/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.22071995]

Western culture is depraved and narcissistic.
Dostoevsky knew.

[Anonymous No.22072008]

Once it's been proved to you that you're descended from an ape, it's no use pulling a face; just accept it. Once they've proved to you that a single droplet of your own fat must be dearer to you than a hundred thousand of your fellow human beings and consequently that all so-called virtues and duties are nothing but ravings and prejudices, then accept that too, because there's nothing to be done.

[Anonymous No.22072272]

I actually think that Dosto was more concerned about what happen when we don’t accept that and repent rather than decrying it as such.
Most of Dosto’s characters sin in many ways, and he himself was no saint.
But the problem as he saw it with the egoistic nihilism of his day and the growing faith in the seemingly-limitless repertoire of science to fix human problems as compared to every century before him, was that we would circumvent the need for belief and ruin our chances at redemption.
Killing and being repentant is one thing, killing and having a lobotomy is another.
It is this sense of self and our guilt that is fundamental to Christianity.

[Anonymous No.22072319]

>>22071995
>Russia
>western

[Anonymous No.22072326]

>>22072319
This is a photo of Dostoevsky in New York chud.

[Anonymous No.22072330]

>>22072272
>I actually think that Dosto was more concerned about what happen when we don’t accept that and repent rather than decrying it as such.
Good eye. At the same time though, the atheism and half-educated psuedoscience of the Western world would depress him as England and France did back in his time.

[Anonymous No.22072346]

"Western culture" is the only culture that makes life somewhat interesting. Traditional societies are essentially small villages composed of "simple folk" that lead an insipid life around farming and cultivating the lands. Everything culturally interesting always came from big cities that transformed into financial centers, from Athens to the Italian cities in the Renaissance to modern industrialized societies. There is a reason Europeans and third worlders in this website prefer to immerse themselves in the American culture through the internet rather than focusing on their local communities. Small community culture is empty and spiritually deadening.

[Anonymous No.22072355]

>>22071995
Are you ready for the real esoteric truthpill? Western and Eastern culture are at their cores identical - it is just the methods that differ. The Russians are the "Godbearing people" - the greatest man is he whose inner saint is closest to heaven. But the same applies for the West. "Individualism" is just a supremely degenerated form of the aristocratic-heroic vocation that was once upon a time the defining feature of Western man.
Western man used to look at God coldly but respectfully, from a great distance. Eastern man used to look at God from close up and at his best he actually looked for God inwards, but her looked at him with humility.
Now, both Western man and Russian man have lost their ways, lost in a forgetful stupor ignorant of their inner radiance, their spiritual heritage.
The golden crown has been trampled in the dirt by crazed masses chasing blood and copper coins.

[Anonymous No.22072356]

>>22072346
>Traditional societies are essentially small villages composed of "simple folk" that lead an insipid life around farming and cultivating the lands.
SOVL. "From hamlets come heroes." - Socrates

[Anonymous No.22072361]

>>22071995
what booze is that?

[Anonymous No.22072372]

>>22072361
looks like 777 fortified wine

[Anonymous No.22072389]

>>22072372
>fortified wine
interesting, i'll try it if i ever drink again

[Anonymous No.22072575]

>>22072272
>Killing and being repentant is one thing, killing and having a lobotomy is another.
Well put

[Anonymous No.22072586]

>>22071995
Why is Dostoevsky visiting St. Petersburg in that pic?

[Anonymous No.22072593]

>>22071995
Dosto was a literal schizo

[Anonymous No.22072732]

>>22072593
sounds based and romantic

[Anonymous No.22072827]

>>22072732
>If I was shown to be delusional, I would stick with the delusion
This is cowardly and childish. If that's what's based and romantic to you, you have issues.

[Anonymous No.22072838]

>>22072827
Christ hasn't been shown to be a delusion, so it's a moot point

[Anonymous No.22072839]

>>22071995
>le west has fallen!!!

[Anonymous No.22072845]

>>22072827
>If I was shown to be delusional, I would stick with the delusion
Also, it's not cowardly and childish, it's quixotic. You could even say it's extremely brave.

[Anonymous No.22072878]

>>22072593
That shows conviction and faith

[Anonymous No.22072880]

>>22072845
>Hiding from reality is brave
I guess if you choose delusion, you can just pretend whatever you want huh?

