already talking about Advaita and putting it into the Upanishads before Buddha even lived, that's why the pre-Buddhist Upanishads are very explicit on non-duality.

[Anonymous No.22112412]

>>22112331
>internationally funded right-wing social media
>hates Christ
>is totally delusional
Every time

[Anonymous No.22112426]

>>22112245
>It is an explicit, hard and fast point of dogma in Abrahamic faiths that there is an uncrossable gulf between creator and created, and this is directly in contradiction to the Advaitic worldview. Full stop.
No it's actually not, Advaita doesnt say that the created and creator are the same. Consciousness is the uncreated creator, the illusory duplication of that conciousness as the jiva isn't the same as the creator.

[Anonymous No.22112429]

>>22112398
Lol, this is just Vatican II modernist liberal Freemasonic crap, which tries to claim that all religions are paths to God. And you mention Aquinas, who literally said that heretics deserve to be put to death for endangering souls:
>Heretics deserve not only to be separated from the Church by excommunication, but also to be severed from the world by death. For it is a much graver matter to corrupt the faith which quickens the soul, than to forge money, which supports temporal life. Therefore, if forgers of money and other evil-doers are condemned to death at once by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated, but even put to death.

If Aquinas believed that all religions are paths to God why the hell would he be so against heresy? After all it’s a path to God! We should all just hold hands and sing together!

This is just 60s Boomer hippie philosophy. There is only one faith, one baptism, one way to God. If people are saved in false religions, it’s because they’re invincibly ignorant of the truth.

[Anonymous No.22112435]

>>22112398
>all dogmas are stuck in time, i.e. absolutizing the relative.
right, that's what you are doing too... "traditionalism-perennialism" doesn't overcome the other religions it is merely an additional one

[Anonymous No.22112442]

>>22112410
>the pre-Buddhist Upanishads are very explicit on non-duality
the exegesis which yields this reading comes centuries after Buddhism spread through India and impelled a movement away from officiating ritual animal cookouts to please the Vedic gods

[Anonymous No.22112449]

>>22112412
You are not a Christian

[Anonymous No.22112460]

>>22112442
>the exegesis which yields this reading
That's just cope since you don't have to "do an exegesis" to get this reading but it follows in a straight-forward manner from the text. It says that the Self (Atman) is Brahman over and over in the pre-Buddhist Brihadaranyaka and Chandogya. They also connect plurality with illusion and ignorance.

"That Atman (Self) is indeed Brahman"
- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.4.5. (8th-7th century BC)

"explain to me the Brahman that is immediate and direct—the self that is within all.’ ‘This is your self that is within all.’ ‘Which is within all, Yājñavalkya?’ ‘That which transcends hunger and thirst, grief, delusion, decay and death"
- Brihadaranyaka 3.5.1. (8th-7th century BC)

"An ocean, a single seer without duality (advaita) becomes he whose world is Brahman, O King, Yajnavalkya instructed. This is his supreme way. This is his supreme achievement."
- Brihadaranyaka Upanishad 4.3.32. (8th-7th century BC)

"He is my Self and is in my heart. He is no other than Brahman."
- Chandogya Upanishad 3.14.4. (7th-6th century BC)

"This is the Self. It is immortal and also fearless. It is Brahman."
- Chandogya Upanishad 8.3.4. (7th-6th century BC)

[Anonymous No.22112462]

>>22112343
>Moses and Abraham were Christians
So, exactly as I said. You do believe that the Jews are the Chosen People, you just have a slight disagreement with them over the particulars of their practice. You aren't an Anti-Semite at all, and are totally willing to reject the biological reality of race just because Jews told you to.

[Anonymous No.22112474]

>>22112435
There is a religion beyond all religions. There always was. It is older than all religions. Traditionalism is just the rediscovery of that in profane terms.
>>22112429
You are putting words in my mouth. I never said any of that. And using a quote from Aquinas does not mean I agree with everything he ever said. The entire point of traditionalism is that it's not for everybody but the spiritual elite. For the rest, it is probably better to burn heretics than 'all hold hands and sing together.'

[Anonymous No.22112485]

>>22111663
>These contradictions are not simply "incidental". They are enough to make people go to war.
This isn't a really good argument you know

[Anonymous No.22112496]

>>22112208
>>22112410
>>22112460
This. The foundations of Buddhism were set in Hinduistic schools as a purely theoretical layout that it is possible to achieve Nirvana by virtue alone.

