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21841209 No.21841209 [Reply] [Original]

>proves that your soul is immortal

Nothing personal.

>> No.21841243
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21841243

>>21841209
based plato

>> No.21841247

>>21841209
"""""""""proves""""""""

>> No.21841253

>>21841209
Ah yes the soul is immortal because opposites emerge from each other so just as death comes from life, life must come from death

What an unassailable proof

>> No.21841259

>>21841253
Don't forget also that music comes from a lyre and a man can make many coats before dying. Sure enough, your soul must live on.

>> No.21841341

>>21841247
>>21841253
>>21841259
Not a refutation.

>> No.21841347

>>21841341
I azm not reguting him. If a guy knits a bunch of cioats and he dies and his coat is still there then that is like a soul being reincarnated after several lifetimes and ultimately scending. That logic follows to me.

>> No.21841350

>>21841341
So demonstrate this proof, dangaling

>> No.21841356

>>21841341
Hes right. Kill yourself and then reincarnate to show us how its done.

>> No.21841384

>>21841253
That's not the full argument, but you're correct, it is unassailable.

>> No.21841388

>>21841209
Does he bother to explain exactly what the soul is?

>> No.21841392

>>21841388
Self-mover

>> No.21841396

>>21841388
According to Plato, the soul is an abstraction of the primordial One that existed before the Universe. All souls are one in the same in that they are the Form of the Beautiful. Also your ability to recollect knowledge is proof of this because if all is One then that means at one time your soul was keen to all secrets of the universe so that is how you know/ remember things.

>> No.21841424
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21841424

>>21841396
so the great plato was a basic perennialist like all the hippie housewives of the 60s? how utterly embarrassing

>> No.21841434

>>21841259
Fuck, I haven't made one coat.
I've just been buying them from the store like a philosophylet.

>> No.21841438

>>21841424
The trick to reading Plato is you only pay attention to the aporia dialogues and disregard anything moralist where he lectures you.

>> No.21841441

>>21841424
Why don't you actually read his books?
You are posting on a board for discussing books but you haven't read the book you are discussing.
No one would talk to you about a film in detail if you hadn't watched so why for a book any will I can't understand.

>> No.21842283

>>21841396
That's not Plato, that's Plotinus and his successors.

>> No.21842580

>>21841441
well, if the post i was responding to is accurate, he is definitely not worth reading

>> No.21842952

>>21842283
Wrong, the divine Plato was in agreement with Plotinus, a who was merely an exegete.

>> No.21842995

>>21842952
Okay, via citations:

Where is the soul said to be an abstraction of the One?

Where is soul as a whole said to be the Form of the Beautiful?

Where is recollection defended by means of the oneness of all soul?

>> No.21843014

>>21841209
Plato was not a blond white man. He was as brown as the good Greek earth.

>> No.21843026

>>21843014
> blond
He's old in that pic. His hair is white and yellowish like an old person's.

>> No.21843180

>>21841209
He was right about everything

>> No.21843651

>>21842580
He can be pretty funny and not everything is woo (though most of it is still wrong)

>> No.21843659

>>21841209
>proves that your soul is immortal
Only if you have a soul, that is.

>> No.21843963

>>21841341
>>21841209
Most of the proves are retarded. What I liked best so far is the way Sokrates faces death. Apology, Kriton and phaedon all show that very well.

>> No.21844353

>>21843963
What do you like about the way he does it?

>> No.21844526

>>21842995
For the last one, Menobis the correct dialogue.

>> No.21844745

>>21844526
The passage you have in mind, 81d, says that either every being is akin (syngennos, literally "like-kin"), or being as a whole is akin, not that it's One.

>> No.21844779

Why aren't any of you making an attempt at refutation?

>> No.21844844

>>21841356
Already did :)

>> No.21844862

>>21841209
thank you plate

>> No.21844890

plato was actually so wrong about everything its not even funny

>> No.21844892

Pascal makes it quite didactic:
>What reason have they for saying that we cannot rise from the dead? What is more difficult, to be born or to rise again; that what has never been should be, or that what has been should be again? Is it more difficult to come into existence than to return to it? Habit makes the one appear easy to us; want of habit makes the other impossible. A popular way of thinking!

>> No.21844918

>>21844745
You are arguing semantics. if it is akin and of the same nature then it is of the One.

>> No.21844949

>>21844779
I left to eat a beef sandwuch and watch Golden Girls. My life shouldn't revolve around refuting your language games and feigned ignorance of Platonic discourse.

>> No.21845452

>>21844918
That's not mere semantics; "akin" is not the same as "same". Your family are your kin (the common meaning of syngenes); you're not thereby the same as your family members. You're welcome to see that borne out by Plato's use of syngenes:

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/wordfreq?lang=greek&lookup=suggenh%2Fs

More to the point, the issue under contention doesn't bear out the claim that Plato teaches recollection as possible on account of all being One. That's a later tradition that has to evidently apply interpretation to present that doctrine.