[Anonymous No.22072886]

>>22072880
Quixotic: Caught up in the romance of noble deeds and the pursuit of unreachable goals; idealistic without regard to practicality.

Yes.

[Anonymous No.22072891]

>>22072886
Okay Peter Pan

[Anonymous No.22072902]

>>22072891
Don Quixote =/ Peter Pan

Have you even read Don Quixote

[Anonymous No.22072904]

>>22072355
I’d wager this is a consequence of the different mindsets of Eastern vs Western Christianity

[Anonymous No.22072921]

>>22072902
I purposely recast it to call you childish. I now wonder if you are also autistic.

[Anonymous No.22072927]

>>22072921
So you have not read Don Quixote.

[Anonymous No.22072950]

>>22072927
I have. That book is meant to be a bit of silliness and is self aware enough that it literally pokes fun at itself because Don gets the way he does by reading too many fantastical novels. I am now convinced you are autistic though.

[Anonymous No.22072960]

Christianity has only ever been a superficial gloss over the pagan heart of Europe which is now reasserting itself. Contrary to popular opinion we are actually witnessing the return to tradition in real time.

[Anonymous No.22072975]

>>22072950
Your fundamental critique is wrong. Don Quixote is not Peter Pan. A romantic is different than a child who does not physically grow up. So your idea never made any sense to begin with.

[Anonymous No.22072978]

>>22072960
Okay Thor

[Anonymous No.22072990]

>>22072975
Give us your analysis of Don Quixote

[Anonymous No.22073000]

>>22072975
I was purposely shifting to Peter Pan to insult you. I see this was too subtle for your autistic ass to comprehend.

[Anonymous No.22073001]

>>22072990
>Don Quixote is not Peter Pan. A romantic is different than a child who does not physically grow up.

[Anonymous No.22073005]

>>22072880
People have freedom of religion in most first world countries jackass

[Anonymous No.22073006]

>>22073000
Insults that don't make sense are the best, no?

[Anonymous No.22073012]

>>22073001
Then what is Don Quixote?

[Anonymous No.22073015]

>>22073005
Yes, and I have the freedom to call them delusional
>>22073006
You have quite the defense against insults then, since you can't understand anything

[Anonymous No.22073033]

>>22073015
Wow, burn!

[Anonymous No.22073035]

>>22073015
Are you perhaps a professional psychologist or neurologist capable of diagnosing someone as delusional?

[Anonymous No.22073050]

>>22073035
He's a professional gentlesir.

The religious are simply... delusional.

[Anonymous No.22073066]

>>22073050
It's over, I have depicted you as the onions wojak

[Anonymous No.22073105]

>>22073066
Tips fedora, to another fine gentleman...
>Verification not required.

[Anonymous No.22073124]

>>22073105
>verification not required
why do you say this after every post? genuine question. is it a badge of pride thing? sometimes the captcha says that I don't have to verify but I don't really know what that means

[Anonymous No.22073133]

>>22073124
Some people ask why.... But I ask Wynaut?

[Anonymous No.22073138]

>>22073133
funny. no but seriously why, I want to know

[Anonymous No.22073277]

>>22072346
This post tastes like goldfish crackers

[Anonymous No.22073290]

>>22072346
An elaborate troll, well done

[Anonymous No.22073307]

>>22073290
Of course I was joking. Living a quiet life in a farm feeding pigs with your 11 children is actually faustian and Caesar-pilled.

[Anonymous No.22073317]

>>22073307
Cincinnatus > Caesar

[Anonymous No.22073321]

>>22073307
>manual labour develops your sons into fine soldiers and leaders
>your daughters are kept far away from urbanites and degenerates to embrace their maternal calling
Pretty kino life

[Anonymous No.22073323]

>>22073321

[Anonymous No.22073324]

>>22071995
The only thing Dostoevsky knew how to do was inhale black cock like a Bama cheerleader

[Anonymous No.22073331]

>>22072845
Quixotism and and unyielding optimism is something I've been trying to hone for some time now. Given the information age we're now flying through, it's difficult to learn of cumulative atrocities man is responsible for and still believe there is a God.

Nevertheless, I have to remind myself that clinging to Christ all the more will be what saves me: and like Dostoevsky says, even if He is a delusion, He is one that is worth believing in as opposed to succumbing to the ugly realities we are surrounded with. If this life truly amounts to nothing on the objective level, I should prefer the light of my Christ to the unfiltered darkness around me, even if that light may turn out in the end to be a phantasm.

