/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21873421]

Books on
>wanting it to be easy
mindset?

[Anonymous No.21873453]

the ESL is strong in this post

[Anonymous No.21874473]

>>21873421
I literally have brain damage from c-ptsd, Is it wrong for me to want a break from life constantly raping me

[Anonymous No.21874477]

>>21873453
He's not ESL, you are just a newfag. Lurk more retard.

[Anonymous No.21874565]

>>21873421
Ride the Tiger

[Anonymous No.21874569]

>>21874473
Same and I think it's actually over at this point. The walls just kept closing in and now it's finished. God is my only refuge.

[Anonymous No.21874573]

>>21874473
>>21874569
>wanting it to be easy

[Anonymous No.21874578]

>>21874573
Lol that's what I thought at first but we are only human beings. Anything can happen to anybody.

[Anonymous No.21875241]

>>21873421
Camus is a fucking retard if he thinks that.
The struggle itself is only fulfilling if there is an eventual payoff beyond the horizon.
Futility is exactly what drives people insane, it's the one thing people can't cope with.

[Anonymous No.21875274]

David Goggins 10 rules for life: Stay Hard Bitch

[Anonymous No.21875295]

I think the insistence on struggle is a cope for feeling the weight of the struggle, but it’s like Mishima said “only a sick man feels the weight of his coat”.

[Strange Love No.21876065]

>>21875241

>if there is an eventual payoff beyond the horizon

There is. Most just will never get there in time. That aside, duty is its own reward. :)

[Anonymous No.21876079]

>>21873421
no i'm not happy because maybe if its just physical struggle it is fine, but if you are not as smart as other people, then the mental struggle is more painful than pushing rock

[Anonymous No.21876085]

>>21873421
I don't push rocks, I only carry my cross proudly and I'll still smile happily when I'm 6 feet under.

[Anonymous No.21876464]

>>21873453
>boasting about being able to speak only one language

[× I V R I V S × !!GgBWHLRiayD No.21876553]

One tires, and finds, because one pushes; one defines, and retires, because one pulls; one redefines the entirety because one pushpulls.

[Anonymous No.21876599]

>>21873421
> refuses to do any research and asks to be spoonfed
Am I the only one noticing the irony here?

[Anonymous No.21876710]

anything from Rich Piana

[Anonymous No.21877992]

>>21873421
imagine no longer, gentlemen!

[Anonymous No.21878281]

>>21874473
What is c-ptsd and how did you get it?

[Anonymous No.21878300]

>>21875241
yep
the Left is retarded

[Anonymous No.21878324]

>>21878281
Apparently, it means "Complex post-traumatic stress disorder" because we need to complicate things further. You have to be extra 'pecial.
>>21878300
yes.

[Anonymous No.21878428]

>>21878281
White woman's version of PTSD

[Anonymous No.21878703]

>>21876464
>speaking the only one that matters poorly

[Anonymous No.21878738]

>>21875241

Indeed. This guy had poor parents and was in the Paris during ww2 but became famous right afterward and was giving lectures all over the world, won a Nobel prize at 44.Basically doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about.

He was also a commie.

[Anonymous No.21878740]

>>21874578
And anyone can react any way they choose.
Imagine choosing to react pitifully.

[Anonymous No.21878744]

>>21875295
The exact opposite, actually. Only a sick man cannot feel the weight of his coat. Acceptance is what you would promote. Cammel would instead encourage endurance.

[Anonymous No.21878795]

>>21878740
You are 20 years old.

[Anonymous No.21878797]

>>21875241
The payoff can be literally whatever you want it to be:
>30 more minutes of rock pushing
>30 minutes of pushing the rock with the nose
>30 minutes licking the boulder
>etc.
Now you might be thinking "but I don't want to like the struggle of pushing higher!"
But then you realize you basically do that for life no matter what.
Enjoy licking the rock for 30 minutes, that's your personal reward for pushing it.

Now you might be arguing "but I want a good reward, like a [reward you like], or another pleasureable thing that gets me a spike of positive emotions!"
That's licking the boulder.

Do you even know what the telic goals of humanity are?
I do, they're not pretty. Especially if you take a look at the journey required to achieve them and who and where we are now.
Try to think about why you live in a society, what's the point of your life, what's the point of everyone's life.
Who gets to structure it.
You know it too, but you want to ignore it, otherwise you'd know that what Camus say is correct.