[Anonymous No.22112502]

>>22112462
I do not believe that the Jews commonly so called are the chosen people. I believe Christians are the chosen people.

As for race, of course there is a biological reality to it. But first of all the Jewish race is so mixed that you would have trouble tracing them back to the time of Christ. Jews in Europe speak Yiddish, a Germanised/Slavicised language, and over the course of history became pretty much phenotypically indistinguishable from Europeans. Plus, there is a theory that Ashkenazi Jews descend from the Khazar Empire which converted to Judaism in the Middle Ages; and the Khazars were a Turkic peoples.

There is a reality to race but I reject the idea that race is the most important thing. It’s just an average. So blacks are on average inferior to whites, but it doesn’t follow that no black men of good character exist. Ashkenazi Jews (considered in a purely racial sense) are on the whole rotten, because they hate Christ, but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any good ones who converted.

[Anonymous No.22112521]

>>22112460
But it took over a thousand years to formally package this and emphasize it in scholastic dispute with other Indian philosophical schools?

[Anonymous No.22112530]

>>22112474
>Traditionalism is just the rediscovery of that in profane terms.
and Plato was an Attic Moses, so says the syncreticist naturally

[Anonymous No.22112531]

>>22112474
You quoted Aquinas as though he were a member of the “spiritual elite”, but as you can see he firmly believed that Christ was the only way to God, such that he wanted the state to kill heretics for spreading their false messages.

Was Jesus Christ a member of the spiritual elite? Then why did he say “no man cometh to the Father but by me?”

All I see is, you’re a rationalistic atheist at heart. You’re afraid of admitting miracles, dogmas, creeds, or orthodoxy. For you it’s just about the “experience” of going to mass. But going to mass without Christ, getting married in the Church without Christ, being baptised without Christ, all of it is vanity, because all of these things point to Christ.

[Anonymous No.22112554]

>>22112502
Mizrahim are 100% Jewish with no outside admixture and follow the religion laid out in the Old Testament. Do you think that there was ever a time when this group, practicing this religion, in accordance with the Old Testament, was doing so incorrectly? Were the ancestors of the Mizrahim circa 300BC "getting it wrong" for practicing the religion of the Jewish people circa 300BC?

[Anonymous No.22112571]

>>22112554
Yes, they did so incorrectly because the Old Testament is a Christian book which predicts Christ. So if they actually believed Moses and the Prophets, they would be Christians, not “Jews”.
It’s a rather simple concept and you keep asking the same thing.

[Anonymous No.22112572]

>>22112531
>such that he wanted the state to kill heretics for spreading their false messages
This is not at odds with traditionalism per se.
>You’re afraid of admitting miracles, dogmas, creeds, or orthodoxy.
Traditionalism admits all of these things. It is not rationalist. But dogmas at their best are for inseminating knowledge to the lower orders and at their worst control systems based on outright lies and countertradition. All that is transitory is but symbol.

[Anonymous No.22112578]

>>22112502
an angry and confused golem typed this post

[Anonymous No.22112583]

>>22112571
So the Old Testament is incorrect then? Are you suggesting that the Prophets David, Solomon, Ezekiel, etc, were wrong?

[Anonymous No.22112590]

>>22112571
time-travel is my favorite christlarper argument as to why they are they real rabbis— I can't help but grin every time I see it, the cope of a truly desperate and impaired mind

[Anonymous No.22112592]

>>22112571
>>22112583
Christcucks are the bottom of the barrel of their race. Everything is reduced to their homoeroticism for that "chosen" Jew.

[Anonymous No.22112598]

>>22112572
It’s at odds with Traditionalism because he did so for the reason that heresy endangers souls.

Anyway, what you’re saying is anti-Christian. You need to stop pretending it’s compatible with Christianity. In fact, the Popes (the very top of the “spiritual elite”) taught it is tantamount to atheism.

Pope Pius XI:
>For since they hold it for certain that men destitute of all religious sense are very rarely to be found, they seem to have founded on that belief a hope that the nations, although they differ among themselves in certain religious matters, will without much difficulty come to agree as brethren in professing certain doctrines, which form as it were a common basis of the spiritual life. For which reason conventions, meetings and addresses are frequently arranged by these persons, at which a large number of listeners are present, and at which all without distinction are invited to join in the discussion, both infidels of every kind, and Christians, even those who have unhappily fallen away from Christ or who with obstinacy and pertinacity deny His divine nature and mission. Certainly such attempts can nowise be approved by Catholics, founded as they are on that false opinion which considers all religions to be more or less good and praiseworthy, since they all in different ways manifest and signify that sense which is inborn in us all, and by which we are led to God and to the obedient acknowledgment of His rule. Not only are those who hold this opinion in error and deceived, but also in distorting the idea of true religion they reject it, and little by little. turn aside to naturalism and atheism, as it is called; from which it clearly follows that one who supports those who hold these theories and attempt to realize them, is altogether abandoning the divinely revealed religion.