[Anonymous No.22073332]

>>22073324
Well, considering the fact that you like to think about black guy dick and use them to critique world literature, you are almost assuredly a closet homosexual. So, I would end by saying Dostoevsky is not for you.

[Anonymous No.22073348]

>>22073331
Great post friend, especially the second paragraph.
Enjoy this letter from Dostoevsky about his liking of Quixote. Also check out Kierkegaard and Works of Love if you haven't already.

[Anonymous No.22073354]

>>22071995
Did I read Dostoevsky wrong if I never got much of an impression that hated Western culture? He artistically explored the contradictions of modern life. He didn't really condemn it as much compared to someone like Tolstoy who vehemently criticized secular society

[Anonymous No.22073358]

>>22073348
Much love brother. Thank you for sharing; I've read Fear and Trembling, and I own and plan to read The Sickness Unto Death soon too. I'll have to find Works of Love to read as well. My exchange is this amateurish Dostoevsky I drew a couple weeks ago.

[Anonymous No.22073364]

>>22073348
If I'm reading this right also, it seems Dostoevsky is writing this in the context of him trying to write The Idiot, which I find endearing to see him struggle to do so, yet knowing what he would eventually create.

[Anonymous No.22073376]

>>22073354
I think what he mainly despised was the use of science in promoting atheism/nihilism, which was a global phenomenon at the time. He also saw an increasing tendency of narcissism, which obviously is still current today.

[Anonymous No.22073386]

>>22073358
>>22073364
You're welcome, and you're right on the money. It was his journal right before Idiot.

[Anonymous No.22073628]

>>22073331
If there is such a thing as "being too online", your post is a prime example. Why do you view reality as "ugly"? Why dwell on horrors you can do nothing to avert? I am tempted to give the pithy admonition that you should "touch grass", but seriously, find somewhere in nature that is green and walk among the trees and flowers and quit being such an emo edgy boy. One hour in the sun surrounded by greenery will be worth a thousand hours huddled in your dark corner clinging to the false hope of a wishful idol.

[Anonymous No.22073653]

>>22073628
I don’t give a damn about nature, why do you advise me to look for something contemplative in some forests or mountains, if I myself, although with great difficulty, can recreate this outside of myself and get something better. The real world is needed to create your own separate landmark of life

[Anonymous No.22073669]

>>22071995
>Western culture is depraved and narcissistic.

Because each of his books is sane.

In a book:

>Call a prostitute
>Room illuminated only by a candle
>The protagonist and the prostitute are absorbed to read the Bible

And this is Vladimir Nabokov saying this in his lesson on Russian literature.

[Anonymous No.22073675]

I slept with a 38 year old single mother I met on Match the other night. It was the most soulless, dead experience you could imagine. Two people just rutting out of boredom and desperation. God it was pathetic. And yet I'll find another and do it again soon.

You can't contrive faith or hope. I wish I were devout, I wish I could believe in SOMETHING. But I don't, and I know I won't and I won't lie to myself. I'd rather be a hopeless, lost degenerate than a sanctimonious delusionist. I have neither the intellect nor the patience for philsophy or 19th century Russian misanthropes. They can't help you anyway. I long for childhood.

[Anonymous No.22073682]

>>22073675
>t was the most soulless, dead experience you could imagine

>I have neither the intellect nor the patience

>I long for childhood.

ChatGPT does it better, you are useless.

[Anonymous No.22075089]

>>22073653
>I don’t give a damn about nature
And you wonder why you need the comfort of delusions?

[Anonymous No.22075107]

>>22073669
Guy must have been to so many damn hookers. He's obsessed about them.

[Anonymous No.22075109]

>>22072008
>Once it's been proved to you that you're descended from an ape

pretty sure zeus wasn't an ape, amigo

[Anonymous No.22075133]

>>22072008
This is such a tired philosophy. It must have seemed cool when guys like Cioran wrote this shit 'cause it involved a sort of grand letting-go, an acknowledgment of our worst impulses and selfishness. But we've had this kind of shit pumped into our brains from every imaginable media source or otherwise for the last fifty years at least. It's not insightful or helpful or even verifiable beyond "muh intuition." Believe it or not, there are people out there willing to sacrifice themselves. There are people capable of beholding the bigger picture and acting accordingly. Those who would convince you larger virtues are mere decadence are sick, and usually faggot communists or subversives. Believe in yourself and the capacity to be more than a monkey. Or don't and be a retarded waste of space.

