/lit/ reads Homer's Iliad

[Anonymous No.22011193]

Greetings lads.

Tomorrow, May 10th, we read Book 1 of the Iliad. We'll then do a book a day until we are finished in early June (calendar below).

The official book-by-book discussion doesn't start until tomorrow, but if you're not scared you can reply for now with general thoughts/hopes/advice/etc.

[Anonymous No.22011194]

[Anonymous No.22011221]

I considered not participating because I didn't finish the other novels I'm reading before this started. But I should've read the Iliad by now, so I'm here. I also have this OCD thing where I feel like I can't read the Odyssey, Aeneid, and Metamorphoses until I read this, so it's better this way.

[Anonymous No.22011235]

Which edition and year

[Anonymous No.22011243]

>>22011235
Anon who broached the idea was reading Lattimore, I think most are, and a couple of us said Fitzgerald.

[Anonymous No.22011580]

>>22011193
Im about to finish les mis I havent read any greek should I join you guys?

[Anonymous No.22011594]

>>22011580
You should

[Anonymous No.22011603]

Im capable of reading this but im a totally unread idiot who knows nothing. If anyone can give the qrd on Helen and Paris I think ill be fine with that

[Anonymous No.22011606]

>>22011580
Homer is as good a place to start as any.

[Anonymous No.22011607]

I only have Fagles' Illiad. Will that do?

[Anonymous No.22011616]

>>22011594
>>22011606
I will join you tanks guys this is my first read together

[Anonymous No.22011633]

>>22011603
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judgement_of_Paris#Sources_of_the_episode
>It is recounted[5] that Zeus held a banquet in celebration of the marriage of Peleus and Thetis (parents of Achilles). However, Eris, goddess of discord, was not invited, for it was believed she would have made the party unpleasant for everyone. Angered by this snub, Eris arrived at the celebration with a golden apple from the Garden of the Hesperides, which she threw into the proceedings as a prize of beauty.[6]

>Three goddesses claimed the apple: Hera, Athena and Aphrodite. They asked Zeus to judge which of them was fairest, and eventually he, reluctant to favor any claim himself, declared that Paris, a Trojan mortal, would judge their cases, for he had recently shown his exemplary fairness in a contest

>With Hermes as their guide, the three candidates bathed in the spring of Ida, then met Paris on Mount Ida. While Paris inspected them, each attempted with her powers to bribe him; Hera offered to make him king of Europe and Asia, Athena offered wisdom and skill in war, and Aphrodite, who had the Charites and the Horai to enhance her charms with flowers and song (according to a fragment of the Cypria quoted by Athenagoras of Athens), offered the world's most beautiful woman (Euripides, Andromache, l.284, Helena l. 676).

>This was Helen of Sparta, wife of the Greek king Menelaus. Paris accepted Aphrodite's gift and awarded the apple to her, receiving Helen as well as the enmity of the Greeks and especially of Hera. The Greeks' expedition to retrieve Helen from Paris in Troy is the mythological basis of the Trojan War.

[Anonymous No.22011638]

I'm ready bros.

[Anonymous No.22011646]

>>22011607
imo any version is fine, the differences between them will add to the discussion

[Anonymous No.22011672]

>>22011646
What key events should I know before starting the illiad, as it starts in medias res?

[Anonymous No.22011677]

>>22011633
Many thanks

[Anonymous No.22011741]

>>22011672
Don't overthink it, I don't have complete knowledge either and there will always be details you miss especially on a first reading. You just have to roll with it.
The story begins with a dispute between Achilles and Agamemnon over the possession of women captured from Troy. So they are both on the same side. Agamemnon is the general of the combined Greek army (referred to as Achaeans in the narrative), which gives him rank over Achilles despite him being the greatest hero in the army and having divine blood.
One of those women is a priest of Apollo so this situation gets the gods involved, and things develop from there. Most of all of this is made clear from the narrative itself.
Agamemnon is the older brother of Meneleus, whose wife is Helen who Paris eloped with >>22011633.
Troy was located on the western coast of what is now Turkey btw.

[Anonymous No.22011743]

>>22011235
In the last thread participants were saying all different ones. Personally I’m going to do Fitzgerald. I think the use of multiple translations will actually make for more interesting discussion … we can compare and contrast.

>>22011221
Exactly the same. Let’s do this fren.

[Anonymous No.22011821]

>>22011741
Alright! Still seems very intimidating this book with all the names and context

[Anonymous No.22011860]

>>22011646
Be careful with that blanket assertion. Emily Wilson's translation is due soon.

[Anonymous No.22011866]

>>22011741
>Don't overthink it
Yeah, man. Besides, nothing is stopping anyone from reading it again. Too many people are way too uptight about this stuff.

[Anonymous No.22011874]

>>22011821
You'll be no worse off than any undergraduate student who read it to satisfy a course requirement, then forgot it the next semester.
You can look at it as entertainment too. Enjoy the language and the action. This is a story that gets memed as being like a Marvel movie because it has depictions of gods flying across the country like Superman or a DBZ character and casting magic spells. You'll be OK.

[Anonymous No.22011875]

>>22011860
Wilson's Odyssey translation was fine. The le feminist subversion narrative is greatly overblown.

[Anonymous No.22011880]

>>22011875
Bro, she fully outed herself when she appeared publicly at a forum demanding that the canon be abolished. She has no business touching the canon if she feels that way about it.

[Anonymous No.22011926]

Here's some links to the text.
Epub is meant for e-readers but you can read epubs on desktop using a free program called SumatraPDF, the formatting isn't perfect depending on the book, but it's fast.
If you want you can use Calibre to read epubs instead, it's also free and it displays them perfectly, but kind of slow and I just don't like to use it to read.
I don't know any better alternatives and I'm not familiar with mobile.

These three translations are the most popular and most universities use one of them, to my understanding.
>Fagles
https://libgen.is/fiction/51EF6F11B5E4DCD871BBAD84C886A323 (PDF)
https://libgen.is/fiction/63F220D4131D534BEE77BCB521FDC504 (epub)
>Fitzgerald
http://library.lol/main/8D38D38AAB497C632219BF3500AE113A
(PDF)
https://libgen.is/fiction/8A04AA1D8A5938EB8CB3DB2FE0BBD19B (epub)
>Lattimore
http://library.lol/main/4696840AD1DB79F9488393164F75DA85 (PDF)
https://libgen.is/fiction/2FD3183DDA33C6A4BF308EB39A7D8DE9 (epub)

If you feel like reading it in heroic couplets (rhymed), it will probably take a good deal more effort, but might be more fun depending on your mood and taste.
>Chapman (17th Century)
https://libgen.is/fiction/499806A62E784A276D5AAA919981D22A (epub)
>Pope (18th Century)
http://library.lol/main/521FB72938B0102439ABAFB88A18F4D6 (PDF)

[Anonymous No.22011939]

>>22011235
Homeric Greek in Boustrophedic Attic script or you're a pseud

[Anonymous No.22012021]

>>22011193

Homer wasn't a pidor faggot fuck you

[Anonymous No.22012821]

It's almost that time boys :)

[Anonymous No.22012828]

>>22011875
Her translation is terrible. If more people knew Greek, it never would've been published.

[Anonymous No.22012992]

>>22012821
Can’t wait to embark on this journey with you frens

[Anonymous No.22013048]

>>22012992
Today we are boys, tomorrow we will take our first step toward manhood

[Anonymous No.22013459]

>>22013048
Simmer down, Ajax.

[Anonymous No.22013808]

>>22011926
>the formatting isn't perfect depending on the book
Actually this is not true, I was basing it off how the Fitz epub looks in Sumatra but after I found the PDF I notice it looks the same. Love that program.

[Anonymous No.22013918]

[Anonymous No.22013925]

Note Juno is Hera.
While I'm at it, Iliad refers to Ilion, another name for Troy.

[Anonymous No.22014020]

damn, glad I caught this on time.
been meaning to re-read the iliad for a long time but couldn't bring myself to.
Although I'm in the middle of zarathustra and started 2666 yesterday I'll follow this with you retards

[Anonymous No.22014060]

I don't read but here are all books as pdf https://archive.org/download/the-iliad-homer-lattimore/The%20Iliad%20-%20Homer%20%5BLattimore%5D.pdf

[Anonymous No.22014109]

>>22011939
Good idea. The best way to learn a language is to translate it.

[Anonymous No.22014143]

How are you even on this board if you don't know the Illiad by heart?

[Anonymous No.22014171]

Thank you guys for this. I promised myself to read the classics this year and just bought the Illiad last week.

[Anonymous No.22014174]

>>22011193
I read it when I was 14, I read Socrates and Plato when I was 11-12 and I read gurjieff when I 9-10. If you are not a teen and it's your first time reading it, just kys already bc you are the definition of npc goy cattle.
Also
>Reading the Iliad in a Germanic language
Lol, Lmao even

[Anonymous No.22014186]

>>22014174
what a weird type of bait

[Anonymous No.22014328]

We on team Agamemnon or team Achilles?

Achilles seems like a baby desu.

[Anonymous No.22014348]

>>22014328
Paris.

[Anonymous No.22014401]

>entire war determined by single characters power level
>literal capeshit
dropped

[Anonymous No.22014403]

>>22014401
oh no!
anon dropped it, everybody.
let's cancel the readalong, unfortunately
very sad.
F
RIP

[Anonymous No.22014430]

>>22014348
Nah. If Achilles is a baby then Paris is a fetus.