[Anonymous No.22112601]

>>22112583
You must be trolling at this point. I’ve told you 1000 times that the Old Testament is a Christian book which predicts Christ. Read Isaiah 53.

[Anonymous No.22112606]

Traditionalism is larper atheism. The so-called intuitions of the divine are actually very consistent with atheism; they're only inconsistent with naturalism. You people are not religious, and every religion should brand you as heretics because that's what you are. You have no place in any religion.

[Anonymous No.22112612]

>>22112601
That's a bit like saying Snow White is a Japanese anime

[Anonymous No.22112620]

>>22111663
At the end of the day Traditionalists just want a transcendental grounding for a critique of sexual promiscuity and/or "Materialism", it's obviously insincere

[Anonymous No.22112625]

>>22112606
Yeah my hippy cousin believes the exact same shit. She has a picture of Buddha (but not of Christ) in her house and calls herself “spiritual, but not religious”. It’s exactly the same type of effeminate, atheistic Orientalism that hippies preach. It’s 60s boomer philosophy.

[Anonymous No.22112634]

>>22112601
This is the second time you have dodged instead of answering the question. Were the Jewish people circa 300BC practicing the, for the time, correct religion? Yes or no. Anything else will be taken by the audience as a concession that Christianity is a false religion and that you are merely playing pretend on the internet.

[Anonymous No.22112636]

>>22112521
>But it took over a thousand years to formally package this and emphasize it in scholastic dispute with other Indian philosophical schools?
It was never a formal scholastic tradition in the first place but an esoteric spiritual understanding/instruction transmitted from teacher to student, there was a long and slow process of this being gradually becoming more and more open and consequently more formally organized and less and less secret until it is engaging in open debate with other philosophies as a formal school that expounds its positions in the public sphere, the writings from the 1st millennium AD are just the earliest ones that survived till the present day but there are other even earliar writings and non-dualist thinkers which are referenced in early Advaita texts but which don't survive.

The abundance of quotes in the early Puranas and Mahabharata talking about non-dualism attest to prominent groups of non-dualist thinkers and writers in the 400 BC-100 BC era because their philosophical ideas about non-duality are showing up in the texts composed and redacted around that time even though we don't have surviving scholastic-style works from them until another few centuries later, although there were likely scholastic-style works that simply don't survive till today.

[Anonymous No.22112640]

>>22111663
What causes the Traditionalist physognomy? The three of them are ugly, have sunken eyes, and long noses. Is it something about their physique that causes them to become larper atheists chuds?

[Anonymous No.22112646]

>>22112636
This is true of the later Upanishads too, which often get so explicit about non-duality that it almost looks directly taken from Advaita writings

[Anonymous No.22112648]

>>22112634
No, as a generality they were not, but there were a few righteous men and prophets among them.

The nation as a whole was rotten, which is why Jesus cursed them (symbolised by cursing the fig tree).

>Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered together thy children, as the hen doth gather her chickens under her wings, and thou wouldest not?

[Anonymous No.22112658]

>>22112648
You disgrace your entire line of ancestors by obsessing about the petty squabbles of schizophrenic Levantines. You are an utter ingrate. Jewsus was an irrelevant Jew from the Levant, and there was absolutely nothing special about him. You weren't there, and it's not something you can't experience for yourself. It's just due to conditioned and being a weak-willed insentient garbage fag you've been duped into embracing this lesser and retarded tradition.

[Anonymous No.22112661]

>>22112648
So then as I stated, you do believe that the Jews are the Chosen People (because that's what the righteous men and prophets were saying), you just have a slight disagreement with them over the particulars of their practice. You aren't an Anti-Semite at all, and are totally willing to reject the biological reality of race just because Jews told you to. In fact, you believe that Jewish racial purity is an indicator of virtue, hence why you attacked the racial purity of the Ashkenazim and immediately dodged the question when the purity of the Mizrahim was brought up.

