/Lit/ lied to me

[Anonymous No.21806482]

After years of thinking this series was nothing but goyslop I watched the first season of GOT, I liked it but was still wary about it since /lit/ has told me it was shit so surely the TV show MUST be shit too. I ended up watching until S04 (since after that is when people say it goes to shit) and I loved it.

So I decided to give the books a try, 1 month later and I've read everything, including the Dunk & Egg stories, you guys lied to me.
ASOIAF is better than anything Tolkien ever wrote, it's better than the Iliad or Odyssey, better than Count of Monte Cristo or any of Dumas' other works.

This series will 100% be remembered and praised to be superior to Tolkien and any other "fantasy" series that has released to date, it was excellent and (You) lied to me about this fat bastard's work only because the obese man is a feminist.

[Anonymous No.21806501]

>>21806482
I really enjoy ASOIAF as well anon. There are parts of it I find genuinely beautiful and moving. I wonder when does genre fiction become literature? Is it impossible?

[Anonymous No.21806520]

>>21806482
The entire series has no point. It just meanders aimlessly. Legend of the stuff that happened. All the interesting characters were killed off for shock value

[Anonymous No.21806528]

>>21806482
Yeah it’s genuinely a great series. The contrarian hate was unfounded. The show ending deserved criticism however and also George’s insanely long hiatus.

[Anonymous No.21806529]

>>21806482

[Anonymous No.21806535]

>>21806520
I think Dany is still very interesting. Euron, Jamie, Cersei, Young Griff, Baelish, Varys, and Doran as well

[Anonymous No.21806538]

>>21806529
>Tolkien is “literary genius”
>doesn’t understand yin yang
Tolkien queers are so cringe

[Anonymous No.21806542]

>>21806529
Martin is better than Tolkien thoughever

[Anonymous No.21806549]

>>21806529
No.

[Anonymous No.21806596]

>>21806482
I liked it too, although I thought it peaked with A Storm of Swords.

I actually liked A Feast For Crowd, the parts about the Riverlands at least, but Dance started to fuck up with storyline multiplication and the stupid Dornish prince plot. But at least Bran chapters stopped being total shit.

It's pretty good as far as the genre goes. But pic related is the absolute peak of the genre, check that out too.

[Anonymous No.21806609]

>>21806535
>I think Dany is still very interesting.
Dany was never interesting.

For one, where whole motivation is cringe. "Oh I used to be a slave (she was actually the guest of a rich man) so now I must free the slaves". It is like everything that comes out of her mouth was designed by a fine cringe artisan, specially crafted to be as cringey as possible. It is a blatant attempt to shoehorn in modern values anachronistically into a medieval setting. "Oh but it's deconstructed later" deconstruct your stupidity, she is by far the most Mary Sue character in the series.

[Anonymous No.21806611]

>>21806596
I started reading this and so far it is nothing but gay autistic romance.

I am not thrilled.

[Anonymous No.21806624]

>>21806611
>Romance
>Gay Romance
I don't know what part of the story you could even be referring to.

There is very little that could be called romance in entire series.

[Anonymous No.21806627]

>>21806596
Thanks, I'll try it out.

[Anonymous No.21806634]

>>21806482
I enjoy reading it solely to understand the schizo theories that claim Daenarys will go mad because she’s a woman and burn down King’s Landing.

[Anonymous No.21806636]

>>21806634
She 100% will go mad.

[Anonymous No.21806649]

>>21806482
> better than Count of Monte Cristo or any of Dumas' other works.
Dumas had a ghostwriter named August Maquet. He’s the real author of Count and Musketeers. He tried to fight for his name to be put on these books but Dumas was in bed with the rich and powerful so he failed and is now almost forgotten.

[Anonymous No.21806655]

>>21806636
the accursed T*rg blood has doomed her

[Anonymous No.21806669]

>>21806596
> But pic related is the absolute peak of the genre
Lmao
>>21806627
I hope you don’t fail for the meme.

[Anonymous No.21806697]

>>21806611
>T. Has not read it but fell for the "transhomolit" slur dreamed up by competing fan boys.

There are certainly legitimate criticisms of the series, particularly the opening which is slow and not helped by the time leap and the ridiculous spellings, but this is not one.

[Anonymous No.21806742]

I will resist reading it until the book series is completely finished. I don't want to get eternal blue balls.

[Anonymous No.21806788]

>>21806742
Smart. It won't be finished, btw.

[Anonymous No.21806818]

>>21806482
>ASOIAF is better than anything Tolkien ever wrote, it's better than the Iliad or Odyssey, better than Count of Monte Cristo or any of Dumas' other works.
I don't much like any of the works mentioned here. They are okay, at best.

[Anonymous No.21807233]

>>21806788
Then I just won't read it. Simple as that.

[Anonymous No.21807609]

>>21806609
You haven't read the books.

[Anonymous No.21807632]

I remember thinking the first books was slightly generic, would it be worth it to go ahead and jump into the second book at some point?
Rewatching GOT and it's surprisingly good up until season 4. I always remember it as only being good for the first season or 2. It does sort of scratch an itch i've had for a while when it comes to the fantasy genre.

[Anonymous No.21807640]

>>21807609
I did, 20 fucking years ago when they were released.

[Anonymous No.21807651]

>>21807609
In fact, I used to tell people I liked this shit in high school and nobody knew what it was until netflix made a series, not every faggot normie says they like it. I waited with baited breath for damn ever for book 5. I picked it up, read 1 chapter, and put it down. There's no going back to this.

[Anonymous No.21807652]

>>21806596
i'm worried that if I start reading a genre at it's peak, that I won't enjoy other books as much :(

[Anonymous No.21807663]

>>21806624
Book 1:

First chapter: little boy is raped by a pogue.

Second chapter: Gay autistic woodsman romance

Third chapter: Ah my beloved gay boyfriend oh I hope he doesn't get in trouble because of me...

[Anonymous No.21807667]

>>21806697
See >>21807663

[Anonymous No.21807721]

>>21806535
> Euron
Generic creepy badguy
>Jamie
Generic antihero
>Cersei
Simply an annoying cunt supreme. Also the worst motivation of any character "my husband had sex with me now I am scarred for life" and "oh my precious children! *smoochy noises"
>Young Griff
A character so unmemorable I literally can't even remember them after 20 years
>Baelish
Generic badguy schemer
>Varys
Generic schemer with shifty allegiance
>Doran
Also a character I can't even remember

All the characters are really either just one dimensional charicatures or two dimensional "you thought I was one dimensional, but here is my hidden motivation, which I will, without subtlety, state openly for you, so you will see I actually have two dimensions".

