/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21937272]

Why are ESLs obsessed with grammar? Do they realize that natives break grammatical rules all the time?

[Anonymous No.21937281]

Gotta know the rules to break 'em

[Anonymous No.21937292]

>>21937272
Everyone who learns another language is "obsessed" with grammar, It's how you learn. Have you never learned another language OP?

[Anonymous No.21937294]

>>21937281
Concurred

[Anonymous No.21937309]

>>21937272
>write incorrect grammer
>"DUDE ESL ESL KYS ESL"

[Anonymous No.21937313]

>>21937272
Someone has to write like a non-nigger to keep non-degenerate English alive.

[Anonymous No.21937314]

>>21937292
What I mean is they call you an ESL for not following some arbitrary rule in their textbook to discredit your argument

>Have you never learned another language OP?
I only use grammar resources as a reference guide and learn through immersion/exposure

[Anonymous No.21937318]

>>21937313
Like it or not Nigger English is the norm these days and most people don't have a huge dildo up their stuck up ass to talk like some white dude from the 1800s

[Anonymous No.21937346]

>>21937272
I wish I'd had a single grammar class in my entire k-12 or even beyond education.
But you do make a point. I guess?
I dunno why is someone giving you a hard time there, hoss?

[Anonymous No.21937350]

>>21937318
Well, I will continue using good grammar regardless of the so-called norm.

[Anonymous No.21937354]

>>21937350
There's no such thing as "good" grammar. Languages change.

[Anonymous No.21937355]

>>21937292
>It's how you learn
Nah. It's repetition how you learn a new language. The brain forms only around grammar structures in your early years. Later your brain doesn't actually learn the grammar of other languages and simply has a "lexicon entry" for each single thing. Source: It was revealed to me in psycholinguistic lectures

[Anonymous No.21937360]

>>21937272
ESLs have genuine reasons: ability, work and a teacher that cares.

If you have ever had a competent, caring english teacher, who actually graded properly, you would understand.
Fuck post modernists and their clit lit wanking nonsense.

[Anonymous No.21937363]

>>21937272
Just because we aren't taught grammar anymore doesn't mean it isn't important. They're lucky to have enough grammatical tools to care.

[Anonymous No.21937371]

>>21937354
They degenerate as a civilisation goes into decline and its intellectual classes stagnate, typically into vulgate and creole forms. Change is ipso facto qualitative with regard to complexity, poesy and visual richness, logistic accuracy, and range of expressiveness. Also, ywnbaw.

[Anonymous No.21937376]

>>21937371
Based

[Anonymous No.21937407]

>>21937371
Too many buzzwords
Better yet, go learn old English before it got corrupted by french and norman influence If you care about le purity and complexity

[Anonymous No.21937442]

>>21937272
>t. got assmad about a Mexican correcting his "should of" instead of "should've" mistake
Nigger just write correctly. ESLs expect native speakers to master their own languages

[Anonymous No.21937444]

>>21937407
Cope harder. Nothing there is a buzzword; it's just something basic that has to be repeated for low IQ twitter retards like you.
>go learn old English before it got corrupted by
English likely peaked in the mid-seventeenth century with prose writers like Sir Thomas Browne. Regardless, it's an outright (and commonly regurgitated) fallacy to equate the breakdown of established and signature grammatical structure with prescriptivist purity spiralling, and you don't know what you're talking about.

[Anonymous No.21937445]

>>21937314
Good grammar is arbitrary?
You're on a board for literature. You should be meticulous about grammar.

[Anonymous No.21937453]

>>21937445
Language is primarily concerned with usage, grammar follows thereafter, my good sir

[Anonymous No.21937460]

>>21937272
vast majority of language learners strive to learn languages for career interests
almost all professional settings require you write in accurate, proper formal speak as opposed to jargon and slang and whatnot
to master that level of comprehension, you should possess an intimate knowledge of the grammar
not that hard to figure out

[Anonymous No.21937463]

>>21937444
That's just your pretentious opinion
imo contemporary informal English is SOUL

[Anonymous No.21937466]

>>21937355
>It's repetition how you learn a new language.
That's only the case if you didn't learned the language through study. Most people try to study the language before trying to speak it. If you study the language, the basics is the alphabet, then the grammar, then the words come through practice of the grammar.

[Anonymous No.21937487]

>>21937463
Give an example of contemporary informal English because all I can think when you say this is ebonics bleeding over standard language, New Yorker dialect, Cockney, and hickspeak

[Anonymous No.21937488]

>>21937453
Seeing as how that was an illogical statement, I am not surprised that you think grammar is arbitrary.

[Anonymous No.21937493]

>>21937281
>>21937294
I have an article that decried use of grammar, punctuation, and spelling - making massive use of such errors in the text that it was nearly unreadable. I am going to transcribe it and start memeing it.