Given this, why not just come out and say it? Why are you pretending to be a racist when you clearly aren't? Do you seriously think that you're going to hoodwink Nazis into becoming Methodists or whatever globohomo denomination you're shilling?

[Anonymous No.22112704]

>>22112658
My pagan ancestors were civilised by Christians. The kings of my country, which by the way was the last in Europe to convert to Christianity, are only known because of manuscripts written by Christian German crusaders. It is only after we were Christianised that we had our Dukes writing letters to the Pope in Latin and actually developed a literary tradition and history. The pagan religion had no scriptures, no oral tradition, no dogmas, no theology, no beautiful architecture, nothing. And now the neopagan larpers here try to “reconstruct” the old religion from folk tales and songs. This is not honouring your ancestors, it’s dishonouring your civilisation.
>>22112661
The Jews were carnal. They didn’t understand the spiritual realities Christ was teaching.

I’m an anti-Semite in that I believe the group called “Jews” today are enemies of Christ. I’m a racist because of IQ stats and certain other reasons. For me it’s a purely scientific thing. I understand that race is just an average and individuals can be good, just, and virtuous even if they belong to an inferior race. You were the one who brought up race, not me.

[Anonymous No.22112710]

>>22112636
>an esoteric spiritual understanding/instruction transmitted from teacher to student
that's a hallmark of medieval Indian tantrism, probably not as old as you think

[Anonymous No.22112716]

>>22112704
If you're Lithuanian, or whatever flavor of Balt you mean, why are you larping as a gay Liberal and not practicing Romuva, your people's actual religion? The EU and NATO already told your government that you're allowed to be Nazis to avoid Russian genocide, hell they even chastised it for doing the cuckservative bit and not letting your actual religion do weddings, so why bother? You could be doing far more for your people and country by helping to rebuild an actual spiritual center.

[Anonymous No.22112717]

>>22112704
>no scriptures, no oral tradition, no dogmas, no theology, no beautiful architecture, nothing
sounds kino

[Anonymous No.22112718]

>>22112704
>My pagan ancestors were civilised by Christians.
More like they were turned into self-hating fools who doomed the entire world with their logocentric understanding of "salvation", which led to the cancer of industrialization and now heaps upon heaps of complex problems creating unpercendented emergent issues.
If you remained pagan, you would have been living in homogenous villages in connection with the land; you wouldn't be creating endless problems to your own detriment in the name of your disgusting Jew on a stick.
If there is a God, you won't find him via Abrahamic buffoonery.

[Anonymous No.22112739]

>>22112704
>The pagan religion had no scriptures, no oral tradition, no dogmas, no theology, no beautiful architecture, nothing.
So jew-worshipers smashed all of your peoples stuff, ergo... you have to worship a jew now? You guys have a pretty popular neopagan movement, and they actually have kids unlike the rest of your country, go make new scriptures, traditions, dogmas, etc. It's what the Jews did when the invented all of that fake David and Solomon stuff, if you're really an anti-semite then you won't think that their fake LARP is any more real than yours.

[Anonymous No.22112745]

>>22112648
>(symbolised by cursing the fig tree).
Jesus was just dumb. It wasn't the right season for fruits

[Anonymous No.22112746]

>>22112716
Because Romuva doesn’t exist. Like I said they claim to have “reconstructed” the religion based on folk tales and songs. The pagans didn’t leave any actual tangible history behind, so that’s all they can do. It’s a pure larp because they will never be able to go back and determine how the religion was actually practised. For example this (https://youtu.be/JnFLiAiOHbg).). There is no evidence these chants or dances ever existed in Lithuanian paganism. It’s just completely made up.

As for LGBT stuff, romans and Greek pagans were full of faggots and child molestors, but Christianity civilised them too. Christianity also ended chattel slavery and gladiatorial combat. It ended cousin marriage, thus raising European IQs. It basically created Europe.
>>22112718
Lol, neopagan larper.
>>22112739
You’re a materialist, you can only think in terms of material race. You’re therefore just like the Jews you despise, who being carnal could not see the spiritual realities Christ taught.

[Anonymous No.22112756]

>>22111789
Kek he literally said he is the truth

[Anonymous No.22112762]

>>22112746
>Lol, neopagan larper
I'm not a neopagan, but I do respect them unlike you.

