Classical Education

[Anonymous No.21948360]

Does anyone have a chart, or a collection of charts, to suggest that would revolve around necessary works to read for a classical education? I have a handful I can already think of. Obviously starting with the Greeks, the Trivium, and possibly the bigger hits out of the Western Canon. But I'm wondering if there is a specific guide or recommendation that I could use to get the most out of this.

I received a Catholic education and by the time I made it to university I was focused solely on my STEM education. I heavily enjoy reading and I've noticed as I've entered my late twenties and I wonder what I missed out on from an educational perspective, it's on the idea that I only had a general education on the humanities. Most of my relatives and ancestors all received "classical educations" at nice private colleges and I feel that I missed out.

I suppose part of this discussion would be defining what a "classical education" is and how it correlates with literature. Let me know your thoughts.

[Anonymous No.21948365]

Use google, faggot.

[Anonymous No.21948370]

>>21948360
Mortimer Adler was a big proponent of the Western canon; you might enjoy picrel.

[Anonymous No.21948444]

[Anonymous No.21948462]

That’s a tall order and if you want to keep up moment it would be better to start with the main considerations. My recommendations

The 12 must-read humanities works

Plato (complete)
Aristotle (Organon
Aristotle( Metaphysics)
Plutarch (Parallel Lives)
Augustine (City of God)
Aquinas (Shorter Summa)
Descartes (Discourse on Method)
Spinoza (Ethics)
Hobbes (Leviathan)
Hume (An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding)
Kant (Critique of Pure Reason)
Adam Smith (Wealth of Nations)

Literature

The Bible (Robert Alter for OT, Lattimore for NT)
The Iliad (translated by Merrill)
The Odyssey (same)
The Aeneid (translated by Ahl)
The Metamorphoses (translated by McCarter)
The Divine Comedy (translated by Hollander)
Gargantua and Pantagruel (translated by Frame)
Don Quixote (translated by Ormsby)
Shakespeare, complete
Paradise Lost
Faust (translated by Atkins)
Eugene Onegin (translated by Nabokov)

Opera

Mozart: Don Giovanni
Mozart: The Marriage of Figaro
Mozart: The Magic Flute
Rossini: The Barber of Seville
Verdi: Rigoletto
Verdi: La traviata
Wagner: The Ring Cycle (four operas)
Bizet: Carmen
Puccini: Madama Butterfly

Ballet

Adam: Giselle
Tchaikovsky: Swan Lake, The Nutcracker, The Sleeping Beauty
Delibes: Coppélia
Minkus: La Bayadère, Don Quixote
Mendelssohn: A Midsummer Night's Dream
Prokofiev: Romeo and Juliet, Cinderella
Strivinsky: Firebird, The Rite of Spring

[Anonymous No.21948518]

>>21948444
This is fake nonsense so middle class people can feel cultured having “read the classics”. “Why of course sir we will surely teach your child the entire classical Greek canon in one class in one semester!” I can already imagine how it works in reality. “Here little jimmy read these 12 pre selected pages of Plato and a secondary scholarly interpretation. Then right a five hundred word memo about how it relates to Catholic theology. Congratulations you understand Platonism that will 40,000 dollars”

[Anonymous No.21948678]

Start here probably and then look and see if you can find the syllabi of various college courses that your interested in. Make sure to pick up Making it Stick and other note taking or study method books too so you will retain what you read. It’s important that you pick worthwhile books and read them slowly and carefully and elaborate on what you read. Maybe make a zettelkastan note system on your computer that hyperlinks your notes together so you can draw connections or do it the old pen and paper way. Finally try writing papers or memos about what you read in your own words before you look at secondary sources. You can also follow people like Athenian Stranger on Twitter or other real PhD academics and listen to them talk and maybe ask question about things that confuse you after you have thought about it on your own. This is all a lot of work but it’s okay to go slow and treat it as a fun hobby. it will feel like you’re wasting your time if you are only doing this to check off books that you have technically “read”. You should only pursue learning about a topic if you actually enjoy it. Don’t do all of this work if you are simply doing it for mentally ill narcissistic reason so you can tell yourself or others that you’re the kinda of guy who reads important books.

[Anonymous No.21949457]

>>21948444
How do protestants handle the fact that almost all of the important books about Christian theology are Catholic? The Bible itself wouldn't exist without Catholics and therefore is a work of Catholicism.