[Anonymous No.22014449]

>>22011193
So how is this gonna work? Are we just gonna get one day to read each book and then come to the thread to discuss it? I won't be able to get it done in a day.

[Anonymous No.22014451]

>>22014430
Toddlercon is the patrician's choice.

[Anonymous No.22014461]

Dont post the thread til like 5 im very busy this morning because mommy destroyed my windows

[Hephaestus No.22014467]

>>22014461
This is why you set up your linux themes to mimic win 98.

[Anonymous No.22014473]

>>22014328
Agamemnon was being petty. He made a point of taking Achilles' woman because Briseis was the only captive as desirable as Chryseis, and on top of that he was resentful of Achilles' divine heritage because he lost Chryseis due to the interference of Apollo and imputed the meddling of the gods as a whole onto Achilles, plus pulling rank over the top warrior would remind everybody that he may have had to give his woman back but he was still in charge. You know, it's his brother who had his wife stolen, so his family pride is at stake for him to be humiliated like this.
They are both prideful and vengeful, but Agamemnon cast the first missile.

[Anonymous No.22014480]

>>22014449
I'm just going to make sure I do the reading every day, and if I don't have time to post the same day, I will do it the following day. So I might be replying to posts from today about book 1 tomorrow. But either way I will try to just reply to every post every day that I have anything to say about.

[Anonymous No.22014503]

>>22014480
Fair enough, hope you guys have fun.

[Anonymous No.22014602]

You retards know both sides of the Trojan war were Greek right? Hurr durr modern day turkey xdddd

[Anonymous No.22014605]

>>22014602
...yeah?

[Anonymous No.22014720]

If you logged onto /lit/ today and saw people are reading a great book, and you got PISSED, you are going to have a very sad month as I read every single line and chapter of the Iliad in Alexander Pope's heroic verse and discuss it with anyone who's here while you sit in the corner and watch.

[Anonymous No.22014735]

>>22014602

Actually I was surprised to learn from the Lattimore translation’s introduction that Homer himself was almost certainly an Anatolian Greek and probably viewed himself as a descendant of the Achaeans. Later, the Achaeans get kicked out of Greece by barbaroi scum.

You can sort of imagine the Iliad itself was part of a larger story of how Agamemnon’s war sapped the larger Greek empire of resources, leading to the loss of their homeland.

[Anonymous No.22014867]

Is anyone else reading the Chapman translation?

[Anonymous No.22014878]

>>22014348
I always felt more sympathy for Troy

[Anonymous No.22014886]

>>22011926
Chapman's translation isn't in heroic couplets

[Anonymous No.22014900]

>>22011193
>hey beavis, i cut off your head, uh huhuhuhuhuh

[Anonymous No.22014953]

>>22014473
Achilleus' wartime accomplishments easily overshadow Agamemnon's, so he feels the need to assert dominance somehow. Plus Achilleus doesn't show the proper respect when the issue to returning the girl comes up, and Agamemnon sees it as a slight, and responds.....poorly. My god the insults that get thrown:
>You sack of wine, with a dog's eyes, and a deer's heart
holy SHIT

[Anonymous No.22014959]

>>22011193
I'm in! I've got the trusty Lattimore translation, so I'll do the reading when I get off work today instead of playing vidya.

[Anonymous No.22014983]

>>22011821
Don't worry about it, anon. I grew up on Greek myths and stuff, this was my childhood bread and butter, and even so I can 100% say just read each section (book) of the poem carefully, and you'll soon pick up anything you need to know. Dionysios, Odyssius, Achilleus, Agamemnon, Hector - all these will become familiar, welcome names.

Also don't be tricked by the war setting. There is a reason Homer never depicts the Fall of Troy (spoiler alert!) and ends the Iliad where he does.

I hope you join us! Will be fun.

[Anonymous No.22014991]

>>22013048
Based Aiaschad. One of my favorites

[Anonymous No.22014995]

>>22011193
Gonna join this one. I don't remember how far I got last time I tried but I do recall book 2 was literally just a list of ships lol

[Anonymous No.22015035]

>>22011193
Read a real patrician poet like Pindar instead

[Anonymous No.22015132]

Deutschanons, which version? I have both the Fischer Klassik edition by johann Heinrich Voß and an old GDR edition I stole from my mother, picrel auf den ersten Blick sind beide zu kompliziert für mich

[Anonymous No.22015184]

>>22014461
Is this not the thread?

[Anonymous No.22015217]

>>22015184
I figured each day would be a new thread giving we are going a single book at a time

[Anonymous No.22015258]

>>22015217
The books aren't really books in the proper sense. They're chapter length.

[Anonymous No.22015345]

All done with the reading for today. Wondering if taking bryseis was Agamemnon's punishment for Achilles' having called the council - which called Agamemnon's choices into question - rather than being chiefly motivated by a desire for loot.
Some other questions popped into my head as I was writing this.
What exactly is the relationship of the gods to humans? Do sacrifices actually matter beyond giving honor to the gods? Why are they involved in human affairs?

[Anonymous No.22015374]

Do I skip the introduction bros? It is 70 pages long...

[Anonymous No.22015397]

>>22015374
Is it Fagels? It probably gives a good overview of the ancient greek pantheon and history to give you a decent background before jumping in. If you skip it you should be able to piece it together from the discussion threads.

[Anonymous No.22015401]

>>22015345

I haven’t done the reading yet but ultimately the gods engage in proxy battles with each other for political advantage, etc.

One possible inference of the Iliad is that the war between the Achaeans and Ilion is really a power-play by Zeus to smoke out threats to his divine rule. It’s important to remember that Peleus’ wife, the goddess Thetis, was prophesied to bear a son greater than his father, and at one point was being pursued by bigwig gods like Poseidon. Basically, Zeus didn’t want to risk getting deposed by a nephew, so he helps Peleus marry Thetis and makes sure that Thetis’ son is half-mortal. Achilles is a unbearable beast on the field but this is still a massive downgrade on his potential.

If anyone thinks this stuff is interesting, some guy recently ran a pretty cool quest on /qst/ based on the Trojan War using the original literature as the basis of the quest, and that’s how I got interested in the topic.

[Anonymous No.22015433]

>>22015345
My understanding of them is as fickle grandparents treating demigods and humans as their grandchildren. They like to discuss what such and such's child did, pop out every now and then to give out gifts to their favourites, get easily upset when their cookies are scorned, easily appeased with a return of gifts, constantly bicker and so on.

[Anonymous No.22015444]

>>22015397
Yes it is Fagels. I could prob use an overview so i will read it

[Anonymous No.22015445]

>>22015374
if you are following the schedule you can read the daily book and then proceed to spend time reading the introduction. a bit of context never hurts.

[Anonymous No.22015508]

>>22011193
Achilles dies
Hector dies
Agamemnon’s wife kills him when he get home
Odysseus gets lost for a decade
Hector’s son is thrown off a roof
Aeneas founds Rome
Agamemnon’s son kills his mother and is pursued by furies
Ajax commits suicide
Helen and Nestor film a porn Old Farts Young Tarts
Troy falls
Patroclus dies
Patroclus and Achilles bump uglies

There, now you know it all and have no reason to read, fags. Read Theocritus instead

[Anonymous No.22015513]

>>22015508
>reading for plot

[Anonymous No.22015530]

>>22015508
Die, disgusting faggot

[Anonymous No.22015592]

>>22015508
>jesus dies and is nailed to a cross
>water is wet
>sky is blue
you really showed them spoiling a 3000 year old story

[Anonymous No.22015596]

Many parts of the Iliad and Odyssey become a tool for Platonists to explain their philosophy. In Today's reading (meaning book 1) when Achilles is furious and is on the verge of killing Agamemnon because he stole his girl, Athena intervenes and calms him down. This was seen as the passionate part of the soul taking over Achilles, but Athena's whispering made the rational part of his soul take back control.

[Anonymous No.22015610]

>>22015596
How can I summon a waifu Goddess to encourage me to be stoic when my passions take over?

[Anonymous No.22015622]

>>22015610
Two bullocks and a goat or lamb.

[Anonymous No.22015639]

>>22015622
Will she settle for the sacrifice of one messiah, without blemish. A sacrifice valid for all eternity?

[Anonymous No.22015643]

>>22015639
Inflation says no.

[Anonymous No.22015654]

>>22015610
I am sorry anon but why is she your waifu? She was acting like a bitch throughout the whole book

[Anonymous No.22015665]

>>22015643
Christ jibbed me

>>22015654
No spoilers pls

[Anonymous No.22015718]

>>22015345
> Do sacrifices actually matter beyond giving honor to the gods?
In a previous reading I remember Hera scolding another god (Poseidon, I think) for not helping the Greeks despite their sacrifices to him. Seems like an act of good will on the people’s part, but the gods are not obligated to respond and those of less upright character probably take the sacrifices for granted.

[Anonymous No.22015757]

>>22015654
The grey-eyed goddess? She’s fine. Hera and Aphrodite are more like the word you said there.

[Anonymous No.22015765]

>>22015592
damn im sorry i didnt get this read 3000 years ago. dumb faggots

[Anonymous No.22015892]

sexo with Aphrodite

[Anonymous No.22015921]

>>22015757
god I love Athene so much. "grey-eyed goddess" always puts a smile on my face, she's literally perfect

[Anonymous No.22016244]

Another thing that caught my eye during this reading was the description of Athene as having "terrible eyes". It makes me wonder how human/otherworldly she was supposed to look. It's also very different from the Old Testament, in which God is only seen as residing inside a dark cloud and doesn't get any kind of physical description. Seems like there's some food for thought there but I'm not sure quite how.