[Anonymous No.22112767]

>>22112746
We need to bring back thunderdome

[Anonymous No.22112771]

>>22112746
>Because Romuva doesn’t exist.
http://romuva.lt/
I counted 30 unique people on the front page alone sans this photo (I did not count the priestess lady who shows up multiple times). So, no, Romuva does actually exist, and it's able to amass more people together in acts of worship than Christianity is. It's also able to get Lithuanians to breed, something that Christianity not only cannot do but is actively working to prevent. Christianity is all made up too, you know it, so what's the problem? You're just pretending to be Christian for attention from Westerners, and you have four Westerners on here telling you to go make friends with some other tree worshippers and have fun praying around bonfires, so there's your excuse.

Why fade away into nothing? Why hate yourself? The future of your country is Romuva, whether you like it or not. Think of it as the next Supercession.

[Anonymous No.22112784]

religiousfags are fucked, but christcucks are really on another level

[Anonymous No.22112794]

>>22112746
>Christianity ended cousin marriage
El Hechizado

[Anonymous No.22112799]

>>22112710
>that's a hallmark of medieval Indian tantrism, probably not as old as you think
Long before the medieval Tantra schools were a thing the Upanishads already are explicit that the instruction about the Brahman-Atman is only supposed to be explained to a qualified disciple and not spoken of openly. The later formalization of Vedanta is just the natural codification and emergence into semi-public debate among intellectuals of the esoteric spiritual teaching that had always been orally transmitted alongside the Vedas and which is made explicit in the Upanishads through metaphors and various kinds of imagery but in a non-scholastic manner. The emergence of the Agamas and Tantras body of texts later that Tantric Hinduism are based on along with their associated esoteric oral teaching is actually just repeating the model that the earliest Upanishads were already doing in the 8th-7th century BC even before Buddha came along.

[Anonymous No.22112807]

>>22112771
I was obviously speaking metaphorically. It exists as a movement but it has no continuity with the pagan religions it claims to “revive” because they simply left nothing behind other than uncertain traces that can only be found in folk tales and songs.
Christianity is fertile, it’s just that we live in a feminist, post-Christian society. The Popes were against all of the “female liberation” movements as they were gaining ground in Europe, and stressed the necessity of girls being educated separately from boys and women staying at home to raise the family.
The Catholic Church bans contraception, homosexuality, and fornication. It’s just that European man no longer believes in God.
I’m not trying to impress Westerners nor do I hate myself. Lithuania is a historically Catholic country. Paganism represents Lithuania in its infancy; Catholicism represents Lithuania in its adulthood. Liberal secularism represents Lithuania in its death.

[Anonymous No.22112813]

>>22112794
It was a Christian Roman emperor who outlawed cousin marriage. The Catholic Church was very strict about this. Yes there were people who disobeyed. But unlike paganism or Islam, the Christian influence upon Europe was eugenic in nature since it raised the IQs by outlawing incest.

[Anonymous No.22112819]

>>22112813
>eugenic in nature
yes making the most educated people and second sons of the nobility swear to be celibate was surely eugenic

[Anonymous No.22112830]

>>22112799
anything earlier than the literature is a question of faith as to whether it was transmitted orally with any accuracy or not

[Anonymous No.22112838]

>>22112710
That's just how civilizations were organized before the spreading out of the western anomaly.
The close transmission of knowledge between master and disciple is universal, found everywhere in the world and it's way older than what you call 'history'. What do you think the mediavel guilds or greek mysteries were? That's what constitutes a tradition.
>>22112521
the demons of historicism and evolutionism...

Remember that not only Shankara and Gaudapada, but also Baradaryana makes reference and appeals to the 'knowers of tradition', sampradayavid. The fact that Shankara wrote all that is actually a sign that the doctrine (which already existed and was transmitted to him by Gaudapada) itself was being corrupted and needed rectification. Sureshwara also refutes other 'advaitic' schools and it should be noted that other vedantic schools (bedhabedha, vishishtadvaita, dvaita, dvaitadvaita, etc) appeared only later and were not mentioned by Shankara.

Advaita IS and has ALWAYS been the doctrine of the Upanishads as it's clearly attested by those excerpts and many many more. Even the methods (pañcakosá, avasthatraya, anvaya-vyatireka, etc) exposed by Shankara were already found in the oldest upanishads.

[Anonymous No.22112851]

>>22112838
you have a constant bubbling and mutation of ideas and beliefs over history; it's only a lack of evidence that lets us assume gaps indicate stasis

[Anonymous No.22112877]

>>22111663
Unbelievably filtered

[Anonymous No.22112894]

>>22112807
>hate myself
Original Sin implies some self-loathing.