[Anonymous No.21807732]

>>21807721
i disagree

[Anonymous No.21807752]

>>21807732
After 20 years, truly I tell you, all that I remember of the book is a LOT of characters, each of which go on some largely meaningless and very short journey with no personal development, during which they fully plot dump their motivations to whoever is travelling with them, and this is meant to be a dramatic reveal like "oh the rumors are wrong, he's not a jerk, he is actually a good guy".

When I first read it I enjoyed it because it seemed like a complex interweaving of plots. But after being left to reflect on it for so long, I realized that the interweaving of plots was a trick: there was no plot. None of this had any point. It was just like a soap opera, made up as the author went along with deaths and constant reveals played for drama, endlessly, and new characters being drawn up constantly just to continue the cycle.

[Anonymous No.21807756]

Bran's plot is a rip off from Dune.
The house rivalry is just the war of the roses. Jon Snow is just another ripoff character.
At that point, why not read about the war of the roses and dune?

The series has no point, it's deconstruction and well actually it is just typical fantasy. Nothing about it is really that smart compared to the rest of the fantasy genre. The chapter hooks and suspense is good for the first few books but the later aren't and the series is not finished. It won't ever be finished.

[Anonymous No.21807762]

>>21807752
name 15 fantasy series that are just as good or better.

[Anonymous No.21807790]

>>21807762
In no order:
1. Dune
2. Tolkien
3. Foundation/Aasimov
4. Heinlein
5. Ringworld
6. Revelation Space
7. Anne Rice (even though it is gay as hell)
8. Mary Shelley's Frankenstein
9. King of Elfland's Daughter
10. Illiad
11. Oedipus Rex
12. Macbeth or Midsummer Knight's dream or anything Shakespeare
13. Death of Arthur
14. Lovecraft's squiddyman mythos
15. And uh... Kafka?

Shit I can't even remember all the pulp fantasy books I read. Unfortunately, a lot of them were worse than ASOIAF, which is more a mark of their utter crappiness than ASOIAF's brilliance

[Anonymous No.21807791]

>>21806482
I read them all too but they started reading like scripts more than books, and I had a hard time caring about anything or anyone in the book because it was all just miseryporn for fags who want to feel vindicated by non-stop awful things happening one after the other for no reason. It's a disappointing mess and I had a hard time figuring out how any of the shit going on was relevant, thematically cohesive or why I should care and when I finished them all I only had a small part of me that wanted to see how it ended, but I figured "why bother?" and didn't even try watching the show.

[Anonymous No.21807795]

I love the early seasons of the show, but reading the books is such a chore. The lore is so interesting, but I just can't do it.

[Anonymous No.21807800]

>>21806596
Don't bother reading this book. Bakker's prose is good but as far as the characters and events go, it's all shit. All the sex scenes (of which there are many) are ALL cuckshit. Every single one has cuck/NTR in it, the guy's got an obsessive fixation on it.
Furthermore most of the book is a bunch of idiots thinking everyone around them is a fool while thinking about their own genius plan only for it to fall apart next chapter by other idiots who think they're geniuses, then there's Achamian who does nothing but get anxious and worried about everything while accomplishing nothing.

[Anonymous No.21807814]

>>21807791
Hear hear, my feelings exactly

[Anonymous No.21807992]

Well serves you right for trusting bunch of internet besserwissers

[Anonymous No.21808012]

Rumors say the fat bastard has given the outline to the publishers and that if (when) he croaks from obese heart failure they can finish the books on a ghost writer.
At this point i thinks it's more realistic to hope that this happens and is true than it is to hope this lard ass son of a lipid to ever finish writing this shit.

[Anonymous No.21808076]

>>21806482
It's been 12 years since the last book, and there's 2 books left to be published. The series could have been legendary, but the fat dumbass cashed in on TV deals and couldn't be bothered to actually finish his magnum opus. He will 100% definitely die before the final book is published, thus tarnishing the entire series by having a ghost writer complete it.

[Anonymous No.21808082]

>>21806482
A man of culture as well.
Just wait until Winds comes out in the next two years and suddenly everyone always loved the series.

[Anonymous No.21808119]

>>21806482
Ok now read Mistborn

[Anonymous No.21808130]

It honestly is a 10/10 by the end of ASOS. The fall in quality afterwards was astounding but it was clear he didn't give a shit after getting his TV contract.

[Anonymous No.21808162]

>>21808076
I can't believe what he's working on instead. A 1000 page history book of the Targaryens with a sequel in the works. 3 Dunk and Egg books. It's baffling. all these different shows I get not wanting to work at his age. But he is working; just not on the thing people want.

[Anonymous No.21808172]

>>21808162
That's my point, he has literally made the decision not to finish the main series of books. He's obliterated his own legacy and readers should be rightly pissed off at him. What an absolute asshole.

[Anonymous No.21808255]

>>21806482
The first chapter features the line "he put the dagger between his teeth. The cold steel comforted him."

I'm not going to pretend they're completely devoid of value, but if that shit ass line didn't nearly make you put the book down on its own, you just have low standards of quality. Which is fine, realistically low standards just makes it easier to find stuff worth reading for you. But you do have low standards, and have to adjust how you discuss media accordingly.

[Anonymous No.21808274]

>>21808012
Cite your rumor because all I've ever heard is him going "if I die you can all get fucked, my vengeful ghost will manifest to sue your ass if you try to finish it"

[Anonymous No.21808290]

>>21806482
I'm not saying this or that about GRRM or ASoIaF. Is that clear? Now then.

4chan is literally 20% extreme rights, 15% extreme lefts, a generous scattering of 15% of random extremists of other governing cultures (this entire 50% pool also includes the mentally ill), 35% bots and paid (guerilla) marketers/political influencers, and on a good day 10% average people of any culture. The remaining 5%? Thats your genuine above average (noteworthy/genuinely insightful) posters of a given topic. And that's not per board that of all boards culminated. Genuinely good advice here is rare. But this board can actually have some insights and recs SOLEY if you're looking for philosophy and classic literature, and academic poetry.

