/lit/ reads the divine comedy

[Anonymous No.22091212]

The pace is one canto a day. Read the canto, then come to the thread to discuss it tomorrow. Let me know if you're interested. I am participating myself

This is a discord for /lit/ poetry we might use in tangent. I will develop it if enough people are interested, otherwise I will ditch it
https://discord.gg/2UvwjZyvBx

[Anonymous No.22091242]

>>22091212
don't you think one canto a day just a biiiiit too slow? realistically it takes what, 5 minutes at most to read one canto.
even if you account for looking up references it still is a very slow pace.

[Anonymous No.22091246]

>>22091212
Bought an expensive translation of Dante in my native language. I have no idea if it's shit or not. It'll be fun reading it, at some point.
Fuck discord btw.

[Anonymous No.22091260]

>>22091242
No, I don’t, and here is why

One, /lit/ is excruciatingly short on attention span. This will realistically retain posters. A quicker pace won’t. You saw what happened to the Bible group? Bwa bwa bwa.

Two, and much much more importantly, the point of a group is discussion. If you want to just read the work anyone can on his own. But we want to talk about it, right? Well each canto thought short to read, is crammed full of conversational material. A lot of things you might even totally miss but someone points them out in the discussion. Dante has a lot going on. Without extensive notes and discussion on each canto, you will retain only a tiny fraction of his content

[Anonymous No.22091345]

>>22091246
>at some point

Tomorrow tomorrow and tomorrow

[Anonymous No.22091389]

>>22091345
>Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow,
>Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
>To the last syllable of recorded time;
>And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
>The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
>Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
>That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
>And then is heard no more. It is a tale
>Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
>Signifying nothing.

can we read shakespeare ? I'm not familiar with shakespeare. ESL of course

[Anonymous No.22091393]

>>22091389
what did he mean by "lighted fools"?

[Anonymous No.22091400]

>>22091345
I might give it a shot, but I still have a bunch of major books I've started that I haven't finished. I will need to get on top of that stuff too.

[Anonymous No.22091406]

>>22091389
Sure if the group is successful

[Anonymous No.22091439]

I’m in. When do we start? Also what’s the best translation for eng or spanish

[Anonymous No.22091492]

>>22091439
We start now. Tomorrow we talk about the first canto

I'm using the Hollander translation.

[Anonymous No.22091504]

>>22091492
which translation is the easiest to read and to understand?

[Anonymous No.22091511]

>>22091504
Hollander is pretty lucid and has a ton of notes to explain everything hard to understand

[Anonymous No.22091520]

>>22091511
thanks. I'm in

[Anonymous No.22091543]

I only have an old Cary translation I found in my dad’s book. Should Injust give up?

[Anonymous No.22091556]

>>22091543
Cary is more faithful than many later and more popular translators. If you want to compare just pirate one from z-lib until you buy another, a canto a day electronically isn’t hard. I personally don’t think using Cary will kill you

[Anonymous No.22091558]

>>22091511
what about "Norton Critical Edition"?

[Anonymous No.22091560]

>>22091543
just pirate it lul. it's not like milton is alive

[Anonymous No.22091570]

>>22091558
Haven’t read it but the Hollander’s notes are so copious they are literally more text than the actual poem, and the translation was given an official aware by the City of Florence for its fidelity, beauty and erudition.

[Anonymous No.22091576]

>>22091212
I'm in. Based thread. "Ou Dante Ou NADA"

[Anonymous No.22091592]

>>22091393
Idiots who are faded/stoned. It's just older slang.

No really "lighted" basically means "guided", it's a verb not an adjective. The "yesterdays" "lighted"/guided fools to their death.

Remember lines in poetry aren't necessarily semantic units of their own, poetry is still (usually) grammatically correct English (more or less).

[Anonymous No.22091602]

>>22091570
Award*

[Anonymous No.22091610]

>>22091592
thank you very much anon, much appreciated

[Anonymous No.22091812]

>>22091212
I won't read it until it rhymes in the translation, meaning I am learning italian. Old italian.