[Anonymous No.22075142]

>>22075107
who fucked more in the their young years, tolstoy or dostoevsky?

[Anonymous No.22075161]

>>22075133
Based, we need more virtuous people now than ever before.

[Anonymous No.22075296]

>>22072346
This does not apply to modern technocratic dystopias, which are essentially rotting corpses of the intellectual output generated by the old European elite. After civilisations decay, power is always dissipated outward to the country, and I predict we will see this on a large scale in our lifetimes; study Spengler, study Late Rome.

[Anonymous No.22075374]

>>22073628
The anon who had been responding to you is not me (>>22073331). If you mean to tell me that life does not have unspeakable horrors then it's you who needs to get out and see them. I agree, focusing on the many blessings of light is the way to get beyond these things: but to disregard them and blow them off as being a result of being too online is to dismiss the concrete reality that life is, among other things both good and bad, suffering. For one thing, I don't think the victims of the Holocaust, the Holodomor, or Unit 731 could "touch grass" in their circumstances. I am not a gloomy person overall, but the human condition is also not lost on me.

[Anonymous No.22075478]

>>22072346
>insipid life around farming and cultivating the lands
The department of redundancy department.
Wonder if any of those farmers could write something better than this faggy paragraph.

[Anonymous No.22075698]

>>22072008
Apes are fucking based and I'm not going to let some underachieving edgelords talk shit them. Don't ever dare to mention them in your smoothbrain thought diarrhea ever again.

[Anonymous No.22075865]

>>22075133
Based, sick of people attacking virtue as slave morality to justify their vices

[Anonymous No.22076194]

>>22075296
This is romantic nonsense, modern technocratic societies are the peak of humanity so far. No wars, more individual freedom, better technology.

[Anonymous No.22076204]

>>22076194

[Anonymous No.22076212]

>>22076194
You sound like those people back when I was in university saying that a one world government is justified because there will no longer be countries fighting each other

[Anonymous No.22076293]

>>22072593
First of all, these are not his own words, these are the words of the character from his book Demons.
Second of all, the full quote includes the words "if someone were to mathematically proof me", implying that the "truth" in question is physical in nature, not metaphysical or theological.

I'm currently reading Demons and it was a shock to discover the real nature of this quote you basement dwelling atheists seem to love so much.

[Anonymous No.22076410]

>>22075374
Read Man's Search for Meaning. Even amidst the horrors of the worst of the holocaust, a stoic focus on the the spirit of "touching grass" is possible and meaningful. I explicitly acknowledged the horrors of human life and existence, and the fact this these things exist does also plague me, but such things have been deemed to exist by the very nature of reality, though I may wish it were otherwise. The best I can do is focus on my own life, diminish my contribution to the suffering of others to the extent I can and work to bring as much good as it is within my scope to bring, and to reside in the light of life and beauty and nature and bring myself in line with the truth as best I can. To do otherwise is to succumb to the very worst of human nature.

[Anonymous No.22076478]

>>22076410
>Man's Search for Meaning
This is what seculars read to dress up their atheism

[Anonymous No.22076487]

>>22076478
to be fair, Frankl is a lot better than drivel like Dawkins or Sam Harris

[Anonymous No.22076519]

That's really more Ibsen's thing

[Anonymous No.22076571]

>>22076519
Dostoevsky, Bernard Shaw, Joyce, and Ibsen. The greatest writers since 1880

[Anonymous No.22076574]

>>22076571
also, Chesterton and Tolstoy.

[Anonymous No.22076741]

>>22076410
I've read Man's Search for Meaning; I think it's a novel attempt at providing a more psychological approach to deriving a course for one's life. Frankl's "logotherapy" is indeed an interesting methodology by which one can make their own meaning, one I'm sure Dostoevsky would find admirable. But in the end, I think it just simply falls short of, again, that ideal of Christ that requires that leap of faith that I think is acutely needed.

>>22076487
By a wide, wide margin.

>>22076571
>>22076574
I would agree, and I would throw in Kafka too.

[Anonymous No.22076975]

>>22076741
>one can make their own meaning
Moderns do not realise the incoherence of this

[Anonymous No.22076984]

>>22073675
did she at least have a big butt and tiddies?

