/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.21845087]

I've disavowed this book. I've stopped believing in all "2 more weeks" doomer propaganda. I've accepted that the issues of the 21st century are not design flaws, they're features. They're here to stay and I have to live with it. I suggest you stop coping and do the same.

[Anonymous No.21845101]

Classical liberalism, as such, is already over. It ended with the advent of social media and the mass surveillance state. Do you really think Voltaire or Rousseau would support the world we live in right now?

[Anonymous No.21845104]

>>21845087
When Russia defeats NATO traditionalism will triumph. Homo-hohols can't stand up to ortho-chads. Don't believe the (((media)))

[Anonymous No.21845108]

>>21845101
All of the founders of the modern world would kill themselves at the sight of our society today. But you're giving them too much credit by absolving them of responsibility. The system we have is still absolutely liberal even if it betrays the intentions of its founders. Liberalism is a foundationally evil, incoherent ideology and they set the seeds for its implosion into state terror and decay. The book goes into great detail about this, I just disagree that this system will be going away any time soon.

[Anonymous No.21845122]

>>21845108
>I just disagree that this system will be going away any time soon.

It's going to have to be forced to go away.

In particular, liberalism's strength as a system is tied to American hegemony. So to do away with liberalism one is going to have to do away with the United States.

I'm surprised at how very few people are willing to come to that conclusion. Deneen himself seems unable to come to it. But I see no other way. The United States is inescapably a liberal polity, and liberalism's strength is tied to America's strength.

And you can't make America illiberal without it ceasing to be America. If the United States became illiberal, it would not be the United States any more, but something else.

[Anonymous No.21845170]

>>21845122
I would agree with you, but the problem is how hegemonic liberalism is. American culture is utterly dominant among the world’s youth. Even if America loses its power geopolitically, liberal values deeply ingrained within every person raised on the Internet. Liberalism is largest the religion of the modern world and it will manifest wherever there is technology and material development, it's not just about political power. The Internet is now its life force and America still runs it. Even if the West falls one day, it will live on in other cultures and in other countries.

[Anonymous No.21845176]

>>21845104
I predict a Rambo like tirade when Russia gets btfo

>the war isn’t over!! The war is never over!!

[Anonymous No.21845178]

>>21845170
I disagree. If the United States suffers a defeat, one that breaks the nation beyond repair, liberalism will lose some of its appeal.

It will probably have some relation to religion. Religion seems to be the one thing that can beat liberalism, given that the most illiberal states are either Islamic or Jewish (Israel).

[Anonymous No.21845193]

>ends your history

[Anonymous No.21845499]

>>21845101>>21845108

the republic is tool to base the society on commerce. The republic as a tool to empower the people is propaganda by the merchants and bureaucrats to take power over the monarchy.
An assehole like voltaire said explicitly that freedom is only found in commerce and nothing else. Ie it's classical liberalism ie exactly what we have now: the ruling class is the bureaucrats and their merchants and their goal is to put the bourgeoisie on top of the military, on the popery , on the monarchs.

[Anonymous No.21845505]

>>21845087
>the issues of the 21st century are not design flaws, they're features
LIFE IS PAIN, I HATE
IM ENDING IT NOW

[Anonymous No.21845509]

>>21845499
This is probably a big reason why Catholics are always anti-liberal/illiberal. Even the left-wing ones have critiques of liberalism.

Frankly, if there's anything that takes down liberalism it's probably going to be the Catholic Church. They did already take down communism. The question is, who will be liberalism's John Paul II? It's definitely not going to be Francis.

[Anonymous No.21845517]

>>21845087
>I've accepted this cage and it is eternal
What a spineless specimen. Do they have you on medication? Well there's covert toxicologies pumped into people too, but do try to break out of the programming.