[Anonymous No.22091823]

>>22091812
Dorothy Sayers did a rhyming translation

[Anonymous No.22091855]

https://100daysofdante.com/

https://digitaldante.columbia.edu/dante/divine-comedy/inferno/inferno-1/

You can get info here and read it here.

Let’s get it anons

[Anonymous No.22091866]

>>22091855
Much obliged

[Anonymous No.22091923]

>>22091823
Thanks brüder.

[Anonymous No.22092296]

Epubs of the Hollander translation have been uploaded to the resources channel for anyone interested.

[Anonymous No.22092324]

>>22091504
>>22091511
>>22091558

I don't speak italian, but i've read from a few different translations and read some comparative studies of the different translations:

John Ciardi's translation is pretty great, preserves the metre and some of the rhyme scheme (each stanza rhymes ABA, but theres no link between the stanzas)
Dorothy Sayers translation preserves the rhyme scheme perfectly (ABA BCB CDC DED EFE...) but in order to do this, she has touse language thats a lot more fancy and difficult than dante used in the original italian, since in italian 90% of words end in a vowel, which makes it easier to keep terza rima going for ages. For example, she describes the path to hell as the path nocturnal to the gate wrought by wisdom supernal, or something like this.

Better to read translations by poets than academics IMO. You might need to go to a library to find physical copies of these.

on a related note, i've been reading guido cavalcanti lately... does anyone else think this guy is incredibly based? one of his poems is a spell to drive dante's lust-demon away; he always describes swains as "servant" of some lady. amazing poet.

[Anonymous No.22092503]

>>22091260
> One, /lit/ is excruciatingly short on attention span. This will realistically retain posters. A quicker pace won’t.
You’re not concerned enough about attention span across time. One Canto a day will take over three months. You gonna hold someone’s attention for that long?

[Anonymous No.22092508]

>>22091212
This meme is funny, but Dante was far from a Chad in the divine comedy. He’s constantly fainting and crying.

[Anonymous No.22092518]

>>22092503
The poem is dense enough that each canto is a poem of itself

>>22092508
Yeah I know lol. The poem is actually about him developing and overcoming his own flaws and cowardice

[Anonymous No.22092588]

>>22092503
you don't know me nigga, I can read a book for 5 years and still not finish it

[Anonymous No.22092592]

>>22092518
>paradise lost >> devine comedy
is this true?

[Anonymous No.22092609]

>>22092592
Has any literary critic seriously contended that? I don’t think so. The amount of scholarship devoted to Divine Comedy dwarfs Paradise Lost, pretty much only Shakespeare compares in terms of academic interest

[Anonymous No.22092630]

>>22091393
Like you light up a path in the dark, and the way you make a burden lighter. English is cool I don't even care it's mongrel af.

[Anonymous No.22092761]

>1 canto a day
>100 cantos
anon...

[Anonymous No.22092802]

>>22092761
https://100daysofdante.com/

[Anonymous No.22092822]

>>22092630
>English is cool
yes and thanks for the explanation, I really appreciate it. I will be joining this reading of dante as a esl anon, if the reading goes as planned and is consistent with its schedule then I will be asking a lot of questions throughout the reading, I hope I won't be a bother to anyone of you.

[Anonymous No.22092832]

>>22092761
A /lit/ group trying to go fast will wear away almost everyone from attrition. I have tried to start over a dozen groups and the pace is always too fast for people

[Anonymous No.22092835]

>>22092761
Quality not quantity. Charles Swann said there are probably five books really worth reading in a lifetime. As an example, he gave Pensees but we could easily add Divine Comedy to the list. Reading at a slow pace allows you to savor the noble elements of literature.

[Anonymous No.22092993]

can i get an ISBN? i have no fucking clue which one should i be reading

[Anonymous No.22093022]

>>22092993
There was no ISBN back then

[Anonymous No.22093028]

>>22092993
https://libgen (dot) is/fiction/CB97237941539B5891507294F98048D9

[Anonymous No.22093033]

>>22093022
kek

[Anonymous No.22093235]

>>22091389
I'd be interested in reading Shakespeare. School ruined it for me and now I have no idea how to actually start with him. School made it feel like a chore.

