/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22099779]

>nobody wishes to be miserable and unhappy

I don't know if I buy this one guys

[Anonymous No.22099848]

i've been thinking about this question for like 10 years and i still haven't come to a solid conclusion. i alternate between agreeing and disagreeing every year or so

[Anonymous No.22099870]

The spiteful do, it it means they can prove their point.
The self-pitying do, that is more complex as they harvest a perverted pleasure out of their own misery, or, at other times, a sense of chosenness that becomes integral to their identity.

[Anonymous No.22099872]

>>22099870
Nah, that is because they are already miserable and can't get out of it.

[Anonymous No.22099876]

>>22099872
Some may rationalize pre-existing misery, but others may simply be perverted and defective (and ultimately self-destructive), or enacting a kind of rebellion or exercise in the freedom of the human mind ("because I can").

[Anonymous No.22099903]

>>22099876
nta, being pervertedly anti-self/defective is still rationalizing, just in the form of abstract self-dishonesty.

[Anonymous No.22099923]

>>22099903
Not really.

Sometimes the programming is just fucked on a very primitive level creating minds that are not at all analogous to our own, at some level and have very different goals and drives and outcomes.

I think the difference is how expansive we think the sphere of possible minds that our "species" can produce is. Yours being much more restrictive, mine being that there a multiple beings that use the same skin and bones that are phenomenologically gulfs apart.
It is easy to assume that because we are confined to roughly the same physical form, the same language and methods for interpersonal communication that the beings communicating must necessarily be as restricted as the methods they are forced to resort to.
Your position is that these are a reflection, I see them mostly as an intersubjective bottleneck.

[Anonymous No.22099956]

>>22099779
The miserable people who want to be miserable get gratification out of their misery so it isn't true misery but rather the appearance of misery for outsiders or else it is some BDSM type gratification from self harm.

[Anonymous No.22100088]

>>22099848
Basically the same for half of the questions raised by Plato's assumptions. They're so far from the modern line of thinking yet you can never simply refute them.

[Anonymous No.22101226]

>>22099779
its because you're thinking of exceptions first, rather than accepting the rule then trying to understand individually. but yes, every person wishes to be happy, and you might see someone who does something which makes them unhappy, this doesn't reflect their "wish". "wish" and will are separated in Gorgias.

[Anonymous No.22101266]

>>22099956
Circular reasoning

[Anonymous No.22101271]

YES
People end up where they want to be.

[Anonymous No.22101281]

You can see how deranged and removed from their own humanity the neets on here are by all the people saying yes in this thread.

[Anonymous No.22101540]

>>22099779
>Student: Socrates says: Do they think evil to be good when they seek it or do they actually recognize it to be evil? Meno says that both can happen, [and said earlier] that people can desire the good although recognizing it to be evil. Now the reason that he’s defeated by Socrates is because he contradicts himself later on and denies that people could have the evil and know it [to be] evil, and yet get the benefit. Now we know Meno is a person who is trying to win victories in his arguments with Socrates, so why doesn’t he try to preserve his position by following lower down here—

>LS: But is not the most simple answer this: that he has not reflected sufficiently on what it means to desire bad things? To desire morally evil things is—if Meno is already the criminal we presume, it is no difficulty for Meno to understand. But Meno surely doesn’t want to be miserable. Now think of Mr. [Sam] Giancana. Surely he wishes to have all the good things, the good things of which he knows, but he doesn’t wish to be miserable. He is now very miserable in the jails, you know. So I think Meno simply has not considered that desiring the bad things means, if it is elaborated, desiring one’s own unhappiness. Now we have heard so much about people who like to torment themselves and in this sense like to be miserable. But the question is whether this is not only a
complicated form of desiring happiness. I mean, if they despair of becoming happy they might find it as a help to torment themselves. In other words, that is a complicated derivative mode of the desire for happiness; that would be of course Plato’s and Aristotle’s answer. There is no desire, no natural primary desire for the bad as bad. There can be a derivative one; for example, people can get kicks, if this is a proper term, out of bad things, but then of course it is their belief in their own courage, bravery, or however you call it which is the good which they desire in seemingly striving for the bad. This is no serious difficulty

[Anonymous No.22101550]

>>22101281

[Anonymous No.22101554]

>>22101266
No, because you see if you WANT misery then it isn’t true misery which is unexpected pain. If you want pain it isn’t truly painful to you then.

[Anonymous No.22101746]

>>22099956
I think you're assuming anyone who appears miserable is not in fact miserable, which they probably are 99% of the time

[Anonymous No.22101884]

>>22101554
look at this retard, self-inflicted pain is still perceived as pain since it's the primary presupposition behind inflicting pain.
it's not negated due to it being perversely voluntary, it's asserted.
>inb4 a delusive sperg of B-BUT a degenerate's re-recontextualized misery = gratifying, how doesn't BAD method also inherit GOODY context?

[Anonymous No.22101979]

>>22101884
Please, watch the Moral Orel episode where he gets into BDSM and the father is angry because he can’t punish him by beating him with a belt anymore because now he likes it. It’s the same idea.

[Anonymous No.22102011]

>>22101884
This is actually a great demonstration of Socrates’ point in Meno and in the Crito.

https://moralorel.fandom.com/wiki/Pleasure