As far as high fantasy fiction goes, just use Google to figure out the parameters you want in what you'd consider enjoyable or inspiring fiction and trust what top recs or "hidden gems" it gives over this board. Any fucking day, there's no ifs ands or buts there.

[Anonymous No.21808325]

>>21808290
Virtually every single one of those "extreme lefts" are paid posters looking to either push young men towards rightwing ideology or sow division in western society. They aren't even subtle about it, you have to be one genuinely stupid motherfucker to not realize it. They're on the same level as Nigerian prince scams that include obvious typos in their emails because if you're smart enough to wonder why the Nigerian prince doesn't know how to use spell check, you're too smart for the kind of scam they're running.

[Anonymous No.21808338]

>>21808325
What? I already gave the paid posters a huge percentage.

It may be be sad to admit but there are genuine extremists on both sides of the democratic/republic political spectrum who would have a hard time discussing or promoting any of their ideologies outside of 4chan and similar niche forums

[Anonymous No.21808341]

>>21808338
You gave genuine extreme leftists a mere 5% less than genuine extrem ringwongers. That in itself is hilariously out of whack with reality, but you also suggested out of every 10 posters, about 1.5 are leftists.

[Anonymous No.21808342]

>>21808325
They're a bunch of university larptrots, and occasionally a larptankie with fewer than 3 years in the party. None of them are reverse agents. The reverse agents are conspicuously pretending to be hyperliberal and a visible from matching the pastiche fantasy rather than the reality of hyperliberality. You can also tell from the boards where people with genuine interests in radical social configurations hang out, and the way they talk, that those people are actually just working class and want to smuggle their meds in to the UK. That and diaper fetishists. But if rightwingers were offended by transsexual urine porn they wouldn't have anything to wank to, would they?

[Anonymous No.21808355]

>>21808341
I would be inclined to believe you must lean right. Just an objective observation. Because if you take a step back from the spectrum entirely and view the posts objectively you will see that, especially when doing as I said and separating the extremists from the paid posters, there really are more extreme right posters than extreme left. Not significantly more but enough to make it noticeable. You can't include paid posters in the base extremist percentages because they have different incentives.

Also that makes no sense because 50% of the spectrum is unspecified in their political affiliation. Your made up ratio is just a product of, again what I'm inclined to believe is, a product of your bias and means nothing to my post nor point.

[Anonymous No.21808361]

>>21808341
Also please don't forget I'm talking of all of 4chan, not /lit/ exclusively. If that helps with any misunderstanding at all.

[Anonymous No.21808369]

>>21808342
This post embodies a brain molded heavily by 4chan.

And if you were to tell me it's not, then I must imagine the dissonance between your anonymous posting personality and your irl personality is severe and would easily be qualifiable for pathological or delusional.

[Anonymous No.21808377]

>>21808355
>>21808361
Actual extreme leftist fantasies require heavy organisation. Daddy Stalin can't Fall from the Moon and Kill the Rich…he didn't historically…and the rich aren't even the problem. National and Racial imaginaries are more actable in every day language. Hardly anyone considers hanging the last owner with the guts of the last PMC to be a real statement of intention and planned action. People comprehend the idea of "Kill all negros" and that comprehension has latency in the local lynchings their grandfather participated in. Fascism operates at a human comprehensible scale because it is about declaring this person the representation of the universal other and sacrificing him brutally right now (or ritualistically humilitating him). Communist extremes most people don't even comprehend the territory. Like I'm the only cunt here who knows about mispricing in the NEP Soviet agricultural economy and what that caused. People get bored before they ring around, get some trucks, and go out in orderly manners—monstrosity requires that bodies of citizens form organisations of specific function.

[Anonymous No.21808380]

>>21808369
Wrong dissonance. Comradely discussion versus factory floor. Its no less dissociative than being a slave in the market but a citizen in the agora. (If you get the joke.)

[Anonymous No.21808409]

>>21808380
That's actually great wordplay, but actively demeaning pests is like climbing the molehill rather than the mountain when on this site. Regardless of how astute the observations are.

[Anonymous No.21808415]

>>21808377
Just say you think all left extremists are organized and likely paid. I don't need your hypothesis (conspiracy, really), I didn't give my reasoning.

[Anonymous No.21808421]

>>21808415
>Just say you think all left extremists are organized and likely paid.
I don't think they're organised or paid. Organisation takes more effort than larpers are capable of.

People paying would demand a minimum quality.

[Anonymous No.21808442]

>>21808421
You must if you think I've under represented them by not considering the percentage of organized/paid posters to be a (greater) part of the extreme left percentage I gave.

[Anonymous No.21808448]

>>21806482
>>21806520

the duality of exaggeration

[Anonymous No.21808459]

>>21808076
>>21808162
>>21808172
I assumed he realized people will probably be outraged no matter how he ends the books, just based on the reaction of the way the show ends. Maybe that's what he had been planning on doing and has to do some revision.

[Anonymous No.21808471]

He really needs a more assertive editor

[Anonymous No.21808500]

Vargo Hoat enjoyerth where you at?

[Anonymous No.21808504]

B O I L E D L E A T H E R

[Anonymous No.21808506]

>>21808459
Ah yes, just like Tolkien was terrified to finish The Lord of the Rings because of how bad the ending was. Oh, wait.

[Anonymous No.21808512]

>>21808506
I liked the scouring of the shire. What's wrong with it? The end of GOT series was almost universally hated.

[Anonymous No.21808541]

>>21806627
Bakker is sffg meme, because the author has been accused of misogyny and also pic related. No one has actually read him

[Anonymous No.21808610]

>>21807790
Wheel of Time. It's the superior ASOIAF

[Anonymous No.21808770]

>>21806482
The books are fine. Great, even. I assume most haters are TV-only fags who think it's an accurate adaptation.

[Anonymous No.21808937]

>>21808610
Remove every female pov chapter, and it might be bearable.
>verification not required

[Anonymous No.21809022]

>>21808610
It's worse than ASOIAF

[Anonymous No.21809194]

>>21806482
>So I decided to give the books a try, 1 month later and I've read everything, including the Dunk & Egg stories
Holy fuck... how can you read that much? It'd take me three months to read one of these.

[Anonymous No.21809196]

>>21808255
I guess since I'm ESL the treshhold for what can be considered "low standards" is probably different, good point, I don't necessarily disagree.
(My native tongue is Spanish, but read exclusively in english because I just think it flows better in my head and the pictures come in easier. Of course things like "Don Quijote" or "Cien años de soledad" I've read in spanish)

[Anonymous No.21809210]

>>21806482
>, 1 month later and I've read everything, including the Dunk & Egg stories,
No. You haven't.

