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/lit/ - Literature

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22005514 No.22005514 [Reply] [Original]

>no moral or message
>no Manifest destiny bad sentiment
>everyone is a murderhobo
>the story is just people doing devil shit
>subtly implies "blacks and natives were just as bad as whites. There was no difference between their circumstances. It's just people randomly killing each other to satisfy their boner. No context"
Why do leftists like this again lmao

>> No.22005525

>>22005514
Have you read Engels on the German Peasants War? The point of historical materialist discourse was to devalorise History and produce history as a science for proletarian self-liberation. Not for "the good," but for the advancing of the economic position of one class by the elimination of class society.

Modern leftism is an amoral economism which views culture as a tool to develop class power.

You probably meant "progressives."

>> No.22005538

>>22005525
Marxism is an amoral yeah. I remember marx justifying colonization of India using hismat.
but modern leftism is very much influenced by anarchists and progressives. Marxists are just relegated to obscure corners of academia.

>> No.22005544

>>22005538
I pity you being surrounded by liberal anarchists. Where I live anarchists are just historical materialists with a focus on actual workers democracy as exhibited by organised bodies of workers.

>> No.22005547

>>22005514
>>no moral or message
What is this, Reading Rainbow? Fuck outta here nigga on god!!!!

>> No.22005550

>>22005538
>Marxism is an amoral
but capitalism and the profit motive is so moral right bro

>> No.22005551

>>22005544
Anarchists hate hismat. Graeber wrote an entire book before dying to debunk it. I think we have to make a distinction between OG anarchists who were moral af to pomo influenced anarchists.

>> No.22005555

>>22005550
>but capitalism and the profit motive is so moral right bro
Yes. The ideology of capitalism relies on the production of a morality of individual expression. Morality is viewed as an ideological limitation (a concrete fact) but a limitation in historical materialism.

>>22005551
By the time of the 2nd black international the IWW had developed an independent line on the history of man being dictated by their material circumstances. Platformism shares a similar "calculated" attitude. The impact of historical materialism was so great in part because of the development of the working class and in part because of late pre-Taylorism.

>Graeber
That'd be like me citing Lenin for Engels.

>> No.22005556

>>22005550
I mean the ideology itself purports to be amoral. Marx subverts the definition of exploitation and turns into something that's just a feature of capitalism, nothing good or bad, akin to exploiting the use value of oil. Marx thought moral considerations of anarchists were utopian bs.

>> No.22005563

>>22005550
Textbook whataboutism.

>> No.22005564

>>22005555
>Yes. The ideology of capitalism relies on the production of a morality of individual expression. Morality is viewed as an ideological limitation (a concrete fact) but a limitation in historical materialism.
gobbledygook
The profit motive is amoral.

>> No.22005566

>>22005563
The guy is literally pro capitalism by his own admission though.

>> No.22005581

>>22005564
You do you honey, but don't do history courses.

>> No.22005587

>>22005581
You are clinically retarded and/or currently running a payday loan company.

>> No.22005589

>>22005587
Get back to me after 18 Brumaire.

>> No.22005591

>>22005589
not an argument

>> No.22005637

>>22005538
>justifying
is-ought. historical materialism is an analytical tool, it doesn't 'justify' any movement of history. It looks at the material conditions and class conflict and its necessary consequences.
also your post is retarded and you have zero reading comprehension lmao

>> No.22005657

>>22005637
Idiot. He literally said it's best for India to be colonized by Britain because they helped India move up the civilization tree or something thereby creating the conditions for socialism.
He was mostly incorrect about what brits were doing in India.

>> No.22005663

>>22005657
He was right. You're wrong.

>> No.22005667

>>22005663
>marx
>right about anything
Thanks to him the labor movement is seen as inherently fascistic.

>> No.22005668

>>22005514
The core of it is that anglo-americans are equally if not more savage and evil than the natives despite coming from 'civilization‘,

I have no idea why /pol/tards like it since it portrays their people as corrupt and evil murderers.

>> No.22005670

>>22005667
India is the most successful colony.

>> No.22005674

>>22005670
India is a shithole

>> No.22005679

>>22005674
India was always a shithole.

>> No.22005681

>>22005668
The leftist narrative is that the evil white man tricked poor natives into giving up their land and killed them if they didn't toe the line and forced them into reservations because of manifest destiny.
In this novel the natives are portrayed as savage rapists and the crew is mixed race

>> No.22005682

What's all this about leftism? The book didn't have any political message at all.

>> No.22005687

>>22005679
Britoids didn't do anything to improve them. Instead they made them more retarded. They didn't even educate them considering the literacy rate was below 10% when they left India.

>> No.22005692

>>22005682
The hobbesian take 'All Humans are fundamentally evil' is very political

>> No.22005694

>>22005681
> the crew is mixed race
Isn’t there just a token nigger and all the rest are anglos? I have fuzzy memories.

>> No.22005701

>>22005692
I guess I just agree with Hobbes then.

>> No.22005705

>>22005701
Are you violent and abusive? Will you kill people if you can getaway with it?

>> No.22005712

>>22005692
Retard. That's not what Hobbes said at all

>> No.22005715

>>22005705
That's not the point. The point is that things like justice and fairness are abstract concepts that are only worth as much as people are willing to adhere to them. In the absence of law, everyone does what's best for themselves. Evil does exist because humans are evil, evil exists because humans are capable of it.