[Anonymous No.22093249]

>>22093235
If you know nothing, start by listening to this rendition of Julius Caesar
https://archive.org/details/JuliusCaesar2016

Then watch this rendition of Much Ado About Nothing
https://youtu.be/MLa6o_sMIsM

[Anonymous No.22093458]

>>22093028
appreciate it
libgen is an ass when it comes to search

[Anonymous No.22093939]

>>22093458
Use z-lib

[Anonymous No.22093948]

>>22091212
Does spanish or English have a better translation? And what's the best translation? I'm just starting to get back into reading and kinda regret putting barebones effort in my humanities courses. Would you guys recommend that I read other books or subjects to better understand the divine comedy? Like Virgil or history of Dante's time?

[Anonymous No.22093974]

>>22091439
>>22093948
Look at that. Somebody had the exact same question
Well if anyone happens to know english, spanish and italian and is familiar with translations, please let us know

[Anonymous No.22093999]

>>22093948
I’m reading two versions rn, Mark Musa and Hollanders.
Musa gives background on Dantes life right away, whereas Hollander exposes Dante around the time he was writing Divine Comedy (40s).
They have notes so you don’t need to read Virgil.

I also want to know if Spanish, French, or Italian versions are superior to the English versions.

[Anonymous No.22094046]

>>22093948
>>22093974
>>22093999
>>22093948
>>22093974
>>22093999

English and Spanish speaking anon here, I went with Spanish since Spanish is closer to Italian and also Spanish translations actually try to rhyme, or at least mine did (translation by Echeverría).

That said, definitely DON'T start with the comedy as one of your firsts, it will be a painful experience. Dive into other epic poems first, starting at least with Homer's Iliad and Odyssey, Virgil's Aeneid and Ovid's Metamorphoses, all of which Dante endlessly references. Also a decent knowledge of the Bible will help a lot.
The translation I'm reading has footnotes for literally everything, so no need to read on Italian history and politics, but while you can also skip reading Homer or Virgil and rely on footnotes, their works are fantastic and you'll gain so much more from reading them beforehand.

[Anonymous No.22094139]

>>22094046
Thanks, so you'd recommend that spanish translation over English ones? Would you say Spanish is also better for Virgil? What about Greek works. I imagine it would be too different at that point to make a difference

[Anonymous No.22094210]

>>22094046
>it will be a painful experience.
Not necessarily.
The Divine Comedy was the first high-brow book I read after lurking /lit/ for a while. Such was my level of ignorance I didn't know who Homer or Virgil was, and even though I speak a romance language natively I read it first in English.
Even then it was a joyful experience and it only motivated me to read more.
>I went with Spanish since Spanish is closer to Italian and also Spanish translations actually try to rhyme
Yes, anyone who speaks a romance language natively should go with an edition translated to that language. I speak portuguese and in one of the translations I read the translator puts great efforts into maintaining the original rhyme and pronunciation, going as far as modifying some portuguese words in order to do so - always with footnotes, of course.

>>22094139
>Would you say Spanish is also better for Virgil?
Yes.
>I imagine it would be too different at that point to make a difference
Yes. Plus, at least in portuguese (in Brazil, specifically), many translations of distant languages - ancient greek, arabic, hebrew, russian - are translations of translations i.e. the guy translates a french edition of Plato's Republic to portuguese, which is disgusting. Either that or the translation is straight up plagiarism, also disgusting.
For those reasons, for every work that was not written originally in a romance language I don't even bother, I'd much rather read an edition in English with a reputable translator that worked from the original language.

[Anonymous No.22094274]

>>22094210
Great insights, thanks.
I’ll read it in Eng and Spa

[Anonymous No.22094658]

>>22091212
following. have we discussed already chapter 1?

[Anonymous No.22095141]

>>22094658
Is OP going to make a thread for it? Or are we discussing first canto on this thread?