[Anonymous No.21878812]

>>21876065
>duty is its own reward
Holy slave morality. Nietzsche was right.
>>21878797
except in life you are pushing a boulder up different hills. You notice how more developed your muscles become and how you master some hills while others still seem impossible. Sisyphus has 0 improvements, 0 accomplishments and 0 payoff. Nothing but eternal futility.
Why can't you people just accept Camus exemplified his point with the wrong analogy? Sisyphus is a horrible example of how hard work itself can be fulfilling because it is nothing but eternal doom. One can only be fulfilled if you at the very least notice small changes or have the promise of small change.
A farmer is content at the end of the day because he was able to harvest his crops, making his suffering worthwhile. He is not content scrapping dirt in a corner while he leaves his field to rot

[Anonymous No.21878819]

>>21878795
>i choose to be powerless
>therefore everyone is powerless

[Anonymous No.21878820]

>>21878812
>Sisyphus has 0 improvements, 0 accomplishments and 0 payoff. Nothing but eternal futility.
You contradict yourself.
You say he has zero payoff, yet you say he will exist for eternity.
???????????

[Anonymous No.21878823]

>>21878820
What the fuck are you talking about?
Existing for eternity while having to repeat a single thing which he'll never complete is his punishment though.

How are you people disagreeing with this? It's LITERALLY the point of the story of sisyphus

[Anonymous No.21878828]

>>21878823
>What the fuck are you talking about?
...the point?
Its SUPPOSED to be a punishment. But cammu realizes that sisyphus has the power to decide whether or not its a punishment, or merely the cost of his reward.

The original point of the story of sisyphus is what cammu is using to contrast his point, you retard.

[Anonymous No.21878840]

>>21878828
And I'm saying Camus is using a terrible example.
Camus isn't making a point about Sisyphus. He is saying that hard work itself is a payoff. He's talking about a healthy mindset that is almost essential to adopt if you don't want to be a depressed fag. Life is hard but life being hard doesn't necessarily imply suffering. Because a hard life can be fulfilling because it was hard.

But to illustrate that he uses a man condemned to an eternal life of futility. Which is just dumb. To find fulfillment in hardship literally requires there to be a light at the end of the tunnel.

Again, it is well established in psychology that the feeling of futility is one of the biggest causes of being unable to cope with hardship

[Anonymous No.21878852]

>>21878812
>Nothing but eternal futility.
It was a punishment given to him to teach him a lesson, not just that, but with his punishment he was rewarded with eternal life.
His state of mind isn't static, so it doesn't matter what you think it is, it's not eternal futility, because as long as the mind is allowed freedom, it will find ways to cope, not just that, but his tale can teach everyone about plenty of things.
Ultimately, who fails to see purpose is you because you are too focused on the negatives, but both Hades and Sisyphus know that there's a point to pushing the boulder up the hill.
You are simply blind to the truth of the human condition and nature.
Futility and insanity are the main reasons why we keep on going, masked under the many faces of delusions of worth and value to fit our little world views.
What does your or anyone's life and decisions even amount to in the grand scheme of things when we take an objective look at the universe we inhabit? So far, they don't matter at all.

>A farmer is content at the end of the day because he was able to harvest his crops
The agent of life is happy to live, even in his own futility.
>He is not content scrapping dirt in a corner while he leaves his field to rot
You aren't describing insanity, this is just common stupidity. But what if scrapping dirt in a corner while he left the field to rot allowed him to make more money and buy a better life? Perhaps via internet clout, a bet, a scam system, or something you forgot to account? Life isn't a false dilemma in which you are only allowed two options, it's mainly casuality rewarding randomness, and this ends up forgotten in ordely manmade systems made to reward everyone the same.
You could do everything right and still starve to death, and you could do everything wrong and still have someone else provide for you.
The only thing you can control is the pleasure you can derive from what you like doing.

Final note about slave morality:
All humans are born slaves to the law of casuality.
The righteous man: the master, he's as much of a slave as the slave himself.
The masters of mankind don't care about mankind, they only care about ascension and divinity while following the same principles of the slave of the boulder and stepping over the piles of corpse they've ammassed in Tartarus.
So should a master truly be a master? Is a master even a master?
The goal should be to collaborate and help each other out, not to hold ideals and resources over people.

[Anonymous No.21878871]

>>21878840
>He is saying that hard work itself is a payoff
...no hes not. Hes saying that you can choose to consider hard work itself a payoff. There is a very big difference between those two statements. You understand that right?