[Anonymous No.21845568]

>>21845178
>If the United States suffers a defeat, one that breaks the nation beyond repair, liberalism will lose some of its appeal.
This. Trannyfaggotry ws set back 1500 years by the fall of the Roman Empire. Until America rebuilt the Roman Empire, nobody dared suggest legalizing faggot marriage because everyone else would say "HAHAHAHAHHA!!! DONT YOU REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO THE ROMAN EMPIRE?!?!"

After America is destroyed, faggot marriage will be outlawed worldwide and for the next several hundred years if anyone dares to suggest legalizing faggot marriage, everyone will say "HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! DON'T YOU REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO AMERICA?!?!?!"

[Anonymous No.21845572]

>>21845193
>why don't you go multipolar my shoes, hippy

[Anonymous No.21845585]

>>21845122
Doing away with the American hegemony doesn't do away with the dynasties who own America, who also own the rest of the world through their banks which loan out to governments at interest. It will not be "forced to go away," there is clearly nothing great enough left in this world to kill it, the warrior and revolutionary spirit has faded away. History is over.

[Anonymous No.21845667]

>>21845585
>there is clearly nothing great enough left in this world to kill it

Oh ye of little faith.

[Anonymous No.21845698]

>>21845101
Who cares what faggot theorycels have to say about anything.

[Anonymous No.21845725]

>>21845568
The garbage you see posted on /lit/.

[Anonymous No.21845993]

>>21845087
>I've disavowed this book
Are you me? I remember reading it years ago. Ever since I slowly intuited that liberalism, as a the guiding worldview for much of the world for over two centuries, is basically vanishing in the modern west, mostly for the reason that it being a victim of its own success. The iron law of oligarchy has devastated it. Personally, I am glad this outdated worldview is being replaced, even if it did lead to some material positives for the world. Perhaps now we will be able to get back to what is real and essential.

[Anonymous No.21846913]

bump

[Anonymous No.21846976]

>>21845104
When the world capital of abortion and child porn wins, then we will have tradition?

[Anonymous No.21846998]

>>21845993
get back to what? a surveillance state run by country-less bankers and corporations?

[Anonymous No.21847140]

>>21845087
Caesarism is coming.

[Anonymous No.21847187]

>>21846976
I have a hard time understanding anyone who thinks Russia is somehow traditional and holds "Christian values" when it's one of the major world hubs of illegality and according to anyone who's free to speak about it, extremely corrupt.
I assume it's just an attempt at coping, like, hey the West sucks fucking dick, maybe China is better, or maybe Russia is better; the truth is that the whole world has turned into a gigantic shithole and society and the quality of life across the whole world will grind down to dismal 3rd world standards no matter where you are. Some countries will die earlier, some later, but there's no hope anywhere, things are just inexorably going to shit and we'll have to live it in full in our lifetimes unless you're a boomer. Boomers are also still confident that things will be all right so they're going to use every shred of their agency to drive things to shit further and further for everyone afterwards. It's just over, it's fucking over bros. China won't save you, Russia won't save you, it's all over.

[Anonymous No.21847199]

>>21845104
Russia is liberal though.

[Anonymous No.21847357]

>>21845087
While the cracks in classical liberalism are now too large to ignore, progressive liberalism will continue its forward march. American conservatism only has political power because the electoral college rigs it so. This will not last.

[Anonymous No.21847378]

>>21845087
The problem is not liberalism itself, but what it will bring forth.
I've come to realize that anyone who doesn't come to appreciate liberalism, has no actual clue what awaits us.

[Anonymous No.21847764]

>>21845193
>Iranian youth are secular atheists
>Russia is poor and incompetent
>China not that adversarial, doesn't export its political system anywhere else
>Muslim countries slowly liberalizing
>LGBT keeps growing
>hundreds of millions of children will be raised on TikTok in the coming generations
>No escape from our cosmopolitan nightmare

[Anonymous No.21847796]

>>21845087
Good first step, next read this for how liberalism has sort of succeeded in many ways but still fails.