[Anonymous No.22016647]

>nine days up and down the host ranged the god’s arrow

Was it really necessary for Apollo to pop Greek skulls for nine days AFTER he killed their dogs and mules? Fuck

[Anonymous No.22016892]

>>22014720
Based

[Anonymous No.22017069]

Shit. I would have to start three or four days behind if I did. Is it possible to catch up easily?

[Anonymous No.22017117]

Wow, I wasn't expecting this to be so beautifully written. It feels more modern than it is...

[Anonymous No.22017166]

>>22014602
>You retards know both sides of the Trojan war were Greek right?
From our perspective, sure. I am not sure who felt what unity as a Greek before Homer, though. Homer is a great bit of the sinew that binds the greek tribes into a unified whole. And, yeah - a fair bit of the dirt mentioned in the text got annexed by Turks. I am not even sure where you are going with that comment. Political boundaries change.

[Anonymous No.22017261]

For first-timers: don't make the mistake of reading this like some historical or religious text; you're better off reading it like you would a Shakespearean tragedy.

[Anonymous No.22017264]

>>22017117
What translation? (I’m using fitzgerald and did not have that same impression)

[Anonymous No.22017280]

>>22017261
Who tf would read it as a historical text? Do people really think Diomedes fought Ares?

[Anonymous No.22017292]

>>22017264
Lattimore. Some of the imagery is genuinely beautiful, for example, the Achaeans, after Odysseus' appeals, flooding into battle
>as the multitudinous nations of birds winged, of geese, and of cranes, and of swans long-throated in the Asian meadow beside the Kaystrian waters this way and that way make their flights in the pride of their wings, then settle in clashing swarms and the whole meadow echoes with them.

(I should mention I'm on book 2)

[Anonymous No.22017551]

>>22017261
What does this mean? Im too retarded, I see words then understand them what should I do?

[Anonymous No.22017589]

I wasn't sure whether to interpret the "piercing arrows" as a metaphor for the plague, or as actual giant godly arrows. A certain line refereed to them as piercing all through the Achaean camps, which makes me think they're a metaphor for the plague.

[Anonymous No.22017598]

>>22011193
Stumbled across this thread today and coincidentally I have an unread copy of the Iliad. I'm in!

[Anonymous No.22017611]

>>22015508
half of that either doesn't happen or isn't in the Iliad. besides, the events themselves are only half of it. what's compelling is the progression of the story and the dialogues between characters

[Anonymous No.22017646]

>>22017551
Ares didn't actually cry.

[Anonymous No.22017665]

>>22017611
First Agamemnon when threatning Chryse uses
>>"Long before that, old age will overtake her in my house, in Argas, far from her fatherland. slaving back and forth at the loom, forced to share my bed!"

This is only in ine translation others imply as her not being forced

Also zues at end of book rebuking hera is so funny. I thought this was going to be boring and arduous but this is much more funner.

[Anonymous No.22017692]

>>22017280
>Who tf would read it as a historical text?
Not him, but do you have a competing historical text with which to compare and contrast Homer's account? Homer is one of the foundational texts underlying Greeks unifying. The exaggerations and bloviation were typical of accounts in the era. It's the best we have to work with. Do I think that Ares appeared on the field? No. I think that it is a metaphor. I do not, however, think that the entirety of the story is hogwash. I believe the truth to be obfuscated within the metaphors. I take it all with a grain of salt and move on.

[Anonymous No.22017700]

>>22017692
also I'm gay, if that matters

[Anonymous No.22017702]

>>22017551
>what should I do?
Accept that the text is exaggerated and biased. Read between the lines. Accept that for which you have no better answer. Disregard any Wittgensteinian rebuttal that has no substance to buttress its argument.

[Anonymous No.22017709]

>>22017646
Deiphobos wasn't actually beside Hector

[Anonymous No.22017712]

>>22017700
Nah, I don't think that your faggotry affects my opinion on the topic. It may affect your bias, but this is a text that few are really going to get solidly squared. Just take from it what you can.

[Anonymous No.22017721]

>>22017712
anon, I'm a troll. we do a little trolling 'round these parts. it's gonna be okay

[Anonymous No.22017766]

>>Tell Atrides to arm his long-haired Achaeans

Why is Agamemnon called Atrides who I believe is his father, this is in first lines of second book. Zeus is telling this to dreams he is sending to agamemnon.

[Anonymous No.22017771]

>>22017721
Gay trolls - whatever will you kids come up with next? That sounds like something that I would have heard from Kerouac. I must have missed it. Maybe it's a Ginsberg thing. I'll need to read Howl again. Do you still live under the bridge with the other trolls or do they ostracize you and make you live elsewhere?

[Anonymous No.22017775]

>>22017766
It's a borrowing of the Greek Ἀτρεΐδης, the -ιδης suffix means "son of" so Atrides is "son of Atreus" which can, and will at different times, refer to Agamemnon or Menelaus

[Anonymous No.22017783]

>>22017775
more generally the suffix means "descendent of", so it's patronymic

[Anonymous No.22018140]

I like Agamemnon's speech in Pope's version, it's so regal and domineering
>“Hence on thy life, and fly these hostile plains,
>Nor ask, presumptuous, what the king detains
>Hence, with thy laurel crown, and golden rod,
>Nor trust too far those ensigns of thy god.
>Mine is thy daughter, priest, and shall remain;
>And prayers, and tears, and bribes, shall plead in vain;
>Till time shall rifle every youthful grace,
>And age dismiss her from my cold embrace,
>In daily labours of the loom employ’d,
>Or doom’d to deck the bed she once enjoy’d
>Hence then; to Argos shall the maid retire,
>Far from her native soil and weeping sire.”
I especially like some of his phrasing "time shall rifle" like it's a wind piercing her being. And his listing of "and prayers, and tears, and bribes" just exhausting all options to leave no argument, and his repeated use of the commanding "hence".
I notice some authors use "ribbons" here in place of "laurels" and I have to assume ribbons is the more literal word because laurels is more descriptive. Ribbons make me picture gift wrapping or streamers on a cheerleader's baton.

[Anonymous No.22018175]

>>22015596
>>22015610
Athena's symbolism as wisdom is pretty straightforward, she's born out of Zeus's head. Plato talks about how the etymology of her name could literally mean something along the lines of "divine mind". I know it's boring but you could interpret it not as the goddess seizing Achilles but his own wisdom checking his actions.
But I think the symbolism of her grabbing Achilles by the hair is interesting because, when you grab someone by the hair you literally control which direction their head moves in.

[Anonymous No.22018204]

>>22018140
His dialogue is great, gives me chills in a lot of passages.
>Command thy vassals, but command not me.
>Seize on Briseis, whom the Grecians doom’d
>My prize of war, yet tamely see resumed;
>And seize secure; no more Achilles draws
>His conquering sword in any woman’s cause.
>The gods command me to forgive the past:
>But let this first invasion be the last:
>For know, thy blood, when next thou darest invade,
>Shall stream in vengeance on my reeking blade.

[Anonymous No.22018240]

When Achilles gets mopey and stares into the sea and cries for his mother, he tells her an anecdote that's throwing me for a loop a little bit because this giant Briareus with the hundred hands is reminding me of Hindu gods and I'm trying to think of the connection beyond the many limbs symbolising power.
It could be as simple as it being a story to serve the narrative, but I also find it interesting how a giant is powerful enough to intimidate, okay, Hera and Athena, but Poseidon as well.

[Anonymous No.22018268]

>>22018240
I didn't think much of it. I also didn't think too much of Nestor going on about other heroes. Like sure it's cool to get the references that Homer is alluding to but it's all tangential to the poem proper

[Anonymous No.22018306]

[Anonymous No.22018324]

>ἄλλο δέ τοι ἐρέω, σὺ δ’ ἐνὶ φρεσὶ βάλλεο σῇσι·
>χερσὶ μὲν οὔ τοι ἔγωγε μαχήσομαι εἵνεκα κούρης
>οὔτε σοὶ οὔτέ τῳ ἄλλῳ, ἐπεί μ’ ἀφέλεσθέ γε δόντες·
>τῶν δ’ ἄλλων ἅ μοί ἐστι θοῇ παρὰ νηῒ μελαίνῃ
>τῶν οὐκ ἄν τι φέροις ἀνελὼν ἀέκοντος ἐμεῖο·
>εἰ δ’ ἄγε μὴν πείρησαι ἵνα γνώωσι καὶ οἷδε·
>αἶψά τοι αἷμα κελαινὸν ἐρωήσει περὶ δουρί.
come on, fuck around and find out AgamemNON

[Anonymous No.22018341]

>>22018268
I agree not to overthink everything, but I'm looking at this also as a primary source of ancient religious symbolism insofar as we don't have many better depictions of the myths. It makes me consider the memes as well and to what degree Homer could have been engaged in a vulgarization of the gods for the purposes of entertainment. There's that fragment from Heraclitus that "Homer deserves to be flogged through the lists", which obviously I don't know specifically why he said that. But on the other hand this seems like it must be completely wrong, with how brilliant Homer's poetry is and how highly he's praised by figures like Plato.

[Anonymous No.22018357]

>>22018341
That's fair. I think in the case of Heraclitus it's just that when you start messing with people's religious sensibilities with creative liberties you're naturally gonna ruffle feathers.