Cammel uses an extreme to illustrate an extreme idea, the only reason its not a perfect example is because it filters retards who hear worss like eternity and shit their pants. Once you actually understand krampus' point, you see that it perfectly illustrates the absurd power of self control.

>Again, it is well established in psychology that the feeling of futility is one of the biggest causes of being unable to cope with hardship
And camry says just stop feeling like your efforts are futile. Find the end in the beginning.

[Anonymous No.21878872]

>>21878852
Okay I'll admit it's been since my teens since I read about Sisyphus so I might have been mistaken about its intended meaning.

>Futility and insanity are the main reasons why we keep on going, masked under the many faces of delusions of worth and value to fit our little world views
>What does your or anyone's life and decisions even amount to in the grand scheme of things when we take an objective look at the universe we inhabit? So far, they don't matter at all.
while I ultimately agree with this. It's also a psychological fact that cumulative defeat and failure causes people to give up due to the feeling of futility. People cling to small victories to give their actions meaning.
Most people go through life without measuring their life against the 'futility' of life and the eventual meaninglessness of their actions.

I guess what I'm saying is that from a philosophical perspective what you're saying makes total sense but from a psychological perspective the experience of futility if experienced too much in a small window of time destroys their risilience.
you even agree with this by saying;
>Life isn't a false dilemma in which you are only allowed two options, it's mainly casuality rewarding randomness
How meaningless rewards are does not really weigh on most people. To them, the meaningless reward is everything.
Your comment on slave morality also shows how focused you are on the philosophical while forgetting the psychological. Who is a slave and who is a master lies in attitude. Nietzsche deeply believed in being a master over your own destiny, despite acknowledging the ridiculous randomness of life

[Anonymous No.21878873]

>>21878852
Unphathomably based post

[Anonymous No.21878876]

>>21878871
Like I replied to the other guy, I might be wrong about what the Greeks intended with Sisyphus' story. I haven't read it in a long time so maybe I was wrong to shit on Cumbrus for using his particular example.
But I still find it a bit of a weird idea. I'll have to reread the story.

[Anonymous No.21878878]

>>21878703
just a reminder that as long as a literal retard can speak his second language at a communicative level, he's more literate than any fag who only speaks one

[Anonymous No.21878879]

>>21878872
>I guess what I'm saying is that from a philosophical perspective what you're saying makes total sense but from a psychological perspective the experience of futility if experienced too much in a small window of time destroys their risilience.
What defines too much? Cammus point is that you do.
And the science reflects this. It is well known that an individuals mental fortitude is directly related to their ability to decide what is and what is not futile effort. And that the people most susceptable to despair are the people who do not bother self actualizing.

[Anonymous No.21878882]

>>21878876
It is indeed an outrageously weird idea. I for one deny cambels final assertion that one musnt find inherent meaning outside of ones self.

Rather i take it a step farther and assert that one, by merely existing, must neccessarily exert inherent meaning onto the world around them. And that the distinction between the self and the external world is purely causal and SHOULD have no bearing on an individuals self actualization. To create is to become.

[Anonymous No.21878899]

>>21878879
Risilience is built though. This is why bullied children often become losers for life. Their will was destroyed. But I get that's not the point you are making.

But I think I agree with you. I got the impression you were arguing the opposite. I thought you were making the argument that because any reward is as meaningless and futile as no reward in the grand scheme of things, there is never any meaning to anything.
But if I understand you correctly you're saying that even while acknowledging the futility of almost all actions, people can still master their own spirit and become happy through exactly because they are able to see life for what it is and struggle nonetheless?

Honestly I've struggled hard with that question for years now. I was quite depressed because of it for couple years. While that's gotten better I still fall back into a depressive period of a couple weeks sometimes because I question if all my effort really has meaning at all, even if I do have payoffs.
I think I kind of grasp the idea philosophically, I just can't really reconcile it with my own life.

>>21878882
what I typed above is a reply to you too.
I've only read the stranger from Camus but didn't really get the idea that his point is that we have to find meaning outside ourselves?
His whole philosophy in that booked seemed to suggest the opposite? That the randomness of life demands apathy towards it. While that may be logical, I find it inhumane.

[Anonymous No.21878923]

>>21878899
>what I typed above is a reply to you too.
Heh

Anyways yeah, resiliance is built. Camcorders philosophy concerns the what and why, not the how. Philosophy really doesnt deal with how, when it does it passes over into the realm of ideology.

