So do moral philosophers just dick around all day about which way the train should go?

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Anonymous Sun Mar 26 21:26:03 2023 No.21835461 [Reply] [Original]

So do moral philosophers just dick around all day about which way the train should go?

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 26 21:38:29 2023 No.21835504 >>21835461 I don't pull the lever because it could be a movie set and it's not ethical to ruin a shot.

Anonymous Sun Mar 26 21:40:29 2023 No.21835513

>>21835461
The real answer is that the moral good is an objective quality, but humans are unable to logically or rationally quantify it. So, when you are sitting at the lever it may be easy or it may he difficult depending on the composition of the victims, but the moral weight of your decision rests on the amount of knowledge you have regarding the victims.

In most cases, it would be better to pull the lever. The problem is that the "moral good" doesn't hinge on math or moral calculus. It depends on the situation. So, sometimes, if you are getting mugged by a desperate, naive, young thief, the most moral thing might be to spare him or her.
No amount of calculus can determine this with any accuracy, besides the experience itself.

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 26 21:41:07 2023 No.21835517 File: 28 KB, 625x357, 1488283970817.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21835461 not always

>>	Anonymous Sun Mar 26 21:43:42 2023 No.21835528 >>21835461 Pull lever, one body will cause less damage to the trolley. The trolley can deliver more value over its service life carrying commuters than a single person is likely able to

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:00:25 2023 No.21836512

>>21835461
You don't pull the lever.

Pulling the lever is homicide. Watching as the train kills the five people is not homicide.

Actively killing someone is not at all the same thing as failing to prevent someone getting killed. If it was, you would be personally responsible for the 'murder' of thousands of people you could have saved but didn't. You know for a fact that there are millions of people out there in the world starving to death in the streets, who you could feed with your money, but you didn't. Does that make you a murderer? If that was the case, we are all genocidal murderers for refusing to pay every dollar we have to charities feeding African children. Also, we should dedicate every single waking hour of our lives doing volunteer work nursing people in the hospital, firefighting, lifeguarding etc because we are passively killing those people by refusing to help them with our time.

That is the logical consequence of believing that pulling the lever and not pulling the lever are morally equivalent. It is patently nonsensical, so not pulling the lever is not the same as pulling the lever. Action is murder and inaction is not. Q.E.D.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:04:28 2023 No.21836533 >>21836512 I would have signaled the second train to go to the track the first one didn't use, finishing the job antinatalism is the only solution my good sir

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:05:42 2023 No.21836540 >>21835461 The train so supposed to be run on your mother

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:10:20 2023 No.21836561 >>21835461 I don’t pull the lever because I don’t think the quantity of life determines its value and I’m lazy.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:11:19 2023 No.21836565 I'm a lever puller but most people aren't. Tell them that the jab is literally a trolley problem and watch them seethe. You should get vaxxed. Kill one to save five any day.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:14:05 2023 No.21836579 >>21836512 >you could have saved but didn't who are these people you don't know their situation anywhere near as well as you know the 5 and 1

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:14:32 2023 No.21836585

>>21836512
You are, in some way, responsible for every bad thing that you could have either prevented or contributed to the prevention of. In cases where you could only contribute, your evil is distributed among many, and in cases where you weren't aware of how to do good, you are protected by ignorance.

In the trolley problem, excepting any other knowledge of the situation, you have both the knowledge and power to prevent evil, and thus have a moral imperative to do so.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:24:21 2023 No.21836623 >>21836565 too bad viruses are just human-made exosomes that fight toxins and not the cause of disease

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:26:59 2023 No.21836634

>>21836512
Pulling the lever is piss-easy though. If you could push a button and cure some random kid’s cancer, people would think you’re evil if you didn’t press it. If the track had 5,000,000 people instead, and the whole world were watching you, you would be extremely criticized for not pulling the lever, because you could have easily saved millions, but chose not to.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:30:11 2023 No.21836647

>>21836512
If someone is dying in front of you and you are capable of helping them, if you choose not to help you would be morally responsible for their death. Completely different from abstract people dying somewhere that you may or may not be capable of helping, and much more comparable to the trolley problem.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:37:26 2023 No.21836676 >>21836647 Its honestly not really different though in an objective sense. In the sense of "is this person a psychopath" it's very different but not in a utilitarian calculus

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:40:05 2023 No.21836685 >>21836647 >help >guy lives >guy sues you for disabling him even though you saved his life >in debt for life whereas >do nothing >he dies >go on with my life