[Anonymous No.22112901]

>>22112807
>It exists as a movement but it has no continuity with the pagan religions it claims to “revive”
Who cares? The point of the religion is to worship the Gods. If there's Gods, then they're real and "lineage" (whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean) doesn't matter because they're real and exist. If there are no Gods, then they aren't real, so "lineage" (again, whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean) doesn't matter because a "lineage" that points to something that doesn't exist is pointless anyways. Muslims have an older lineage than Lithuania Catholics, does that mean that Islam is the one true religion? The Jews today are practicing the religion that they were practicing 2,600 years ago, and you yourself said that it's wrong to do that, so you don't actually care about "lineage".

>Christianity is fertile
The Lithuanian birthrate is 1.7.

>The Popes were against all of the “female liberation” movements
And now they've changed their mind and the next Pope will not only remove the ban on abortion, cousin marriage, and mandate female clergy. Why? Because that's what the Sinodal Path, which will be picking the next Pope, wants. Where is the Sinodal Path based? Germany. Germans forced poz on you once, and you're cheering them on, hoping that they do it again?

>Paganism represents Lithuania in its infancy; Catholicism represents Lithuania in its adulthood. Liberal secularism represents Lithuania in its death.
So it's just a death cult. You don't want to continue to exist, you want to become numb to the world and cease to be. The Romuvar (or whatever the mass plural in English is) clearly want to continue existing as they have a fertility rate above 1.7. You very clearly do care what Westerners think as you're pretending to be Catholic instead of your people's real religion, AND are doing the "fertile catholics" meme despite the fact that it is not true for your country. You are repeating a meme because you think that it's what we want to hear.

So, either way, you're incentivized to actually give a shit and be Romuva, either to thumb your nose at foreign interlopers like me, or to please me. We in the West literally pray for you guys to grab your balls and give a shit.

[Anonymous No.22112903]

>>22112830
>anything earlier than the literature is a question of faith as to whether it was transmitted orally with any accuracy or not
The Upanishads themselves explicitly attest to the transmission of an esoteric word of mouth spiritual instruction that is *related to* the text's contents, *which are explicitly about non-duality*, which is pretty strong evidence that the esoteric instruction is related to that and is the full explanation of it. Since the time of the earliest pre-Buddhist Upanishads that repeat "Atman is Brahman", there is a continuous non-stop series of texts every century or so mentioning non-duality all the way from the pre-Buddhist era down to Shankara's time (both anonymous texts like Primary Upanishads, minor Upanishads, Mahabharata, Puranas, and individuals like Bhartrari and Gaudapada and earlier individuals that Shankara cites).

Whether this 'proves' anything is besides the point, since all this constitutes ample and sufficient evidence to conclude that there was always an internal esoteric stream talking about non-dual/monistic conceptions of a Brahman Godhead within Hinduism since at least the time of the earliest Upanishads (since they refer to an already existing secretive tradition and are almost like part of that tradition's internal notes). You don't need ultimate "proof" to see that it's a reasonable conclusion or that it is evident that it was a stream of thought that was continuously present within Hinduism from the Upanishads till now, even if other ones have also long been present alongside it too.

[Anonymous No.22112907]

>>22112364
most peaceful buddhist

[Anonymous No.22112927]

>>22112851
You have some preconceived views that makes you examine some matters as if they should or could be enclosed within this made up framework.

As something like a master-disciple relationship, doctrinal stability (any kind of stability, desu), etc escapes from the clutches of historicism, you have to look at it as something abnormal. The very notion of 'mutation of ideas and beliefs' is entirely foreign to a tradition called a-dvaita.

[Anonymous No.22112940]

>>22112838
>and it should be noted that other vedantic schools (bedhabedha, vishishtadvaita, dvaita, dvaitadvaita, etc) appeared only later and were not mentioned by Shankara.
They did not appear in that exact formulation as the founders of those schools wrote their ideas but Shankara refers to other non-Advaita teachers and textual interpretations of his time or earlier who claimed to interpret the Upanishads a certain way that is closer to dualism or identity-in-difference and Shankara writes refutations of their views throughout his works, one such example is Bhartṛprapañca, who appears to have espoused identity-in-difference and whose ideas Shankara criticizes on some 6 or 7 separate occasions in his Brihadaranyaka Upanishads Bhashya. Shankara of course also refers to multiple Advaitin teachers before his own time as well.