[Anonymous No.21809373]

Anons, Im a sucker for "oh shit" plot twists and recontextualization of previous scenes like in asoiaf and attack on titan
Are there any other books you guys reccomend where that's a big factor? Only thing I've been suggested was the blade itself and Malazan, which I'm slowly working through. Big man George said he learned the cliffhanger shtick through his time writing for television. So is it uncommon in the book space? I only read non-fiction history usually, so I don't know too much.

[Anonymous No.21809550]

>>21806482
>This series will 100% be remembered and praised to be superior to Tolkien and any other "fantasy" series
It won't unless george gets off his fat ass an actually writes an ending to it.

[Anonymous No.21809869]

>>21806596
>>21806697
Stop shilling your cuck fantasy goyslop you deranged autist

[Anonymous No.21809897]

>>21807663
> So obsessed with gays he reads gayness into scenes where there is none.
You might be a closet case my friend. Bakker is excellent.

[Anonymous No.21809997]

>>21808459
That depends, anon. I'm assuming he gave Dumb & Dumber the rough outline for the story's ending and fans hated it. He's too proud to change it though, even though it'd be the easiest thing in the world. Better to write other things he'll be praised for, and always pretend the next book is around the corner.

He wrote three good books, Feast is where the suckage started, and Dance was meh at best. He'll never finish this story.

[Anonymous No.21810005]

>>21809373
Shinsekai Yori is great on this. Only exists as a fan translation iirc, but it's good as fuck

[Anonymous No.21810013]

>>21809210
I bet he has. I was devouring his books at a rate of one every few days when I first discovered him. If you read every free second, you can easily read ASOIAF 1-5 in 12,14 days, and the rest of his Westeros-related stuff in a week.

[Anonymous No.21810062]

>>21810005
Shinsekai yori lore is so abstract is genuinely too hard for me invested. Rat Hitler couldnt compensate. Game of thrones and shingeki felt a lot more grounded in the sense its "medieval but dragons and a witch now and then" and "old Germany but big wall and giant zombies"

Anything more filters me. Hence why I can't into scifi or high fantasy. Sad!

[Anonymous No.21810090]

>>21810062
That sounds like a terrible affliction. No LotR or Shinsekai for you, I guess.

[Anonymous No.21810672]

>>21806596
Based. Assblasted troons SCRAMBLING to try and shut down this post.

[Anonymous No.21810947]

>>21806596
BAKKER CHADS RISE UP

[Anonymous No.21810953]

>>21806697
I mean I love the books but there is a nonzero amount of buttfucking, rape, and buttrape in the book.

[Anonymous No.21810957]

>>21807756
It has parallels to Paul's story but the trope of the prince on the run gaining insight into the magical world is very old

[Anonymous No.21810960]

>>21807790
Foundation sucks. Asimov's only gems were short stories

[Anonymous No.21810965]

>>21807800
wtf are you talking about achamian spergs the fuck out

[Anonymous No.21811116]

>>21806482
Ok cool but Dune is far better than GOT. Just a friendly Rec from somebody who appreciates GOT.

[Anonymous No.21811119]

>>21806501
Dune is high literature IMO.

[Anonymous No.21811122]

>>21806649
No way…is there a legit source. I only say this because isn’t Dumas Black? What the fuck like I try so hard to give nibs the benefit of the doubt.

[Anonymous No.21811127]

>>21807632
Season 5 is still good iirc >>21807790
Based Dune at the top

[Anonymous No.21811132]

>>21809373
Just read Dune.

[Anonymous No.21811168]

>>21806520
Isn't this supposed to be the /lit/ board? How have none of you see the layers of meaning to his books. And I'm not even arguing they're great, only that they are obviously and clearly not meaningless.
Dany symbolizes mother nature (nurturing mixed with nature's fury), the wall is death (winter is coming), and the throne is the question of being. The whole book is about the riddle of life and how to live. Who gets to sit on the throne? Each character is an archetype or possible answer to that question. You read the book to answer for yourself what kind of person you want to be.
Yes, this is only the most basic analysis. But it's the least I can be arsed to write out. How it is that no one sees any of the underlying meaning in these books baffles me. How old are you that you haven't yet learned to see symbols? Do you not have dreams?

[Anonymous No.21811248]

>>21806520
Jaime, Brienne, Jon, Bran, Davos, Barristan and Tyrion beg to differ.

[Anonymous No.21811258]

>>21806596
I'm unironically excited for Bran's chapters in WOW

[Anonymous No.21811567]

>>21806482
This is one of the only times I have ever cared about characters in a series, like how all of the Stark children go through terrible events but still try to survive. Also in the first three books, it is amazing how GRRM maneuvers so many different characters and groups all over the place without losing any cohesion (until the next two books came around). How A Storm of Swords ends in a climax after climax of events that have been set up thousands of pages prior is most "into" a book I've ever been.

[Anonymous No.21811603]

>>21808290
But this board told me about R. Scott Bakker before he became a meme here and that was actually a good rec.

[Anonymous No.21811611]

>>21809373
Red Rising. It isn't particularly literary, but it's a lot of fun. First book is by far the weakest.

[Anonymous No.21811684]

>>21811127
I'm currently watching season five and it's shit

[Anonymous No.21811693]

>>21806596
this meme really needs to die, I wasted two hours of my life reading that shit

[Anonymous No.21811721]

>>21806529
I prefer Tolkien to Martin and OP's remarks about the Odyssey are unfounded, but this is too unkind to the old obese man
He knew how to craft good dialogue

[Anonymous No.21811747]

Does anyone have the copypasta where George gets BTFO’d by a Tolkien student, thus ending in a parody of the Daenerys dysentery scene?

[Anonymous No.21811755]

>>21806482
>this work is superior to...
It doesnt have an ending.

[Anonymous No.21811871]

>>21811721
He wrote a scene where two characters use the most blatant doublespeak and then still has one of the characters "translate" the doublespeak for the reader's benefit because that's just how dumb he thinks his readers are. This was shit like "Gosh, the gargoyles over the city walls are marvelous aren’t they Tyrion"
"Hmm" thought Tyrion. "Of course he means that I have been being watched since I entered the city".
This was in the second book if I remember right. If he knew how to craft good dialogue, he sure as shit forgot how real quick.