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:44:05 2023 No.21836704 >>21836685 Yeah that convinced no one

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 02:46:06 2023 No.21836712 >>21836676 "Utilitarian calculus" is psychopath shit >>21836685 Many jurisdictions have "good Samaritan laws" that offer legal protection in situations like that

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 03:14:09 2023 No.21836839 >>21835461 No, touching the lever makes you kammically responsible for the death of someone. If you do not touch it, you have no bad kamma.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 03:46:30 2023 No.21836954 >>21836512 Not pulling the lever after you're aware of the situation is an action

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 03:51:43 2023 No.21836974 >>21835461 It being better to have not born a boddhisatva will cause a multitrack drift while saying the lotus prayer.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 03:52:22 2023 No.21836978

>>21835513
With only the information given it does not make sense to risk flipping the lever. I don't know the reason for anything that's happening.
If I'm teleported in front of a lever and see all this shit going down my first thought is not to inject myself into this fucked up situation that makes no sense.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 04:03:04 2023 No.21837044 >>21836579 >who are these people There are people that need saving, you're not seeking them out. Some guy just got shot, where were you? >>21836565 Classic utilitarian killing himself because the TV told him. Your precious vax didn't even work.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 10:07:50 2023 No.21837701 >>21836512 So you don't save five people instead of one person just because of your moralistic self-perception? Seems completely narcissistic. And as >>21836954 said, not pulling the lever is an action.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 10:18:12 2023 No.21837716 >>21836512 >you would be personally responsible for the 'murder' of thousands of people you could have saved but didn't This is what 0 consciousness does to a mf.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 10:40:31 2023 No.21837757 >>21835461 I actually like ethics, in contrast to most people on this board

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 11:56:34 2023 No.21837882 >>21836512 >8 replies and still no refutation /thread

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 11:58:29 2023 No.21837889 >>21836954 >Not pulling the lever after you're aware of the situation is an action wrong, that's a choice made to determine the lack of an action. pulling the lever would be making the choice to act.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:02:34 2023 No.21837897

>>21837044
NTA but I had covid twice pre-vax and haven‘t gotten it since. I had no noticeable side-effects beyond spending two Saturdays at home playing vidya with the sniffles and my gains are no longer threatened by weeks of poor respiration. I‘m hitting some of the best numbers of my life and basically it‘s pretty swell.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:03:49 2023 No.21837901 >>21835461 Correct answer is to kill everyone. That is true fairness and justice, no one get more than someone else.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:04:04 2023 No.21837902

>>21837897
NTA but I didn't get it and I'm healthier than anyone I know around me that did get it. you don't have to believe me and I'm not here to convince you that you took poison. I never took a covid test therefore I have no idea if what I experienced was covid or seasonal allergies

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:14:46 2023 No.21837931

>>21836512
But you actually are responsible for those things. If you walked past a shallow pond with a drowning toddler in it you could easily save and you don’t then you’re deliberately letting the child die.

In the same way, if you buy novels ans videogames with your excess wages that could help someone not starve to death you’re deliberately letting that person die.

The most moral thing to do is go work in the highest earning job you can find and work as much as you can without burning out and living in the cheapest appartment eating simple but healthy foods and donating the rest to charity.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:20:02 2023 No.21837947 >>21835461 you find yourself at an ethical dilemma. do you engage with the ethical dilemma?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:22:01 2023 No.21837955 File: 66 KB, 712x271, Screenshot_20230327_082141_Firefox.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21835461

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:43:03 2023 No.21838006

>>21835513
This right here. Objective morality is written in the fabric of the universe, but we're not gods so we can't really read it. We have to shamble in the dark and make guesses with trial and error.

Note that this is also a more general epistemology. Most things about the universe are unknowable to any reasonable degree.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:44:30 2023 No.21838012 >>21837901 >equality is justice Some people are worth more than others.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:48:01 2023 No.21838026 >>21835517 KEK >>21835461 There is simply not enough information to make an educated response. Moral philosophers are phd failures. It's a filter to keep the real philosophers out of the Pythagorean circle.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:49:48 2023 No.21838029 >>21836634 >Criticism imolys wrongdoing Not an argument.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:51:51 2023 No.21838033

>>21836512
You are conflating legal truths with morality. Further, you seem more concerned with avoiding responsibility than doing the right thing. Even if you were to be tried and punished, that's the moral equivalent of adding one body to the tracks.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 12:52:17 2023 No.21838036 >>21837931 >Letting niggers die >Immoral Ishygddt >Verification not required

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 13:03:05 2023 No.21838060 >>21838006 How do you know objective morality is there if you have no access to it? Is it just faith/wishful thinking?