https://www.hindupedia.com/en/Bhart%E1%B9%9Bprapa%C3%B1ca

[Anonymous No.22113013]

>>22112940
Yeah. But what I mean is that Advaita is not just 'another' interpretation of the Upanishads. But It's actually THE doctrine of the upanishads. Dualistic interpretations are simply deviations or they're 'incomplete' doctrines as Non-duality is the final position.

to be honest, advaita can't even be considered a 'position':
"17. The dualists obstinately cling to the conclusions arrived at by their own enquiries (as being the truth). So they contradict one another; whereas the Advaitin finds no conflict with them."

[Anonymous No.22113079]

>>22113013
>Yeah. But what I mean is that Advaita is not just 'another' interpretation of the Upanishads. But It's actually THE doctrine of the upanishads. Dualistic interpretations are simply deviations or they're 'incomplete' doctrines as Non-duality is the final position.
I agree but I also don't rule out that there can possibly have been incomplete or faulty interpretations that were present very early on or from the beginning among a certain portion of the people present and those who followed their instruction. These largely amount to a more indirect and slower route to the same end goal.

>to be honest, advaita can't even be considered a 'position':
>"17. The dualists obstinately cling to the conclusions arrived at by their own enquiries (as being the truth). So they contradict one another; whereas the Advaitin finds no conflict with them
Shankara doesn't understand this verse to be saying that Advaita has "no position" that it endorses or accepts like certain interpretations of Nagarjuna claim about him but rather Shankara glosses that verse by explaining it to just be saying that since the Advaitin considers his Self to be the very Self of all beings including the Vaisheshikas, Nyayins etc that the Advaitin doesn't see others as being his enemies in the same way that one's own body parts are not an enemy to the body.

[Anonymous No.22113110]

>>22113079
To add, in his same explanation of that verse he says that the teachings of other schools are to be rejected because they contradict both the Vedas and reason, even though the Advaitin doesn't consider anyone to be an enemy ultimately since there is no enemy in ultimate reality.

So clearly, he is not intending to argue that the Advaitin has "no position", although he agrees that the Advaitin has "nothing to prove" since you don't need to prove anything logically via syllogisms etc for the liberating knowledge of the Upanishads to succeed; he engages in philosophical critiques of other schools to explain explain why Advaita is more reasonable and consistent than them and to help eliminate doubts about it, but without his teaching of Advaita being in any need of those critiques or of any logical proofs in general in order to instruct someone in the essentials of Advaita, since this does not require any logical proofs.

[Anonymous No.22113278]

>>22111789
but he did tho
>I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me.

[Anonymous No.22113295]

>>22111663
I feel like you don't understand what traditionalism even means if you think that differences in culture are not an integral part of that understanding.

The basic premise of traditionalism is that different societies developed different traditions to fit their particular history, geography, circumstances, etc. We aren't looking for "commonalities" that's for faggots who are chasing universalism, and yes that includes faggots who are totally "based trad catholics" or whatever who think the entire world should be ruled by their singular dogma, that's not traditionalism.

[Anonymous No.22113414]

>>22113278

Man does not dwell in pure immediacy~ he lives in a world of symbolic forms. Transcendence can appear on the human plane only through these forms~ it cannot appear directly because it transcends by definition the plane's spatiotemporal categories. Symbols for their part consist of a form/content complex. Exoterics are persons whose meanings derive from forms that are more restricted in scope than are those of esoterics. One is tempted to say that their forms are more concrete. but this could be misleading. for it would imply that esoteric forms are. in contrast. abstract and hence vacuous-shells of reality only. so to speak. Beyond a certain level of generality symbols do appear abstract in this denatured sense to exoterics. but to esoterics they remain full-bodied if anything thereby gaining in force and reality.

An infant, once he can identify his mother, equates her initially with her tactile or visual presence; if she leaves the room she ceases to exist and the infant cries. Everyone agrees that it is an advance in understanding when '"Mother" acquires for the child a reference more extended than '"a
certain X in my visual or tactile field." But when we continue up the scale of extended meanings to '"No man cometh unto he Father. but by me," men divide. For esoterics .. "me" will designate the Logos. For exoterics, less supple in their capacity for '"spiritual abstraction," in precise proportion as the word relaxes its hold on the concrete historical personage of Jesus of Nazareth. the assertion forfeits its saving power.