[Anonymous No.21812113]

>>21806482
It's good but not for everyone. The narrative style made me give up quite early.

[Anonymous No.21812215]

>>21811747
I don't think a "Tolkien student" is in any position to ridicule literally anybody

[Anonymous No.21812279]

>>21811122
He was like 1/4 black at most.

[Anonymous No.21812318]

>>21806482
>ASOIAF is great in spite of /lit/ hating on it
Yes. The best book is unironically A Feast for Crows.
>ASOIAF is better than anything Tolkien ever wrote, it's better than the Iliad or Odyssey, better than Count of Monte Cristo or any of Dumas' other works.
Oh.... it's bait. That's sad. Well I actually like this series.

[Anonymous No.21812331]

>>21807762
Book of the New Sun
LotR
Dune
Dying Earth
Fafhrd and Grey Mouser
Lyonesse
The Wizard Knight
Worm Oruboros
Sword of Wellaran
Conan
Dark Eidilon and Other Stories
Narnia
Space Trilogy
Gotrek and Felix
King of Elfland's Daughter

[Anonymous No.21812764]

>>21806596
Isn’t this guy a major cuckold Canuck?

[Anonymous No.21812825]

>>21811611
I picked up the first book and couldn't get over the dumb color-based classism. But people keep reccomending me it over and over. So I might give it another shot.

>>21811132
I read the first one and was bored out of my mind. Why do the characters behave like emotionless robots?

[Anonymous No.21812872]

>>21812825
The premise of Red Rising is undoubtedly dumb, but once you get past that it delivers memorable characters, lots of solid plot twists, and a very propulsive story. It's sort of Warhammer 40k, toned down a bit, with 8 foot tall super humans LARPing as ancient Greeks and Romans.

The first book is fairly different because it's more a better Ender's Game, Hunger Games, academy type fiction. It was hamstrung by being edited for the YA market, a move publisher reversed in the second book.

So it's more something like Star Wars, Warhammer, etc. less hard sci-fi.

[Anonymous No.21812871]

her cunt was the world

[Anonymous No.21812880]

>>21812872
Alright, anon. You've convinced me. I'll check it out. Mainly because I'm desperate for content. Cheers.

[Anonymous No.21812884]

>>21806482
They hate GRRM because he's a liberal, that's it. He's a romantic at heart really and the series is even optimistic. Read what you like ; don't get overwhelmed by the opinions of moralists here.

[Anonymous No.21812886]

Ahem… “Sunset”

[Anonymous No.21812888]

>>21806596
This is a good book but you can't recommend it here. Some/sffg/ fan boys got triggered by it and false flag spam it constantly so that it has become a meme.

Since people can't think up original criticisms, as that might require reading the book and thinking, it is "soi, beta, cuck, tranny, lib," because, of course, everything bad is these things.

I'm not a Sanderson fan, but this is the same exact language used there, "it's beta soi tranny cuck shit!". ASOIAF got popular, normies like it? It's "beta cuck soi tranny!" Stephenson? "Beta cuck interracial soi!"

It especially holds it an author has ever said anything bad about the Orange God Emperor, which most of them had because he's an obese con man who appeals to retards.

[Anonymous No.21813180]

>>21806529
geez, Tolkien fanboys are truly insufferable retards

[Anonymous No.21813344]

I don't understand how so many fucking midwits think the last two books start to wander or lack cohesion or some dumb shit. The books could not be more tight. What's happening in book 4 and 5 is the *real* game of thrones is begining, all the true players are starting to come out, all the factions who knew Baratheon-Lannister rule couldn't last more than a couple lifetimes because of the contradictions built into it and it's lack of tradition or overwhelming force and the unstable individuals involved. They let the inevitable civil war play itself out and now they're making their moves.
The Dorne-Essks-Targ restoration plot that's existed in secret for decades.
The methodical Littlefinger plot of a puppeted Stark-Arryn alliance.
Euron the pirate conqueror.
They're all entering the fray to duke it out and I can't wait.
And of course at the end of their struggle it will turn out there are players of an even older game between the Others and life or fire or some shit and, just like the details of the civil war didn't matter for the players of the longer game, the details of all these wars don't matter to the players of the true game of ice and fire.
Damn Winds gonna be good.

[Anonymous No.21813474]

>>21813344
and in the larger context of literature and life, these books don’t matter. Congrats. You cucked yourself.

[Anonymous No.21813578]

>>21812331
>no Gormenghast

[Anonymous No.21813587]

>>21810953
Not in the first chapters though and demon rape is not "gay romance."

[Anonymous No.21813660]

>>21813344
This is how I felt when I finished Dance, fucking excited. I had gotten a little jaded with the series during the long wait. What was it, 2004 to 2011? But George was back and the story was as strong as ever.

Storm of Swords was the climax of the first act, you could see a second climax building.

But I finished Dance shortly after release in 2011.

I don't give a fuck about the story anymore. The show had a shitty, rushed ending and that's the ending of the series now because Winds simply isn't coming out. It has been immanent since at least 2016, over half a decade ago.

Miura died before finishing Berserk, with the series peaking in 1997-2000 with Lost Children and Conviction. We didn't see the end to that.

Bakker went to the mental ward and/or the woods, and so we don't get the No God, although he at least ended the story in an ok spot. The second series was less consistent; Bakker peaked 2003-2006. We won't find out what the weird ending meant.

GRRM peaked with Clash and Storm in 1997-2000. We aren't going to see how that ends.

I can't help but think we've entered a degenerate era where such long spanning epics are no longer possible. I could see all three being canceled today if they tried to publish, although GRRM is the safest by a wide margin from that. I don't think Berserk could get published in the US if it wasn't already big and Bakker might very well be canceled if he returns. More than that, maybe our enviornment is just too noisy for long stories.

[Anonymous No.21813847]

[Anonymous No.21813879]

>>21807652
this is my problem since I started seriously reading sci fi with Dune

[Anonymous No.21813896]

>>21812825
They don’t? Paul is a mentat though and trained in Benne Gesseret techniques. They behavior is like political actors

[Anonymous No.21813905]

>>21811684
Did something significant to Jon at the end of 4? If so yeah 4 is the last good one

[Anonymous No.21813932]

>>21813896
Listen mate I love Dune but let's not pretend like there's a big focus on emotional resonance or anything. Even between Paul and Chani or Leto and Jessica. Don't you remember the passages in Heretics and Chapterhouse about how dangerous emotions are seen by Bene Gesserit? Between the grip of prescience and other memories, it doesn't really leave a lot of room for the self.