>I thought you were making the argument that because any reward is as meaningless and futile as no reward in the grand scheme of things, there is never any meaning to anything.
Oh, no, god no. Im sorry, if i had realized you thought that i would have tried to be more clear.

>But if I understand you correctly you're saying that even while acknowledging the futility of almost all actions, people can still master their own spirit and become happy through exactly because they are able to see life for what it is and struggle nonetheless?
The only correction i would make is that, rather than BECAUSE they are able to see life for what it is, its in spite of being able to see life for what it is. Even if you cant see life for what it is, you are still capable of mastering your own spirit and becoming happy regardless of what happens to you. In fact seeing life for what it is, while providing greater potential for personal growth, makes it harder to "master your own spirit". Consider the fool, and the jester.

>I think I kind of grasp the idea philosophically, I just can't really reconcile it with my own life.
Naturally, thats the blight of philosophy. It provides you with a wealth of perspective, but no sights to buy.
Caramel say, all you can see is a sight. Indeed your depression is in and of itself a form of happyness. Youre experiencing something that only you can experience. Dont hate it, suffer it if you must, but in the end dont forget to be thankful for the experience.

>but didn't really get the idea that his point is that we have to find meaning outside ourselves?
Yeah thats me, not camaro.
>His whole philosophy in that booked seemed to suggest the opposite? That the randomness of life demands apathy towards it. While that may be logical, I find it inhumane.
Weird, he must have just forgotten to put the crowning resolution to his philosophy in that book.

[Anonymous No.21878925]

>>21878899
>didn't really get the idea that his point is that we have to find meaning outside ourselves?
Musnt. I said musnt. I said that cammu doesnt say we have to find meaning outside oursleves.

[Anonymous No.21878947]

>>21878925
>Musnt. I said musnt. I said that cammu doesnt say we have to find meaning outside oursleves.
oh makes sense
t. ESL
>>21878923
Caramel say, all you can see is a sight. Indeed your depression is in and of itself a form of happyness. Youre experiencing something that only you can experience. Dont hate it, suffer it if you must, but in the end dont forget to be thankful for the experience.
I have actually experienced that feeling on many occasions. The idea that my life is truly my own, even if it is often shitty, is a comforting thought. But even that I second guess often with questions of free will and environmental determinism.

[Anonymous No.21878975]

'I made life shit on purpose' - God

[Anonymous No.21879017]

>>21878975
'Thanks bro, I appreciate it' - chad

[Anonymous No.21879029]

>>21878947
>But even that I second guess often with questions of free will and environmental determinism.
Good, that means you realize just how unique and absurd your experiences are.

[Anonymous No.21879075]

>>21873421
What makes you think "wanting" is what matters here.
Think about this.
If life defaults to easy people can EASILY make it harder.
If life defaults to hard well then it becomes HARD to make it easier.
It's not the same situation so long as you accept difficulty is a linear concept which most people do.
There is no reason why someone who wants life to be hard should also be in favor of punishing those who don't.
Ergo there is no reason why someone who wants life to be easy should be punished at all except in the event that no human is in control and thus the "want" is wholly irrelevant.

[Anonymous No.21879226]

>>21879075
How you got to punishment is fucking beyond me. This might be the most schizotypal post itt.

[Anonymous No.21879258]

>>21879226
The logic is pretty simple I don't know if I can explain it any better.
If you want life to be hard then you actually want life to be easy (because it's easy to make an easy life harder).
Thus everybody having an easy life is a utopian situation where everybody gets what they want.
If you don't want this then logically you want people who want an easy life to suffer i.e. be punished for wanting an easy life.
But why would you want this when there is a perfect utopian option you could just as easily choose? It would simply be an illogical cruelty to want this.
The only reason this would not be the case is if humans had no choice at all in which case what they want no longer matters.

[Anonymous No.21879275]

>>21879258
No, retard, how did you get to punishment. OP is talking about the
>wanting it to be easy
Meme

Are you equating disdain or disgust for someones words or actions to punishing them?

>But why would you want this when there is a perfect utopian option you could just as easily choose?
...because you want to grow? You do realize that utopia is stagnant, right?

[Anonymous No.21879323]

>>21879275
>Are you equating disdain or disgust for someone's words or actions to punishing them?
I mean isn't that generally the basis for punishing someone? Disdain and disgust are, just like all emotions, biologically motivated. Emotion, biology, and morality all become linked together in this sense. A neurotypical person feels disgust at something like murder for this reason and thus it becomes a crime worthy of punishment.