>> No.22005717

>>22005712
In a primitive stage of human development, humans will fight against each other, a war of all against all, and then get tired and form a system of government to maintain peace, to keep the violent tendencies of men at bay.

>> No.22005721

>>22005692
He was wrong then. It should be more like “All humans are fundamentally selfish”

>> No.22005727

>>22005715
Yeah I'm asking are you evil too? Will you do evil shit in the absence of law and order?

>> No.22005730

>>22005721
Selfish/Selfless seems like a false dichotomy to me.

>> No.22005750

>>22005687
There's a reason they're the only race that still consistently tries to pass on what they learn long after whites became complacent. The britishers gave them just enough to entice them into becoming human on their own rather than expecting everything to be handed to them on a silver plate like the entitled meritless creatures from the other former colonies. Despite emigrating enmasse they still manage to assimilate into countries without sperging out or gathering hatred.

>> No.22005751

>>22005721
The characters are more than just selfish kikes in BM.

>> No.22005762

>>22005750
Nigga 150 years of lost opportunities while European countries advanced in every aspect?
the only reason Indian immigrants assimilate better is cause they are highly educated and come to the west for better job opportunities. On the other hand, spics and arabs are refugees.

>> No.22005796

>>22005762
>Hispanics
>refugees in Europe
???

>> No.22005798

>>22005796
In US

>> No.22005808

>>22005798
You said European countries. The US is in the Americas and Hispanics are regular immigrants for the most part, not refugees. You have no clue what you’re talking about.

>> No.22005814

>>22005808
I said "European countries" in a different sentence
>regular immigrants
More like illegal immigrants from destabilized shitholes

>> No.22005824

>>22005814
They’re not refugees, they’re immigrants.

>> No.22005826

>>22005514
Do they? I have never heard any dedicated leftist praise of the work. It touches on virtually no topics of political interest to a Marxian analysis--the closest thing you really get to a political statement is White very accurately (as history would later illustrate) critiquing the Mexican government as being incapable of actually governing Mexico because of its fundamentally weak institutions.

Aside from that it's largely just a study of the human condition, the nature of evil and an exercise in how long you can go without using any punctuation. I really don't see a political element to it unless you really get into the weed about the Judge's pontifications, which I would argue are more philosophic than truly political.

Perhaps it is simply that it is a very raw depiction of the human condition with a great deal of metaphoric rope with which the aspiring literati may hang himself if he grows weary of the sodomy, murder and desecration of the human body and spirit. Also occasionally McCarthy is actually really funny.

>> No.22005828

>>22005826
https://twitter.com/BlakkBile/status/1650327433365553152

>> No.22005836

>>22005826
>study of the human condition
More like humans evil
There's no exploration. Humans are just inherently violent and they like to do violent shit even when it's not necessary.

>> No.22005839

>>22005514
>no Manifest destiny bad sentiment
Are you legitimately retarded?

The Glanton Gang is a cartoon parody of manifest destiny.

>> No.22005850

>>22005839
And they seem good in comparison to native shenanigans lmao

>> No.22005857

>>22005850
Not really lol

>> No.22005939

>>22005828
To put it simply that is an incredibly bad take. Firstly because Blood Meridian wasn't based on Vietnam but on the very real misadventures of the Glanton Gang, and secondly because no human being reading this novel could possibly come to the conclusion that McCarthy was attempting some biting critique of white people when it's literally a story about a multi-ethnic gang going on a murder spree in Mexico only to discover that everyone is just as monstrous and evil as they themselves are.

I do not think this person read Blood Meridian.

>>22005836
It's an exploration in the sense that it's simply a very stark depiction, and the Judge provides commentary explaining his perception of this behavior.

>> No.22005946

>>22005850
>I may have shit and pissed my pants like Billybob over there...
>But at least MY shoes are clean!

>> No.22005978

>>22005762
European countries degenerated in terms of character. Letting young men jerk off all day would be unacceptable in any era. Indian immigrants somehow manage to be highly educated and get good job opportunities despite the brits leaving them "more retarded" huh. Bit weird how none of the other colonies manage that. Must be that dreadful white magic.

>> No.22006314

>>22005514
>>subtly implies "blacks and natives were just as bad as whites. There was no difference between their circumstances. It's just people randomly killing each other to satisfy their boner. No context"
Actually, it depicts the Glanton Gang as being moderately worse since they culled peaceful tribes, such as the one by the river, and use their scalps for more pay. A lot of times they just scalped whoever for more pay.

>> No.22006506

>>22005514
>no moral or message
Dunno why people like you bother reading at all

>> No.22006857

>>22005564
That's on God to decide, not you.

>> No.22007050

>>22005566
No he's not, you're just an ideologue who only thinks of capitalism, socialism, communism, and other systems as purely "good" or "bad" which Marx tells us not to do.

>> No.22007094
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22007094

>>22005514
I suspect you have a very wide and vague definition of "leftist" to the point of absurdity

>> No.22007130

>>22006857
>That's on God to decide
God doesn't exist with any significant degree of likeliness.

>>22007050
>>22007050
>which Marx tells us not to do
larp

>> No.22007338

>>22007130
>God doesn't exist with any significant degree of likeliness

Then who is the judge of your morality that says the profit motive is amoral? Just you? Well I say I don't give a shit about what you think.