[Anonymous No.22095216]

>>22095141
ITT: one canto a day would mean a new thread each day if we did that

I intend to post my thoughts tonight. I have a lot

[Anonymous No.22095222]

wake me up when you make the dantes inferno annotated edition

[Anonymous No.22095234]

>>22094046
>That said, definitely DON'T start with the comedy as one of your firsts
I will

[Anonymous No.22095264]

>>22095234
I’m telling mom

[Anonymous No.22095293]

>>22095264
idc, tell your dad too

[Anonymous No.22095437]

>>22094046
“Virgil is the guide in Dante’s poem because he served in that role in Dante’s life. It was Virgil’s Aeneid and not the works of Aristotle or of Aquinas which served as model for the poem; it was Virgil who, more than any other author, helped to make Dante Dante.”

Excerpt From
The Inferno
Dante


You prob don’t need to read Homer, Ovid, but it might be good to sparknotes on Virgil’s Aeneid

[Anonymous No.22095460]

Okay, my thoughts as OP: The poem opens with Dante awakening with the path lost (the word used for “lost” also means confused or befuddled, so we get the impression of someone who is “lost” how we feel when we might wake up and forget where we are—calling all Proust fans). Dante is midway in the journey of our life at 35: a midlife crisis, or also like a crisis many millennials feel today. The idea many feel, failures, “What are you doing with your life?” Is often about material of worldly accomplishments lacking. But for Dante it is something very different: he already a poet held in very high regard in his time, he is an accomplished man of letters. For him the crisis is spiritual: he is a spiritual failure. What is he doing with life *spiritually*? Quite a different worldview from the materialist one we’re familiar with. The dark woods are spiritual darkness.

Dante describes his inner fear, his sense of slipping, his angst. And this is brought to a vivid illustration in the form of the three animals which are generally taken to represent the three major moral failings which Dante struggles with, which are the verge of totally overcoming him.

In steps Virgil. The poet. Just as Aristotle was *the* philosopher, Virgil is presented, by Dante as the poet. Virgil’s poetry, I think, like Dante’s, is unique in how much it references contemporary events. While Homer relies mostly on mythological allusions, Virgil uses them (of course) but the meat and potatoes of his allusions are Roman history, politics and current events. This Dante aims to be the heir to as much as anything else, and immediately Virgil and Dante are shown as sharing a connection in terms of Italy’s past and future being a topic of deep importance to them. Just as Dante cares about the history of the Roman Empire, Virgil shows a concern for the future of Dante’s Italy.

In order to escape hell, the passage which no man returns from, Virgil tells Dante he must go into it. Similar to Nietzsche saying to go over you must go under. Dante’s character failings must be ironed out by trial by fire and instruction (which itself is in a way a parallel to the nature of how Purgatory works in the poem).

[Anonymous No.22095726]

>>22095460

Yes he awakens through the middle of “our” lives journey. It reminds me a lot of the song Once in a Lifetime by the Talking Heads, “how did I get here?” In life, most of us will or have asked ourselves that question, whether it is after a binge of drugs, alcohol and hookers, or time passing by and realising that it might be to late. Whatever it is this question more often than not, makes us suffer.

Yes, Dante is in a spiritual journey, we get that from the title and the subtitle. Divine Comedy: Inferno. This only makes me think of the darkness that Dante is experiencing is the darkness of doubt. This is my first time reading through the Divine Comedy, maybe some anons can enlighten me as to whether this has some merit.
The fact that he meets Virgil, also points to this doubt, this crisis of faith that Dante is experiencing. Virgil is not a Christian and he says so right away
“I was born sub Julio, though late in his time,
and lived at Rome, under good Augustus
in an age of false and lying gods”
Dante goes on to tell Virgil that he got everything(literary wise) from him. Makes me think if Dante thinks his own god will become a false lying god.

Thanks OP, this is a good read and a good thread.

[Anonymous No.22095758]

>>22095726
Some things you might find noteworthy: Dante did not title is the Divine Comedy but simply the Comedy, Divine being added after his death. Dante’s masterpiece is unusual in that the author predicts it will be an immortal classic even long before it is finished and it becomes one before it is, being immediately exalted with the first volume. Virgil’s work was just as anticipated but he didn’t have expectations of immortality from it (he indeed asked if be destroyed in his will, since it was unfinished and he wasn’t even done editing what he wrote; Augustus ordered it be published though with an editors tampering). Ovid does within his epic poem, like Dante, predict it being immortal, and Ovid, like Dante, writes from exile. But there is a key difference: Ovid boats in his work that the poem will be immortal *in spite* of the wrath of Jove, whereas Dante comes from a standpoint of piety toward Jove. Dante identifies Jove so closely with the Christian God that not only does the poem feature those condemned for blasphemy to Jove, but even has Dante praying to Jove a one point with a clear identification with the Christian God—centuries later, Joseph de Maistre would go even further and identify Jove among three classical densities he regards as motifs of the Trinity.