[Anonymous No.21847812]

>>21845101
Classical liberalism ended in the 19th-20th century when every last liberal democracy incorporated a huge raft of socialist policies. Universal education, universal adulthood sufferage, no child labor, universal pensions, government healthcare (huge even for the poor and old in US). Liberalism was contradicted by the huge inequality that existed at the time of the French Revolution. It has to sublated socialism to survive.

Likewise, it sublated nationalism to create a group identity and source of "common cause" that would allow the public to support socialism.

Republicanism was international like Marxism when it first started. France set up sister republics everywhere early in the Revolution. It became based in nationalism and identity later.

Classical liberalism fails by only looking negative freedom not reflective reflexive freedom.

[Anonymous No.21847826]

>>21845087
>I've accepted that the issues of the 21st century are not design flaws, they're features
You're right. The issues are the inevitable result of liberal ideology, only by actively combatting liberalism can we ever hope to get rid of it. Stop being a pessimistic coward and fight for what you believe in.

[Anonymous No.21847844]

>>21847812
>Universal education
We're on our way to shutting down the child gulags. Don't be a doomer!
https://richardhanania.substack.com/p/conservatives-win-all-the-time

[Anonymous No.21847852]

>>21847796
But if you really want to know where we are heading, then you have to grind your way through pic related, it isn't easy.

But there is a reason why the big names (Honneth, Fukuyama, etc.) throw their hands up at everything that has been done since and come back to this book as their foundation.

[Anonymous No.21847987]

>>21845104
Kill yourself, asiatic cock sucker

[Anonymous No.21848003]

>>21847852
Hegel is just fascism without the racism/exclusion of minorities and with more political rights (basically with something like the US Bill of Rights limiting the state on free speech, property rights, etc.) And the legislature has real power since the monarch is just a figure head rubber stamp.

But the corporatism is there for sure. And maybe it's not a militaristic state but it isn't pacifist either. Hegel just says "lol, can't stop wars, better be prepared. And hey it is good for patriotism for people to have to defend themselves and so let's train for war."

The liberal ideal is passivism even if there are still times we have to fight for it. It's equality. It's freedom to do what one desires so long as it isn't going to infringe someone else, not Hegel's bullshit of society having to help sculpt people into a mold where they fit in. Why do we need to be developed and tutored into a certain way to be, an ideal man? Can't we decide what an ideal man is?

Behind the dense prose is a dude who fapped to ancient Greece into adulthood and, simply, a fascist, even if a nicer one. He isn't the most noxious, but also not what liberalism is or should try to be. Then it wouldn't be liberalism.

[Anonymous No.21848012]

>>21848003
Brainlet post

[Anonymous No.21848049]

>>21848003
Complete mischaracterization of Hegelian philosophy and its relationship to fascism and liberalism. Hegelian philosophy is a complex and nuanced system of thought that cannot be reduced to a simplistic equation of fascism minus racism plus political rights. While it is true that Hegel believed in a strong state, he did not advocate for fascism or corporatism, which are characterized by authoritarianism, nationalism, and suppression of individual liberties. He emphasizes the importance of individual freedom, but not in the same way as liberalism. And Hegel believed that individuals are shaped by their social and historical context, and that freedom is not the absence of social constraints but rather the ability to act in accordance with one's own rational nature. This view is different from liberalism, which emphasizes the importance of individual rights and the limitation of state power. He does not advocate for militarism or war as an ideal, but rather recognizes the reality of conflict and suggests that it can be a means for individuals and societies to develop and progress. The idea that Hegel is just fascism without the racism/exclusion of minorities and with more political rights is a misrepresentation of Hegelian philosophy. Hegel's ideas are complex and nuanced and cannot be reduced to a simplistic equation.

[Anonymous No.21848424]

>>21848049
hi chatgpt

[Anonymous No.21849683]

bump why the hell don't these threads do well anymore

[Anonymous No.21849698]

>>21849683
I don't think a single person has read the book for one, they just have a vague idea of the book and then discuss what they think it says. We have had good and bad threads about this book before, and this is one of the bad ones. The OP should've tried to steer conversation around points that Deneen makes that he thinks are worth discussing so other people can relate that to what they've read. Without anybody doing that, it's basically just a free for all of people discussing completely random shit that vaguely has to do with what they think the book is about.