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 13:22:18 2023 No.21838095

>>21837931
Those two things are not equivalent though. One is happening right in front of you and involves a real, defined person. The other is only something which is happening somewhere to someone. Unless you are literally watching someone starve it's a totally different scenario

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 13:31:18 2023 No.21838115 >>21835461 It's a matter of peaple making more of something than there is. Just pull the lever.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 13:33:56 2023 No.21838120

>>21836565
>Tell them that the jab is literally a trolley problem and watch them seethe.

>You should get vaxxed. Kill one to save five any day.
The vaxx trolley problem was "kill young people to save old people", dummy. At that point the numbers are irrelevant, its just a trade no intelligent person would make unless they were manipulated into it

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 13:38:35 2023 No.21838128

>>21837897
You're an idiot. Why type any of this shit? What's the point retard? Did the vax completely destroy your brain?
Covid infection rates in my country increased 100x the month after everyone got jabbed. Presumably because they believed the lie that the jab does anything useful.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 13:43:54 2023 No.21838139 >>21836512 This. It's not my problem. By pulling the lever I am making it my problem.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 13:48:17 2023 No.21838149 >>21838095 So you’re saying you’re a webcam feed and a paypal link away from moral obligation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 13:54:09 2023 No.21838167 >>21836512 this. if i pull the lever, someone dies by my hand. if I don't do anything, i'm just a bystander.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 14:01:44 2023 No.21838183 >>21838167 >wasting the opportunity to play god over whether people live or die ngmi

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 14:04:52 2023 No.21838188

>>21835513
How are you able to make the claim "in most cases" if you reject that moral good can be quantified? Consider that if you know the relative sizes of moral cases, then you can at least begin to sort them probabilistically, which would be a form of quantification.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 14:05:13 2023 No.21838190 >>21836685 Ask me how I know you’re Chinese

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 16:29:49 2023 No.21838550 File: 278 KB, 743x635, 1490156513017.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21838167

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 16:30:34 2023 No.21838552 >>21838190 Dude, what, he's obviously not Chinese, nor probably any other Asian. They're extremely collectivist, and the good of the collective always trumps the good of an individual.

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 16:52:25 2023 No.21838645

>>21835461
>interchangeable featureless Procrustean persons
Don't care without further information. Are they children? Are there younger and older? Parents?

>>21835517
lmao

>>21836512
>You don't pull the lever
The sane and legal liability limiting choice, because whomever tied them to the track could still be in the area, and there's no Good Samaritan obligation when in fear for your life.

>>21836565
>the nanolipid delivery mechanism can and does go everywhere and anywhere throughout the body
>the spike protein is cytotoxic
>your gene transfected cells now produce it for an indeterminant length of time
>:cardiacandreproductivedegeneration:
https://www.tga.gov.au/sites/default/files/foi-2389-06.pdf

>>21838033
>pharisee bad
Didn't tie them to the tracks, unreasonable time frame to act one way or the other, perpetrator could still be in the immediate area, don't care.

>>21838550
>destroying legal tender is a crime

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 16:54:14 2023 No.21838654 >>21838550 Completely justified if the outcome is that the five people die anyway. You shouldnt tell people that you pulled the lever so you could get 100 dollars

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 16:56:20 2023 No.21838666

>>21836565
>I'm a lever puller but most people aren't.
That's where you're wrong. From some studies I've seen the ratio is 80/20, for pull lever and not pull it, respectively. People are conformist little sheep and will pull the lever because they think it's the right thing to do.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 17:08:54 2023 No.21838716 >>21838666 It IS the right thing to do. You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to justify your position, but not pulling the lever is a choice just as much as pulling it is

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 17:37:07 2023 No.21838802 >>21838716 >You can do all the mental gymnastics you want to justify your position, but not pulling the lever is a choice just as much as pulling it is Indeed, both are a choice. Some people choose to pull it some don't

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 18:11:30 2023 No.21838927 File: 499 KB, 539x615, trolley---3letteragencies.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21837882 samefagging this hard

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 18:12:27 2023 No.21838930 >>21835461 i rip out the lever and shove it up my ass