[Anonymous No.21937497]

>>21937488
not him but his argument wasn’t “illogical,” just a reach. besides,
>You're on a board for literature. You should be meticulous about grammar.
is just as much of a reach, if not more so. since when does someone on a board for literature have to be meticulous about grammar?

[Anonymous No.21937499]

>>21937355
This isn't true. Eventually you break the barrier and begin processing grammatical rules and abstractions natively in every language you learn, no matter how massively different they are. That's why the benefits to not being a monolingual mongrel are so marked in your brain.

[sage No.21937500]

>>21937463
>zoomer pidgin is soul
Nah, you're just a lower life form. Check these dubs and kys.

[Anonymous No.21937504]

>>21937463
kinda sussy capped take senpai nc frfr desu

[Anonymous No.21937505]

>>21937500
Dubs confirmed.

[Anonymous No.21937508]

>>21937497
I wrote "should be," because proper use of language would, I'd at least presume, be something of focus on a board for literature. What he wrote was illogical, because language does not concern itself with anything, it being a logical structure for the communication of thoughts, with grammar as its framework for complete and orderly expression. An individual who concerns himself with the usage of a language would necessarily be mindful of grammar.

[Anonymous No.21937517]

>>21937508
Turbo Autismo lmao

[Anonymous No.21937528]

>>21937508
>proper use of language would, I'd at least presume, be something of focus on a board for literature
you’re taking this for granted, though. what you’re trying to say is almost like saying anyone on /mu/ should be mindful of scales because “proper use of music theory would be something of a focus for a music board” and that scales represent the framework for music theory’s “complete and orderly expression.” visiting /mu/ shows that that is obviously not the case, with many people putting forth opinions on entire albums that have very little to do with scales or with music theory in general. so why qualify people who visit this board like that when the majority of them are much like the regular /mu/ user, often forming opinions on books without resorting to grammar or language in general?

[Anonymous No.21937562]

>>21937528
I understand your point, but considering the thread topic, I think my aforementioned presumption is pertinent. I also reckon, if those on /mu/ learned how to produce notes on an instrument, or with an electronic interface, and learned music theory, that the board would be that much better, and that they would enjoy themselves more. However, like you say, these are presumptions, and should not be as granted. It is true, that for many, it is preferable to discuss the works of others without so much interest in technical knowledge, but through tastes, opining, interpretations, discourse in the comparisons of these, following "consumption" of the medium, as it were.

[Anonymous No.21937568]

>>21937318
False dichotomy, tranny.

[Anonymous No.21937569]

>>21937463
>imo contemporary informal English is SOUL
it's soulless because it's retarded and mainstream

[Anonymous No.21938035]

>>21937360
Postmodernism is cancer that corrupts and destroys everything. Only a jew or a jew brained golem would take joy in bastardizing perfectly good things, just because he feels like it, and wants to "rebel" against all that is good and orderly.

[Anonymous No.21938041]

>>21937272
Tf is an ESL

[Anonymous No.21938129]

>>21938041
Non American

[Anonymous No.21938145]

>>21937272
Right, so I'm hoping I can get a response ITT after asking a few times with no bite.
When Osama bin Laden was reported killed, John Cena was the first to announce it at some wrestling event. He chose the words, and I quote "we have caught and compromised to a permanent end, Osama bin Laden".

Now, I get what he is saying, but these words: compromised to a permanent end - if an indian was saying this, you would shit on him relentlessly, wouldn't you? It is such an absolutely tortured way to put it to make it seem as tier-1 operator lingo as possible. Very cringe, but isn't it also extremely ESL, if you ignore that it was Cena who said it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo0f_VsP8CA

[Anonymous No.21938149]

>>21938041
"ESL (English as a Second Language) refers to learners who are using English in order to communicate in a second language."

[Anonymous No.21938154]

>>21938041
An American

[Anonymous No.21938162]

>>21938145
I don't get it. What's ESLish about that phrase?
"to an end" is a well known phrase and he creatively attached permanent and compromise to it to bring out the irony

[Anonymous No.21938163]

>>21937272
>natives break grammatical rules all the time?
Yes but only by accident and ESL mistakes tend to follow specific patterns depending on the native language
>confused about time/conjugation
>don’t flip the subject and verb for a question or subordinate clause
>omitting random particles
All of these are genuinely annoying to real English speakers (white people)

[Anonymous No.21938166]

>>21938163
>Yes but only by accident
ESL confirmed

[Anonymous No.21938170]

>>21938162
It's the compromise that does it for me, throws off the entire sentence I think.

[Anonymous No.21938172]

>>21938162
>What's ESLish about that phrase?
It sounds like some kind of belabored technical mumbo jumbo from the military or law enforcement
>the officers approached the suspect with elevated situational awareness, the subject did not comply and the tactical situation became escalated to heightened enforcement measures

[Anonymous No.21938176]

>>21938170
So like compromise can mean either something like striking a deal, but then it should have an object, or it can mean be put into a vulnerable position, which would make slightly more grammatical sense (and also be in line with what he is trying to say), but at that point I just mean, "compromised to a permanent end" is such a tortured way to say what amounts to murdered dead.