Another way to indicate the distinction is to say that for the exoteric form and content are less distinguishable. As they present themselves to him as welded together or fused in a homogeneous alloy. he sees no way of having one without the other. By this alternate route we arrive at the same conclusion: forms for exoterics are relatively non-negotiable. Esoterics ride them more loosely, knowing that because they are finite they are. at best, limited keys to the lock, restricted doors to the mystery.

[Anonymous No.22113424]

>>22111663
>Anthropomorphized gods are the only way to conceive of gods.
This is why Plato banished the poets. Get off of my board.

[Anonymous No.22113427]

>>22112625
>Love is effemenite, le hippies bad, le gay le homosexual

You are a complete fucking prude, and you are in for a rude awakening motherfucker, if you had done even a 1/5th of the psychedelics hippies have done your fragile pseud worldview would be crushed. Love is a deeply fundamental principle, you lack a soul, your cousin who at least is a seeker of truth is closer to it than you, and I find her outwardness and weirdness of expression funny and cute. You on the other hand are a soulless incel, if you have ever been close to death you will realize that you have to love and get it all out of your system, hug your cousin and tell her you appreciate her and that she has a beautiful soul, get real narcissistic fuckwit.

[Anonymous No.22113447]

>>22111663
Quick question bros, I’m a retard in philosophy and have no clue about it, my end goal is to read and understand Nietzsche, who/what should I read to do so?

[Anonymous No.22113459]

>>22113295
Any post accompanied by a BAP quote should be taken as satire

[Anonymous No.22113472]

>>22111663
I will cut to the chase, christ maybe preached nondualism, you can find some earlier gnostic gospels which are more explicit even if most of them are still steeped in cosmological speculations. Christianity today doesn't and the arrogant population of Christians here who have usually differentiated themselves by becoming more specialized"orthodox" (dyer shit pseud vomit) or online "trad caths" and who constantly shit on a generalized "perennialism" unlike say rama coomaraswamy, is done because these people are NPC-drone hylics who like worker bees Must serve a queen Bee/generic authority, they need an exterior or periphery sense of officiality to lube up their egos, all of the hostile larp we see here from them is mostly done out of a sort of sentimental pride or arrogance where they for the most part try to decieve and delude people away from the truth of non-dualism, based in historical arguments and wounds, islam features more prominently as an enemy, and vice a versa, all these online christchuds have Islamic copies.

Intuition of the reality of the great soul of all even the dualist christchud, the one who does not fall asleep and dissolve, or change through awakening to the morning light, that which witnesses the night alongside the day,which is present and clear even in through the most delusory of dreams, between thoughts and infinite, effulgent unbound by time and space. is God, and seeing this supreme God in All, is the great truth of this existence.

[Anonymous No.22113491]

>>22113472
>Christianity today doesn't
I will say if you take it as a metaphor, it works quite nicely under the condition that you see it about becoming Christ, and divine, but unless the universality of this divinity is properly understood and the true meaning of the "nullity of the ego" as humility is at least somewhat comprehended you are in for a Cul de sac of "holier than thou" larping

[Anonymous No.22114003]

>>22111686
>"bare theism" or deism.
it's interesting to remember that for Jacobi theism was crypto-atheism, believing in a trascendental principle(like truth) is not the same as believing in a God, since atheist also believe in a fundamental truth or virtue

[Anonymous No.22114018]

>>22111926
>Reality can be interpreted in different ways from different standpoints, because everything is symbolic.
and this is why Guenon is the true father of postmodernism, Guenon really is to the postmodernist what Shankara was to the Buddhist

[Anonymous No.22114028]

>>22114018
>Guenon (pbuh) retroactively refuted postmodernism
>Shankara (pbuh) retroactively refuted Buddhism

Based!

[Anonymous No.22114036]

>>22112208
not at all, Buddhism comes from the Sramanic tradition which is not realted to the Vedantic tradition, Buddha was from a empire that had no brahmins and was ruled by a warrior class and worship a solar God
>advaita is the just exegesis of the Upanishads,
true but the exegesis is made from a Buddhist framework, thanks to Gaudapapa that studied Madhyamaka buddhism

[Anonymous No.22114055]

>>22114028
>>22114028
>retroactively refuted
on the contrary, he just sell the same thing disguised as its opposite, postmodernism disguised as traditionalism, the far right traditionalism to crypto-far left structuralism is insane but real, the french are indeed degenerates