[Anonymous No.21949464]

>>21948518
>This is fake nonsense so middle class people can feel cultured having “read the classics”
That's all university philosophy courses. The list in that picture at least seems sufficiently nuanced and intensive, unlike most philosophy courses.

[Anonymous No.21950477]

>>21948678
the midwit births an egregore that balloons in size until he finally has a justification as to why he is doing something other than reading

[738 Apostle No.21950694]

>>21949464
Reading those books are fine provided you actually read them closely and think about them. “Reading” all of these in a single year is ridiculous pretension to lie to yourself and others. There is no way anyone would seriously absorb and retain all of Plato in one class in one semester.

[Anonymous No.21950759]

Here's another one, not perfect but pretty good
>>21950694
Probably not, but reading so many great thinkers at such a young age and dedicating so much of one's time to them, even superficially, might lead to a lifelong interest in various topics and a hunger for knowledge along with a passion for reading and intellectual pursuits. Compared to 99% of courses it seems like a great idea.
So what's your curriculum, since the other one fell so flat? Surely you have something to contribute.

[Anonymous No.21950842]

>>21949457
By coping and lying to themselves

[Anonymous No.21950952]

>>21948518
Are you suggesting that upper class people are the only ones with culture simply through the fruits of their wealth?

[Anonymous No.21950958]

>>21948370
>Adler
jew shit.
sus.

[Anonymous No.21950973]

>>21948444
checked. At least it's all White people in the pamphlet. Must be pre-2010.

[Anonymous No.21950999]

>>21950759
>>21948678
This was my suggestion. If I had to teach a bunch of kids it would look something like this.
Elementary education focused on character development lots of exercise and new experiences trying new things. Try to instil curiosity, competition, and virtue basic stuff. Also basic introduction to a second language maybe Latin or French?

Middle school more discipline on focus on learning core subjects Latin, Math, science, Humanities, still a heavy focus on sports and exercise and personal exploration. Support kids forming long term friendships send them out camping or some other team building exercise. Emphasis life affirming world views based on beauty and pursuit of personal excellence and fulfillment. Also all kids should learn basic computer science. Don’t make school an iron prison of school mom harpies. Basically set boundaries but otherwise encourage them to be more and more independent.

High school separate the students based on natural abilities and temperament and base their curriculum around that. Let them switch of course if they have a personal revelation. Emphasis on views of fulfilling your duties to society by deploying your natural talents and place in the hierarchy. Ideas of family formation social connection and spiritual growth. Aggressively push against hedonism, nihilism, materialism, liberalism, and “Social Justice”. Kids that are low iq or low discipline send them to learn trades welding, plumbing, electrician, HVAC anything where they can make good money while being below average intelligence. Black kids who start acting like thugs can be sent straight to jail. Gifted kids should be taught at least one or two languages maybe Latin and Greek. Their curriculum will be focused on learning how to learn on their own.

College again depends on what the kids want to do. However all kids would be required to learn to code or some other marketable skill unless they show genuine talent in some domain. For the humanities the basic process would be working on one great author or book per class and requiring the kids to closely read, write and discuss the book. At the end of the class they would be required to pass an oral examination showing retention of the key points. Study should be mostly self directed ideally with an advisor to point them in the right direction and guide them when necessary.

For regular people my advice is to start by asking yourself why you want to learn about a given topic. If you are driven by a desire to learn or admiration of some scholar you should proceed if you just want to validate your image as a smart guy stop.

If you have the right motivations then start by finding valuable texts above your current understanding and carefully read them taking notes in your own words that explain the core ideas. At the end of the process you should be able to summarize the key problem the author had his main arguments and his sub points. Make connections with other books.

[Anonymous No.21951045]

>>21950999
Part two

Don’t worry about speed or feeling like you are in a competition. It’s better to go slow and retain. Don’t be afraid to reread and go back to the great books again and again. To some extent There is no reading only rereading. Don’t lie to yourself or others that you understand stuff just to impress them. Don’t try to read a bunch of complex books really quickly just to check off an imaginary list that is waste of your time. Make sure not to burn yourself out and enjoy reading good literature as well as non-fiction. Learning should be serious but not torturous. Remember not to live only in books or think books can fix your life you need to go outside and experience the real world. If you stay inside all the time and don’t make an effort to have real human connection and engage in the struggle or life you will regret it. Don’t let books become a psychological defense mechanism for avoiding real life or a substitute. Make sure to eat healthy and get some exercise and sunshine. You don’t have to be a body builder but know there is a mind body connection.