[Anonymous No.21850188]

>>21848049
Hegelian diarrhea is mental masturbation by a bourgeois humanists desperate to pass humanism as progress and freedom and being on the right side of history.

[Anonymous No.21850194]

>>21847812
>>Classical liberalism ended in the 19th-20th century when every last liberal democracy incorporated a huge raft of socialist policies.
No the same people who created classical liberalism are the people who created new liberalism, ie bureaucrats and merchants, ie the bourgeoisie.

[Anonymous No.21850199]

>>21846998
Didn’t Montesquieu advocate something like that?

[Anonymous No.21850207]

>>21845104
Russia is as a Liberal of a Democracy as they come. It's still running on a constitution literally written by USAID

[Anonymous No.21850374]

>>21845499
The spirit of the Republic must be cleansed in an all-consuming fire; the same white fire of starlight that caught and gleamed on the golden eagle-standards of Caesar and Cincinnatus, a fire that will purge the bloated and corpulent flesh of the federal republic from the sacred bones of the constitution so that it may be reborn. This same fire burns white in the marrowbones of all patriots; its embers crackle in dark hearts and its sparks leap from their tongues. The day has come for a nation renewed by holy fire: it was said, long ago, is not victory heavens promise to the righteous? The tree of liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants and fed with the fecund ash of the old, lest it consume only filth and poison: what fruit grows from such a poison tree? Virtus, probitas, iustus; seed, tree, fruit. The Republic is not the fœderati; the republic is not the senatus nor the legiones. It is not bureaucrats in gilded chambers and it is not mandates from an imperial throne. The Republic is the dream that dwells in the hearts of the small and just: it is the vision that springs from the hands of the right and mighty: it is the fire that burns eternal in the virtuous soul. The west, they say, is the empire of lies and enmity. And it is, oh citizen; it is. The day has come for the spirits of fire to set poison trees alight. God in his infinite mercy cursed man with knowledge of divine truth, for man alone on the face of a shadowed earth may know virtue; and from virtue proceeds civilization; and from civilization proceeds the ideal civilization, the culmination, the ecstasy of pure starlight in the eye of a gold eagle standard: the Republic. The ideal form, the sought-after perfection, a monument to human dreams; a dream of the better tomorrow, a dream of the best today, and a dream of a glorious and beautiful history. Burn all they have set in their shrines and their seditions. Red sun rise and red sun sets in the smog-filled sky of the new american century!

[Anonymous No.21850473]

>>21845087
>I've stopped believing in one side's propaganda and started believing in the other side's propaganda

Good work anon
You've really found a place for yourself in life

[Anonymous No.21850476]

What is this guy's thesis on "why liberalism failed"? Give me the short version.
I'm going to assume it's some cuckservative centrist reason, and like all other boomer political scientists, refuses to mention the nigger elephant in the room or jews controlling everything. Until people have the balls to finally start admitting the real problems, literally nothing will get solved and it's pointless to read books like this. Just work out and read stem stuff.

[Anonymous No.21850503]

>>21845087
>I've disavowed this book. I've stopped believing in all "2 more weeks" doomer propaganda. I've accepted that the issues of the 21st century are not design flaws, they're features. They're here to stay and I have to live with it. I suggest you stop coping and do the same.
This. The defining importance of the 1900-1950 s is proving to man that they are only animals incapable of forging the world into a shape they desire. The ultimate definitions of both Communism and Fascism is the rationalistic belief that men can be and do better.