>> No.21845541

>>21841424
you're telling me housewives had a sense of soul before modern feminism?

>> No.21845550

>>21845452
Plato never claimed to have completed his own system.

>> No.21845818

>>21841209
Do you actually mean soul or the meme "soul" that's unextended, senseless, and is basically nothing except it's a "reflection of the One, maaann".

>> No.21845849

>>21842580
reading Plato unironically brought me closer to God

>> No.21845863

>>21842580
>if the post i was responding to is accurate,
It has nothing to do with plato

>> No.21845867

>>21841396
You never read Plato.

>> No.21845868

What dialogue?

>> No.21846026

>>21842952
>>21845452
Anon, Plato obviously gave the esoteric platonic teachings that were handed down orally for 600 years despite Platonism being a mainstream school all this time. Surely those Neoplatonists are serious people and not a bizarro syncretism with Chaldaic oracles and the most heretical pseudo-Christian sects, and totally don't contradict previous Platonists. You can trust their interpretation.

>> No.21846402

>>21842995
>he doesn't know about anamnesis
Plotinus doesn't need any citations

>> No.21846418

why are materialists so irrational and delluded? You literally create an abstraction, "death", based on observation that all people eventually stop moving and talking (LITERALLY NO OTHER EXPERIENTIAL PROOF) and therefore somehow because of reasons expand that abstraction into an absolute normative according to which your conscious awareness simply goes poof and somehow everything is black and in third person (?) even though literally all data and facts and reason only ever come to you in first person in the here and now. It is actually impossible to even conceive of this "nothingness" yet these resentment filled mutants take it as absolute fact. As a matter of fact, the proof for the contrafactual is given to us literally every night in the analogical form of dreams, where reality basically spills the beans and demonstrate its nature as created by Subject, not the other way around, yet these people still persist in their dellusion

>> No.21846425

>>21846418

The importance of dreams is vastly overblown. It's horoscope tier nonsense. You've never had a dream that matches reality.

>> No.21846426

>>21841396
>if all is One
It isn't.

>> No.21846431

>>21846026
>Plato obviously gave the esoteric platonic teachings
It's pretty obvious if you read his letters.

>> No.21846434

>>21846418
That's far too analytical and intellectualized a characterization of death. They know about and give importance to "death" as the object of a built in survival instinct, not as an empirical theory of some type of bodies not moving anymore (which as you say would be inadequate by itself to build a theory of death in the psychological sense).

>> No.21846436

Phaedo brought a dang tear to my eye when I first read it.

>> No.21846439

>>21846418
Good post.
>>21846425
>The importance of dreams is vastly overblown.
The fact that they exist at all in the form they do is all you need to refute materialism. How "important" (which is entirely subjective) they are with respect to the waking state is not relevant to anon's post.

>> No.21846440

>>21846434
>They know about and give importance to "death" as the object of a built in survival instinct
There is no such thing. Animals have no concept of death, only survival. All notions of "death" are inherently intellectual and abstract.

>> No.21846454

>>21846425
I have had dreams that actually had some connection with real life, one I will never forget about was this one thing happening in a dream and then waking up thinking it could have happened in real vigil life but finding nothing. After a few hours witnessing the same event (rather unlikely one) happen to me.
I don’t think we can bring this realm to our own everyday life as if it could give us answers, I agree that it might become too horoscope tier. But I’m sure they show us enough not to hurry to determinate conclusions about post-life state.

>> No.21846465

>>21846440
It might be abstract in the sense that it requires considering the absence of life, which dumb animals don't do. It isn't an observation of physiological death.
What we can say is that there are strong bonds between psychological life and bodily motion and integrity, so when the second stops, mortalists assume that the first one ceases existence.
Of course this doesn't follow at all even in an hylomorphic interpretation of souls.

>> No.21846469

>>21846425
How can a person understand so little of what he read. This poster must be a bot.

>> No.21846522

>>21841253
If I remember well, the divine Plato, preparator of the way of Christ, used the image of the climate.
He used this analogy that I will explain you in my way.
>The proof is that nothing gets destroyed, nothing is lost. (it's impossible to go to nothingness)
>Climate doesn't disappear, it just change, same for everything cyclical he quotes
>Your counciouscness, in the same law of everything natural, cannot disappear into oblivion
>Everything can only be transformed (that's also a law of science with Lavoisier)
>"But if my counsciousness come back and from something lower liike matter ?"
>The more cannot come from the less or it would mean the less includes in himself the more (in this case it would mean the matter is spiritual/has human consciousness.

In short, no "return to nothingness" is possible to anything (just as no coming from nothingness). And the psyche of each has specific quality. So, like everything, she will just transform.