[Anonymous No.22077598]

>>22076478
>This is what seculars read to dress up their atheism
"Dress up"? You mean like interacting with reality without moping and whining like the perpetually self pitying theist?

[Anonymous No.22077600]

>>22076741
>that ideal of Christ that requires that leap of faith that I think is acutely needed.
Have you ever looked into Buddhism?

[Anonymous No.22077674]

>>22071995
>Western culture is depraved and narcissistic
so I'm not the only who thinks this
lgbt, liberal, nazi shit are narcissistic beyond belief, it might be fine if they're just content with themselves, but they need to force people to accept them, it's super annoying

[Anonymous No.22077766]

>>22077674
LGBT and liberalism are quite obviously narcissistic because they place so much importance on the individual and their experience. What is it about Nazism that you think is narcissistic?

[Anonymous No.22077919]

>>22077598
Please seek Christ

[Anonymous No.22077950]

>>22077598
Self-pity stems from pride - the aim is to overcome our pride and love as the Lord loves

[Anonymous No.22077962]

Dostoevsky knew nothing. I’ve never read an author who was so clearly dimwitted and wrong about everything he ever said.

[Anonymous No.22077979]

>>22077962
Provide an example

[Anonymous No.22077999]

>>22077979
What’s the famous line about God and his relation to morality again It’s probably the dumbest idea ever expressed in a fictional work.

[Anonymous No.22078096]

>>22077999
How do you ground morality?

[Anonymous No.22078374]

>>22072593
>Refutes every hegelian faggot

[Anonymous No.22078474]

>>22077600
No, and it would just seem anachronistic to me to begin practicing it anyways. For one thing I don't think passion and human emotions are ontologically detrimental, so from the outset I don't agree with the Four Noble Truths. Additionally I find the Christian tradition far more compelling than the Buddhist one.

Also I'm a white boy from the US, so any Asian Buddhist would look at my attempt to replicate their religion and laugh.

[Anonymous No.22078478]

>>22078474
Correction: I meant "no" as in I don't consider converting to Buddhism, but I indeed have studied it to an extent.

[Anonymous No.22078487]

>>22072008
I am an ape and find endless value in life

[Anonymous No.22079263]

>>22077919
Please seek enlightenment
>>22077950
Ah yes, and we wouldn't want to be prideful while claiming to have a direct relationship with the almighty creator of the universe who has a special interest in us personally. We're trying to be humble here!
>>22078474
>White
>From USA
>Chooses Christianity because it's "more compelling"
So are you willing to admit you're pursuing this strictly based on culture and upbringing? Why does it matter if Asian Buddhists laugh at your attempts, but if people laugh at your Christianity it doesn't seem to matter? Aren't you at all interested in the phenomenon that people usually choose the religious tradition of their own culture? And doesn't that seem like a somewhat arbitrary and unreliable way to choose a spiritual path?

[Anonymous No.22079296]

>>22079263
This life is too much trouble, far too strange, to arrive at the end of it and then to be asked what you make of it and have to answer “humanism, atheism, agnosticism, Marxism, behaviorism, materialism, Buddhism, Muhammadanism, Sufism, astrology, occultism, theosophy, scientific humanism.” That won’t do. A poor show.
Life is a mystery, love is a delight. Therefore I take it as axiomatic that one should settle for nothing less than the infinite mystery and the infinite delight, i.e., God. In fact I demand it. I refuse to settle for anything less. I don’t see why anyone should settle for less than Jacob, who actually grabbed aholt of God and would not let go until God identified himself and blessed him.

[Anonymous No.22079379]

>>22079263
You seemed to have neglected the operative word "additionally" that I used: I didn't say my reason for finding Christianity more compelling than Buddhism is because I'm a white American. I listed those as separate reasons.

[Anonymous No.22079385]

>>22079263
I also wasn't brought up Christian, it's just that, again, Christianity is the predominant religion of the country I live in, even if it's only nominally.

[Anonymous No.22079530]

>>22079296
I would phrase it in the exact reverse. Why would you settle for a series of ancient, primitive myths, when we now have more of a grasp of the actual mystery and depth of the universe. The idea of the deep mysteries of the universe just has a Wizard of Oz behind the curtain who is "God" is quite frankly insulting.
>>22079379
I was pointing out how it just so happens the religion you find "compelling" matches exactly to your ethnic and geographical location. Don't you find that at least slightly unsettling? Isn't it just a tiny bit too much of a coincidence that the religion that appeals to you most is the one you were steeped in culturally before really critically thinking about these things?