I can’t tell you exactly what books to read because I don’t know you. If you and me had an in person conversation I can evaluate where you’re struggling, what your background is, and what you are interested in and we could go from there.

Mostly your book choices should come from a kind of intuition and drawing towards books that have stood the test of time. You should look for ideas that resonate with you and also books that challenge you and go against your biases. Investigate why you think what you think and what you can learn from people you disagree with. One of the greatest problems with autodidacts is their tendency to hyper fixate a one author or idea at the expense of understanding the subject more broadly. That said once you get more knowledgeable about a topic you can get more niche and maybe look for academic articles on jstore or some place like that.

[Anonymous No.21951094]

>>21950952
Sort of. Rich people historically had the opportunity to send their kids to the best schools and also had immense leisure time to engage in scholarly pursuits. Very few working class people had the chance to engage with culture or even could read. As colleges get more and more expensive it looks like academia will be like that again. However, the bigger problem I see is that middle class and poor people who are not exposed to high culture are self conscious especially conservative types who get brain mogged by liberal professors. They want to mimic what they think of as being a highly educated classical gentleman but this curriculum looks to me to be a simulacra. I don’t see how those kids could possibly absorb and retain all of the depth of these works. You can’t possibly read and think about all of Plato in four months. Probably the teachers will give them a few selections to read and a few memos and they will have forgot everything in a few years. It’s all about the idea of being the kind of person who reads Plato or whose kids read Plato rather then you know actually reading Plato. It’s reading as an identity prop and consumer good.

[Anonymous No.21951149]

>>21951094
I don’t know what rich kids education looks like now probably some gay horse shit about Black trans biopic equity and books written by barren Jewish spinsters. But I know growing up my cousins were all very rich and went to the best private school in the city while I was poor. This combined with not being athletic or good with women encouraged me to craft a narci image of myself as the great intellectual to protect my ego. I realized what I was doing years ago was garbage but I wasted a lot of years playing a part instead and desperately trying to make everyone else believe it. Now I am more comfortable with who I am and pursuing what I care about in college but I still have to watch myself from falling back into old habits.

[Anonymous No.21951278]

>>21951094
Shite book there. Catholic goes to windbag lengths to state Catholicism invented leisure time. Closeted priests are this dumb

[Anonymous No.21951749]

Are there also recommendations for books that not only focus on humanities but also on general scientific fields?
It may sound strange but now when I hit my 30s I understood that I neglected quite a few of subjects and I also barely remember anything from my school program. I want to be an educated person in a sense that I want to be able to retain that information and to have it at my disposal at any time.
Not doing it for the sake of anything but my own desire to be more educated.

[Anonymous No.21952090]

>>21951749
There are loads of them.

[Anonymous No.21952179]

>>21948678
Could whoever have made this chosen books that weren't so expensive?
Anyone got other books/resources that provide the same information as this ones? I'm not spending over $100 on a book when I don't have to.

[Anonymous No.21952194]

>>21952179
>E-Reader and Anna's Archive
there you go. all knowledge should be free.

[Anonymous No.21952205]

>>21952179
I am sure you can find a free pdf somewhere. If not you can find something equivalent most of the time. Simply find a book addressing a similar problem or topic and check on the author to see if they are credible. A simple inspection is pretty easy. Ignore books with unnecessary profanity in the title or cheap looking covers or other Reddit markers. See if other people have reviewed it and what they have say.

[Anonymous No.21952363]

>>21952194
>Anna's Archive
Never seen this one before, thank you.

[Anonymous No.21952665]

>>21951094
>You can’t possibly read and think about all of Plato in four months. Probably the teachers will give them a few selections to read and a few memos and they will have forgot everything in a few years
>therefore it is much better to not read Plato at all
What is better - a course that offers some Plato or one with none?

[Anonymous No.21952929]

>>21948462
There needs to be a general about cultural education with recommendations like this. Great recs, mate.

[Anonymous No.21952987]

>>21952665
You clearly don’t understand the point I am making so I will explain it as simply as I can. Reading book good. Pretending to read book for clout not good. Getting a classical education with real learning and real passion good. Paying $100,000 dollar to “spark a life long love for the classics” and pretending to be 18th century aristocrat not good. Read the Greeks but not as a memetic fetish. Sorry if I am coming across a massive asshole but it took me a long time to realize how I was abusing intellectualism to cope with my own inferiority complexes and narcissism. Don’t make my mistakes!