If you want to know why the modern world is so spiritually devoid: there. It's because all the questions have been asked and none have had adequate answers—and yet, in the words of a neoliberal-cum-Galileo, "And yet the numbers still go up." No one bothers to try to do anything of lasting artistic meaning because they know it's pointless. We're living in the last throes of some cosmic cocoon, shaking off the still adhering dross of our own wretched civilisation quite unbeknownst to us, whilst preparing for its own entry into the world. The trumpets of doom have uttered their final peal but the sound hasn't yet reached us yet.

[Anonymous No.21850505]

>>21847187
>the whole world has turned into a gigantic shithole and society and the quality of life across the whole world will grind down to dismal 3rd world standards no matter where you are
You have no perspective, get off the fucken internet, quick. Go do something in the world.

[Anonymous No.21850544]

>>21850503
This pretty much, minus the doomer bullshit.

The idea that humans can manipulate nature to their will is just more peak human hubris and arrogance, and is the root cause of all human problems.
You are wrong though that this is going to lead to bad things. Nature always wins anon. We are entering a new golden age of enlightenment. AI will unironically save humanity. It's going to be the printing press and the internet times a bazillion.

[Anonymous No.21850560]

>>21845087
>I've accepted that the issues of the 21st century are not design flaws, they're features. They're here to stay and I have to live with it.
Okay, but this is also what Deneen is saying. The point of the novel was that it's a feature, not a bug of old conservatism etc.

[Anonymous No.21850570]

>>21850505
>just bury your head in the sand! do something to distract yourself from the economic abyss that is steadily growing as humanity grapples with the inevitability of finite, unrenewable resources!
Can't lie though, it is funny that there are people as blind as you still running around, who just for some reason think that every problem humanity faces is a matter of putting some duct tape over it and pretending it's ok.

[Anonymous No.21850572]

>>21845087
>>21850503
>>21850544
Surely you can see that this is a self fulfilling prophecy though.
The objective of any system of control is not to force you to do anything but to convince you that there is nothing else you can do. My way is the only way. That is what control really is.
The moment that you accept there is no alternative is the moment when it actually becomes true.

[Anonymous No.21850574]

>>21845667
Islam, Not Christianity

[Anonymous No.21850579]

>>21850570
Why do you think globe will collapse?

[Anonymous No.21850584]

>>21850572
Ai won't change shit.

[Anonymous No.21850715]

>>21850572
The difference is that in the modern world it's true. This is why everything's so insane: for the first time society is stable enough to accommodate the insanity; older societies couldn't.

[Anonymous No.21850744]

>>21850715
Anon you're literally doing it right now
Ask yourself is it really true? Why does society have to be the way it is right now?
The answer is so very simple. Because you and everyone else believes that it must be. You are simply accepting an axiomatic narrative as the truth and thus it becomes true.
There is no damn difference. There is no "modern world". There is only "the world" and what the habitants of this world, i.e. you, choose to do with it.

[Anonymous No.21850749]

>>21850715
Sorry m8, but you got brainwashed. Society is stable because they convinced you it's stable.
Also
>thinking society is stable
Lmao

[Anonymous No.21850760]

>>21850715
>the hundreds of thousands of failed states and societies that came before us were unstable and precarious, so obviously they were going to fail
>but the one that i just so happen to be living in at this exact moment in time is inescapable

[Anonymous No.21850774]

>>21850744
>>21850749
>>21850760
Necessary labour to maintain societ - Existent labour pool.
This is the equation that determines societal stability. Automation means the former is very small whilst the latter is very large.

Our society is fucked. If we had to fight a ww2 style war we would be living in one of the most unstable societies imaginable. We will not because a ww2 style war, or any other X style event that requires a polity wide mobilization to counter NO LONGER OCCUR. This is because there is no possible emergency that would actually benefit from a wholescale mobilization amongst the whole population rather than a partial mobilization amongst a certain part of society. This is why the elites are fine with the decline in trust: it doesn't matter.