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 18:27:56 2023 No.21838989 >>21838552 ? I won’t post them but there are some lovely videos out there involving toddlers being run over and bystanders casually stepping over the wailing corpses to be. China is collectivist in name only. Japan maybe, but China? Really?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 18:58:27 2023 No.21839115 >>21838802 If I know all the factors involved then I'm already involved. If there's reasonable doubt about what's going on I'm not involved and choosing to inject myself into a situation I don't understand leading to a man dying isn't right.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 19:19:21 2023 No.21839182 >>21838930 >he doesn't gently lower his ass onto the lever and whoever dies is merely a consequence of milking his prostate Well, I guess I'm the ultimate libertine.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 19:52:57 2023 No.21839289 bump

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:45:13 2023 No.21839768

>>21838060
If you assume that there is nothing metaphysical, there is nothing to discuss. Following your system of beliefs to its conclusion means that there is nothing, nothing can be known, no statements are meaningful except with respect to your possibly (or almost certainly) fake and imagined world hallucinated entirely by an incorporeal thought experiment.
>>21838188
In a manner of speaking, they can be "quantified." But it's not by any scientific means at all. Looking at data points never give a correct answer (unless by pure chance). It isn't possible to know the correct answer unless you don't believe in subjectivism. What I mean by this is, you literally don't believe our perception differs in any meaningful way and we all perceive the same objective reality with varying levels of imperfection.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:49:11 2023 No.21839788 literally just run away, don't touch the lever and run

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:51:40 2023 No.21839794 >>21839788 Okay, but what if you'll be replaced with someone on the tracks when you refuse?

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:52:28 2023 No.21839800 >>21839794 I am too far away, cannot hear you

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 21:54:06 2023 No.21839809 >>21839794 This is a better question. How many people would you sacrifice if it was you or them? If you’re honest with yourself the answer might surprise you

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:00:53 2023 No.21839845 >>21839809 about 6 millions

Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:02:34 2023 No.21839854

>>21839809
At some number statistically more of my information is maintained than through myself. Four siblings contain my information with more redundancy than my body alone. One me is equivalent to four siblings which is equivalent to billion Africans.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:06:49 2023 No.21839869 >>21839845 Close >>21839854 I’d kill you and your siblings in a heartbeat to save a cousin of mine

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:13:07 2023 No.21839896 >>21839869 That's healthy. I feel comforted when people admit this, it means we're on the same page and we can help each other knowing the exact limits of our cooperation.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:41:17 2023 No.21839983 >>21839809 Depends on their race, obviously. Or if they're trannies.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:45:07 2023 No.21839992 >>21839788 >>21839800 You're this meme, but instead of money it's people

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:46:21 2023 No.21839995 File: 88 KB, 720x514, lob5svatl2001.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21839992 Feck, forgot the pic

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 22:53:02 2023 No.21840017 >>21835461 philosophy is mostly not about reasoning or inquiry, it's about trying to throw shit together to justify your pre-philosophic notions and maybe convince other people.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 23:17:46 2023 No.21840094 File: 1.09 MB, 1794x2048, c0c.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 23:19:30 2023 No.21840098 File: 79 KB, 853x480, 1591235740940.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21840094 and here's one from /sci/

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 23:21:07 2023 No.21840105 This thread proves morals are retarded and only useful for keeping a society together

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 23:45:59 2023 No.21840171 >>21840105 >only It's only useful to make everything work? Pff what a scam.

>>	Anonymous Mon Mar 27 23:54:51 2023 No.21840203 >>21839809 >How many people would you sacrifice if it was you or them? Yes.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 07:20:47 2023 No.21841421 File: 192 KB, 1920x1080, waitwhat.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21835461

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 11:47:36 2023 No.21841914

Turning one person into a sacrifice for the "good" of the many is an abhorrent act of utilitarian psychopathy.
What's next, are you going to say how a man with a complete set of healthy organs should be prematurely killed and his organs taken and given to 5 individuals who each need one of them?
By the logic of leverpullfags, this would be the ethical thing to do. Hunt down others and take them apart for the sake of the "majority". It's a tyrannical and perverse world you lot wish to create.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:00:20 2023 No.21841946

>>21835461
I've solved it.
If you kill one person to save the majority, these people now feel that maybe sacrificing one to save a few is morally ok, and they begin to use it to justify all sorts of oppression (only 1 in 10 people hate gangrape after all!)
If you kill the majority to save the one, the survivor feels guilty and does everything he can to atone, making him a decent person who helps society.