[Anonymous No.22018409]

>>22017775
Thanks based anon.

[Anonymous No.22018424]

I’m from a flyover state in the US, but boy does this list of ships and men stir up my patriotism for the Achaeans.

[Anonymous No.22019203]

Is it necessary to read about boats? Too many names and I ve not read greeks before.

[Anonymous No.22019214]

achilles feet.....

[Anonymous No.22019226]

>>22019203
Just read it how I read Leviticus. Make a rough mental note of the patterns that repeat and quickly skim through it for any interesting bits. It's mostly just a list for Greek audiences to soijack over when they hear people they're loosely connected to mentioned.

[Anonymous No.22019359]

>>22019214
if anyone cares, "swift-footed Achilles" (at least typically, I haven't read all of the Iliad in Greek) in Greek is literally something like "Achilles, swift with respect to his feet" (πόδας ὠκύς Ἀχιλλεύς)

[Anonymous No.22019428]

>>22017589
Protip, the divine is always a metaphor for the human world
If divine beings physically shot arrows into people's heads we would live in a vastly different world
Instead we live in the world where plagues pop up in camps from time to time

[Anonymous No.22019493]

>>22019359
It's cool that you're reading the Greek, but your overemphasis of word order makes for a much more awkward translation. What you gain in displaying Greek grammar more precisely you lose in conciseness.

[Anonymous No.22019582]

>>22019493
that's a fair concern. I mean I don't think about such phrases that verbosely typically when I encounter them, unless I haven't seen it before and/or the word order is difficult and I'm trying to understand it more literally to see how everything is working together. I just think it's an interesting construction and thought someone here might find it interesting too

[Anonymous No.22019637]

>>22019582
ngl it does make me a little curious about learning Greek. I should at least learn the alphabet. How easy is it to go from Attic to Koine to Byzantine to Modern? I've heard it's a similar distance as Latin to Italian

[Anonymous No.22019886]

>>22019637
I have virtually no experience with the latter two, and my only experience with Koine is the New Testament, but as far as that goes the transition from Attic to Koine is pretty smooth. Koine has its peculiarities, but a lot of them, maybe most, are just simplifications of Attic. the word order in the New Testament is often closer to English than Attic, certain pronouns aren't used (and so others take up more uses), some verb forms make more sense, some constructions are used less or not at all, etc.

[Anonymous No.22019932]

>>22019886
It makes sense as the writers were likely native Aramaic speakers with a Greek education, so their vocab wouldn't be as broad. Also archaic words fall out of use over time. I think if I were to study Greek I'd try to get at least borderline-conversational in modern before anything else. For practicality's sake as well as for impressing Greek women.

[Anonymous No.22019960]

>>22011193
brother get the book 1 thread up and going already

[Anonymous No.22020088]

>>22019960
This is the book 1 thread. This is also the book 2 thread. Did you read book 1 yet anon?

[Anonymous No.22020410]

I'm having a bit of trouble with how Agamemnon goes from getting the vision to march on Troy to immediately convincing everyone to go home to Greece.

[Anonymous No.22020650]

>>22020410
He wants to test them and give them a punch to the arm if they flinch

[Anonymous No.22020795]

>>22020410

He basically gets Zeus’ vision and immediately wants to test the resolve of his forces without Achilles. Unfortunately, the “brave” Achaeans call his bluff.

Then big brain Odysseus had to step in to save the day by dunking on Thersites, who represents the beta males of the army.

[Anonymous No.22021305]

Are we going to read the Odyssey next?

[Anonymous No.22021340]

>>22021305
perchance. yea, though we musn't get too ahead of ourselves, methinks, lest we fail the objective that is before us presently

[Anonymous No.22021355]

>>22018240
Take Frazer's Golden Bough for a spin some time. He gets into the fact of many gods not being all powerful, or even immortal. It helps to build perspective.

[Anonymous No.22021424]

>>22021340
I’m just glad to be re reading the Iliad. If this classical text reading group went on I’d be forever grateful

[Anonymous No.22021442]

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Reminder: We are currently on day 3, Book 3.

[Anonymous No.22021444]

>>22021442
Not in America (for another 5 mins)

[Anonymous No.22021446]

>>22021442
also lol we had 0 discussion about the catalogue of ships
Looks like this thread is already dead

[Anonymous No.22021453]

>>22021446
My favourite character from the catalogue of ships is Ajax the Shorter. What is your favourite character from the catalogue of ships?

[Anonymous No.22021454]

>>22021446
to be fair the catalogue of ships is one of the most boring books in the Iliad

[Anonymous No.22021455]

>>22021453
For me, it's Diomedes of Argos

[Anonymous No.22021478]

>>22020650
>>22020795
Okay I can't skim Pope's lines, the grammar is too condensed. That detail is probably related in one or two lines during his speech.
>>22021442
I'm currently behind schedule but it's not a huge deal, we're doing it.

[Anonymous No.22021616]

>>22021442
I am reading silently, frankly, I'm not much of a talker and was hoping you guys would do it for me. But fine: what did you guys think of Hephaestus' fall into the island of Lemnos where he was cared for and taught to be a master craftsman by the native Sintians. I found it kind of trippy like there's some kind of symbolism I can't place my finger on. How did the natives acquire this great technological ability to essentially make AGI robots?
>According to Homer, Hephaestus built automatons of metal to work for him or others. This included tripods with golden wheels, able to move at his wish in and out the assembly hall of the celestials;[16] and servant "handmaidens wrought of gold in the semblance of living maids", in them was "understanding in their hearts, and speech and strength", gift of the gods.

[Anonymous No.22021622]

>>22021446
Lmao, this is the least discussable book in the Iliad. It starts to pick up from here, especially around book 10. You’ll see.

[Anonymous No.22021669]

>>22021616
Most likely something to the affect of learning more from your falls than you would remaining stagnant in the divine. Maybe there's some clever wordplay hidden in Lemnos or the name of Sintians but I can't read Greek.

[Anonymous No.22022234]

Can we do a quick roll call? I don't need names or anything but I'd like to know how many anons are here participating.
Please mention this message along with your next reply. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.22022241]

What the fuck is up with Helen, in second chapter she wants Greeks to fight for her and she herself loves Paris(or so I took away in 3rd chapter).

>>The duel ensues;
wherein Paris being overcome, he is snatched away in a cloud
by Venus, and transported to his apartment. She then calls
Helen from the walls, and brings the lovers together.

it appears so I have been mistaken Helen with Hera, also what the fuck Zeus and Hera are siblings.

[Anonymous No.22022272]

>>22022234

mine


>>22011580
>>22011616
>>22017551
>>22017766
>>22019203
>>22022241

[Anonymous No.22022375]

>>22022241
>also what the fuck Zeus and Hera are siblings
yeah the gods are deeply incestuous
>What the fuck is up with Helen, in second chapter she wants Greeks to fight for her and she herself loves Paris(or so I took away in 3rd chapter).
Love's a bitch

[Anonymous No.22022402]

>>22022234
Present.

[Anonymous No.22022751]

>>22022234
me too!

[Anonymous No.22022777]

>>22022402
>>22022751
Thanks guys. I sorta meant to add it along with your comments on book 3 though, so as to not spam the thread. I myself have started falling behind and I'm only half-way through book 2 right now but I'm confident that I'll be able to catch up and keep up.

[Anonymous No.22022784]

>>22022234
Here.

The number of unique posters in the thread is also a decent metric. Maybe cut it in half to subtract out the trolls. Around ~25 anons actually contributing.

[Anonymous No.22022792]

>>22022272
>>22022402
>>22022751
Thanks guys. I sorta meant to add it along with your comments on book 3 though, so as to not spam the thread. I myself have started falling behind and I'm only half-way through book 2 right now but I'm confident that I'll be able to catch up and keep up.

>>22022784
Yeah I should have just looked at that. Although it's always nice to see how many people got filtered out by book 1

[Anonymous No.22022831]

I'm on chapter-19 of Green's Iliad; it's so good bros.

[Anonymous No.22022928]

>>22022792
I don't have any personal takeaways from Book 3. It was just about the fight between Menelaus and Paris to finally end the Troyan war. The victor was Menelaus so Helen should return. Will the war finally end? We are going to find out tomorrow!

[Anonymous No.22022951]

>>22022234
>I‘m just such a whore for (You)s, I’m on my engagement arc

[Anonymous No.22022988]

>>22022951
Sure but are you at least reading the book?

[Anonymous No.22023013]

>>22022988
Man I started with the first book but it’s really too complicated for me… I feel like every line takes me minutes. Maybe I’m too dumb

[Anonymous No.22023015]

>>22022234
Autistic anon, son of anonymous, with the virgin men who hold the keep at the strange land of 4chanlit.

[Anonymous No.22023021]

>>22023013
Have you tried Fagel's?

[Anonymous No.22023028]

>>22022928
>the victor was Menelaus
except for the part where picrel saved Paris. anything short of killing the enemy or surrender is not a victory. not trying to be a douche/gay, just clarifying

[Anonymous No.22023029]

>>22023028
Getting douche/gay vibes from this post

[Anonymous No.22023031]

>>22023021
No I’m reading in German. Made a post higher up asking about the best translation. Is Fagels comparatively easy too read?

[Anonymous No.22023036]

>>22023029
that's fair

[Anonymous No.22023080]

>>22022241
Was Helen kidnapped or did she choose to run away with Paris?