Which brings us to our next point: despite Virgil emphasizing his time of birth causing him to be excluded from salvation, Dante does not always exclude pagans from salvation: in Purgatory (where nearly all Christians must go who are saved in Dante’s poem—only the canonized saints and their ilk are exempt) we find Cato is saved and accorded tremendous spiritual prominence despite being a pagan who committed suicide. This goes further than even Statius, another pagan present in Purgatory, since Statius converted to Christianity in secret (according to Dante’s poem though he has no historical basis for believing this).

[Anonymous No.22096007]

If we finish this group successfully, do you guys want to do “/lit/ reads the complete works of Shakespeare” for our next group?

[Anonymous No.22096201]

>>22096007
yes yes yes please yes, I haven't read anything from shakespeare except his plays (video format)

[Anonymous No.22096212]

Always wanted to read this, but I dislike poetry. Reading it with fellow faggots might make it more bearable. How far along are you?

[Anonymous No.22096214]

>>22096212
first canto

[Anonymous No.22096226]

Midway in the journey of our life
I came to myself in a dark wood,
for the straight way was lost.
Ah, how hard it is to tell
the nature of that wood, savage, dense and harsh—
the very thought of it renews my fear!
It is so bitter death is hardly more so.
But to set forth the good I found
I will recount the other things I saw.
How I came there I cannot really tell,
I was so full of sleep
when I forsook the one true way.
But when I reached the foot of a hill,
there where the valley ended
that had pierced my heart with fear,
looking up, I saw its shoulders
arrayed in the first light of the planet
that leads men straight, no matter what their road.
Then the fear that had endured
in the lake of my heart, all the night
I spent in such distress, was calmed.
And as one who, with laboring breath,
has escaped from the deep to the shore
turns and looks back at the perilous waters,
so my mind, still in flight,
turned back to look once more upon the pass
no mortal being ever left alive.
After I rested my wearied flesh a while,
I took my way again along the desert slope,
my firm foot always lower than the other.
But now, near the beginning of the steep,
a leopard light and swift
and covered with a spotted pelt
refused to back away from me
but so impeded, barred the way,
that many times I turned to go back down.
It was the hour of morning,
when the sun mounts with those stars
that shone with it when God’s own love
first set in motion those fair things,
so that, despite that beast with gaudy fur,
I still could hope for good, encouraged
by the hour of the day and the sweet season,
only to be struck by fear
when I beheld a lion in my way.
He seemed about to pounce—
his head held high and furious with hunger—
so that the air appeared to tremble at him.
And then a she-wolf who, all hide and bones,
seemed charged with all the appetites
that have made many live in wretchedness
so weighed my spirits down with terror,
which welled up at the sight of her,
that I lost hope of making the ascent.
And like one who rejoices in his gains
but when the time comes and he loses,
turns all his thought to sadness and lament,
such did the restless beast make me—
coming against me, step by step,
it drove me down to where the sun is silent.
While I was fleeing to a lower place,
before my eyes a figure showed,
faint, in the wide silence.
When I saw him in that vast desert,
‘Have mercy on me, whatever you are,’
I cried, ‘whether shade or living man!’
He answered: ’Not a man, though once I was.
My parents were from Lombardy—
Mantua was their homeland.
‘I was born sub Julio, though late in his time,
and lived at Rome, under good Augustus
in an age of false and lying gods.
‘I was a poet and I sang
the just son of Anchises come from Troy
after proud Ilium was put to flame.
‘But you, why are you turning back to misery?