[Anonymous No.22079557]

>>22079530
>big bang
your beloved science disproves you, chud

[Anonymous No.22079580]

>>22079557
Was this supposed to be a "gotcha"? The big bang is one theory, but it says very little about the actual nature of the origin of the universe. Unlike religion, science does not hand down dictates of what unequivocally happened, it generates models of what is likely to have happened, and those models get refined as we collect more data. Nice try though.

[Anonymous No.22079672]

>>22079580
wasn't a try. it's over

[Anonymous No.22079687]

>>22072346
>There is a reason Europeans and third worlders in this website prefer to immerse themselves in the American culture through the internet rather than focusing on their local communities

Don't conflate the brown horde from asia and africa with the Western World

[Anonymous No.22080060]

>>22079263
>prideful
The very nature of the Incarnation, God taking on human flesh, means that He desires personal communion with each member of humanity. Taken properly, the Incarnation should create a deep sense of affection and reverence towards our Creator and not some puffed-up individualism. It should inspire us to see the image of God that was placed in each person at their conception and treat them as if we are giving hospitality to Him Who created us.
>the almighty creator of the universe who has a special interest in us personally
He does - He created us to be the crown and stewards of His creation and that remains the case notwithstanding the Fall of Adam and Eve. To say that because God created things that are of greater physical magnitude compared to ourselves and that we therefore do not matter, is a non-sequitur. God adores His creation and there is no greater act of love than Him seeking to redeem it lest it perish. But again, if we have this status, right action must occur in a way that reflects this inheritance. Exaltation in itself is not pride.

Ultimately, this discussion comes down to your anthropology. If in your eyes humanity has no inherent dignity, all manner of depravity will proceed from this. Dostoyevsky was making a far deeper point than you realise.
>>22079530
>just so happens the religion you find "compelling" matches exactly to your ethnic and geographical location
You have grown up in a secular post-Christian society and have adopted those views - the same can be said of you. However, the truth or falsity of what you say is not contingent upon that. If you seek to relativise people's beliefs then you should do the same to your own and give them some privileged epistemic status. Going further, you frankly shouldn't care what people believe given that it's all geographically contingent and epistemically empty - it's all the same falsity right?

[Anonymous No.22080127]

>>22080060
>You have grown up in a secular post-Christian society and have adopted those views - the same can be said of you.
Except that if I was born anywhere in the world, I would also not believe in Christianity. Atheism is the default position unless you've been convinced that a specific theism is correct, and it's awfully convenient that the main way people are convinced if by being brought up as a small child steeped in one specific theist tradition. That's the point I was making.

[Anonymous No.22080165]

>>22080127
I don't disagree that one's circumstances, for the vast majority of people, will shape their worldview for the whole lives. However, if there is Truth (the mere fact that we are having this conversation implies that we both believe this), it must exist independently of one's milieu. And whilst I disagree and don't believe the human to be a tabula rasa, granting the premise that atheism is the default state of the human, it does not follow then that this default state is true - especially if you're implying that it is true because it is the default state.

At any rate, I was not raised in a Christian household at all and where I am from is profoundly atheistic. I nevertheless became a Christian but I see that you acknowledge the possibility of this.

[Anonymous No.22080249]

>>22075142
Fedor did
tolstoj was a closeted gay and we all know about it

[Anonymous No.22080257]

>>22080127
>Atheism is the default position unless you've been convinced that a specific theism is correct

[Anonymous No.22080278]

>>22080127
It’s literally the opposite. Every human society in history has by default accepted some kind of religious system or metaphysical belief until very recently

[Anonymous No.22080318]

>>22079530
No, not really. If there is a true religion out there, then at least one culture has already assimilated it. Why couldn't it be mine, or one that is comparable to mine?

[Anonymous No.22080465]

>>22077766
>"hey there I'm white, anyway why don't you start worshipping me"

[Anonymous No.22080487]

>>22071995
Have fun dying in a ditch vatnik

[Anonymous No.22080500]

>>22077766
Dumb nazi retard

[Anonymous No.22080537]

>>22080249
nope he spent his youth with harems of barefoot peasant women

[Anonymous No.22080916]

>>22080165
The default state is to no believe a thing until you become convinced it is true. If you disagree, then a person would accept every proposition immediately on hearing it, and this would lead to conflicting beliefs and become instantly incoherent.