[Anonymous No.22023099]

Why dont Trojans kill piram after him being rescued by Aphrodite, I am reading Book 4 and Zues sends Athena to do some trolling, I think it is because Trojans dont know that Paris is back.

>>22019359
Also Zues is almost alwayse called "one who loves lightning" ,"rider of storm clouds" ,"father of man and gods"

[Anonymous No.22023152]

>>22023099
yeah ancient Greek mythology in general is filled with those sorts of epithets. "one who loves lightning" is literally something like "thunder/lightning-enjoyer" (τερπικέραυνος).

[Anonymous No.22023171]

cool painting about Book 3

[Anonymous No.22023187]

>>22023031
Yeah it's considered the easiest of the decent-quality translations.
There are some things that might just be from the book itself, like Agamenmon being called son of Artreus and also Artreides.

[Anonymous No.22023322]

Absolutely loving it, you guys are great.

>>22023080
From what I know She was kidnapped from her homland by Paris as he went to Melnus as friend then first Melnus came to troy first and peceafully request her back. Paris got her as a Prize for choosing Aphrodite as winner of beauty between , Hera,Athena and her. Helen love hates Paris as anon previously said.

[Anonymous No.22023536]

>>22014867
It's a pretty jarring read. I don't know what Keats saw in Chapman. Pope's Iliad is just better

[Anonymous No.22023582]

>>22022234

I’m here anon, although I’m only halfway into book 2, unfortunately. Will be able to catch up this weekend

[Anonymous No.22023622]

>>22023322
>Helen love hates Paris
Die ewige frau...

[Anonymous No.22023789]

>>22023028
>he thinks the gods are literal characters in the story
tell me how many times you've seen the goddess Aphrodite physically manifest on earth to help someone in a fight?

[Anonymous No.22023802]

>>22023789
>he thinks the gods are literal characters in the story
I'm not quite sure what you're getting at. Aphrodite helped Paris escape death in his battle with Menelaus - that's pretty explicit. I never said she was physcially there and grabbed him in her arms and took him away or anything

[Anonymous No.22023808]

>>22023802
Dude, are you dense? Open your eyes, what do you see? Where are these gods? It's a fucking metaphor. Paris is just some handsome / lucky bloke that's what Homer means. There is no fucking goddess appearing out of thin air bringing him back. He just pussied out like a bitch to go fuck Helen (and when you're a Trojan prince they let you do it)

[Anonymous No.22023841]

>>22023808
>it's a fucking metaphor
I would be curious what you would bring forward from the book that explicitly points in that direction. in the book it talks about various gods manifesting at different moments - whether in their actual bodies or transformed into mortals - and interacting with some of the mortal characters

[Anonymous No.22023970]

Did I commit a great sin by skimming over the part where the constituents of the Akhaean army was introduced?

Also, today is book 3 yes? Can OP, if he is here, kindly so give us a timezone which we may refer to and a daily update which book should have been read for the day?

Also, what are you guys reading on the side? I just finished Voltaire and I'm looking to catch up on Moby Dick.

[Anonymous No.22023982]

>>22023841
Anon you realise Ancient Greeks regularly went up Mount Olympus and saw that there were no gods there? The gods are not supposed to exist in the physical realm per se or at least don't reveal themselves to entire armies. Do you also think they believed that Hephestos fell for a whole day? The text doesn't need spell out how the gods manifest themselves because everyone knew that it was a process in the heart and they just saw that as "real."

[Anonymous No.22023999]

>>22023970
I skimmed through it too although it wasn't as bad as I expected.
>what are you guys reading on the side?
Demons by Dostoevsky and the City of God by St. Augustine

[Anonymous No.22024020]

>>22023970
I'm OP, I'm in US. I feel like most of 4channel is either in the Americas or Europe, which should have basically the same date. For me right now it's May 12th and we are on Book 3.

I'm happy to give an update on which book we're on if I remember, but that's also the purpose of the calendar at the top (second post).

[Anonymous No.22024025]

>>22023999
>Dostoevsky

I want to read Crime and Punishment, only if me having set aside Moby Dick for 2+ years isn't bugging me ironically that I want to read it now more than ever. I recently just started lurking /lit/ again(reading as well; glad I stumbled in this little book club that inspired me even more so) after being off for more than 2 years because of life's necessities.

Do you think I should just start C&P or should I heed to that daemon and continue MD?

[Anonymous No.22024030]

>>22023080
The story goes that Paris traveled to Sparta and was offered hospitality by Menelaus, but while there, he fell in love with Helen and took her with him back to Troy, sparking the Trojan War.

However, the exact nature of Helen's departure from Sparta remains a matter of debate among historians and scholars. Some argue that Helen was indeed kidnapped by Paris, while others suggest that she may have gone with him willingly, either because she had fallen in love with him or because she was unhappy in her marriage to Menelaus.

[Anonymous No.22024032]

I like that the gods shared such human attributes of emotion and mingled on human affairs that the line separating them isn't that far stretched most of the times; it makes it more forgiving and less demanding for/of the gods.

[Anonymous No.22024035]

>>22023982
>Anon you realise Ancient Greeks regularly went up Mount Olympus and saw that there were no gods there?
>regularly
idk if that's true, but that doesn't matter, as again in the Iliad itself it talks about the gods having the ability to show or hide themselves from mortals at will
>the gods are not supposed to exist in the physical realm
>book 1
>" Athene descended from the sky, sent by Hera, the white-armed goddess, who loved and cared for both the lords alike. Athene, standing behind the son of Peleus, tugged at his golden hair, so that only he could see her, no one else. Achilles, turning in surprise, knew Pallas Athene at once, so terrible were her flashing eyes"
idk sounds pretty physical to me
>everyone knew that it was a process of the heart
says you

[Anonymous No.22024038]

>>22023171
Thanks for sharing

Paris is such a loser.

I thought it was interesting that he attributed his failure against Menelaus to "interference from the gods." When, in fact, if it were not for interference from the gods Paris wouldn't even be alive. That is, the gods did interfere, and they interfered on his side.

I'm thinking Homer might have been making a point not to blame your misfortunes on "bad luck." Maybe you've been a net beneficiary of luck and if not for it you'd be in a much worse place than you are now.

[Anonymous No.22024039]

>>22024020

Please do so OP, I don't have the luxury to visit the thread everyday so I might have to catch up 2 or 3 chapters on some occasions.

[Anonymous No.22024130]

>>22024025
I think you might as well finish Moby Dick as you've already started it.

[Anonymous No.22024295]

>>22011193

Thought this might be of good help:

Quick reference for characters in Illiad:

http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~demilio/2211unit1/names.htm

[Anonymous No.22024470]

>>22024035
Sounds like the same thing as when Socrates says he can see his daimon. Might be related to the fact that we've lost the ability to understand mythology--which the Greeks saw as a more powerful form of logos.

[Anonymous No.22024487]

>>22024470
>sounds like the same thing as when Socrates says he can see his daimon
when did he ever say he can "see" it? in the Apology he says that he "hears" one, which is not least the same thing as Homer saying that Athena came down from the sky, pulled Achilles' hair, and he looked into her flashing eyes
>which the Greeks saw as a more powerful form of logos
says what? which Greeks? sure not every single one believed in physical gods - there are some Greeks who say that explicitly - but that doesn't mean all the others thought they were just some metaphor for something. what is the actual evidence that that was a commonly held belief in classical Greece, not just your speculation?

[Anonymous No.22024496]

>>22024487
Mythos [from Ancient Greek μῦθος mûthos] is the term used by Aristotle in his Poetics (c. 335 BCE) to mean an Athenian tragedy's plot as a "representation of an action"[1] or "the arrangement of the incidents"[2] that "represents the action".[3] Aristotle distinguishes plot from praxis – which are the actions the plots represent.

[Anonymous No.22024499]

>>22023982

nigga Aphrodite literally pulled out Paris like a shinobi of the mist village and transported his defeated ass to copulate with his bitch

[Anonymous No.22024521]

>>22024496
mental retardation

[Anonymous No.22024524]

>>22024025
Read Moby Dick, imo it's a contender for the greatest book ever written; C&P is great but it's not.

[Anonymous No.22024527]

>>22024499
>Aphrodite
Is not real. Literally no one with a functioning cerebellum believes in angels appearing out of no where physically pulling people out of battle. There is 0 evidence of this ever happening and our modern understanding of physics proves this to be impossible.
The act of "Aphrodite literally pull[ing] Paris...to copulate with his bitch" is a METAPHOR for the bitch who started this war refusing to even settle it man vs man and instead lies in luxury fucking the woman who is rightfully his enemy's. There are no fucking magical beings who appear out of no where and influence human affairs.
>>22024521
Yes, I understand people with that disability might believe in the physical fairies in these tales. Luckily no one is that stupid in this thread...right?

[Anonymous No.22024536]

>>22024527
>Yes, I understand people with that disability might believe in the physical fairies in these tales. Luckily no one is that stupid in this thread...right?
sooo still no actual evidence, nice

[Anonymous No.22024544]

>>22024536
Exactly! no actual evidence of magic therefore it's understood to be a metaphor
- or else not understood at all!