[Anonymous No.22096229]

Why do you not climb the peak that gives delight,
origin and cause of every joy?’
‘Are you then Virgil, the fountainhead
that pours so full a stream of speech?’
I answered him, my head bent low in shame.
‘O glory and light of all other poets,
let my long study and great love avail
that made me delve so deep into your volume.
‘You are my teacher and my author.
You are the one from whom alone I took
the noble style that has brought me honor.
‘See the beast that forced me to turn back.
Save me from her, famous sage—
she makes my veins and pulses tremble.’
‘It is another path that you must follow,’
he answered, when he saw me weeping,
‘if you would flee this wild and savage place.
‘For the beast that moves you to cry out
lets no man pass her way,
but so besets him that she slays him.
‘Her nature is so vicious and malign
her greedy appetite is never sated—
after she feeds she is hungrier than ever.
‘Many are the creatures that she mates with,
and there will yet be more, until the hound
shall come who’ll make her die in pain.
‘He shall not feed on lands or lucre
but on wisdom, love, and power.
Between felt and felt shall be his birth.
‘He shall be the salvation of low-lying Italy,
for which maiden Camilla, Euryalus,
Turnus, and Nisus died of their wounds.
‘He shall hunt the beast through every town
till he has sent her back to Hell
whence primal envy set her loose.
‘Therefore, for your sake, I think it wise
you follow me: I will be your guide,
leading you, from here, through an eternal place
‘where you shall hear despairing cries
and see those ancient souls in pain
as they bewail their second death.
‘Then you shall see the ones who are content
to burn because they hope to come,
whenever it may be, among the blessed.
‘Should you desire to ascend to these,
you’ll find a soul more fit to lead than I:
I’ll leave you in her care when I depart.
‘For the Emperor who has His seat on high
wills not, because I was a rebel to His law,
that I should make my way into His city.
‘In every part He reigns and there He rules.
There is His city and His lofty seat.
Happy the one whom He elects to be there!’
And I answered: ‘Poet, I entreat you
by the God you did not know,
so that I may escape this harm and worse,
‘lead me to the realms you’ve just described
that I may see Saint Peter’s gate
and those you tell me are so sorrowful.’
Then he set out and I came on behind him.

[Anonymous No.22096348]

>>22096226
>>22096229
Thank you, saved me a Libgen dowload. Though I’m interested in
>>22092324
These translations as well since they keep the rhyme form. Since we only really read one stanza at the time, can we compare translation?

[Anonymous No.22096487]

>>22095460
This is embarrassing, you are trying way too fucking hard

[Anonymous No.22096554]

>>22096226
>in the lake of my heart,
>And as one who, with laboring breath, / has escaped from the deep to the shore / turns and looks back at the perilous waters,

holy mother of kino
also we need gustave dore pics
and the line numbers

[Anonymous No.22096562]

>>22096487
exactly
https://youtu.be/eOBV7DS65S8

[Anonymous No.22096568]

>>22096554
>and the line numbers
sorry. I'll add them next time

[Anonymous No.22096588]

I can't understand it bros, help me :(
I'm watching this to understand it
https://youtu.be/pqq95jtnpfg

[Anonymous No.22096606]

>>22091212
Are there any online versions that have the original text next to the translation? I know enough about romance languages to sort of figure my way out of the original with a faithful TL on the side for reference.

[Anonymous No.22096622]

>>22096606
> >>22093028

[Anonymous No.22096625]

>>22096606
Actually never mind. That was easy to find.
https://digitaldante.columbia.edu/dante/divine-comedy/ for anyone else interested.
>>22096622
I didn't know the Hollander version had the original in it, too. I know about how painstakingly annotated it is.

[Anonymous No.22096744]

>>22096487
I enjoyed reading it. Get a life.

[Anonymous No.22096770]

>>22096744
Then perhaps you’re pretentious

[Anonymous No.22096778]

>>22096770
Why would you come to a thread on a book of this magnitude and cry that the OP lists thoughts which are more than just a few musings? Did you expect “mmmm yup that was a good canto today.”

[Anonymous No.22096796]

There is a whole, recorded Yale course with the lectures in YouTube about Dante in Translation. Very in-depth, I recommend watching it as you progress in reading.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=679FGDpZBew&list=PLD1450DFDA859F694

[Anonymous No.22096899]

>>22096796
very helpful, thanks