Again, I'd be interested in how you think Christianity constitutes the Truth. I don't think you can arrive there through dispassionate logic, I believe that one's emotions, or an appeal to utilitarianism, are the real causes of a person adopting a religion, and this fits with the fact that most people adopt the religion of their culture.

[Anonymous No.22080918]

>>22080278
You miss the point entirely. Human societies form religious systems because they have social utility, and each member buys in because of that. This simply proves people uncritically accept the religion of their group, but it also means they must, by definition, disbelieve the religions of every other group. That is my point.

[Anonymous No.22080920]

>>22080318
That's a gigantic "IF", because it's also possible that none of the proposed religions are true. In fact, since they all share very specific hallmarks, it seems overwhelmingly likely that they are all human creations, and thus do not map on to any objective truth.

[Anonymous No.22080931]

>>22080918
>because they have social utility, and each member buys in because of that
no offense, but I really think you might be autistic

[Anonymous No.22080952]

>>22080916
>The default state is to no believe a thing until you become convinced it is true
This is different to saying that man's fundamental state is being irreligious. Man has a natural inclination to religiosity - what that religiosity looks like is contingent upon, amongst other things, their milieu as you've pointed out. Also, you're implying that atheism is not theory-laden when it is - it assumes its own metaphysics and epistemology depending on what brand of atheism you adopt.
>Again, I'd be interested in how you think Christianity constitutes the Truth. I don't think you can arrive there through dispassionate logic
It's a movement of both the intellect and the heart. Pure intellect and you can convince yourself of anything. Pure emotion and you become mentally unstable. Both faculties work together and concurrently. In brief, I believe it to be true because of the historicity of the Death and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, the coherence of (Orthodox) Christian theology and anthropology compared to other religious traditions and events in my life that could not have been other than Divine intervention. I was an avowed atheist before this whole process, mind you. I know you will take issue with the personal experience point but so be it.

[Anonymous No.22080967]

>>22080931
There is a group enforcement mechanism. If your survival depends on those around you, you may not explicitly think to yourself "I better believe this nonsense too so I'll survive", but it certainly is a strong selection mechanism for the members of a group to all buy in to the same belief system. In fact, it's a feature that the most tight knit cults have the most insane beliefs, because it functions as a kind of sunk cost to profess a belief in the same outrageous thing as the rest of the members and thus it forges a stronger bond between the "true believers". This is the basis of taboos and rituals and culture itself. Do you actually have anything to say to this or just baseless insults?

[Anonymous No.22080973]

>>22072356
>t. never read Phaedrus

[Anonymous No.22080975]

>>22080952
>theory-laden when it is - it assumes its own metaphysics and epistemology depending on what brand of atheism you adopt.
Word salad signifying nothing, and you basically admit as much with the weasel tactic of saying "what brand of atheism" as if rejecting other people's asserted religions necessitates a positive system in it's place.
>Personal experience of divine intervention
I'm sure similar experiences have convinced other people of the truth of totally different religions. In short, the mechanisms you have put forth are unreliable because the exact manifestations lead people to totally different and mutually exclusive conclusions. But at least you accept there is issue to be taken with this, that is a progress of sort.

[Anonymous No.22080978]

>>22080967
You can say that with any form of belief. To dismiss religion as a "social group enforcement of unity" is extremely juvenile, shallow, and displays a sheer misunderstanding of other people's motives, especially in the modern world where atheism is common, and is a certain kind of reddit-tier naivetë. Sorry.

[Anonymous No.22081006]

>>22080975
>as if rejecting other people's asserted religions necessitates a positive system in it's place
If there's no positive system in place to assess other beliefs, on what grounds have you made that rejection in the first place? Also what I said was not "word salad" - there is no such thing as epistemic givens or theory-independent observations. All truth claims are made within a paradigm - Sellars makes this point.
>similar experiences have convinced other people of the truth of totally different religions
Don't fixate on this and ignore the rest of what was being said. My fundamental point was that the intellect and the heart move together. You're not saying anything new by arguing that fixating on experiences is stupid. Over-reliance on "experiences" leads one into grave delusion and this point is repeated continuously by the Church Fathers.

[Anonymous No.22081019]

>>22080978
>You can say that with any form of belief
Seems like a pretty persuasive reason to carefully examine the motivations behind your beliefs, huh?