[Anonymous No.22024559]

>>22024527

anon, the debate here is far from the thought that we are reading an account of history that the author believed to have 100% transpired, i digress that it is to be read as an epic poem sprinkled with the arts of Greek polytheism

[Anonymous No.22024563]

>>22024544
yes, because people always properly consider the evidence or lack thereof when dealing with spiritual/supernatural matters. I'm not sure why you're so attached to this idea, but do you sweaty

[Anonymous No.22024569]

>>22024559
You can't sugarcoat shit
brevity is the soul of wit
the gods aren't real
facts don't care how you feel
>>22024563
thinking people do, most people don't

[Anonymous No.22024573]

>>22024569
>thinking people do, most people don't
that idea works in my favor though

[Anonymous No.22024578]

>>22024521
All moderns have autism which is why we have trouble understanding the gods and images in general. Nobody before the Reformation saw everything in terms of external objective facts, for example, no one believed that Mary was in the statue, but after the Reformation the wood either contained Mary herself or it was just a lump of wood, a complete failure of understanding its metaphorical nature--that it was neither, that is to say, there was no either/or. Aristotle uses 'metaphor' in the same sense as what Plato calls 'ikon'. The Greeks literally measured the Earth's circumference to an accurate degree, you think they believed the Aphrodite thing happened or that Hephestos fell off their mountain for a day? Btw I'm not making the argument for atheism per se like the other autistic anon.

[Anonymous No.22024588]

>>22024578
>the argument for atheism per se like the other autistic anon
dont put words in my mouth you shortsighted dog!
The absence of physical beings appearing out of thin air ripping soldiers from the battlefield has NOTHING to do with the question of whether or not there is a divine creator.
Since you find it so important I will assure you I am no atheist, but I will never pretend to understand the nature let alone the mind of the almighty.

[Anonymous No.22024596]

>>22024569

you are insufferable. no one here sits reading a 2000+ year old fable and taking it as actual events that happened, let alone Homer writing dialogues between gods in Olympus. you are the only one who keeps insinuating these things. though only i wish to see the grey eyed Goddess with my own eyes

[Anonymous No.22024597]

>>22024588
okok we are in agreement then

[Anonymous No.22024600]

>>22024596
>you are insufferable. no one here sits reading a 2000+ year old fable and taking it as actual events that happened, let alone Homer writing dialogues between gods in Olympus. you are the only one who keeps insinuating these things. though only i wish to see the grey eyed Goddess with my own eyes

[Anonymous No.22024601]

>>22024578
>The Greeks literally measured the Earth's circumference to an accurate degree, you think they believed the Aphrodite thing happened or that Hephestos fell off their mountain for a day?
I don't know the exact division of society and activities between them and age groups across classical Greece, but it's not obvious to me that a minority actually had such knowledge first-hand about geometry in general or as it pertains to earth. even still, plenty of people in the past who had relatively advanced ideas still believed in other ideas less advanced. Newton comes to mind immediately. here too it's not an either/or situation: even if most Greeks didn't believe Hephestos fell of a mountain for a full day doesn't mean that they didn't think he existed and could manifest in the physical world and affect it in this way or that; or any of the other canonical gods

[Anonymous No.22024606]

>>22024601
>it's not obvious to me that a minority
it's not obvious that *more* than a minority... is what I meant to write

[Anonymous No.22024613]

>>22024601
They believed in the spiritual realm (the one where "Beauty" itself exists, aka Aphrodite) like everyone everywhere before modernity. You can call me a pseud but this is what I genuinely believe.

[Anonymous No.22024619]

>>22024596
There's pretty extensive proof that Troy and the Trojan royal family are both real though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hector
It seems way more likely that the story is more or less accurate with certain things being embellished for effect.
Again literally no one with the intelligence required to memorize the entire poem actually believes in supernatural beings appearing on the battlefield but they also know that when a warrior is on a real tear it can send a shockwave of fear through the ranks more powerful than a thunderbolt.
They also understand that great battles are started by cowardly and pathetic men.
If only we could condense these complex ideas into figurative language that could conjure beauty in the minds of readers through the power of words alone...maybe some kind of metaphor...about gods idk

[Anonymous No.22024628]

>>22024613
>you can call me a pseud but this si what I genuinely believe
all I'm asking for is evidence, not conjecture, that most people believed that. you're free to believe it, and believe it or not I'm open to that idea, it's just that you and the other anon have not offered much imo in that direction. one of you started off by saying that it was a metaphor for Greeks, and I concede that surely some believe that, but it's not obvious to me that those people were in the minority in Greek society. all the evidence towards a metaphorical sense of the Greek pantheon is some quotes by a handful of particular, learned philosphers and a handful of learned mathematicians (which is also not obvious they were mostly atheists or pantheists)

[Anonymous No.22024634]

>>22024628
>were in the minority in Greek society
weren't* in the minority... fuck I can't type

[Anonymous No.22024636]

>>22024628
the intelligent have always been in the minority

[Anonymous No.22024640]

>>22024636
again, that goes *against* the idea that most Greeks thought of the gods in a purely metaphorical sense

[Anonymous No.22024644]

>>22024527

If you don't read it with the free spirit of thought and bind yourself to strict natural science, how can you draw any further metaphors when for many instances a supernatural occurrence had a direct effect of the physical world as is plainly described and narrated? I mean, how painful it is, or rather painfully boring, that with refusing for the moment to indulge in mythology for a while, for the sake of indulging in the world of imagination, you have to come up with analogies or what you call metaphors just to make peace with your prejudices and obstinance?

[Anonymous No.22024657]

>>22024628
This is 4chan, conjecture is all you're going to get. Anyway I'm not sure what you mean by "evidence," there is none, only interpretation. I can only give mine, not some academics; and let me clarify mine:
The inability to understand metaphor is, quite literally, autism. It isn't a question of intelligence in this case. Take the statue of the Virgin Mary example I mentioned earlier: no sane person would have thought that it was her, but it was also not taken merely a piece of wood; it was instead something rather special that would carry us across to make a connection with a world that is not the everyday world, and in that sense, that phenomenon is utterly intrinsic to the relationship between the spiritual realm and art. It's odd that we have to stress this just as it's odd that we now have to apologise for using the criterion of beauty and evaluating a work of art. In any other era in any other place, this would have seemed nonsensical and as though we'd lost our direction, which I think is a fair judgement. A really good example that delineates this clearly is the ending of Andrei Rublev (I can't think of any literature right now) where his work is presented as an image that "speaks for itself," after all the words have been spent.

[Anonymous No.22024658]

>>22024640
I don't think Greeks were generally more or less intelligent than modern man.
Therefore I doubt 80% of them were functionally sentient.
I do not care about what the majority of those literal river shitters thought. The point in question is whether or not Aphrodite descended from the heavens and pulled Paris back to his bed...or if it's a metaphor for the weak bitch who started the whole fighting refusing to fight on his own behalf.
>>22024644
This is not a fictional story though, this is the foundation of the classical greek civilization. The conquerors of Troy would literally found the civilization which would destroy the armies of Darius and Xerxes along with the greek peoples in Western Europe (including Etruscans, Romans, and Punic)
This is THE foundational document of western civilization (which conquered the world and ostensibly walked on the moon) and you have the insolence to imply these people believed magic

[Anonymous No.22024680]

>>22024658
>I don't think Greeks were generally more or less intelligent than modern man.
Semi-related but Galton in pic related estimated the average Athenian citizen (male) to have an IQ of 120 to 125 and this was in Victorian times for whom there's some evidence were higher IQ than us so it would probably come around to 130+. Probably bullshit methodology but whatever. He later revised it to 115-119.

[Anonymous No.22024737]

>>22024658
>This is THE foundational document of western civilization (which conquered the world and ostensibly walked on the moon) and you have the insolence to imply these people believed magic

How could I not? Why can't I draw an assumption of a civilization long before us that considering they had not so much the information and sciences as we have now, that we now so fancy to weaponize and dismiss such ancient practice of thought and beliefs as folly, as if to reduce them to mere children incapable of any remarkable deed? I'm saying, if you are implying that it is insolent of me to say that they believed in magic, of gods, as if I undermined them altogether, then you are completely wrong in this regard. Of them believing in the supernatural, does not discredit their feats as a civilization, feats born out of intellect and of the sciences, you are the one putting words in the mouths of people here, you imply that their polytheistic beliefs instantly dismiss their capability to rationalize when it is clearly not the case.

[Anonymous No.22024756]

>>22024658
>The point in question is whether or not Aphrodite descended from the heavens and pulled Paris back to his bed...or if it's a metaphor for the weak bitch who started the whole fighting refusing to fight on his own behalf.

or maybe the author just wanted to write a cool story bro, seriously not everything has to follow your logical world of naturalism. it's a touch of his art and imagination, cant an author partake in such joys? whether or not Aphrodite was literally involved in the elope of Paris from the duel; it set out as a nice precursor for what happened next when Agamemnon roused his captains and their troops that started to lax which was just reasonable as they were promised of a much lenient fate - that they dont need to go into bloody war for two men lusting over some pussy; ready as most of them to go and quit to their homes and families, being away for 9 long years; the same sentimentality that visited them when they were tempted to dismiss from war just the night before

[Anonymous No.22025115]

>>22024578
Martin Luther was most definitely an autist

[Anonymous No.22025136]

>>22024527
I dont think Homer believed in gods or them being able to directly interfear, but how would you explain Paris being transported to bedroom? His army would not have helped him and it was not right beside him.

[Anonymous No.22025325]

>>22024527
Remind me again who was Helen/Achilles daughter/son of?

Achilles bitching to his mother gives such comedic schizo wibe.