So, pull the lever and squash the many I say!

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:05:19 2023 No.21841955 >>21839768 Based refutation, Aquinas would be proud

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:07:17 2023 No.21841957 >>21841914 Is utilitarianism the mother of Leftism?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:07:43 2023 No.21841960 Metaphysics >> Epistemology >>>>>>>>>>>> Ethics

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:13:00 2023 No.21841972 >>21835461 How will you form your character? Be reading books like a mentally ill intellectual or by using your brain?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:22:09 2023 No.21842003 >>21841914 Only midwits aren't able to sense the difference between hunting a dude down and dissecting him, and pulling the lever. ALL moral conundrums are a result of midwit brainsharts.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 12:53:33 2023 No.21842071 >>21840098 fucking hell lmao

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:28:21 2023 No.21842310

>>21842003
When is enough complexity added to the lever mechanism so it becomes different from simply pulling a lever? You say if I "hunt down" the guy and for example press a lever on a gun that's "different" but how? At what point does it become different?
You would pull the lever in the basic experiment but not in the version where you have to push a fat guy in front of the train?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:34:26 2023 No.21842331 Don't pull the lever and end five people's suffering instead of only one person's.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:34:48 2023 No.21842332 >>21842310 Yes. It's pseud midwits that require an infinite level of abstractions on an infinite number of pointless thought experiments to be able to say anything- and then, they have nothing meaningful to say at all.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:38:32 2023 No.21842348

>>21842332
>being able to formally conceptualize things is le midwittery
You're just a coping retard unable to say anything about anything. Your posts are word vomit with no logical structure, nothing you say is based on anything and you're proud of it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 14:41:08 2023 No.21842355 >>21840098 pulling the lever will only even result in a finite amount of people dying whereas not pulling the lever will result in an infinite amount of people dying in a finite amount of time. (eg, after 1 second)

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 17:10:11 2023 No.21842884

>>21836512
Thanks for being reasonable

>>21836579
>>21836585
>>21836647
>>21837701
If you honestly believe what you write, go kill a innocent homeless person, his organs would be enough to save 5 people in the hospital. All about the greater good yknow :^)

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:03:59 2023 No.21843323

>>21835461
How fast can I pull the lever? What if I attempt to time it so that the front bogie goes straight, followed by the switching of the tracks before the rear bogie crosses. The to wheels will try to go in different directions and the train will quite harmlessly be derailed somewhere in the middle.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:11:24 2023 No.21843352

>>21840098
choose the bottom option if the train is electrically powered by cables, it will get bogged down by the bodies and eventually will come to rest, whereas with the top option it will lose a small amount of momentum each integer, but will then have track/cable space to speed back up again.

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:21:39 2023 No.21843388

>>21841914
It's not a true "sacrifice" because it's a given that people will die. Your argument is false because you are NOT arbitrarily targeting a an uninvolved individual to die. Instead, you have 6 people trapped in a perilous situation, the guy on the lone track is now inextricably involved with the fate of the others. This is not the case in your organ donor example, since his fate is not dependent on the unhealthy as it is. If you choose to sacrifice him, then his fate will become dependent on the others, and thus it is wrong because you are essentially adding an arbitrary individual to perilous situation.

By pulling the lever, you are simply redistributing the death from 5 to 1, and are not creating any new killings.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:26:12 2023 No.21843402 >>21842884 >If you honestly believe what you write, go kill a innocent homeless person, his organs would be enough to save 5 people in the hospital. All about the greater good yknow :^) That doesn't follow logically. see >>21843388

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:31:37 2023 No.21843417

>>21842310
>You would pull the lever in the basic experiment but not in the version where you have to push a fat guy in front of the train?
Yes, about 80/20 of people pull the lever in the basic experiment. In the pushing the fat guy version it's the reverse 20/80 in favor of pushing the fat guy. Don't ask me for source, I saw it in a lecture once, and if you care to know you will look it up yourself.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:32:54 2023 No.21843422 >>21843402 He's "that" sort of midwit and will continuously stretch the definition. >Well uhh... we're ALL in a perilous situation called life! Everyone is going to die EVENTUALLY!