[Anonymous No.21938177]

>>21938166
??? Are you complaining about the lack of commas, or are you one of those midwesterner-creoles who thinks it should be “on accident” because that’s how it worked in das Vaterland

[Anonymous No.21938178]

>>21937272
self consciousness

[Anonymous No.21938179]

>>21938172
>It sounds like some kind of belabored technical mumbo jumbo from the military or law enforcement
I find this lingo hilarious, and it's absolutely unmistakable in certain types of communication.

[Anonymous No.21938180]

>>21937508
>What he wrote was illogical, because language does not concern itself with anything, it being a logical structure for the communication of thoughts, with grammar as its framework for complete and orderly expression.

Your usage of the first comma is incorrect. You’re seaprating a dependent clause from the independent when the dependent is not introductory. Please be more meticulous with your grammar.

[Anonymous No.21938183]

>>21938163
>Yes but only by accident
No, their mistakes are due to ignorance mostly. They aren't all typos. Don't even get me started on niggers. you faggots fucked up by validating their disgusting nonsense.

[Anonymous No.21938184]

>>21937562
>I understand your point, but considering the thread topic, I think my aforementioned presumption is pertinent.
Run on. Use a semicolon to combine multiple independent clauses. Pleae be more meticulous with your grammar.

[Anonymous No.21938187]

>>21938162
the phrase is "bring sth to an end." you don't "compromise" things to an end, that's gibberish. why did you say "bring out irony" and not "compromise out irony"?

[Anonymous No.21938188]

>>21938170
That's the point. He's taking a jab at the US government that didn't want to end the war because it was super profitable.

[Anonymous No.21938189]

>>21938184
>Run on
Reddit meme. Chad writers do it all the time. It's not something negative.

[Anonymous No.21938192]

>>21938189
Not an argument. Cope harder, mr. redditor

[Anonymous No.21938195]

>>21938192
>no u
lol faggot

[Anonymous No.21938198]

>>21938195
Again, not an argument. Keep coping

[Anonymous No.21938321]

>>21937444
> it's an outright (and commonly regurgitated) fallacy to equate the breakdown of established and signature grammatical structure with prescriptivist purity spiralling
Could you say more? I'm the furthest from being a prescriptivist but I get very annoyed and look down on others when I see them using "wrong" grammar -- which is an inconsistent position to hold, and I'm not sure how to reconcile these two things in my head.

[Anonymous No.21938341]

>>21938154
>implying Americans try to learn English and autistically care about its grammar

[Anonymous No.21938619]

>>21938145
>that video

[Anonymous No.21938643]

>>21938041
The abbreviation is technically “English as a second language”, but it’s colloquially used to refer to non-native English speakers regardless if it’s their second, third, etc language.

[Anonymous No.21938664]

I see natives complaining more about the grammar

[Anonymous No.21938671]

>>21937355
That's clearly not true. Even though I've learned Russian in my 20s, I can still use its grammar and e.g. can correctly inflect words that I see for the first time in my life (that is, they didn't have to be "stored" as lexicon entries in all of their specific permutations - I generate the permutations myself without having seen and remembering them beforehand).

[Anonymous No.21938688]

>>21937371
>typically into vulgate and creole forms.
Vulgate is simply "common" language, not a specific form of a language defined by any grammatical properties. "Vulgar Latin" was used for Jerome's translation of the Bible which was the standard Bible for a good part of European history. Creoles are used by populations that originally weren't native speakers of the language. You're clearly pulling shit and latinisms out of your ass.

[Anonymous No.21938861]

>>21937272
grammar << logic << rhetoric

Where else do you want them to start, anon?

[Anonymous No.21939119]

>>21938688
Not really, my point in referencing those was that degenerate forms of language exist in response to the anon claiming all languages are qualitatively equal. You'd have to be a massive retard to think Zulu is not inferior to Arabic when, in the former's dictionary, half the words were coined by whites in the 19th and 20th centuries in order to form a functioning society. For example, you couldn't say quantities like a "half" or a "third," just "gibsmedat."

[Anonymous No.21939131]

>>21937272
I was one of the best in my class in English because I read a lot of books. Thing is, I barely know a single grammatical rule and just type what looks good. English is just far too simple a language

[Anonymous No.21939194]

>>21937281
This.

[Anonymous No.21939337]

>>21938861
>grammar << logic << rhetoric
>Where else do you want them to start, anon?
grammar and after dialectic

[Anonymous No.21939512]

>>21937318
This is only true in your country lmao

[Anonymous No.21940926]

>>21939512
The only country where most people speak English as their mother tongue

[Anonymous No.21940934]

>>21937294
lol i didn't know the book of mormon came as a 3 ring binder

[Anonymous No.21940962]

>>21940926
And rapidly decreasing!