[Anonymous No.21814016]

>>21813932
Leto is very upset about them trying to take the life of his son.

Yueh betrays them out of the need to know if his Wanna is free of the Baron's torture, and he saves Paul out of love for the family.

Paul eventually is able to mourn for his father.

Paul is moved to tears after killing Jamis and getting rebuked by both Stilgar and his mother.

I think it has enough emotional resonance, not that I was looking for that kind of thing when I first read it.

[Anonymous No.21814043]

>>21806596
You shouldn't have posted that anon

[Anonymous No.21814048]

>>21809194
They are long but very easy reads.

[Anonymous No.21814103]

>>21811122
August Maquet actually had a ghost writer too, a Haitian writer named Jean Betraville.

[Anonymous No.21814180]

>>21814016
I suppose it does have more than the sequels, but it's just that the sequels go so far away from the individual and into the realm of the infinite, the fate of the human race etc, that it's hard to recall the moments in the first book that try to tug on your heartstrings. It all seems so inconsequential by comparison. But for me, it was obvious from the first that it would get so much bigger than Paul and Leto and Jessica and Stilgar. Hell you're not even told what happens to most of them in the jump between books. One moment they're there, the next they're just dead for 3500 years.

[Anonymous No.21814209]

>>21814043
What the fuck? I feel like I'm having a stroke trying to parse all those made up words.

[Anonymous No.21814265]

>>21808459
With how many people are into the books and how much they anticipate it there will always be a lot of people who are disappointed or will be mad. After a couple of years those things then die down and people would accept the ending and think it's fine. Ironically by waiting so long he'll probably never get to see people coming to terms with it being over and accepting it for what it is. Instead if he even releases it he'll get shit on and then die.

[Anonymous No.21814513]

>>21814209
What're you confused about low IQ? Maybe ChatGPT can help.

[Anonymous No.21814518]

>>21814513
This is unironically better.

[Anonymous No.21814524]

>>21814518
Of course, because now your feeble mind can finally comprehend it.

[Anonymous No.21814652]

>>21814524
Please address me as my proper name, Anouminouse of the Glaadrigoring Heneyukian Keep, when replying to me.

[Anonymous No.21814668]

>>21811871
He has worse moments and better ones

[Anonymous No.21814711]

>>21811871
If you removed that Tyrion line it would be unclear whether Tyrion understood the implication even if you the reader did.

[Anonymous No.21814935]

>>21813905
is he brought back in the books as well? I remember it not feeling right.

[Anonymous No.21814949]

>>21814935
the last Jon chapter published is when he is murdered. the resurrection will be in TWOW.

[Anonymous No.21815399]

Bran ate Jojen

[Anonymous No.21816123]

>>21814518
Literally soulless

[Anonymous No.21816131]

>>21806482
I read books 1-3 when I was 16 and they ruined all fantasy for me. Martin isn't perfect, but his world's history is beyond what Tolkien accomplished in terms of the intricacies of the plot that's actually depicted on the page. The way the community came together and deciphered all these secrets to the extent of completely flying off the rails into insane fanfiction conspiracies is something no other fantasy story has come close to. I reread my favorite chapters so many times because of all the iconic scenes and dialogue that just sent shivers down my spine.
Martin lost control of the plot because he tapped into a fictional world so big that it's like an alternate reality and it's beyond the ability of his mind to focus on for so many years. A healthier man probably could have done it.

[Anonymous No.21816138]

>>21813847
Same thing everyone does, stockpile food and wood for the fire. What else could they do, that you think they should?
I think the previous long winter is so far in the past when the story begins that they've gotten soft and aren't prepared for how bad it could be. I just checked. They're in the midst of a 10-year summer, and the previously longest winters have been 5 years.

[Anonymous No.21816419]

>>21806482
everyone's reading gormenghast, anon, you dont want to miss out on the best fantasy series

[Anonymous No.21816564]

>>21816131
>martin made a world so much bigger and more intricate than tolkien
>the problem is that it was actually too big for him
>a healthier man probably could have done it
like.............. tolkien?

[Anonymous No.21816581]

>>21806482
>ASOIAF is better than anything Tolkien ever wrote, it's better than the Iliad or Odyssey, better than Count of Monte Cristo or any of Dumas' other works.
This might be one of the worst takes I have ever witnessed in my life, certainly on this website however. I can't even begin to describe how wrong this is. You've either never read any of the GOAT's, you're one of the most pretentious pillocks to ever disgrace the internet, or you're GRRM, in which case
>webm rel

[Anonymous No.21816627]

>>21816564
>reading comprehension issue
No, retard

[Anonymous No.21816630]

>>21811168
>Isn't this supposed to be the /lit/ board?
Yes, and no one here reads.

[Anonymous No.21816634]

>>21816131
martin is great because of... fandom? maybe head over to ao3 anon you'll like it there

[Anonymous No.21816636]

>>21816634
Don't know what that is, retard

[Anonymous No.21816653]

>>21806482
ASOIAF is unironically great because it is unfinished. Martin did the opposite of writing himself into a corner. He expanded too much. It is the lore and fan theories that make it great

[Anonymous No.21816702]

>>21816627
calling people retards is not a very convincing argument, especially after making the astounding claim that an author is actually just SO good at their craft that even THEY THEMSELVES can't handle the scope and gravity and immensity of it. in fact, that's kind of laughable.

[Anonymous No.21816773]

>>21816702
Don't care, didn't ask, retard

[Anonymous No.21816775]

>>21816773
I felt the same about martin's rape and shit fetishes, but there you are.

[Anonymous No.21817205]

>>21816775
Cope_

[Anonymous No.21817263]

>>21817205
Sneed

[Anonymous No.21817278]

>>21806482
1-3 were great. Feast and dance were terrible.

[Anonymous No.21817299]

>>21811168
>Do you not have dreams?
I think you'd be surprised.

[Anonymous No.21818109]

>>21816581
really, every one of these threads should end with this webm kek

[Anonymous No.21818120]

>>21818109
They do usually start and end with stupid /tv/ posters, yes.

[Anonymous No.21818129]

>>21818109
Ad hominem. The best they can do.