[Anonymous No.22025453]

>>22014143
This board doesn't read. Dont kid yourself

[Anonymous No.22025611]

Book 4 Pope translation

When Idomeneus says to Agamemnon
>The field shall prove how perjuries succeed,
>And chains or death avenge the impious deed.

I know how he is rebuking Trojans but this sentence is very tricky I had to read it in other translation to figure it out. So please clarify it for me, he is meaning
>When perjuries succeed their consequences will be death.

[Anonymous No.22025742]

>>22025611
>268-71
>ἀλλ᾽ ἄλλους ὄτρυνε κάρη κομόωντας Ἀχαιοὺς
>ὄφρα τάχιστα μαχώμεθ᾽, ἐπεὶ σύν γ᾽ ὅρκι᾽ ἔχευαν
>Τρῶες: τοῖσιν δ᾽ αὖ θάνατος καὶ κήδε᾽ ὀπίσσω
>ἔσσετ᾽ ἐπεὶ πρότεροι ὑπὲρ ὅρκια δηλήσαντο.
>"But rouse the other long-haired Achaeans so that we may fight most swiftly, since the Trojans violated (lit. poured together/commingled) the oaths. And in turn they will have death and troubles (lit. death and troubles will be/exist for them) hereafter, since they first caused damage beyond the oaths."
so the Greek is pretty basic and explicit, Pope's translation here is just a bit liberal

[Anonymous No.22025767]

>>22025742
ὑπέρ + accusative also has the definition of "in violation of", so the last bit might more accurately read "caused damage in violation of the oaths"

[Anonymous No.22025828]

is this supposed to be comparable to three kingdoms

[Anonymous No.22025837]

>>22025828
Take up knitting instead of compulsively shitposting 24/7.

[Anonymous No.22025841]

>>22025837
i've been offline for 10-12 days

[Anonymous No.22025846]

>>22025841
Very good.

[Anonymous No.22025849]

>>22025846
so whats your fucking problem

[Anonymous No.22025857]

>>22025849
Extend it to 30 days starting now.

[Anonymous No.22025862]

>>22025857
take your own advice

[Anonymous No.22025954]

>He gives command to “curb the fiery steed,
>Nor cause confusion, nor the ranks exceed:
>Before the rest let none too rashly ride;
>No strength nor skill, but just in time, be tried:
>The charge once made, no warrior turn the rein,
>But fight, or fall; a firm embodied train.
>He whom the fortune of the field shall cast
>From forth his chariot, mount the next in haste;
>Nor seek unpractised to direct the car,
>Content with javelins to provoke the war.
>Our great forefathers held this prudent course,
>Thus ruled their ardour, thus preserved their force;
>By laws like these immortal conquests made,
>And earth’s proud tyrants low in ashes laid.”

Again from popes Translation sorry for going ahead but I am ahead because of geography
here Nestor commands his troops and Im having specific problem where he says to mount next chariot
I first read Pope's and came to conclusion he is asking his troops to mount the chariot when someone on it dies
and not to give reins to those who are 'unpractised', but in other 3 translations it is pretty clear that, Nestor is commanding them not to throw javelins

>“Can Peleus’ son forget a warrior’s part.
>And fears Ulysses, skill’d in every art?

Here first I thought Peleus was also father of Menestheus but I have found it is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peteus
and author made mistake or maybe he is throwing a jibe at Achilles but in other translations he clearly meant it for Menestheus.
also second sentence gave me troubles (understanding the wording meaning was instantly clear) but as typing this I think I understood it.

>Discord! dire sister of the slaughtering power,
>Small at her birth, but rising every hour,
>While scarce the skies her horrid head can bound,
>She stalks on earth, and shakes the world around
>The nations bleed, where’er her steps she turns,
>The groan still deepens, and the combat burns.
Here I dont unserstand at all what is meant by While scarce...can bound
I think this refers that when skys is completely gone can she be calmed so maybe at night when fighting stops

>>22011926
>>22025767
>>22025742
Thank you guys

[Anonymous No.22026148]

>>22025954
haven't read the english but he really does expand from the original, the quote from Nestor is relatively short
>«μηδέ τις ἱπποσύνῃ τε καὶ ἠνορέηφι πεποιθὼς
>οἶος πρόσθ’ ἄλλων μεμάτω Τρώεσσι μάχεσθαι,
>μηδ’ ἀναχωρείτω· ἀλαπαδνότεροι γὰρ ἔσεσθε.305
>ὃς δέ κ’ ἀνὴρ ἀπὸ ὧν ὀχέων ἕτερ’ ἅρμαθ’ ἵκηται,
>ἔγχει ὀρεξάσθω, ἐπεὶ ἦ πολὺ φέρτερον οὕτω.
>ὧδε καὶ οἱ πρότεροι πόλεας καὶ τείχε’ ἐπόρθεον
>τόνδε νόον καὶ θυμὸν ἐνὶ στήθεσσιν ἔχοντες.»
he's basically saying that it's best(ἐπεὶ ἦ πολὺ φέρτερον οὕτω) for someone who meets another chariot (ἕτερ’ ἅρμαθ’ ἵκηται) from foot(ἀπὸ ὧν ὀχέων) to literally "reach it with the spear"(ἔγχει ὀρεξάσθω)
I checked also a non-anglo translation(Italian) which makes it also fairly clearer.
>Here I dont unserstand at all what is meant by While scarce...can bound
it's trying to translate this construction οὐρανῷ ἐστήριξε κάρη, which literally it's like setting the head fixed onto the sky, the idea being as I understand, hence the translation, that as she walks the earth her head is like pressing against the sky because how big she is

[Anonymous No.22026235]

Just finished book 3. To everyone asking about how one could metaphorically interpret Aphrodite whisking Paris away:
It was stated that the day was extremely foggy, and Aphrodite indeed appeared as a fog of sorts. Also she broke Paris' chinstrap. It sounds to me like he could have just run away like a little bitch "out of love" and went to hide in a room, telling a servant woman (which is the form Aphrodite took when approaching Helen)

[Anonymous No.22026382]

>>22026235
Paris seems like a complete coward with this and also how he stole Helen with the help of Aphrodite then too.

[Anonymous No.22026387]

>>22026235
First of all it was not foggy, that is description of how much dust was disturbed by marching Acheans, and still who is Helen daughter of?

[Anonymous No.22026694]

>>22022234
sup

[Anonymous No.22026831]

>>22025954
>4.40-45
>...καὶ Ἔρις ἄμοτον μεμαυῖα,
>Ἄρεος ἀνδροφόνοιο κασιγνήτη ἑτάρη τε,
>ἥ τ᾽ ὀλίγη μὲν πρῶτα κορύσσεται, αὐτὰρ ἔπειτα
>οὐρανῷ ἐστήριξε κάρη καὶ ἐπὶ χθονὶ βαίνει:
>ἥ σφιν καὶ τότε νεῖκος ὁμοίϊον ἔμβαλε μέσσῳ
>ἐρχομένη καθ᾽ ὅμιλον ὀφέλλουσα στόνον ἀνδρῶν.
>"...and incessantly eager Eris/Discord/Strife, sister and comrade of man-slaying Ares, who at first (being) little helms herself, but then she fixes her head on the sky and walks on the earth: then too she threw a shared battle in the middle, moving along the crowd and increasing the groaning of men"
I think >>22026148 is right in that it has to do with her size. the Greek is obviously making a contrast with the πρῶτα...αὐτὰρ ἔπειτα and in the first clause it talks about her being little (ὀλίγη) and the second about her being able to fix her head on the sky (and actually doing it). Caroline Alexander translates it "...she is small when she first rises up, but in the end she leans her head against the heavens even as she stried upon the earth." so I think it's just talking about how she grows as the battle continues and creates more havoc and death (increases the groans of men)

[Anonymous No.22026834]

>>22026831
>>4.40-45
4.440-45 I meant

[Anonymous No.22026838]

Book 4 at end is so much like >>22013225

[Anonymous No.22027273]

Will there be a dedicated thread for each book or are we just going to use this for the whole thing?

[Anonymous No.22027287]

time to start hyping up Diomedes(PBUH)

[Anonymous No.22027752]

>>22027273

only a handful participating, so new thread a day would be a bad idea

on a side note, you guys finish book 4 today? how was it?

I am curious how the promise of Zeus to glorify Akhilleus by shaming Agamemnon will play out in these turn of events, since he seceded to Hera's plead and Athena's, at this crucial time.

[Anonymous No.22027857]

>>22027752
The battle at the end was kino

[Anonymous No.22027935]

The narration of the battle along with the ending make me wonder what the text expresses about the war itself. On the one hand we see brutal deaths and men whose eyes are forever filled with darkness, but also a display of skill and courage in each warrior. Thus, both by the description of the deaths and by the verses that give poetry to those same deaths, I believe that this book does not glorify war itself, in fact the other book is even more tragic, but the attitude that men take in it: war can be cruel and brutal, but it is part of human nature, and there is nothing reprehensible in it if men act with courage and virtue.
Also, fuck Thersites.

[Anonymous No.22027991]

>>22027935
>war can be cruel and brutal, but it is part of human nature, and there is nothing reprehensible in it if men act with courage and virtue.
most of what I heard from both sides are dick sizing contest at best, though ive admired that dude who called out Hektor doing shitfuck in the backlines, imagine fighting for Troy as a far alliance and u gain almost nothing from winning this war(or lose everything) and seeing your own general just sitting on his balls the entire fight. not to take away any credit from the book though

[Anonymous No.22028106]

>>22026387
Since none take my question here is my way of justifying it, Helen's mother was surveying the country while disguised as beautiful lady, hence swan, found someone beautiful hence another swan , her woman brain sexed and she fathered Helen and others

>>22027991
Care to point out where is Hecktor is called out I seem to have missed that.