Please think before you post in the future </3

[Anonymous No.21850804]

>>21850774
Anon you are doing it even worse than before

>This is the equation that determines societal stability
axiomatic narrative

>If we had to fight a ww2 style war
baseless what if scenario, catastrophizing

>We will not... NO LONGER OCCUR... no possible emergency
more baseless absolutes and presuppositions

>This is why the elites
surrendering control, offloading responsibility

>it doesn't matter
and finally pure defeatism

>Please think before you post in the future </3
Ego (enables all of the above)

ACCEPT THAT THIS MOMENT IN TIME IS TEMPORARY
ACCEPT THAT THE FUTURE CAN CHANGE
You need these ideas beaten into you if necessary

[Anonymous No.21851068]

>>21850804
>You need these ideas beaten into you if necessary
O-only if you're gentle :3

[Anonymous No.21851326]

>>21845101
this, we're on a fast track to despotic, high-tech internationalized oligrachism

[Anonymous No.21852418]

>>21850560
Deneen still argues that liberal society is unsustainable and will collapse under its contradictions when in reality the entire history of modernity is an acceptance of these contradictions

[Anonymous No.21852761]

>>21850572
And what what you just described is the entire purpose of liberal ideology. The problem we have today is that very few people have realized that this is the true nature of liberalism. Most of the world accepts its premises at face value. And so we have a myriad of problems today in our globalized cosmopolitan world order --- a collapse in fertility, a lack of faith in institutions, unsustainable demographic shifts, a downturn in economic growth, climate change. But none of it has caused anyone to reconsider their beliefs. They've never stopped and questioned if the rites of individual freedom and liberty are actually arbitrary, nonsensical ideals. There is no war on the horizon, there are no more battles to fight. We're stuck. Humanity is poisoned and we don't know when it becomes terminal.

[Anonymous No.21853312]

>>21850574
Islam is already failing, they're secularizing as fast as Christian nations once did.

If anything, Christianity seems primed for a revival.

[Anonymous No.21853340]

>>21853312
>Christianity seems primed for a revival
Now this is comedy

[Anonymous No.21853352]

>>21845087
>I've accepted that the issues of the 21st century are not design flaws, they're features. They're here to stay and I have to live with it. I suggest you stop coping and do the same.
Nah, I am going to end this system all by myself.

[Anonymous No.21853370]

>>21853340
Well, at least Catholicism and Orthodoxy. The Prots may be doomed.

[Anonymous No.21853476]

>>21846976
>When the world capital of abortion and child porn wins, then we will have tradition?
repeating jewish lis about Russia doesn't magically make them real, they've been lying about Russia for 1000 years none of this crap is now.
And sure jewish communist occupation of Russia that lasted 70 years has left some bad consequences on them but unlike west they are trying to recover from in and built something good, while the west is destroying itself and sinking deeper and deeper in to satanic communism.
These are hard facts, trough your brainwashing might not allow you to see clearly thorough jewish propaganda and russophobia but these are objective facts as seen by someone who has no skin in this game other.

[Anonymous No.21853486]

>>21853476
Not to mention that if we're talking about the world capital of abortion and child porn, why wouldn't that be the United States?

God I fucking hate the United States. I thoroughly detest this country and I long for its complete and total destruction.

[Anonymous No.21853587]

>>21853370
>Well, at least Catholicism and Orthodoxy
Comedy gold.

[Anonymous No.21853591]

>>21853370
Prots still fuck like rabbits so I dunno about that

[Anonymous No.21853599]

>>21850804
Determinism is a helluva drug

[Anonymous No.21853602]

>>21853486
In all seriousness what most fuckwits on the right strive for is just as jewish as what they attempt to oppose. Moses Hess loved ethnostates too.

[Anonymous No.21853620]

>>21853602
Well, the Jews make out pretty well for themselves, who wouldn't want to copy their strategies?

[Anonymous No.21853665]

>>21845087
Why is /lit/ so hysterical?