[Anonymous No.21818350]

>>21806482
Don’t trust /lit/

[Anonymous No.21818430]

>>21806482
Not better that LoDR, but yes it's a great series.

[Anonymous No.21819427]

>>21808610
Based WotChad

[Anonymous No.21819498]

I am genuinely saddened and surprised to see that Tolkien’s depth and mastery are totally lost on /lit/. Martins story is fine and all but it doesn’t even attempt the scope of Tolkien. I doubt Martin understands Tolkien. It’s very sad. Just shows how well Tolkien understood the world.

Anyway I won’t insult anyone who doesn’t like Tolkien better, but id encourage you to look deeper

[Anonymous No.21819552]

>>21816131
This.

I can't say it's always the case, because I didn't read Bakker until several years after ASOIAF, but I definetly ended up dropping most fantasy after being an avid fan earlier. Reading Bakker just made the comparison worse.

[Anonymous No.21819617]

>Thousand-page novels based around multiple characters you're supposed to become attached to
>Over a decade since the last book and still only care about Stannis

[Anonymous No.21819619]

>>21819498
Tolkien wrote children's stories, anon.

[Anonymous No.21819671]

>>21819619
I think you should read The Little Prince, anon. Not precisely children’s lit, but styled as such to mog on highbrow fools like yourself.

[Anonymous No.21819763]

>>21812888
>It especially holds it an author has ever said anything bad about the Orange God Emperor, which most of them had because he's an obese con man who appeals to retards.

And with this sentence alone, I now know who has the right of it when I was otherwise on the fence

I won’t be touching your cuck shit

[Anonymous No.21820190]

>>21819498
Tolkien's worldbuilding is unparalleled but his novels are basic. They are clean, simple, and beautiful, which is good, there should be stories like that and he deserves to be held in high regard. But they have no intrigue, suspense, or humour. And I have no interest in reading fictional history books.
Martin on the other hand is his reflection in a way. He is a laughably inferior scholar, not even a scholar at all, but he is a more experienced storyteller who worked in different worlds and genres, and he went to those cynical places Tolkien wasn't willing to go, and someone had to do that. Sex is always cringe in fiction, but he tries to make it real to the characters, he can't ignore it in the context of the kind of story he's writing.
And what Martin accomplished is a story whose plot towers over the rest of the genre as much as Tolkien's worldbuilding does. Martin puts us in the minds of vastly different characters in vastly different places that would each of them be novels of their own in the hands of lesser authors. They could not manage the combination of scale, detail, and realism that he's managed while maintaining a consistent level of quality and always keeping you wanting to turn the page.
But at the end of the day there are many masters in this genre who are all good at different things. They should all be respected for what they've done rather than trying to claim one is supreme over the rest.

[Anonymous No.21820203]

>>21806482
Good bait.

[Anonymous No.21820303]

>>21808459
"If you plant hints that the cook is the murderer, but in the end your readers find out about it and call it, you can't just change your ending and say that the maid did it, it doesn't make sense"

Maybe people were outraged at the ending because it was a fucking garbage mess of an horribly written dumpster fire that lacked all the subtelties that the book would have had? Just a thought.

[Anonymous No.21820310]

>>21810005
It's worth learning nip just for this. It's such a great story.

[Anonymous No.21820573]

>>21816131
>ruined all fantasy
Martin's worldbuilding isn't even that great, his character work is decent, even great at times. Plot-wise, he is moving at a snail's pace. There are chapters that feel like nothing happened, unironically.

>The way the community came together and deciphered all these secrets to the extent of completely flying off the rails into insane fanfiction conspiracies is something no other fantasy story has come close to
Because he doesn't write the sequels, the fandom has nothing to do but write badly written fanfiction instead of actually reading the sequels and having a proper end. This is not something to be proud of.

>Martin lost control of the plot because he tapped into a fictional world so big
Not really. Stop making excuses for the lazy faggot.

[Anonymous No.21820598]

>>21806596
The thing about Bakker is that you get these flashes of what might have been an actually good story; a vivid description of a battle here, a dramatic scene that delivers there, and the conceit of the main character being tormented by glimpses into the mythic lore of the setting in his dreams is a compelling way to deliver exposition, and build up the threat of the ultimate enemy ... but its all just drowned out by mountains of shit.

You have to wade through vast quantities of pretentious pseudo-intellectual gibberish about the innermost nature of man and life and birth and death and so on and so forth for every sliver of good prose. And every chapter is like this. There's this constant breathless quality to Bakker's narration, like every moment has to be more powerful and profound and revelatory than the last, but of course after the thousandth earth-shattering emotional revelation the thousandth fucking character goes through it all just feels impossibly naff. A good editor would have excised a hundred thousand words from these books and they would be infinitely better for it.

Here's a case in point for you, just came across this:

>Awe is the heart aimed at all horizons. Awe is how we belong to what beggars our conception. Awe redeems the vacancy of our imperium, lets us hope and hate as our fathers had hoped and hated, to strive for what the honest heart can comprehend. Awe dares souls to swell beyond the horizon, to shrug away the demented iterations, to believe in what cannot be seen. It calls on us to be what we were and what we remain: Men who can kill for the tale’s sake. So we might dwell in the husk of ancient certainty unto the end of our bloodless days. So we might tremble at beauty, numb to truth.

Jesus Christ what tedious shit. Maybe if this stuff was used sparingly at key moments it would build atmosphere, or at least be bearable, but it's every chapter, all the fucking time, to the point where you just roll your fucking eyes at it. Who does Bakker think he is that we want to read his overwrought ramblings? If he were actually an impressive person with some sort of remarkable life experiences we might trust him to know better than us. Astronauts, for example, aren't necessarily the best writers, but when they wax poetic about what it's like to see the earth from orbit, then fair enough, they have something to say. But the reason I'm reading a fantasy novel by some C-list failed academic is because I want to see his autism go into compelling world-building and medievalism, which, when he pulls his head out of his own arse every so often, he does rather well. But it's far too little far too late.

[Anonymous No.21820661]

>>21819619
Tolkien created an Anglo saxon epic akin to Wagner and the ancient poems. It’s emotion is quite deep and profound and it’s meaning extends far beyond the narrative. It’s an exercise in linguistic development and even word selection has significant meaning down to its use of old and Middle English.

It’s mastery is at a high level and I didn’t begin to notice it until I had read a lot of Wagner and philosophy and older works.

