[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 19 KB, 387x386, 41DF4048-8328-47A3-9DEF-DC7D79E9FC28.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21926929 No.21926929 [Reply] [Original]

Who’s the best writer and the best novel of the XX century?

>> No.21927095

>>21926929
Proust and the Recherche, or Joyce and Ulysses, depending on what your aesthetic outlook is.
Proust if you're more 'traditional', Joyce if you're more 'avant-garde'.
It can't be Celine because Joyce did it better (though I love Celine too), just like it can't be, say, Mann, because Proust did it better.
People on the more radical fringes of aesthetics, such as minimalists and absurdists, may perhaps prefer Kafka or Beckett, or Finnegans Wake to Ulysses, but these views are somewhat uncommon, I believe.

>> No.21927112

Hemingway and For Whom The Bell Tolls and it’s not even close.

>> No.21927265

>>21927095
>It can't be Celine because Joyce did it better
Delusional. Just framing them both into some avant-garde category (could it possibly be more vague) doesn't prove anything.

>> No.21927273
File: 830 KB, 1198x677, 135373324212.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21927273

>>21926929
Virginia Woolf. To the Lighthouse

>> No.21927272

Rilke and novels don't matter.

>> No.21927301

>>21927095
I'm not saying that Céline surpasses Joyce (I don't have an opinion on that), but it doesn't make sense to put them in the same category.

>> No.21927960

>>21926929
Hemingway and Great Gatsby OR Pynchon and Gravity's Rainbow

>> No.21928032

>>21927095
How did Joyce even manage to compose Ulysses and Finnegans wake? Compared to Dubliners they are so dense and esoteric. Would I have to read one of the many books analyzing the books themselves?
Look I know he had some mental issues but from a literary perspective I see a few main things:
>pack as many references as possible
>change the presentation as necessary
>completely rewrite the story deconstructing everything with literary devices and more
I can understand how the first two could work by reading more and drawing parallels. But the last is so confusing because the sheer amount of ways in which Joyce would deconstruct. Was he looking at literary devices, scansion, rhyme, spelling and more? I can't begin to understand how he approached it other than it was an iterative process that obfuscated how simple each step was, with the final work a marvel.

>> No.21928035
File: 441 KB, 2294x882, james joyce criticism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21928035

>>21927095
>Joyce
kek

>> No.21928047

>>21927272
all that matters is the 4 lb. buttplug lodged in my ass updating biometrics to googazon headquarters

>> No.21928058

There are a lot of really good ones and no great ones.

>> No.21928724
File: 128 KB, 668x1000, flounder.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
21928724

>>21926929
I don't want to outright say that Grass is the best writer or that The Flounder is the best novel, but as far as my tastes go, I would say that this is my favorite twentieth century novel, and I feel comfortable saying it's the best novel I've ever read. Even if you disagree, it at least demonstrates that there are post-War novels which can go toe-to-toe with pre-War novels.
>>21927095
You've either never read Celine, or you've never read Joyce. Maybe you read neither. The same goes for your erroneous comparison of Mann and Proust.
>>21927273
An excellent choice.
>>21928032
Be careful when you suggest that Dubliners is less dense or esoteric than Ulysses or Finnegans Wake because there are many, including me, who would disagree. I have not approached Finnegans Wake, and just from an outsider perspective, I want to say it's his most difficult work. However, I feel that Dubliners and A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man are both more difficult than Ulysses because of how compact they are. As far as how esoteric the works are, I feel that Joyce was far more sly and secretive with his allusions and references in Dubliners than in anything he wrote afterwards.

>> No.21928912

>>21926929
Celine but his pamphlets are better written in regards to style. His writing is at its best when he's ranting. He should've just been an essayist or polemicist. He would've rivaled Nietzsche.

>> No.21929097

>>21926929
Edgar Saltus
Vincent O'Sullivan
HG Wells
AE Russell
George Sterling
Clark Ashton Smith
Algernon Blackwood
Bliss Carman

>> No.21929101

>>21927272
>Rilke
Basic bitch poet

>> No.21929108

>>21927272
>Rilke
Yeah, either this guy or Kafka.
>best novel
Pale Fire

>> No.21929132

>>21928724
No no no I was not trying to argue which story was more esoteric. I mean the writing style. Dubliners reads very easily and yes I can appreciate the references he has in that too.
But I mean how Joyce was able to look at the English language in turn it inside out to a comedic and even awe inspiring effect. I want to know how he approached that challenge to write such a way. Some might be more simple like the Q&A chapter likely inspired by mountains of scientific literature.

>> No.21929229

>>21927095
>>21927265
>>21928724
I have read both Celine (in French), and Joyce.
Celine is first and foremost a stylist who was trying to renovate the French language, and so is Joyce when it comes to the English language and novelistic form.

>> No.21929309

>>21928032
I think a big part migh've been that Joyce was slowly going blind so things like what words sound like became more important to him. Thus you get some of the next-level language use in his two big novels

>> No.21929310

>>21926929
Probably Thoman Mann even though he was a pedo

>> No.21929313

>>21929310
For The Magic Mountain
In my opinion the best writer is maybe Sherwoo

>> No.21929318

>>21929313
For the Magic Mountain.
Best overall writer I might say Sherwood Anderson even though thats not a popular opinion.

>> No.21929324

dh lawrence

>> No.21929332

>>21929324
What about best novel overall? LCL is his best. And I agree he’s way up there.