[Anonymous No.21853717]

>>21853476
russia has been a shithole since the bourgeoisie took power with their revolution, and to be fair even under monarchy, russia was shit

[Anonymous No.21853783]

>>21853620
I dunno, someone who isn’t an apostate

[Anonymous No.21854431]

>>21845104
Russias biggest triumph is recapturing what young men consider normal. When the soviet union shattered, people in eastern europe all had this desire to become a "normal" country like west european countries.
With the advent of globohomoism (neoliberalism with LGBT lipservice) it was trivial for the schizo state of Russia to seem normal in comparison. Even though they have the most drug addicts, even though they unleash raping an pillaging hordes of muzzies on Europeans with blond hair and blue eyes. Globohomoism is so absurd and at odds with reality, that many young men now look at Russia as the "normal" state. This losing normality to the Russians or even China has been the biggest failure of the West.

[Anonymous No.21854441]

>>21845104
Yeah. The infested lands of toxic environment, abortion and HIV will surely rise. No matter that they must now buy Yuans to conduct foreign trade in the future. Are you going to kill yourself when Ukraine retakes Crimea?

[Anonymous No.21854445]

>>21845568
Take a glance on the status of gay relationships in ancient Greece and Rome genius.

[Anonymous No.21854498]

>>21845499
damn this post goes hard

[Anonymous No.21854529]

>>21853370
This but the opposite of what you said.

[Anonymous No.21854555]

>>21845517
>>21847796
>>21847826
>>21850572
>>21853665
>nooo please dont denounce the system if you denounce it the system will still win please stop!

[Anonymous No.21854562]

china will replace america economically and militarily, only thing america will have left is its stagnated culture. Its never been more over for libtard crapitlism

[Anonymous No.21854571]

>>21845101
Classical liberalism ended in the early 20th century when every western nation decided to adopt extreme government control of the economy

[Anonymous No.21854649]

>>21854562
>muh China
China won't do a damn thing. They'll obey the instructions capital gives them

[Anonymous No.21854910]

>>21845122
>And you can't make America illiberal without it ceasing to be America. If the United States became illiberal, it would not be the United States any more, but something else.
That is what it is trending towards. It's why I am pretty convinced it is over even if they beat Russia and China. I think to do so they would have to become something fundementally unamerican that makes the previous world wars look like a joke.

That being said I could see them limp along or a few fuck ups preserving the status quo longer, but it becomes more doubtful each day the Government baits WW3 and cracks down domestically.

[Anonymous No.21854926]

>>21850572
>The moment that you accept there is no alternative is the moment when it actually becomes true.
No, that just makes you delusional and more likely to catastrophically fuck up. A good example of this is that according to my contacts in DC Biden's admin the most 'ideological' they have ever encountered.

Now this is probably not true on paper, but what this really means is that the US Government has reached such a level of idealism we are straining our relations with Israel and damaged them with Turkey, Saudis, Burma solely because of their ideology despite them all wanting to serve us.

You can see in WW1 what happens when you convince yourself your nation or ideology is invincible—It ends with the German fleet Admirals wanting to have a romantic final battle that kills everyone and all the sailors mutinying. It ends with the Russian Empire collapsing. It ends with both the UK and France as shells of themselves with France already dead and the UK limping onwards until the US puts them out of their misery.

[Anonymous No.21854937]

>>21854649
It is fun watching the sheer anxiety Westerners display when someone asks: what if China kicks the door in and stops the party?

[Anonymous No.21854949]

>>21854937
>what if China kicks the door in and stops the party?
What would that entail do you think? They're going to cut themselves off from Western markets? What 'party' are they capable of stopping?

[Anonymous No.21854961]

>>21854562
You're an actual idiot and people like you are so frustrating because of your prevalence.

The United States and China are codependent. Without China American consumerism would die in the face of real* prices for goods. Without America's consumers, China's economy, and subsequently social stability would collapse.

The promise of Nike democracy has worked (to a degree). Codependence hasn't eliminated national interests, but it has certainly moderated them. The United States and China will, in all likelihood, find a balance as China's place in the world become more certain. It will be a multipolar world.