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:34:52 2023 No.21843429 >>21843417 That's not a reason to do it. Unless, is the herd the authority that defines moral truths?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:36:11 2023 No.21843435 >>21843429 >That's not a reason to do it What are you talking about? It's not a reason, it's the spread of people that do it in the experiments when posed such questions. It's up to you to make the interpretation.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:39:01 2023 No.21843446 >>21835461 https://strawpoll.com/polls/Q0ZpR6YOVnM Vote now, do you pull the lever in OP's image or not?

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:40:25 2023 No.21843455 >>21843435 We were discussing reasons to do it or not. I asked a guy if he would pull the lever in the fat guy case. You answered "yes" and then told me about the experiment I referenced.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:43:11 2023 No.21843464 >>21843446 >No option for massaging your prostate with the leaver. Pass

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:45:32 2023 No.21843480 >>21843455 No, it was a rhetorical yes, as in people, about 80%, really pull the lever in the first experiment, but 80% don't pull it when the version is about the fat guy. Just so that we have all the facts available when discussing such matters

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:46:34 2023 No.21843486 >>21843464 >I'm too afraid to answer so I hide behind my gayness

Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:46:51 2023 No.21843487
File: 236 KB, 860x957, 3172635.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>21835461
A moralist would not touch the lever. Both options are a bit bad, but not touching the lever would be less bad because it would cause less pain (hypothetical btw) for the future. Shame about the pain caused to all five and his families for his deaths, but most normalfags are ironically psychopaths who only care about themselves, willing to brutally destroy and devour anyone before than starve.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:47:35 2023 No.21843493 >>21843487 >cowing to the shame psyop

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:48:06 2023 No.21843496 File: 874 KB, 1920x1080, 1668211893540699.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Wait, moralfags are actually real? I thought everyone just did what they felt like.

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:50:23 2023 No.21843505 File: 3.49 MB, 1536x1536, RedditNIgger.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21843496 >Wait, moralfags are actually real? Yes

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 19:52:42 2023 No.21843510 >>21843486 >oh no somebody made a gay joke on 4chan

>>	Anonymous Tue Mar 28 21:22:54 2023 No.21843810 File: 115 KB, 718x646, 1490156513018.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21840098 yes, well done /sci/, well done. However...

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 01:50:43 2023 No.21844797

>>21835461
I actually have a solution to this problem, in the abstract at least.

Wherein a all humanity can exists as they are now without any moral dilemmas, where either action, pulling and not pulling would be morally right.

It could even be done practically, though with quantum mechanics being the way they are I doubt it would ever be a perfect solution.

Would such an idea be interesting?

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 02:13:39 2023 No.21844858

You pull the lever. Inaction doesn’t absolve you from the consequences of your decision. You made the conscious choice to do nothing knowingly full well you can pull the lever and save lives. Any argument to the contrary is intellectual masturbation with no basis in reality

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 02:47:27 2023 No.21844967 >>21844858 What if instead of pulling a lever you have to push one fat man in front of the train?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 03:09:51 2023 No.21845042 >>21844967 How fat are we talking about? Like would I just have to nudge him or am I going to need a running start? Serious questions

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 03:34:55 2023 No.21845107 >>21845042 How fat exactly does he need to be for it to become immoral?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 03:40:45 2023 No.21845123 >>21844858 Like a fellow enlightened individual once said, I would never sacrifice one strand of my hair to save the entire empire. Utilitarians have no basis in reality

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 03:41:18 2023 No.21845124 >>21845107 At some degree of fatness I figure I’d be doing him and society a favour, but then I live in a country with socialized healthcare so ...

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 04:23:09 2023 No.21845269 Pulling the lever makes you a participant, not pulling it makes you an observer. For all I know, the five people used to torture orphans and the one guy is a hero. I'm not getting involved.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 04:39:40 2023 No.21845312

My problem is with the puppy stomping argument.

If you give me 2 billion dollars to fund animal shelters the world over simply for stomping a puppy, I still wouldn't stomp the puppy. Now the likely reasoning behind my choice is that our evolutionary fitness signals are not built for utilitarian logic, but I think that tells us something vital.

I mean, to what degree must we abandon logic to proceed as a species? It seems as soon as you figure out the harm game, simply reproducing looks barbaric, and that's bad news for fitness, obviously. What do we do about this real mismatch we've encountered?

It seems we can only "go forward" if we do so at the price of consideration.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 04:47:21 2023 No.21845330 File: 73 KB, 638x542, skateboardproblem.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21835461

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 04:49:10 2023 No.21845333 File: 335 KB, 1074x568, notrolleynoproblem.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>21835461 :^)

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 04:50:33 2023 No.21845341 File: 26 KB, 553x429, youcanonlywatch.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Ok last one

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 05:09:53 2023 No.21845392 >>21845330 >"Should you be listening to Superman by Goldfinger or Linoleum by NOFX?"