[Anonymous No.22028108]

>>22017665
My translation (Butler, Barnes and Noble) uses the word "couch" instead of "bed." Bed makes more sense; I doubt the ancient Greeks had a concept of couches.

[Anonymous No.22028131]

>>22028108
They had couches and would lay on them at parties. it was a chill vibe.

[Anonymous No.22028138]

>>22028108
>>22028131
you seem like you're going to want a source for this so here is an image I found online of what I'm talking about. It is from a vase depicting a symposium. One thing that people have difficulty understanding about the Greeks and Ancient Civilizations in general is that even though they did have struggles and hardships we may have difficulties imagining today, their lives were not non-stop discomfort and violence. This was a very common mistake for me to make in my early years at university.

[Anonymous No.22028174]

>>22028108
I read it in 3 others and all of them says someting about bed
>>22028138
I have one similar and I thought of this kind of couch immedieately.

[Anonymous No.22028233]

>>22017766
Do you guys think "Atrides" is where Frank Herbert got "House Atreides" from in Dune?

[Anonymous No.22028559]

>>22028233
Absolutely, I'd be surprised if he hadn't directly said so.

[Anonymous No.22028567]

>>22028233
Other way around

[Anonymous No.22028770]

>>22022234
here

[Anonymous No.22028800]

>>22011193
I'm in. Haven't read the Illiad in almost 10 years. I read the Odyssey a year ago though, so this feels like good timing to be back.

[Anonymous No.22028845]

>>22028800
Glad you could make it

[Anonymous No.22028968]

>>22028845
>antibias
>these people take away compelling literature and fill it with trash that pushes their political beliefs
fuck off, the Odyssey is based. I watched the TV series in middle school and our teacher taught us some Greek mythology, which lead me to eventually read other classical authors and it changed my life. fuck these people

[Anonymous No.22029211]

>>22028968
For a moment there I thought the cyclips was wearing skin coloured sunglasses

[Anonymous No.22029536]

>>22011193
Ok, book 5 today my friends. May 14th.

> In the fighting, Diomedes kills many Trojans, including Pandaros, and defeats Aeneas. Aphrodite rescues him before he can be killed, but Diomedes attacks her and wounds the goddess's wrist. Apollo faces Diomedes and warns him against warring with gods, which Diomedes ignores. Apollo sends Ares to defeat Diomedes. Many heroes and commanders join in, including Hector, and the gods supporting each side try to influence the battle. Emboldened by Athena, Diomedes wounds Ares and puts him out of action.

[Anonymous No.22029544]

>>22011193
Will join it. Illiad is among my favorite books(and the second book I have read in my life, Odyssey being the first one).

[Anonymous No.22029681]

I should probably stick to ai art

[Anonymous No.22029990]

>>22028106

look at line 540

[Anonymous No.22030008]

>>22029536
>Apollo faces Diomedes and warns him against warring with gods, which Diomedes ignores

I might have to object. Diomedes was taken aback by Apollo when he warned him(far from ignoring him at all). Later then in the book we can see when, Athena upon coming down from Mt Olympus to deal with Ares, sees Diomedes out of battle; the latter reasons that he was scared of provoking the gods through Apollo.

[Anonymous No.22030076]

Hey guys, really want to start reading the book with you but know nothing about greek mythology. Do i really need to read "Mythology" bye Edith Hamilton to understand the whole story and its background?

[Anonymous No.22030117]

>>22030076
not really, I'm about 3/4 through it in Greek and I didn't really feel overwhelmed by the mythology or feel the need to backtrack with some other book; you are going to learn along in many ways, and also in order since the Iliad represents the oldest memory of how Greeks would conceive their gods

[Anonymous No.22030131]

>>22030076
You should be fine to jump right in. Just skim this thread as you go and ask any questions you have. We're up to book 5 right now.

[Anonymous No.22030174]

>>22030076

this is my first greek anon
whenever i get confused about a name that pops up i just use this for my reference

http://shell.cas.usf.edu/~demilio/2211unit1/names.htm

it's the names of significant characters that appears in the book, helps alot

[Anonymous No.22030282]

>>22030117 #
>>22030131 #
>>22030174 #

Thank you!
I'm on the last pages of Hundred years of solitude that i'll be finishing today. As soon as i finish it i will catch up with you.

[Anonymous No.22030967]

>>22021446
I found a useful map of where everyone comes from.

[Anonymous No.22030974]

>>22030967
based and useful. thanks

[Anonymous No.22031007]

>>22029681
sovl

[Anonymous No.22031015]

Just finished book three, trying to catch up. What happened to Castor and Pollux, Helen's brothers? Why are they dead? Did they die in a different story?

[Anonymous No.22031016]

How are there people who don't know anything about Greek gods? Don't they teach this in school?

[Anonymous No.22031135]

What kind of armour did they use during the Trojan war? Reading book 4 and 5 it doesn't seem too effective

[Anonymous No.22031245]

>>22031135
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/armour5.htm

[Anonymous No.22031382]

>>22031016
Apparently the story of their deaths was captured in Stasinus' Cypria, which has been lost to time. Sorry anon. Here's a brief reconstructed summary:
"Castor was murdered by Idas, but Pollux killed Lynceus; in retribution Zeus killed Idas with a thunderbolt. Zeus then gave Pollux the choice between spending all his time on Olympus or giving half of his immortality to his mortal brother, so that they could alternate realms together."
Stories of the twins vary on the choice that was made.

There's also this, which is more relevant to our epic:
"When their sister Helen was abducted by Theseus, the half-brothers invaded his kingdom of Attica to rescue her. In revenge they abducted Theseus's mother Aethra and took her to Sparta while setting his rival, Menestheus, on the throne of Athens. Aethra was then forced to become Helen's slave. She was ultimately returned to her home by her grandsons Demophon and Acamas after the fall of Troy."

[Anonymous No.22031410]

>>22031382
Sorry this was for >>22031015

>>22031016
At school I read Shakespeare and Sylvia Plath

[Anonymous No.22031430]

>>22031245
Ok this is fucking kino

[Anonymous No.22031441]

>>22031430
I'd love to stab Agamemnon right through his bronze-protected chest with a modern stainless steel kitchen knife

[Anonymous No.22031454]

>>22031441
and then fuck his wife and have his son revenge kill me

[Anonymous No.22031468]

>>22031454
Yep but his wife is pregnant and the younger brother eventually kills his older brother in an unrelated feud that poetically mirrors that first stabbing

[Anonymous No.22031812]

>>22031015
>>22031382

I think anon was referencing the passage in Book 3 or 4 where Helen is wondering why her brothers Castor and Pollux are not present amongst the Achaeans and there’s a reference to them being buried in Lacedamon/Sparta

[Anonymous No.22031907]

>>22031382
Thank you

[Anonymous No.22032119]

Pretty interesting that the gods are explicitly mentioned as being vulnerable to harm, and that Pallas Athena literally command Diomedes to murder Aphrodite if possible.

[Anonymous No.22032128]

>incest upon incest
>mfw
>hector looks for his sister
>suddenly that same sister is the bearer of his firstborn

i swear every goddamn time a wife of some sort is mentioned 70% its gotta be his sister too(im speaking those of royal bloodlines), mortals and immortals alike

to be fair tho, i shouldn't be surprised with all the other family feuds going around, this one just caught me by surprise

[Anonymous No.22032139]

>>22032119

laughed a bit to the part where Aphrodites cried to Zeus about Diomedes slashing her skin and Zeus just mocked her basically told her she got what was coming, pretty funny if u may ask

[Anonymous No.22032311]

>>22032139

The Lattimore translation is even more amusing when Zeus bitchslaps a whining Ares at the end of Book 5

[Anonymous No.22032348]

>>22011235
Caroline Alexander

[Anonymous No.22032482]

i fell behind i'm just about to read the catalogue of ships
i think i'll keep up now, i just had to read book 1 like 6 times before i grasped it but i'm starting to get in the swing of it now

[Anonymous No.22032604]

Can a midwit with a public school education enjoy reading this?

[Anonymous No.22032726]

>>22011193
I need help bros. Should I read the Butler or Hammond translation? I read the latter a long long time ago (it was fine, I guess) and these are the only two versions I have.

[Anonymous No.22032734]

>>22032726
i'd suggest hammond, but read a stanza from each and decide for yourself

>these are the only two versions I have
if ebooks are comfortable, you'd have access to virtually all translations ever made

[Anonymous No.22033050]

>>22032604
Sure. It might be a little tricky at the start but if you're paying attention, have a bit of help, and accept the fact that we're not in ancient greece and won't get all the references then you'll be fine.

[Anonymous No.22033566]

>>22032604

Sure, but you should feel ready to google the various epithets and people referenced.

It seems very daunting at first but the cast of actual characters is smaller than you think, since most of the gods have like 5-10 epithets. Once you learn these it’s much more straightforward.

I would also recommend the Lattimore translation that other anons have suggested, it has been easier for me to approach than some of the other translations that try to perfectly emulate the rhyming scheme.

[Anonymous No.22033792]

OP finna make another thread or what