[Anonymous No.21854970]

>>21854961
>The United States and China will, in all likelihood, find a balance as China's place in the world become more certain. It will be a multipolar world.
The US is not accepting this, they won't let China have control of Taiwan. If this leads to their co-dependency rupturing the US will try and take down China with it as the final act of spite.
The 'realist' bloc in US politics has lost to the 'idealist' bloc and is barely able to keep the idealist bloc from escalating in Ukraine right now.

[Anonymous No.21854981]

>>21845104
Two more weeks, anon

[Anonymous No.21855028]

>>21854970
You're framing it wrong. Taiwan isn't the defining point of American leadership in the world. It does not have military commitments to it, only promises of support. On the assumption that Taiwan will become a crisis point again, it won't be *the* definitive one, but one of many. US policymakers are not framing this as a win-lose situation. That construct is in your head. They're not preventing China's rise, but balancing how they rise.

The situation is Ukraine is different. Only comparable at surface level -- and don't fixate on the US when it comes to Ukraine. This isn't about idealists and realists. It is the legitimacy of states having agency and "great powers" having rights to spheres of influence (they don't).

[Anonymous No.21855959]

>>21855028
America is never going to tolerate a multipolar world. Even if economically China rises to the top, the West will never concede its cultural and ideological power. Liberal democracy still very much dominates around the world and the Internet is the primary propaganda organ of the West. That is precisely why China bans all Western Internet sites. As powerful as China is becoming it has no interest in spreading socialism to other countries.

[Anonymous No.21856074]

>>21845101
classical liberalism is a suicidal ideology. Rosseau perhaps would despise the world as it is today, but that doesn't change the fact that the implementation and drawn-out conclusions of HIS ideas are what got us here.

[Anonymous No.21856083]

>>21845104
Leader of the Wagner group (which uses sledgehammers for executions and is therefore a barbaric nigger organisation) is a Jew.

[Anonymous No.21856106]

>>21845178
Israel is very liberal. They were one of the first countries in the world to elect a w*man leader and Tel Aviv is one of the most homosexual and vegan cities in the world.

[Anonymous No.21856122]

>>21856074
Locke was more influential for liberalism. Rousseau was more of a forefather for leftism although liberalism is indeed quite left-leaning now

[Anonymous No.21856144]

>>21850207
cope

[Anonymous No.21856163]

>>21845087
Why are people on /lit/ so fatalistic
It has to be a psyop
Everywhere you go on this site you see posts of "It's over" and "Globohomo won" and so on
It's manufactured

[Anonymous No.21856207]

>>21845101
>Voltaire or Rousseau
literally proto-redditors

[Anonymous No.21856223]

>>21845104
>>21845108
spbp
tpbp

[Anonymous No.21857408]

>>21856207
this desu

[Anonymous No.21857937]

>>21845101
>Voltaire
>Rousseau
>Classic liberals

[Anonymous No.21858035]

>>21845122
liberalism's strength as a system is entirely based on petrochemical civilization. when the oil runs out the jig is up, doesn't matter who's nominally in charge

[Anonymous No.21858277]

>>21858035
materialist arguments are so fucking dumb. yeah everyone will just stop believing in liberalism and abandon their cosmopolitan lifestyles once the oil runs out, totally. every genderqueer democrat dreg will cease to exist overnight!

[Anonymous No.21859392]

>>21854961
>Without China American consumerism would die in the face of real* prices for goods
If what we see in the store now is the unreal price - I don't want to see the real price.

[Anonymous No.21859422]

>>21845101
You are delusional to think that social media and mass surveillance are relevant. The hypocricy of classical liberalism always meant that it inevitably would turn itself into a totallitarian state, the reason it did not is because the american system was never under a serious threat and economic prosperty (which liberalism could effectively generate) kept the population completely away from threatening the system.

It is just circumstance that *right now* the liberal regime is in crisis and resorts to totallitarian measures against its own population. The system was never honest in its respect for its proclaimed values, but it could, for a long time, get away with passivity.