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 05:48:42 2023 No.21845489 >>21844967 Even better

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 13:49:34 2023 No.21846605

>>21845312
The physical puppy in front of you has a relationship with you, how you treat the puppy represents your nature. It's written down in the book of life. Spending 2 billion on some industrial project that in the end basically produces more puppy suffering is not the objective moral good you seem to think.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 13:58:31 2023 No.21846633

>>21845312
If the donation was made first, and I knew exactly what good it was doing, and had toured some of the shelters and seen the difference myself, and was able to mentally multiply that by the hundreds or thousands for all the other shelters I hadn't seen, and was satisfied with the amount of goodness done, then yes I would quickly and efficiently crush that puppies skull.
I'm just not convinced a huge cash injection is going to improve the lives of millions of puppies.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:10:21 2023 No.21846664

>>21846633
You're an evil puppy murderer. None of your cope justifies your evil, you murdered that puppy for what boils down to your lust for power. That you try to pretend murdering that puppy is good means you're not just evil but likely irredeemable.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:14:21 2023 No.21846677 >>21846664 It’s just a puppy anon.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:14:27 2023 No.21846678 Why does nobody ever mention the races of the people tied to the track? Wouldn't that make a huge difference in whether you decided to pull the lever or not?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:16:37 2023 No.21846683 >>21846677 Your supposed justification was about saving other puppies. This post reiterates the point that you don't care, it's about your lust for power nothing else, except maybe a desire to crush puppy skulls.

Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:18:33 2023 No.21846687

I mean you just do a quick physiognomy check to see if you can send the trolley after any jews or not. If you don't see any jews then you send it to the side with the most non-whites. This really isn't a hard problem to solve and I don't see why people get so bent out of shape about it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:19:39 2023 No.21846691 >>21846683 I’m Nta, just trying to put things in perspective.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:21:56 2023 No.21846700 >>21846691 You're retarded.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:27:18 2023 No.21846717 >>21846700 You’re the one having a little shit fit there guy. Get a grip

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:31:15 2023 No.21846731 >>21846717 I'm pointing out that your posts are retarded noise. No "perspective" was added by any of them. You're simply an idiot.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:32:31 2023 No.21846738 >>21846731 Still nta, but ok. The basis of the thread is sacrificing humans but you’re literally going out of your mind about a single puppy getting stomped and I’m the idiot? Mmm’kay

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:36:09 2023 No.21846752 >>21846738 >nta You are that fucking anon retard. Killing one puppy to "save" many in the future is a thought experiment not specifically about fucking puppies you mindless cancer.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:39:16 2023 No.21846765 >>21846752 Once again, the thought experiment is about killing people. Puppies are inconsequential in comparison. I’d murder a million puppies to save a single human, even one as obviously moronic and useless as yourself. You’re welcome

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:43:38 2023 No.21846780 >>21846765 I think this anon understands the race angle. Like if there were 5 niggers tied to one track and a single human tied to the other, the choice is really easy.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:43:56 2023 No.21846783 >>21846765 Pure white noise. You're the kind of retard that will never say anything on any subject.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:45:56 2023 No.21846792 >>21846780 Why just say things? You don't even try to justify the position. I already did justify a similar position in this thread by appealing to the desire of organisms to copy their information.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 14:48:58 2023 No.21846813 >>21846780 What if there was one black and four whites? And in others the rails a white?

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 15:18:26 2023 No.21846924 >>21846813 You send it after the 4 blacks and 1 white obviously. A white is going to die either way which is a shame but that can't be helped. At least by killing 4 niggers something positive will come out of the situation.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 15:19:22 2023 No.21846928 >>21835461 >you killed my spouse/parent/sibling/child vs >you watched as my spouse/parent/sibling child was killed X 5 which is worse? i don't know. i would just do a coin toss.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 15:20:15 2023 No.21846932 >>21846813 Oh wait I mis-read that sorry. If it's one black and 4 whites then you send it after the one white. Fewer whites dying is better.

>>	Anonymous Wed Mar 29 18:52:51 2023 No.21847693 >>21846783 Ok, I’d happily push you and you’re entire bloodline in front of a train to save a single educated nigger. Happy?

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/lit/ - Literature