[Anonymous No.21953109]

>>21952987
>I was abusing intellectualism to cope with my own inferiority complexes and narcissism
you still are
Simple question, simple answer - What is better - a course that offers some Plato or one with none?

[Anonymous No.21953798]

>>21952090
So why not post it?

[Anonymous No.21953810]

>>21953109
Obviously neither are better or worse it all depends on other circumstances. A course that doesn’t teach any Plato is fine if everything else considered it teaches the student something valuable they will retain. Similarly an overview of philosophy or introduction to Plato is okay provided it’s presented well. The problem with the great books format is the framing and culture around it. It’s a total farce an ill conceived catholic reaction against mainstream secular education. Everything about it seems artificial and ultimately about appearances. This isn’t to say mainstream college education is good it isn’t but no university I’ve ever seen would present itself as teaching students the entire classical Greek cannon in freshman year because that’s ridiculous. Students won’t learn anything but the most surface level names and claims if that. These people are paying tens of thousands of dollars for the idea of something not anything with actual substance. It’s like something a person who never went to school imagines college to be.

[Anonymous No.21954857]

>>21948444
>No Epic of Gilgamesh
>studying Plato and Aristotle before pre-Socratics
>studying Plato and Aristotle out of order
>studying Aquinas before Augustine and Avicenna

How difficult is to teach the western canon by CHRONOLOGICAL ORDER? Every work including the Bible has been influenced by previous works and this can be traced back to the beginning of literature therefore you should start at the beginning. It's not rocket science.

[Anonymous No.21954956]

>>21954857
This
>No Epic of Gigamesh before the Bible

ngmi

[Anonymous No.21955423]

>>21948370
>no xenophon
Trash

[Anonymous No.21956896]

>>21948370
Way too much filler

[Anonymous No.21956914]

>>21948360
Marcus Aurelius was a hottie, unless the beard is hiding something. I can see it for Horace too.

[Anonymous No.21957547]

>>21951094
that's a major issue because academia hasn't produced a modicum of worthy information and wisdom in over five decades.

[Anonymous No.21958776]

>>21948444
>>21948462
>>21948678
>>21950759
I am going to combine some of these together into a /classed/ - Classical Education general thread to see if we can form a general /lit/ audited reading list. Naturally there will be some strong and poor suggestions, many will try and turn the discussion towards antisemitism, but I think if we could get something like this going it would be good for the health of the board.

[Anonymous No.21959106]

>>21958776
>many will try and turn the discussion towards antisemitism
Obsessed

[Anonymous No.21959323]

>>21952987
You still seem to be projecting a lot.

[Anonymous No.21959331]

>>21954857
The Epic of Gilgamesh is not really part of the western canon

[Anonymous No.21959693]

>>21959323
I am aware I am not cured merely on the road. My brother I am a sick man but working on it or at least trying to be better.

[Anonymous No.21959793]

>>21957547
Yes it is a problem. The future of intellectualism seems to me to be either the venerable Bebe option or the Bodhidharma option. Either we try to preserve the intellectual heritage of the west in the coming dark age and set up our own small scale groups or we try to move the western tradition to Eurasia. Either way mainstream academia is going to decline hard in the next fifty years or so. It is going to get increasingly unaffordable while declining in quality. The only reason the majority of students go to college now is to get a certification that you have the equivalent of a high school education from the 1950’s. The majority of the professors are stuck in what is basically a cut throat political fight for tenure or a dead end job that pays barely better than minimum wage after a decade of education. In both cases they are in a publish or perish mindset shitting out hundreds of pages of regime approved dreck. Just endless articles about black trans penis, Native American democratic anarcho-communism, Holocaust survivor remembrance, George Floyd hagiography, the need to eat bugs and live in a pod just endless crap. If you don’t believe me just go look at the current American Historical Review. It is going to crash as the demographic profile of the west gets older and the cost benefit value of contemporary education in the humans continues to go down the toilet. Maybe a core of STEM will survive but the humanities are toast. The question is can we build something that can exist outside the system that is sustainable?

[Anonymous No.21960008]

>>21958776
>this going it would be good for the health of the board

I agreed and thanks for this Anon.
This might also be great addition to the list

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Books_of_the_Western_World

[Anonymous No.21960049]

>>21948370
I agree with >>21956896 that there is a lot of filler, but I do think this is a great place to start. Good luck anon.