I think this education that is required to grasp Tolkien is no longer provided by the education system. And the cultural moment the boom was written in is totally extant and impossible for an American in particular to notice unless they have spent time living in late Victorian history.

George RR Martin has told a good narrative, or so it seems, it’s not finsihed.

To me it appears to be nothing more than high level soap opera. It’s meaning is no more then ‘guess war is bad not glorious eh?’.

They’re not even the same genre as far as I’m concerned unless the horses and cloaks is genre defining for you.

[Anonymous No.21820729]

>>21820303
If that was the case people would have been outraged for seasons before that, but no, people were eating up the slop.

[Anonymous No.21820806]

>>21819763
Based.

Any realistic sci-fi must have libs STILL triggered by this man in the year 2800. They are seething. You can see it in the made up charges against Trump for being a victim of blackmail. They are desperate.

Meanwhile, the RNC elites are panicking, throwing everything into astroturfing Cucksantis. Has anyone asked him why, since he agrees Trump won in a landslide in 2020, he is undermining him?

2020 exposed the Deep State traitors and cucks. Tons of RINO judges, Pence, Bolton, all deep plants kept close to expose. The rope is coming.

Being triggered by Trump is the sure sign of either being played as a useful idiot by RNC elites, or more often, being a beta cuck lib who can only produce goyslop.

Even if they get him in jail, he has a confirmed 10 incher (trust the media, right?). Somebody is going to be doing the raping, but it ain't who they want.

[Anonymous No.21820824]

I don't understand Martin. If it's a song of fire and ice and the setup is fire vs. ice, doesn't he know that fire always melts ice? So how can ice even be threatening? A white walker will just melt under a dragon's fire breath.

[Anonymous No.21820844]

>>21819498
I can recognize Tolkien's ground breaking originality, and I enjoyed the books, but I wouldn't call them a great literary achievement.

>>21820190
What GRRM did with ASOIAF had been done plenty of times in historical fiction before him, e.g. Shogun, Taipan, and most notably, War and Peace. However, he was unique in bringing this to fantasy, at least with such ability.

He sometimes goes too far into the weeds, but his explanation of military campaigns is great. You have a real sense of the conflict overall, from the levels of leadership down to the levels of the peasantry effected. No one does this sort of detail better.

Some did the grim dark, gritty realism first, like the Black Company (also great), but that didn't work as well and got hackneyed by the third book.

Some have tried on the realism front, e.g. The Red Knight, which is good, but it doesn't pull it off as well. The Second Apocalypse is at its weakest when it tries to mimic these elements, particularly the court intrigue, and is only saved by using a historical war as its model (this despite SA having the best battles and "panoramas" of the genre).

Some fantasy is more literary, e.g. Shadow of the Torturer, the Second Apocalypse, Hyperion (sci-fi but with fantasy elements), etc. But there is merit in wide spanning, panoramic realism as well.

Definitely one of the greats of the genre. I put it near the top. I might even say rereading ASOIAF is more enjoyable, at least books 2-3, than rereading Shadow of the Torturer or The Darkness That Comes Before, but I hold the latter as better books overall in that they achieve more at their best. I feel the same way about War and Peace vs The Brothers Karamazov in Russian lit too, I've read W&P 3.5 times, but thought BK was better, just less apt to make me return.

[Anonymous No.21820877]

>>21820598
>Who does Bakker think he is that we want to read his overwrought ramblings?

I take it your main problem is that you are offended that someone of insufficient status is speaking of philosophical issues in high language?

First, virtually all philosophers were nobodies before they wrote, so this would apply to all of them. They only became "great names," after the fact, often after their own deaths.

Second, you clearly missed what Bakker is doing. These aren't Bakker's ideas he is trying to pontificate on. They very clearly contradict each other. If you know the sources of some arguments, he is very clearly just rewriting real philosophers' and theologians positions into his world, and he is writing it in the style these people often used. It is supposed to sound the like obscurantist monologues of the patristics and medieval thinkers.

For example, a lot of the "deep shit," passages are either quotes from Agenesis, the key philosopher of his world, or characters thinking about Agenesis. But what Bakker is doing her is serving up (mostly ancient) philosophy in the context of fantasy. This is done to allow him to tweak the world in ways that lead to interesting thought experiments, while introducing the concepts.

Kellhus pontificating on women is partly de Beauvoir. His exposition on how magic works if fantasy blended with Hegelian metaphysics. It isn't supposed to be some ground breaking pronouncement of wisdom, it is "what would these systems be like if the world has real evidence of the supernatural and damnation? What if it faced an extinction event?" Obviously dressed up for some sword and sorcery action.

That said, I absolutely agree that the prose needed to be edited down in many of these sections.

[Anonymous No.21820910]

>>21820806
wrong board, schizo

[Anonymous No.21820938]

>trusting /lit/ when fags here only like edgelord shit like blood meridian and tbons

[Anonymous No.21820948]

>>21820877
It must suck to be Bakker, then, to have access to all those ideas and the ability to comprehend them, only to have zero talent and ability when it comes to writing prose. Some people are just naturally good at it and Bakker isn't. Next.

[Anonymous No.21820957]

>>21806482
Noone says that they are bad. This cycle was my favorite for a long time. I'd gladly recommend it to you. But honestly you need to read more books. It's not THAT good, maybe Dunk & Egg are top tier though, but main ASOIAF is quite long and some scenes are getting boring and confusing pretty fast. HBO could have made a better TV show though, but it's too long; maybe 80s type animation for adult auditories would actually be better than live action.
>>21806529
Tolkien was ruined to me. His ideas soaked every single instance of fantasy. Orcs, elfs and dragons will never look new. They are just a given now. Fantasy is the genre to rule them all, yet it's most influential contribution is turned into a gold standard instead of just being appreciated. Don't forget that it is the point of fantasy to explore imaginary and creative, but most high fantasy is just hack's doing cashgrabs.

[Anonymous No.21820961]

EURON WILL WIN

[Anonymous No.21820983]

>>21815399
Bran is going to warg into Hodor and rape Meera

[Anonymous No.21821746]

>>21820957
I'm going to murder you and eat your face.

[Anonymous No.21822852]

>>21806482
The Asoiaf saga is genuinely good, with some fragments of great literature and engaging narrative. I would say that, as most genre fiction, is mostly pointless, but it is very fun and entertaining nonetheless, so who cares.