[Anonymous No.22081028]

>>22081019
A certain Greek figure once emphasized it as "know yourself," ;)

[Anonymous No.22081037]

>>22081006
>If there's no positive system in place to assess other beliefs, on what grounds have you made that rejection in the first place?
It's logically incoherent to accept all positions. This means that to be logically coherent, you must not accept all positions. Therefore, you must begin at a point of not accepting all positions. Therefore, either you accept that the default position is to not accept a belief to begin with, or you embrace being irrational and logically incoherent. Have I made any error in this statement?
>Don't fixate on this and ignore the rest of what was being said.
That's the only thing you've said that I'm going to remember.
>My fundamental point was that the intellect and the heart move together.
The injunction "seek and ye shall find" is always a sinister one. All too often that is exactly what we do, once we have our heart set on a position, we seek out everything possible to confirm it and happily ignore anything that contradicts it. This is something to be wary of, not whole heartedly embrace

[Anonymous No.22081039]

>>22081028
To me, Socrates is much more compelling than Jesus

[Anonymous No.22081049]

>>22081039
"Saint Socrates, pray for us,"
- Erasmus

[Anonymous No.22081052]

>>22075698
Based. Our cousin species are wonderful creatures. I'm proud that my ancestors worked hard to put me where I am and I hope to continue the bloodline (if not by me than with my relatives) in their name. Looking at you great times a lot grandpa.

[Anonymous No.22081085]

>>22081037
>Have I made any error in this statement?
It sounds like you're articulating some type of Cartesian skepticism. It's an interesting thought but the question becomes "where do I go from here?". If you've radically doubted all things you obviously can't stay in that state forever. You must now move from non-knowledge to knowledge. How will you do this? Your "how" needs to be justified. Descartes said that his "how" resides in the intellect - he had utmost faith that pure reason can lead us to truth. Well of course, we must ask how do you know this? We will invariably fall into a vicious circularity.

Moreover, and perhaps relatedly, you're presupposing the coherence of logic itself here. You would be unable to makes this syllogism if you doubted the existence of logic itself. Therefore, you already have a priori commitments when engaging in this skepticism. I hope you see the point that I am making by saying no knowledge is theory-neutral. This is not a claim of relativism by the way. It's that we must acknowledge that there are some meta-level things happening in the background which need to be justified. Simply saying "logic is logic" to justify its use is circular. Kant recognised similar/related problems - hence his transcendental categories of the mind.
>we seek out everything possible to confirm it and happily ignore anything that contradicts it
I agree that confirmation bias is a grave problem but the issue cuts both ways. I know the following is anecdotal etc. but I thought I might share this on an anon-to-anon level - I've found that the human mind, guided by its "reason" alone can drive someone insane in more ways than one. We're very frail creatures. That's why I sometimes pray "God, enlighten my darkened heart."

I also appreciate that you have been engaging in good faith, for what it's worth.

[Anonymous No.22081101]

>>22073331
are those penguins flying

[Anonymous No.22081106]

>>22081085
>you're presupposing the coherence of logic itself here
Not in the slightest, I merely offered two options you could choose from, being logically coherent or being logically incoherent. I'd actually be more interested in hearing you advance the case that a person should dispense with logic, but my hopes may be dashed on that point.
>I've found that the human mind, guided by its "reason" alone can drive someone insane
I can only assume you are referring to your own personal experience since it seems unlikely you would make such a statement on the basis of observing another person. In which case, I'm sorry that you found this to be the case, but you must also realize that this probably has quite a lot to do with the individual in question.

[Anonymous No.22081117]

>>22081106
I admit that twice two makes four is an excellent thing, but, if we are to give everything its due, twice two makes five is sometimes a very charming thing, too.

[Anonymous No.22081129]

>>22081117
Charming? It's downright adorable!

[Anonymous No.22081143]

>>22081106
>but my hopes may be dashed on that point
Then I'll simply tell you to pray - there is no higher activity for man than that.

At any rate, life's a bit more interesting with belief in unseen things and the cosmic drama of good and evil that is unfolding before our eyes. We live in interesting times where things are undergoing a revelation of method as the evil in this world has become more emboldened to show its true colours. I'd rather learn about spiritual warfare than be someone who wants a citation for that.

[Anonymous No.22081151]

>>22072346
Rural boomers coping

[Anonymous No.22081176]

>>22080973
>t. never read Xenophon