>...because you want to grow? You do realize that utopia is stagnant, right?
Why? To what end? By definition a utopia would meet the needs of everyone. In a true utopia you would feel the exact same sense of growth that is possible now. Do you think growth in a utopia would be different than it is anywhere else? Growth to some extent is inescapable yet also an illusion of sorts.

[Anonymous No.21879347]

>>21874473
Yes. It is. It's easy for normalfags to embrace their suffering, because they can't even concieve the suffering of the neuro-atypical.
Embrace yours anon, and you'll find God.

[Anonymous No.21879351]

>>21875241
The struggle itself is the reward.

[Anonymous No.21879430]

>>21879323
A neurotypical person also feels disgust at something like foot fetishists, that doesnt mean they think they should be punished.

You made a very large leap, next time please make sure to lead your post to the direction you want it to go instead of just teleporting there.

>you would feel the exact same sense of growth
Not even remotely true but something tells me you cant be educated out of your ignorance. There would be no growth in a utopia, period. Its the end goal, the last chapter, the final solution.

[Anonymous No.21879433]

>>21879351
But why?
A reward is something you enjoy. If you don't enjoy struggling then how can it be a reward?

[Anonymous No.21879448]

>>21873421
>wanting it to be easy
This reminds me of antinatalism. Are you saying parents have kids against their will? In other words, parents are taking the harder path? Why? And what does that say about feelings about kids?

[Anonymous No.21879487]

>>21879430
>A neurotypical person also feels disgust at something like foot fetishists, that doesn't mean they think they should be punished.
I don't think this is necessarily true but I don't see how this is relevant at all either. The point is not what people can potentially feel disgust at it's that disgust is the natural precursor to punishment. This just seems like random whataboutism.

>Not even remotely true but something tells me you cant be educated out of your ignorance. There would be no growth in a utopia, period. Its the end goal, the last chapter, the final solution.
On what basis? You're the one who's not explaining anything here. A utopia is by definition a perfect society. If your desire is to feel growth then in a perfect society you would feel it. Otherwise it wouldn't be perfect would it? This is exactly what makes it the end goal. It's that it fulfills all your desires no matter what.
I think your misconception here seems to be that there must be some flaw or bad conditions in order to experience growth. But the simple reality is that growth occurs the most under good conditions. A tree doesn't grow without water and sunshine, a city doesn't grow when it's poor and corrupt, and a person doesn't grow when they're just being beaten down by life. People grow because they choose to grow not because they are forced to.

[Anonymous No.21879539]

>>21879487
>A utopia is by definition a perfect society.
What a surprise, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

[Anonymous No.21879572]

>>21879539
I guess neither does every dictionary apparently.
Words don't just mean what you want them to mean anon.

[Anonymous No.21879649]

>>21879572
>perfect conditions
I enjoy watching you trip over your own feet.
Hint, what is the etymology if utopia.
Its not ou-koinonía

Utopias are perfect places, and are quite commonly depicted as having a less than stellar society.

The reason being, you cannot create the perfect place without an authoritarian society.

[Anonymous No.21879697]

>>21879649
Anon what does any of this matter
When was anyone ever talking about the practicalities of creating a utopia in real life
You've literally just hyper-fixated on someone using the word "Utopia" once as part of a typical hypothetical thought experiment i.e. the usually situation where this word is invoked probably because you didn't want to engage with any actual arguments or the point of this whole damn thread
Okay you admit that Utopia is defined as a perfect society now move on

[Anonymous No.21879700]

>>21876553
>pushpulls
i am in no mood to listen to your jelqing nonsense, tripfag

[Anonymous No.21879802]

>>21879697
>no, i dont like your argument. Youre not allowed to make that argument anymore, move on.

[Anonymous No.21879843]

>>21879802
Talking about stuff nobody else cares about is not making an argument
You're just being difficult for no reason
Again what does any of this have to do with the point of the thread

[Anonymous No.21879852]

>>21879843
Says the man who made the most schizphrenic response to the OP that one could possibly make. I see you, dont worry.

[Anonymous No.21879867]

>>21879852
yes yes anon everyone who disagrees with you is just a schizo

[Anonymous No.21879878]

>>21873421
Anyone who agrees with the 'wanting it to be easy' meme has never actually suffered.